Are there any adcoms on here who disagree with race-based affirmative action?

[mimelim]

There is supporting data on this for top undergrads, showing that the minorities admitted with lower test scores and hsGPA come in just as interested in the most competitive subjects but perform well below average on the curves and switch majors in droves. but none I know of for med school.

Edit: But I think mimelim pretty much cleared this up. The goal of admissions isn't always to get the best med students, it's sometimes to get ok med students who are more likely to serve certain groups.

The goal of admissions is to assemble the best medical school class possible. Best medical school class does NOT mean grabbing the top 150 students that you can. Every school is going to be slightly different depending on where they are and what their mission is. So, two points.

#1 For every school, every applicant has to not only have the potential to be a good doctor, but be at least somewhat likely to succeed in that endeavor. This means that you need to meet a certain minimum level of academic competency and you can't be delusional about your abilities or naive about the process or what a career is like. Schools have no business admitting people that don't fit this, which is why @Goro points out legacies, which do tend to be more dangerous from an admissions perspective than URMs. Are people admitted for quota purposes and to make classes look superficially more diverse? Absolutely. And it is a problem. But, it certainly is not the norm.

#2 "Colleges want the well-rounded class, not the well-rounded kid – The worst-kept secret of college admission is that colleges are looking for the well-rounded class, not the well-rounded kid. They want some real scholars for every department; some superb athletes; some great musicians and actors; a few rich kids whose parents can build a library wing; and some legacies to keep the alumni happy. The applicant who is attractive but not really special in any one category is going to have a much tougher time getting in."

The same holds true for medical school. Schools, especially your top schools are looking for students that have the potential to be future leaders in their field or to change public policy or take things beyond what a 'good' doctor will. And yes, this is where academic prowess fails. The people with the drive, the passion to make that kind of impact aren't always your best students and finding them can be challenging. We have a major problem in this country: poor access to healthcare and physicians. Better than other countries? Maybe. But, it is a problem. The solution is not to train the highest GPA/MCAT applicants that invariably come from very similar backgrounds.

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[speakingthetruth]

I don't understand why people on this forum always speak of URM's as if we are not as good or all came from the ghetto. I come from a very privileged background where both of my parents are immigrants and are both doctors. I live in an extremely affluent town and I have never had any real hardships in my life. Even though I have these privileges, I busted my ass just as hard or even harder than all of my other friends, I went to a top school, had all the EC's, amazing LOR's, great grades and mcat, and great interview skills. I have received 10 interviews so far and 4 acceptances to all great schools and have been offered scholarships. I'm not saying affirmative action isn't real but can't you just think for one second that maybe I got all these things because I DESERVED IT. I'm so sick and tired of people thinking and saying "oh its only because their a URM." I have urm friends who havent been accepted or offered interviews at places yet, even though they have just as good or better stats than me. It's not all about race. It's not all about numbers either. It's a holistic process and those that show all the great characteristics will get accepted.

kk sorry im done

 

[anbuitachi]

I don't understand why people on this forum always speak of URM's as if we are not as good or all came from the ghetto. I come from a very privileged background where both of my parents are immigrants and are both doctors. I live in an extremely affluent town and I have never had any real hardships in my life. Even though I have these privileges, I busted my ass just as hard or even harder than all of my other friends, I went to a top school, had all the EC's, amazing LOR's, great grades and mcat, and great interview skills. I have received 10 interviews so far and 4 acceptances to all great schools and have been offered scholarships. I'm not saying affirmative action isn't real but can't you just think for one second that maybe I got all these things because I DESERVED IT. I'm so sick and tired of people thinking and saying "oh its only because their a URM." I have urm friends who havent been accepted or offered interviews at places yet, even though they have just as good or better stats than me. It's not all about race. It's not all about numbers either. It's a holistic process and those that show all the great characteristics will get accepted.

kk sorry im done

That's why it should be changed. The current system is racist because they assume all black/Hispanic and other urm are disadvantaged. Urms who work hard end up feeling like how you feel. I would much rather the system be changed to one that looks at the economic background vs skin color.

 

[speakingthetruth]

That's why it should be changed. The current system is racist because they assume all black/Hispanic and other urm are disadvantaged. Urms who work hard end up feeling like how you feel. I would much rather the system be changed to one that looks at the economic background vs skin color.

But they don't assume I am disadvantaged. They can see what kind of life I come from. A couple of my interviewers have even commented on how I have had a cushy lifestyle.

 

[anbuitachi]

But they don't assume I am disadvantaged. They can see what kind of life I come from. A couple of my interviewers have even commented on how I have had a cushy lifestyle.

That's the problem. The system isn't based on $$$ currently. On paper what will make the school look 'good' is how many urm they accepted and how diverse it is. And urm currently is defined based on race.

