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deleted547339
Agree to disagree. And I've run plenty of traumas....
[2015-2016] EM Rank Order List Thread
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Agree to disagree. And I've run plenty of traumas....
I rotated at Lincoln and it was awesome but I saw more trauma and 3 times as many codes at a level 2 center in KS. If you want penetrating trauma LA and Chi are probably a better bet than NY. Though I think Brookdale probably gets some of the craziest penetrating trauma in the city.
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Aight even I'm getting sick of all this concern about seeing enough trauma and all this NYC program talk. There's 150 other programs outside of NYC that are as good and if not better lol...hello other people, curious what your thoughts are on those nonNYC programs 
lol?!
lol?!
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Aight even I'm getting sick of all this concern about seeing enough trauma and all this NYC program talk. There's 150 other programs outside of NYC that are as good and if not better lol...hello other people, curious what your thoughts are on those nonNYC programs
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Ohio State is my #1 for personal reasons. As mentioned, it's not a trauma heavy residency at all. You basically get one month of trauma at Grant (knife and gun club) and then whatever sporadic car accident/MI comes in for the rest of your residency.
Trauma seems fun but it's not my driving motive for residency so I don't think I'll feel like I'm missing a whole lot.
Trauma seems fun but it's not my driving motive for residency so I don't think I'll feel like I'm missing a whole lot.
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Are there programs like the one's you mentioned above that have name recognition in EM or does name recognition not matter at all? I figured patients don't have a choice in picking their EM doc but does a recognized name brand make a difference esp in regards to job opportunities?
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I look at it like this...look at all the current leaders in EM, whether that might be Chairman, Program Directors, Those who write text books/journal articles/involved heavily in healthcare reform...and what you will see is that the same residency programs that these people attended seem to be the same 10-15 all the time. While I know correlation doesn't mean causation, and while I firmly believe that any EM program in the U.S. Will train you to be a competent physician...but name recognition exists, it's alive and well. It also doesn't hurt that these top 15 programs are the same programs that you receive amazing training at, yes everyone is looking for something different...but you can't deny that certain programs (like Denver, Vandy, Indiana, Cinci, Ohio state, NW, cooks county, NYU, Hennepin, UCSF, UNC) don't afford you more prestigious options in the job market (if that's what you do choose and desire). life is always based on connections that you make, and not being a D|ck either doesn't hurt, where people are more likely to recommend you for positions after residency. It's the same for medical school, when interviewing for residency...you don't think attending Harvard, Yale, Darnouth, John Hopkins, etc didn't help you out in getting interviews and ultimately residency spots...if you don't think that exists in the real world than you are sipping the koolaid
TLDR: yes name recognition exists and is alive and well in life and in the EM world.
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There are some programs with sexy names that are really poor programs.
Im not a hater, so Im not saying names, but I would strongly suggest NOT picking a program off a name alone.
Im not a hater, so Im not saying names, but I would strongly suggest NOT picking a program off a name alone.
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Speaking of that, did anyone catch that Cook County has really poor peds exposure? Only 5k volume. They do go to UChicago and Northwestern once each for peds...
How much do you think this matters? There are a bunch of programs I really liked except for having poor peds exposure. Another had only 1 shift a month through the third year, which I don't imagine is enough to keep skills up. Low volume and acuity peds place too.
How much do you think this matters? There are a bunch of programs I really liked except for having poor peds exposure. Another had only 1 shift a month through the third year, which I don't imagine is enough to keep skills up. Low volume and acuity peds place too.
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I don't have many "name brand" programs on my ROL. When a family member recently asked me my current list, they replied that I had some "interesting" places on there, lol. There is pretty much one place with a very recognizable "brand name," and I think said family member would love for me to go there. They keep bringing up that one place every time I talk to them, haha. This has in no way affected my ranking of this program.
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There's a difference between name recognition and than EM name recognition. While nothing against Yale...it is an ivy school and therefore layman think that everything associated with Yale must be top notch, nope. There is not one perfect program, one might lack peds but have amazing everything else. One might lack trauma but you get huge pathology and also get to live in a sweet city. Or another might have amazing trauma but you see crap patient diversity. There is not one program without its flaws, not one. The question was, is there name recogition in the EM world, and the truth to that answer is an undeniable yes...the programs that I mentioned while they might not suit you and your desires per say, I would say by and large the huge majority of applicants would wish to attend one of those programs, and it doesn't negate the fact that the alumni of said programs are some of the most accomplished in the field of EM (drops mic )
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So just these 11 would be tier 1, safe to say others are all tier 2 and below...or do others still belong up there with this list?