 

[mimelim]

I don't understand why people on this forum always speak of URM's as if we are not as good or all came from the ghetto. I come from a very privileged background where both of my parents are immigrants and are both doctors. I live in an extremely affluent town and I have never had any real hardships in my life. Even though I have these privileges, I busted my ass just as hard or even harder than all of my other friends, I went to a top school, had all the EC's, amazing LOR's, great grades and mcat, and great interview skills. I have received 10 interviews so far and 4 acceptances to all great schools and have been offered scholarships. I'm not saying affirmative action isn't real but can't you just think for one second that maybe I got all these things because I DESERVED IT. I'm so sick and tired of people thinking and saying "oh its only because their a URM." I have urm friends who havent been accepted or offered interviews at places yet, even though they have just as good or better stats than me. It's not all about race. It's not all about numbers either. It's a holistic process and those that show all the great characteristics will get accepted.

kk sorry im done

I'll be blunt. With your background, status and entitlement, people have a very strong argument to get rid of affirmative action because it was not meant to help you. It was meant to help people that "came from the ghetto". It is slightly distressing that somehow you think that people are arguing whether or not affirmative action "is real".

 

[miszfifi820]

But they don't assume I am disadvantaged. They can see what kind of life I come from. A couple of my interviewers have even commented on how I have had a cushy lifestyle.

exactly

ppl on SDN assume that adcoms are dumb and arent knowledgeable enough to take that into account.

 

[mimelim]

But they don't assume I am disadvantaged. They can see what kind of life I come from. A couple of my interviewers have even commented on how I have had a cushy lifestyle.

It is incredibly naive to say that checking "URM" on applications hasn't helped. It is a prevalent part of every application and hiring process. Unless you are telling us that you decline to answer race/ethnicity questions on applications?

 

[miszfifi820]

I'll be blunt. With your background, status and entitlement, people have a very strong argument to get rid of affirmative action because it was not meant to help you. It was meant to help people that "came from the ghetto". It is slightly distressing that somehow you think that people are arguing whether or not affirmative action "is real".

i think what she is saying is that her URM status is a facotr but she did not get any extra points on her mcat or gpa. she attained the same national standard as every other ORM, so regardless of whether or not AA was eliminated , she would still most likely be holding acceptances and ppl need to stop assuming that her URM status gave her an acceptance.

atleast thats what i interpreted.

 

[allantois]

There have been numerous articles that Ivies trick the system by admitting first generation immigrants from Africa to meet their racial quota.

 

[miszfifi820]

That's why it should be changed. The current system is racist because they assume all black/Hispanic and other urm are disadvantaged. Urms who work hard end up feeling like how you feel. I would much rather the system be changed to one that looks at the economic background vs skin color.

in terms of the US, all blacks/Hispanics are disadvantaged in some way,regardless of SES... but that's another sociological discussion for another day and would be way off topic.

 

[mimelim]

i think what she is saying is that her URM status is a facotr but she did not get any extra points on her mcat or gpa. she attained the same national standard as every other ORM, so regardless of whether or not AA was eliminated , she would still most likely be holding acceptances and ppl need to stop assuming that her URM status gave her an acceptance.

atleast thats what i interpreted.

There are plenty of students that don't make it to medical school with 4.0s or 40s on the MCAT. To say that AA did not give an advantage in applications is incredibly naive. Nobody 'deserves' to be in medical school because they have a good GPA or MCAT.

The point is that they are unlikely to practice in an underserved area and don't fit the proposed purpose of AA in medical school admissions. The second point is that AA confers a very large advantage in applications. If someone doesn't understand that, I don't know what to tell you. This applicant seems to consider it a theory, as if there is potential doubt that AA even exists.

 

[miszfifi820]

There are plenty of students that don't make it to medical school with 4.0s or 40s on the MCAT. To say that AA did not give an advantage in applications is incredibly naive. Nobody 'deserves' to be in medical school because they have a good GPA or MCAT.

The point is that they are unlikely to practice in an underserved area and don't fit the proposed purpose of AA in medical school admissions. The second point is that AA confers a very large advantage in applications. If someone doesn't understand that, I don't know what to tell you. This applicant seems to consider it a theory, as if there is potential doubt that AA even exists.

no where did I see her say AA did not give an advantage...
i think youre missing what she's saying. when she said she 'deserves' it, it means that she worked hard to be competitive enough and she didnt just sit on her behind. she deserved it just as much as anyone else her class. To support that, she lists that she not only has a good GPA and MCAT, but had good EC, LORS , etc (i dont think I need to relist everything). She was a very good candidate as in she prepared the best she could just like all the ORM kids on SDN.

Yes, AA is an advantage but due the fact that she worked her butt off, she would be just as confident having an interview with a brick wall in between so the interviewer does not see her race if she had to.

edit: sorry i assumed this was a female who posted this
edit 2: I think @mimelim and @speakingthetruth are arguing 2 different points. i think @speakingthetruth is just venting her frustration at the assumption that she did not work hard for her spot like evreyone else cuz shes a URM

 

[raiderette]

There have been a lot of studies that show that URMs, regardless of their income growing up still end up serving underserved populations at higher rates than their white and Asian counterparts. I know it has been brought up in many other threads and I am just too busy right now to track down the study (though check any monthly URM thread). In contrast, those from economically disadvantaged incomes that are not URMs do not end up going back to the economically disadvantaged areas in significant enough numbers to make SES a bigger factor. Maybe now that they are tracking SES indicators there will be data down the line that supports looking more at SES. Until AA and Hispanic doctors abandon those populations and poor white kids flock to rural medicine then the adcoms will see the benefit of making the change.
And I have a hard time accepting that being a wealthy AA in this country is still an easy thing. My black friends are still treated with suspicion when we go out, even though they have the money and I am the scholarship student. This is not a post-racial America yet.

 

[miszfifi820]

There have been a lot of studies that show that URMs, regardless of their income growing up still end up serving underserved populations at higher rates than their white and Asian counterparts. I know it has been brought up in many other threads and I am just too busy right now to track down the study (though check any monthly URM thread). In contrast, those from economically disadvantaged incomes that are not URMs do not end up going back to the economically disadvantaged areas in significant enough numbers to make SES a bigger factor. Maybe now that they are tracking SES indicators there will be data down the line that supports looking more at SES. Until AA and Hispanic doctors abandon those populations and poor white kids flock to rural medicine then the adcoms will see the benefit of making the change.
And I have a hard time accepting that being a wealthy AA in this country is still an easy thing. My black friends are still treated with suspicion when we go out, even though they have the money and I am the scholarship student. This is not a post-racial America yet.

lol more like weekly URM thread

 

[mimelim]

no where did I see her say AA did not give an advantage...
i think youre missing what she's saying. when she said she 'deserves' it, it means that she worked hard to be competitive enough and she didnt just sit on her behind. she deserved it just as much as anyone else her class. To support that, she lists that she not only has a good GPA and MCAT, but had good EC, LORS , etc (i dont think I need to relist everything). She was a very good candidate as in she prepared the best she could just like all the ORM kids on SDN.

Yes, AA is an advantage but due the fact that she worked her butt off, she would be just as confident having an interview with a brick wall in between so the interviewer does not see her race if she had to.

edit: sorry i assumed this was a female who posted this
edit 2: I think @mimelim and @speakingthetruth are arguing 2 different points. i think @speakingthetruth is just venting her frustration at the assumption that she did not work hard for her spot like evreyone else cuz shes a URM

Everyone thinks that they have good ECs, LORs and are great interviewers. I'm glad that they think that they think that they did everything they could to take advantage of how they grew up. To say that saying, "I'm URM" didn't play a large roll in acceptances at schools is naive.

"I don't understand why people on this forum always speak of URM's as if we are not as good or all came from the ghetto. I come from a very privileged background where both of my parents are immigrants and are both doctors. I live in an extremely affluent town and I have never had any real hardships in my life. Even though I have these privileges, I busted my ass just as hard or even harder than all of my other friends, I went to a top school, had all the EC's, amazing LOR's, great grades and mcat, and great interview skills. I have received 10 interviews so far and 4 acceptances to all great schools and have been offered scholarships. I'm not saying affirmative action isn't real but can't you just think for one second that maybe I got all these things because I DESERVED IT. I'm so sick and tired of people thinking and saying "oh its only because their a URM." I have urm friends who havent been accepted or offered interviews at places yet, even though they have just as good or better stats than me. It's not all about race. It's not all about numbers either. It's a holistic process and those that show all the great characteristics will get accepted."

This post is incredibly negative and naive.

#1 SDN thinks that URMs come from the ghetto.
#2 I come from a "VERY privileged background."
#3 Both my parents are doctors.
#4 I live in an EXTREMELY affluent town.
#5 I have NEVER had any real hardships in my life.
#6 I went to a top school.
#7 I had all the EC's.
#8 Amazing LOR
#9 Great grades and MCAT
#10 Great interview skills
#11 I'm not saying AA doesn't exist
#12 I deserve admission to medical school

#1 - False, the primary argument of people complaining that AA should be eliminated is that most people that take advantage of it are like this poster.
#2-#6 - I have had more advantages in my life than 99% of applicants.
#7 - box checker
#8, #10 - Most people think that they have great LOR. People that tend to come across as this arrogant and entitled have a hard time hiding this in an interview.

To summarize? I don't think I'm really putting words into their mouth by saying, "I've had every single advantage in life and I have wanted for nothing, but that plus the fact that I am URM has little to do with my application success."

From my perspective? That is naive. Actually a little funny tbh.

 

[reapplicanthelpme2014]

There have been a lot of studies that show that URMs, regardless of their income growing up still end up serving underserved populations at higher rates than their white and Asian counterparts. I know it has been brought up in many other threads and I am just too busy right now to track down the study (though check any monthly URM thread). In contrast, those from economically disadvantaged incomes that are not URMs do not end up going back to the economically disadvantaged areas in significant enough numbers to make SES a bigger factor. Maybe now that they are tracking SES indicators there will be data down the line that supports looking more at SES. Until AA and Hispanic doctors abandon those populations and poor white kids flock to rural medicine then the adcoms will see the benefit of making the change.
And I have a hard time accepting that being a wealthy AA in this country is still an easy thing. My black friends are still treated with suspicion when we go out, even though they have the money and I am the scholarship student. This is not a post-racial America yet.