Why not? it's so hard to find this information so I say put it out there. There's gotta be an element of taking "all EM programs are going to train you well" with a grain of salt
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I don't have many "name brand" programs on my ROL. When a family member recently asked me my current list, they replied that I had some "interesting" places on there, lol. There is pretty much one place with a very recognizable "brand name," and I think said family member would love for me to go there. They keep bringing up that one place every time I talk to them, haha. This has in no way affected my ranking of this program.
i've gotten this vibe from family...but also had the same experience with med school lol
Noticeable omissions include Highland, LA county, and BMC. This has been debated beyond belief. Beauty is ultimately in the eye of the beholder.
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deleted720339
I'd stay away from making lists of "top programs" or whatever, lol. And Ohio State, really? (sorry, couldn't resist)
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I forgot to add in the "etc" after those 11 programs lol. And yes beauty is in the eye of the beholder...but when a Victoria's secret model walks past you on the street in nothing but their new catalogued Lacey attire (if you were ever so lucky to have that happen to you)...10/10 I guarantee that you'd want to do unquestionable things lol...the same applies to certain programs as well.
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i understand this sentiment but i feel like whenever it's brought up it's made a mockery instead of just being factual
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deleted720339
Totally agree. This is why I reflexively tried to make a mockery of it, ha. (and nothing but love for HoosierdaddyO, btw).
My take away from this interview season where I've interviewed at nearly all "top name" places (or at least places my grandma recognizes) is that some places that are poo poo'ed are still VERY GOOD programs. I loved Hopkins and Brown...neither would likely make a "top EM list" on this site. Ultimately, I think it is really really cool that EM has so many really great programs...I don't know if the same can be said for most specialties.
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I'm totally offended
... I do think that EM is fortunate enough that where ever you train, you will be an amazing doctor...but most importantly youll have the opportunity to practice emergency medicine. I know for a fact that the other specialties don't have that going for them !!!
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deleted547339
I look at it like this...look at all the current leaders in EM, whether that might be Chairman, Program Directors, Those who write text books/journal articles/involved heavily in healthcare reform...and what you will see is that the same residency programs that these people attended seem to be the same 10-15 all the time. While I know correlation doesn't mean causation, and while I firmly believe that any EM program in the U.S. Will train you to be a competent physician...but name recognition exists, it's alive and well. It also doesn't hurt that these top 15 programs are the same programs that you receive amazing training at, yes everyone is looking for something different...but you can't deny that certain programs (like Denver, Vandy, Indiana, Cinci, Ohio state, NW, cooks county, NYU, Hennepin, UCSF, UNC) don't afford you more prestigious options in the job market (if that's what you do choose and desire). life is always based on connections that you make, and not being a D|ck either doesn't hurt, where people are more likely to recommend you for positions after residency. It's the same for medical school, when interviewing for residency...you don't think attending Harvard, Yale, Darnouth, John Hopkins, etc didn't help you out in getting interviews and ultimately residency spots...if you don't think that exists in the real world than you are sipping the koolaid
TLDR: yes name recognition exists and is alive and well in life and in the EM world.
I'll say that I've worked extensively with two attending from the same program listed above. They were the two most dangerous doctors I've ever worked with......
Mind you, that's an N of 2. Even still, they were terrible.
Just know that a good program will provide you with all the tools to train you to be a good EP, but showing up isn't enough.
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Sometimes you can't fix stupid...regardless of which program you attend lol.
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Meh I don't really care if I offend anyone so I'll name a couple.
Dartmouth and Yale.
Dartmouth = new program with very low volume, acuity, and diversity.
Yale = every 2-3 years a resident posts on here to warn people to stay away due to it being so malignant.
There really are programs you should avoid if at all possible.
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I interviewed at Yale, while def not my number 1, it's also def not my last ranked. I don't think I would categorize it as malignant, but it def has that ivory tower vibe to it that you would expect with a Yale name attached to it, not necessarily a bad thing if you like the prestige and having others around you to help stroke it
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deleted720339
Just curious if you have any first hand experience at these programs? Or are you warning people to avoid these programs if at all possible based on anonymous internet posters?
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Nope. All second hand info from multiple residents and attendings.
The Dartmouth information is readily available through a google search though.
30k visits per year in rural New Hampshire.
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deleted720339
Absolutely, Dartmouth is not a busy place and may not be for everyone.
Just curious since you don't have first hand experience at Yale if the second hand info from multiple residents and attendings was in person or from the internet? Not trying to give you a hard time...I interviewed there and know a senior resident there and I didn't get any sense of malignancy. Hopefully it is a thing of the past. Thanks!
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exactly, thanks for contributing
the point isn't to bash a program but to just make others aware so that we as applicants can do some more digging before we set our rank lists
Yale EM had a bunch of drama on here a few years ago. I don't know how much of that was factual but I personally know a former resident in a different program at Yale who had a very malignant experience involving several programs including EM. That was a couple years back, not sure what its like now but it struck me as a place with a lot of infighting between departments at the time.