Exactly this. Having money does NOT eliminate racial struggles that Minorities face on a daily basis. I don't know why people assume that if a URM has money, they are no longer struggling. You can go to the best schools and live in the best neighborhoods, and still have patients not want to have you bc they "want a white doctor" ( I've witnessed it). You can drive a nice car and still get stopped because you're driving while black (with the assumption it's not your car). You can go into a nice store and still be followed more than your white friends. Money doesn't mean that racism ceases to exist, and that real life issue faced by Minorities solely because of the color of their skin disappears.

 

[emflem]

I disagree with it to some degree, and I'm frequently the one who scores URM applicants the lowest on my committee (everyone's scores of applicants are displayed during the meeting).

In what way are they displayed? Does everyone read every application and then grade them and each grader's score is next to the others?

When discussing applicants at the committee, is it as obvious as "That's a really good MCAT for a..." or does everyone keep the discussion at a holistic level?

 

[NickNaylor]

In what way are they displayed? Does everyone read every application and then grade them and each grader's score is next to the others?

When discussing applicants at the committee, is it as obvious as "That's a really good MCAT for a..." or does everyone keep the discussion at a holistic level?

Everyone scores the applicants before the meeting, and the scores are displayed on a big screen in the meeting room. It is expected that scores might change depending on the discussion. Most of the discussion is holistic but each committee member "presents" a few applicants. That presentation acts as a very quick overview of the applicant and their strengths and weaknesses. Then, if necessary, discussion occurs. In some cases the scores are either so high or low that a consensus is evident and little discussion occurs. In other cases there is significantly more discussion - usually if there's a wide range of scores or if the person is very close to our "cutoff" score.

 

[Dr.Zoidberg]

I don't understand why people on this forum always speak of URM's as if we are not as good or all came from the ghetto. I come from a very privileged background where both of my parents are immigrants and are both doctors. I live in an extremely affluent town and I have never had any real hardships in my life. Even though I have these privileges, I busted my ass just as hard or even harder than all of my other friends, I went to a top school, had all the EC's, amazing LOR's, great grades and mcat, and great interview skills. I have received 10 interviews so far and 4 acceptances to all great schools and have been offered scholarships. I'm not saying affirmative action isn't real but can't you just think for one second that maybe I got all these things because I DESERVED IT. I'm so sick and tired of people thinking and saying "oh its only because their a URM." I have urm friends who havent been accepted or offered interviews at places yet, even though they have just as good or better stats than me. It's not all about race. It's not all about numbers either. It's a holistic process and those that show all the great characteristics will get accepted.

kk sorry im done

I can understand your frustration, but please don't take this attitude outside of your most trusted friends and allies. It is because of people in your position that the privileged ORMs are upset about AA. Unless you have a 3.9/40 with research publications and LORs that basically call you a Mother Teresa/Charles Darwin hybrid, you shouldn't expect scholarships to medical school. Your scholarships are likely a result of your URM status, although the acceptances and interviews may very well be based on merit alone. I'm not trying to put you down. I'm asking that you appreciate that you've been given advantages on both sides of the process. If someone assumes you're not as good because you are a URM then you'll just have to prove them wrong, which seems like a small price to pay.

Btw, *they're (I had to. I mean, come on...)

Exactly this. Having money does NOT eliminate racial struggles that Minorities face on a daily basis. I don't know why people assume that if a URM has money, they are no longer struggling. You can go to the best schools and live in the best neighborhoods, and still have patients not want to have you bc they "want a white doctor" ( I've witnessed it). You can drive a nice car and still get stopped because you're driving while black (with the assumption it's not your car). You can go into a nice store and still be followed more than your white friends. Money doesn't mean that racism ceases to exist, and that real life issue faced by Minorities solely because of the color of their skin disappears.

If you look at my previous post you can see my opinion on how socioeconomic status factors into this. Racism still exists of course, but it's the mindset imparted on a person as they grow up that gives them the opportunity, and relative to that, these examples are somewhat trivial. In fact, if you're going to talk about biases as you described above, I think you could make a far stronger argument that short men, fat women, or generally ugly people face a larger stigma.

The idea is that when you come from the ghetto your bar is set basically on the ground. Success is not being a junky, or being the toughest guy on the corner. Then look at rural white areas where the past six generations of every family has dropped out of high school to be a farmer. The next "tier" would be normal public high school kids. You're focused on college, but everyone you know and look up to went to StateU/trade school, got a job, and lived a quiet/comfortable life. Finally, go to the affluent town with private preparatory high schools. Students are told they can do research while still in high school. They're told to start companies and clubs and to write dazzling college essays driven by the unique experiences they've been told to go after from day one. These are amazing things, and it's a shame it gets such a bad rep because I wish my high school strove to encourage students the way they do in prep high schools. Here I think URM status should be eliminated. Many prep schools will actually encourage URMs to take advantage of their admissions boost and coach them on how to do so. Still, there's no doubt that students from this background had a path paved for them, while students from the ghetto had to fight to stay along that path.

Forgot to add the most important part. These attitudes definitely stay with the student moving into college and beyond. There's far less of a support/guidance system involved for these students.

 

[anbuitachi]

Exactly this. Having money does NOT eliminate racial struggles that Minorities face on a daily basis. I don't know why people assume that if a URM has money, they are no longer struggling. You can go to the best schools and live in the best neighborhoods, and still have patients not want to have you bc they "want a white doctor" ( I've witnessed it). You can drive a nice car and still get stopped because you're driving while black (with the assumption it's not your car). You can go into a nice store and still be followed more than your white friends. Money doesn't mean that racism ceases to exist, and that real life issue faced by Minorities solely because of the color of their skin disappears.

No one assume that everyone is treated the same. The point is it shouldn't be a factor. If you are minority and grew up in a very affluent family you still experience some problems of course. But its not enough to add several pts to MCAT/GPA just BC of that. Don't forget that other minorities like Asians have plenty of their own problems as well but the process doesn't help them at all

 

[emflem]

Everyone scores the applicants before the meeting, and the scores are displayed on a big screen in the meeting room. It is expected that scores might change depending on the discussion. Most of the discussion is holistic but each committee member "presents" a few applicants. That presentation acts as a very quick overview of the applicant and their strengths and weaknesses. Then, if necessary, discussion occurs. In some cases the scores are either so high or low that a consensus is evident and little discussion occurs. In other cases there is significantly more discussion - usually if there's a wide range of scores or if the person is very close to our "cutoff" score.

Sorry, I was looking for insight on the affirmative action part of it. When the discussion about an applicant occurs, is there explicit talk about "these scores are really good for someone of X background"? Or does everyone keep that part unsaid and people just weight it according to their own internal system when they vote yea or nay?

Also, if I may, since there are other kinds of diversity (being a good artist or entrepreneur or whatever) that don't affect US News, does the committee spend time discussing those actual qualities? As in, "we haven't admitted many musicians this year, so we really should." Or is it more like, "she can devote time and energy to starting up a business, so she'll be able to thrive in med school"?

 

[mimelim]

Sorry, I was looking for insight on the affirmative action part of it. When the discussion about an applicant occurs, is there explicit talk about "these scores are really good for someone of X background"? Or does everyone keep that part unsaid and people just weight it according to their own internal system when they vote yea or nay?

Also, if I may, since there are other kinds of diversity (being a good artist or entrepreneur or whatever) that don't affect US News, does the committee spend time discussing those actual qualities? As in, "we haven't admitted many musicians this year, so we really should." Or is it more like, "she can devote time and energy to starting up a business, so she'll be able to thrive in med school"?

I have heard, "We should take them, we are short African Americans right now." and "It would kill two birds with one stone to take her." (applicant being black and a woman) And yes, it is a little disheartening to hear things like AA discussed like that.

The committees that I've been privy to will have someone present the applicant and will run along the lines of, "John Smith is a really good student out of U of Chicago, maintained a 3.8 in economics there. He has been active in X, Y and Z, but what really caught my eye about him was ABC. I think that this is a guy that we really want in our class."

 

[miszfifi820]

No one assume that everyone is treated the same. The point is it shouldn't be a factor. If you are minority and grew up in a very affluent family you still experience some problems of course. But its not enough to add several pts to MCAT/GPA just BC of that. Don't forget that other minorities like Asians have plenty of their own problems as well but the process doesn't help them at all

this.

its not enough? what do yu determine to be enough. there is no rubric or scale on the amount of racial oppression one might face. Do you want amcas to add a section to the primary saying - list every single negative encounter youve faced because of you race?

like what do you want ppl to do? sometimes racial oppression/discrimination is so covert that some people don't even realize they are being discriminated against.

edit: point blank - give adcoms a break. this is an attempt to fix a society to that has not favored the minority community for generations. it will not be perfect. there will be exceptions. there will be ppl who slip through the crack. there will be ppl who benefit from AA more than they need to. it happens... there is no fool proof method, especially when it comes to a profession that is so complex.

Im just waiting for everyone to become a part of an ADCOM and present their foolproof ideas that they preach on SDN and see how that works out.

 

[BigBang]

I don't understand why people on this forum always speak of URM's as if we are not as good or all came from the ghetto. I come from a very privileged background where both of my parents are immigrants and are both doctors. I live in an extremely affluent town and I have never had any real hardships in my life. Even though I have these privileges, I busted my ass just as hard or even harder than all of my other friends, I went to a top school, had all the EC's, amazing LOR's, great grades and mcat, and great interview skills. I have received 10 interviews so far and 4 acceptances to all great schools and have been offered scholarships. I'm not saying affirmative action isn't real but can't you just think for one second that maybe I got all these things because I DESERVED IT. I'm so sick and tired of people thinking and saying "oh its only because their a URM." I have urm friends who havent been accepted or offered interviews at places yet, even though they have just as good or better stats than me. It's not all about race. It's not all about numbers either. It's a holistic process and those that show all the great characteristics will get accepted.

kk sorry im done

I think it's interesting that this post justifying the argument of those who are against AA was posted by someone who created this account today...

 

[Dr.Zoidberg]

I think it's interesting that this post justifying the argument of those who are against AA was posted by someone who created this account today...

I'm inclined to believe this person isn't quite that clever. A more plausible explanation is that they truly feel this way, but didn't want to sully their actual account with what they knew to be an unpopular opinion.