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Any word on Emory's program?
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In regards to Yale. Through a friend connection I believe I got some honest and candid information from a recent graduate. They had nothing but praise for the program they loved it and said that there were tons of resources and support available for them to undertake interesting projects and have unique experiences. And the off service rotations are all very strong and useful.
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fwiw I'm planning to rank Dartmouth pretty highly. Had some of the same concerns about volume & acuity, but I felt better about it after the interview. Only 32k visits, but only 6 residents per class (versus plenty of other programs with 60-70k and 10-12 residents per class). They're also starting a telemedicine program for PGY3's where critical access hospitals will use you as "phone-a-friend" for their sickest patients. And 2 months trauma in Baltimore.
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deleted720339
If I remember correctly, PGY1/2 do a combination of 10s and 12s while PGY3/4 do 8's. Can't remember if they overlap.
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deleted720339
Awesome contribution!
to be fair that's sort of a waste to ask on this specific thread
more importantly...for those who care, what did y'all think of the program? Did you guys feel the residents were happy, 4 yrs justified?
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deleted720339
Probably a waste to ask on this specific thread...j/k, couldn't resist
I thought the residents were happy during interview day (unfortunately couldn't make it to the social event which was a journal club). 4 years justified or not is highly dependent on the individual +/- curriculum +/- intentions beyond residency. I didn't think there was anything innovative about their 4th year...just another year of cheap labor like most 4th years, IMO.
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The few people I know who went to Penn Med and went into EM AND wanted to stay in Philly ranked other local programs more highly. Penn EM being a part of Penn is thus very academic, which I know is a turnoff for some. Other than being easily recognizable for being a UPenn program, I don't think they're any better or worse than any other program.
The question was, is there name recogition in the EM world, and the truth to that answer is an undeniable yes...the programs that I mentioned while they might not suit you and your desires per say, I would say by and large the huge majority of applicants would wish to attend one of those programs, and it doesn't negate the fact that the alumni of said programs are some of the most accomplished in the field of EM (drops mic
When looking around in EM journals and texts, there is a good representation of a wide range of programs. I think the idea that the "big name" programs have produced some of the "most accomplished" in the field is more of a fact that those programs have been around for a long time. No one talks about Drexel, but that program (via MCP) has produced A LOT of big names: Bob McNamara (one of the core founders of AAEM, EM Chair at TUH), Jerris Hedges (Dean of U of HI, prev. Chair of EM @ OHSU), James Roberts (also helped establish EMRA, well known in the tox world, etc.), David Cone (past pres of NAEMSP), Steven J. Davidson (founding chair of Maimonides), etc. Though it has a had a fall from grace (hopefully will rebound), going there will still tie you in to a HUGE alumni network.
When it comes to getting jobs, if you're going for community work, a CMG isn't going to care where you trained as long as you can get board certified (assuming its a site that doesn't take FM or IM folks). For democratic groups, it will likely help to be at a program with big names in AAEM, but still the advantage is probably pretty small due to the number of graduates. For academics, its going to be variable and will probably be more highly influenced by what you do in residency and not necessarily the name of your program. Of course it will help if your program has some "big name" academic docs who can write a letter for you, but some of those big name docs are at smaller programs. The hyperfocus of SDN folks on some programs is really quite silly. Some of the programs cited are only "big name" on SDN (this is not to say that they are looked-down upon elsewhere).
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This may be petty but I'm reluctant to offer advice to someone whose first post ever is asking to help rank his 20 programs...it just might be that I'm tired and mad that the patriots lost...but also prolly not...all pettiness aside I rotated at 2 of those programs and if you want my personal and unbiased opinion of them, message me and I'll be sure to discuss facts about those two programs (hesitant to say which two aways I did just bc I feel like I'm becoming quite noticeable on this forum lol)
(hesitant to say which two aways I did just bc I feel like I'm becoming quite noticeable on this forum lol)
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Anyone thoughts about LSU NOLA? I read all the reviews and stuffs but still want to hear more. From the ppl who interviewed there, what do you think about this program. Secondly, what about western Michigan Kalamazoo program? Thanks.
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Has anyone heard any updates regarding Drexel? They said they were supposed to have a new PD and know their probation status by the end of January.
thanks for the input. I did hear that Jefferson recently hired a bunch of top faculty from Penn but not sure of the exact reasoning why they all jumped ship
also there is uncertainty with Drexel but IMO they also seemed like a strong program despite the probation.
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What are peoples' thoughts on UCLA/Oliveview vs UCSD? They pretty seemed similar to me and I'm trying to suss out which I will rank higher overall. Both are very academic programs in nice locations. I'd be curious to hear what others thoughts are.
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LA traffic(especially surrounding UCLA) is ten times worse than SD.
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Good luck to all this year.
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I'm jealous, that's my thought of UCSF