 

[emflem]

"John Smith is a really good student out of U of Chicago, maintained a 3.8 in economics there. He has been active in X, Y and Z, but what really caught my eye about him was ABC. I think that this is a guy that we really want in our class."

Is ABC where being a recognized artist or starting and running a (real) company or being raised by a homeless mom would come in? That's sort of the hook that the applicant has to get in? Like, ABC is the thing that this applicant would really bring to this med school? And the X, Y and Z just show that this applicant has all the other stuff we typically see in successful med students? Sort of like that?

 

[mimelim]

Something like that .

 

[ASD2019]

I'd be interested to know how URMs fare in medical school, residencies, and their careers compared to their peers. Are we really doing anyone justice by admitting (sometimes) marginal applicants based on an accident of birth?

I know a URM girl who barely scraped 30 on the MCAT and had a ~3.6 GPA. She's interviewing at top programs now and already holds several acceptances. She pulled some stunningly bad behavior at some of her interviews and still got in to those schools (I witnessed one myself).

Explain to me, how is getting into a top 10 school with these numbers justice? Anyone else would be rejected right away.

Lol. I like how you even won't give her credit for her score. Maybe she actually got a 29 but AAMC went in and bumped her up a point since she is a URM.

I actually have an AA friend who also got a 30 on his mcat and currently holds multiple acceptances to some good schools. What most people see is that he is black and got in with a 30. But what they don't see is from all the kids he grew up with he is the only one to finish college. Actually 7 of his closest childhood friends are currently serving time. He finished a biochem degree with a 3.5 but did this while working full time in order to support not only himself but his family. There were actually times where he would have to pay his mom's rent. I think he is more deserving (for the lack of a better term) of a spot than most people with a 45/4.0.

The point is for some getting a 30 might be a complete failure, but for others it might take an enormous amount of a drive to get the same score. It isn't the raw score that gets them the acceptance. It is the drive and the journey they have taken to even have their application in front of an adcom that get them the acceptance.

 

[GaiusOctavius]

Anyone concerned with the white/asian population being underrepresented in professional sports like basketball and football?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Anyone concerned with the white/asian population being underrepresented in the professional sports like basketball and football?

Actually it's better to be underrepresented in football given the risk of developing CTE.

And I firmly believe that Jeremy Lin would have secured an NBA contract sooner if he were not Asian.

 

[ASD2019]

There have been numerous articles that Ivies trick the system by admitting first generation immigrants from Africa to meet their racial quota.

I don't see how this is tricking the system. A lot of them have killer stats (mainly because of their parents' cultural attitudes towards education), and most identify with the African American community. Even if they don't - their children will most certainly consider themselves AA. These children will be "privileged" and will have a tremendous opportunity to become productive members of their community and society as a whole.

 

[allantois]

I don't see how this is tricking the system. A lot of them have killer stats (mainly because of their parents' cultural attitudes towards education), and most identify with the African American community. Even if they don't - their children will most certainly consider themselves AA. These children will be "privileged" and will have a tremendous opportunity to become productive members of their community and society as a whole.

There's nothing wrong with admitting those students especially considering that their stats on the same level as white/Asian students. What I was saying is that schools resist admitting truly disadvantaged AAs, and their diversity statistics does not show the whole picture.

 

[ASD2019]

I think it's interesting that this post justifying the argument of those who are against AA was posted by someone who created this account today...

The username (speakingthetruth) just kills it! lol

 

[ASD2019]

Anyone concerned with the white/asian population being underrepresented in professional sports like basketball and football?

lol I think entire white/asian communities are suffering because of their underrepresentation in some professional sports.

 

[Narmerguy]

It's always amusing for people to tell me what I have and have not had to experience as a black male. If you think no one cares about my race because I'm middle class, guess again. When I'm walking down the street, no one knows if my dad is a doctor or if I even know my dad at all. All they know is, I'm black. In fact, it's typically the first thing anyone learns about me because it's the easiest thing for them to recognize. I cannot stop them from knowing that I am black. I am never not black. I have always been black. I can never change being black.

Why should a school want me? Because growing up black means growing up in the ghetto? Of course not. It's because growing up black means I've seen things most of your class won't see, I've been treated in ways that most of your class can't be treated, I've had to deal with things that most of your class have never dealt with, and because all of this gives me a perspective most in your class will not have. I'm part of the spice that makes your class interesting. Does that make me special? Sort of. There are all kinds of students who make the class interesting. Students who have lived in multiple countries, who speak multiple languages, who have previously worked incredible jobs, who have endured incredible hardship, who have experienced incredible life events. This is also the spice that makes my class interesting.

At the end of the day, schools have a choice. They can accept the highest GPA/MCAT applicants they can get their hands on. Or they can choose applicants who not only meet their academic requirements, but also enrich the pool of experiences in the class and become the types of colleagues they could see themselves working with. My race is but one of the things that identifies me, and the way in which all of my attributes and experiences meld together determines how interested a school will be in me. We are entitled to nothing.

 

[DoctorLacrosse]

lol I think entire white/asian communities are suffering because of their underrepresentation in some professional sports.

lmao exactly. that comparison was so apples to oranges I'm surprised anyone even responded.

 

[Goro]

No, unlike trolls on SDN, we're not prejudiced.

When the discussion about an applicant occurs, is there explicit talk about "these scores are really good for someone of X background"? Or does everyone keep that part unsaid and people just weight it according to their own internal system when they vote yea or nay?

If you're trying to be sarcastic, it doesn't travel well over the electrons.
Also, if I may, since there are other kinds of diversity (being a good artist or entrepreneur or whatever) that don't affect US News, does the committee spend time discussing those actual qualities? As in, "we haven't admitted many musicians this year, so we really should." Or is it more like, "she can devote time and energy to starting up a business, so she'll be able to thrive in med school"?[/QUOTE]

 

[miamiheatfan]

Sorry, I was looking for insight on the affirmative action part of it. When the discussion about an applicant occurs, is there explicit talk about "these scores are really good for someone of X background"? Or does everyone keep that part unsaid and people just weight it according to their own internal system when they vote yea or nay?

Also, if I may, since there are other kinds of diversity (being a good artist or entrepreneur or whatever) that don't affect US News, does the committee spend time discussing those actual qualities? As in, "we haven't admitted many musicians this year, so we really should." Or is it more like, "she can devote time and energy to starting up a business, so she'll be able to thrive in med school"?

First of all, saying "that score is good for a (insert whatever) person" is prejudiced and plain ridiculous. The process is HOLISTIC, and N ALWAYS EQUALS 1! There is no minimum threshold of GPA or MCAT as long as the school doesn't state it. Whether anyone likes it or not, medical schools are looking to produce doctors that serve the needs of the country; however that needs to be achieved, that will be achieved, point blank period. If people who have worked in medicine for 20+ years are saying this, than that has a lot more weight to me than what some "I'm God's gift to medicine" premed thinks. Also, believe it or not, there are ORM who have sub-30 MCATs and have successful cycles every single year. No one complains about that. This process is more than just numbers, if it was all about numbers, then NO ONE with an MCAT below 34 and GPA below 3.9 would get in because there are more than enough applicants to fill every medical school seat. This is why there are MISSION BASED SCHOOLS, schools that only want (insert state) residents, and so forth... If they wanted only people with 33+ MCATs they could do that. There are experiences that play an important role in this process. Anyways, what is a 36 MCAT if the applicant hasn't shown any desire for medicine?? Which is why every year you have number entitled applicants who bring nothing else to the table other than a few digits wondering what went wrong.

For the second part, once again, N=1. If a school originally wanted 3 sax players, but there are 5 sax players who are all amazing to a committee, then ALL 5 SAX PLAYERS WILL BE ACCEPTED. Each applicant is discussed HOLISTICALLY.

 

[jakeislove]

There have been numerous articles that Ivies trick the system by admitting first generation immigrants from Africa to meet their racial quota.

Diversity can also mean exposing a studentry to different cultures.

 

[aegistitan]

I don't understand why people on this forum always speak of URM's as if we are not as good or all came from the ghetto. I come from a very privileged background where both of my parents are immigrants and are both doctors. I live in an extremely affluent town and I have never had any real hardships in my life. Even though I have these privileges, I busted my ass just as hard or even harder than all of my other friends, I went to a top school, had all the EC's, amazing LOR's, great grades and mcat, and great interview skills. I have received 10 interviews so far and 4 acceptances to all great schools and have been offered scholarships. I'm not saying affirmative action isn't real but can't you just think for one second that maybe I got all these things because I DESERVED IT. I'm so sick and tired of people thinking and saying "oh its only because their a URM." I have urm friends who havent been accepted or offered interviews at places yet, even though they have just as good or better stats than me. It's not all about race. It's not all about numbers either. It's a holistic process and those that show all the great characteristics will get accepted.

kk sorry im done

No offense, but affirmative action was not made to help people like you. In regards to medical education, I would hope affirmative action would be used to aid those who are less privileged so those individuals, after graduation, can help the underprivileged communities they came from. You should take a read through this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/does-being-asian-hurt-your-chances.1111645/

 

[WingedOx]

Honestly, anyone with a 26 MCAT and 3.4 GPA likely has the academic ability to get through an LCME medical school just fine. It's not all just numbers and the people with the highest numbers aren't necessarily the best or smartest applicants.

I think the most honest bit of advice I got on this topic was way back in college. Me and my also-white premed roommate were looking at school stats...

Me: Man, I wish I was a minority.
Him: No, you don't
Me: hmm, yeah, good point.

 

[AspiringERMD]

Wow, a URM thread on SDN that hasn't turned into purely a wild slinging of insults? This is surely a sign of the apocalypse.

 

[anbuitachi]

this.

its not enough? what do yu determine to be enough. there is no rubric or scale on the amount of racial oppression one might face. Do you want amcas to add a section to the primary saying - list every single negative encounter youve faced because of you race?

like what do you want ppl to do? sometimes racial oppression/discrimination is so covert that some people don't even realize they are being discriminated against.

edit: point blank - give adcoms a break. this is an attempt to fix a society to that has not favored the minority community for generations. it will not be perfect. there will be exceptions. there will be ppl who slip through the crack. there will be ppl who benefit from AA more than they need to. it happens... there is no fool proof method, especially when it comes to a profession that is so complex.

Im just waiting for everyone to become a part of an ADCOM and present their foolproof ideas that they preach on SDN and see how that works out.

Uhh think about what you are saying. You are saying we should have affirmative action because we DONT know what hardships each race faces and how they stack up against each other?

In medicine we learn evidence based yet this process is the opposite. We are doing something because we don't know something??? We are just going to assume that certain races are more disadvantaged than others after controlling for economic status?? Is that how Society works now? If we can't measure racial suppression or if its so covert why are we using it over socioeconomic status??

 

[DoctorLacrosse]

Uhh think about what you are saying. You are saying we should have affirmative action because we DONT know what hardships each race faces and how they stack up against each other?

In medicine we learn evidence based yet this process is the opposite. We are doing something because we don't know something??? We are just going to assume that certain races are more disadvantaged than others after controlling for economic status?? Is that how Society works now? If we can't measure racial suppression or if its so covert why are we using it over socioeconomic status??

lol okay, here's the problem... I don't think you're really understanding the point of affirmative action in medical school admissions. many think it's to provide a leg up to minorities due to a "disadvantage" in life, but the truth is that is more of a side effect that everyone loves to focus on.

the real purpose is to admit people of certain races and backgrounds in hopes that they will later give back to those communities, as those communities are lacking in health care providers. America is a diverse place with many communities that are not receiving sufficient care. Now will every URM go back and help their cultural community? obviously not, but the belief is that they are significantly more likely than the rich ORM kid from the upper east side. picking strictly by socioeconomic status would not help fulfill this mission. that is the belief.



...why am I participating in a URM thread?

 

[anbuitachi]

lol okay, here's the problem... I don't think you're really understanding the point of affirmative action in medical school admissions. many think it's to provide a leg up to minorities due to a "disadvantage" in life, but the truth is that is more of a side effect that everyone loves to focus on.

the real purpose is to admit people of certain races and backgrounds in hopes that they will later give back to those communities, as those communities are lacking in health care providers. America is a diverse place with many communities that are not receiving sufficient care. Now will every URM go back and help their cultural community? obviously not, but the belief is that they are significantly more likely than the rich ORM kid from the upper east side. picking strictly by socioeconomic status would not help fulfill this mission. that is the belief.



...why am I participating in a URM thread?

No I get that . I was more referring to aa in general. Although whether discrimination should be allowed simply BC of something like that is debatable as well

 

[jakeislove]

That's the problem. The system isn't based on $$$ currently. On paper what will make the school look 'good' is how many urm they accepted and how diverse it is. And urm currently is defined based on race.

Gaming the system would be pretty simple if $$$ were a factor in admissions.

 

[miszfifi820]

Uhh think about what you are saying. You are saying we should have affirmative action because we DONT know what hardships each race faces and how they stack up against each other?

In medicine we learn evidence based yet this process is the opposite. We are doing something because we don't know something??? We are just going to assume that certain races are more disadvantaged than others after controlling for economic status?? Is that how Society works now? If we can't measure racial suppression or if its so covert why are we using it over socioeconomic status??

what? ummm..
you stated that race is 'not enough' and I was contesting that. What do you (as an individual) determine as enough? There is, without a doubt, a plethora of evidence and stats out there that support the fact that minorities, particularly african americans are much more disadvantaged than other races in the US, even when you control for SES. So to say that we dont know that information is naive.

I am not saying to assume that certain races are at a disadvantage, I am saying, we know that for a fact. Therefore, to say 'but its not enough' is saying that the past couple centuries of evidence (even with the racial issues that are occurring in this day and age) is not enough.
Therefore, it goes back to my question - what would you like us, adcoms, students, applicants to do? list every single trial and tribulation we've experienced to show that our race is still at a disadvantage? Even though we all know centuries of oppression will take more than a couple decades to fix?

 

[raiderette]

Uhh think about what you are saying. You are saying we should have affirmative action because we DONT know what hardships each race faces and how they stack up against each other?

In medicine we learn evidence based yet this process is the opposite. We are doing something because we don't know something??? We are just going to assume that certain races are more disadvantaged than others after controlling for economic status?? Is that how Society works now? If we can't measure racial suppression or if its so covert why are we using it over socioeconomic status??

What we know is that URMs are needed in underserved communities and that patient comfort with their physician is a factor in their health outcomes. Since 2003 we have had evidence that URMs serve in underserved communities. It isn't about the applicant to medical school, it is about the patient. the affirmative action isn't about righting a past wrong, but a current one in the US health population. Of course now I will probably get flamed for suggesting that URMs should only see doctors that share their race, and that is racism, but the fact remains at this time in the US, there is a need for doctors that understand the nuances in a patient culture.

 

[emflem]

Thanks @NickNaylor, @mimelim, @Goro, and everyone else who was willing to give us a glimpse behind the scenes. I see @johnnytest started a post asking adcoms to demystify the process, so I'm glad I'm not the only one wishing they'd make an episode of "How It's Made" on the deliberation part of the admissions process.