Information should be shared to inform prospective students. Honesty is the best policy.
California Northstate Accreditation Discussion
- Thread starter lakeboy
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If he didn't read SDN, he probably does now. 
I really wish I was going to AACP
I really wish I was going to AACP
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-_-
Prior to the dean's actual letter.
True. but it does not require copying and pasting the actual letter.
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Janette Kragen said:
NOPE. I still don't see it. I guess...different interpretations for different folks
Also, it does say, "Dear All".
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Source material is gold on these forums and allows us to make our own interpretations instead of relying on others for 2nd hand information.
Best practices on SDN involve posting source material as much and as often as legally possible, and when legality is questionable, post anonymously as you would when contacting a member of the media with privileged information.
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NOPE. I still don't see it. I guess...different interpretations for different folks
-.- look at the message just before the dean's letter
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can someone post this message? i want to read what you all are arguing about.
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I definitely agree that the primary source is more reliable. At the same time, what about the respect for private communication between the sender and recipient(s)? Would you want your private email messages to someone be published and analyzed on this forum?
Here you go:
.This message and any files or text attached to it are intended only for .
.the recipients named above, and contain information that may be confidential .
.or privileged. If you are not an intended recipient, you must not read, copy, use, .
.or disclose this communication. Please also notify the sender by replying to this .
.message, and then delete all copies of it from your system. Thank you..
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Sure, buddy. We all heard that one before.
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We're talking about levels of distribution here. When you send an email to, what... 350+ people (4 classes x 80 + waitlist), different standards apply than the dean emailing one or two people.
Even further, when the dean crosses the student/administrator boundary and communicates with a student, the dean has to assume that information can leak laterally. It's like children, don't say anything to your child that you wouldn't want repeated to other people.
Even further than that, these emails are in the public interest and you can make the argument the dean is a public figure. Documents are leaked all the time to the press, music tracks intended for internal use are leaked constantly, all these together justify the level of investigation we're elevating this to on SDN. Sure, it's just SDN, but at the same time, we helped take down HICP in 2004.
[/quote]Pfff...that's the generic notice tacked on to every email sent out. Every entity I know of has this. Besides, keywords in the above are, "MAY," "MUST," and "PLEASE." None of these words have legal bearing and they're simply asking nicely. It's like "shall" vs. "will."
Translation: This message is intended for joe, it MAY have some private shiz, so if you're not joe, we ask you not to read/disclose and let us know you got this and please delete the email. Please. I'll give you a cookie.
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Haha I didn't catch this gem the first time. I'd make a joke about it, but the lack of logic is kind of funny all by itself.
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LOL! Oh...so THAT message. I must have missed it because of the smaller font used in the e-mail. So, my "Dear All" statement still stands...the message is addressed to "ALL", so no worries here.
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I know...I don't see it because it's pretty much on every single email i ever read. Kind of like how I mentally block out internet ads that aren't caught by my ad blocker software.
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Not hiding anything.
Has anyone gotten or tried to get their deposit back?
Northstate says the 1st deposit of $1500 is nonrefundable but that the 2nd deposit of $5000 is refundable if you withdraw after the first day of class.
I skimmed through this thread and it seems that they shouldn't be able to make the $1500 nonrefundable even though they make it pretty clear that they will not refund it.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=916948
Northstate says the 1st deposit of $1500 is nonrefundable but that the 2nd deposit of $5000 is refundable if you withdraw after the first day of class.
I skimmed through this thread and it seems that they shouldn't be able to make the $1500 nonrefundable even though they make it pretty clear that they will not refund it.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=916948
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It is refudnable. By California law they can only keep 250 of the deposit. When I dropped my seat I asked for my 1,250 and they definitely did give that back
They will refund you a portion of the $1500, according to the CA law.
Me too. They sent me a check.
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If you guys want refunds you better hurry up, there's a possibility they might get WASC accreditation which exempts them from CA refund law as discussed in the other thread.
I was accepted a few days ago, not sure if I will be going.
Assuming I accept the offer, pay the fees, then before classes start decide to withdraw; what happens to the $5,000 seat commitment fee?
Is it true that if CNCP gets WASC accreditation the $5,000 seat commitment fee will NOT be refundable and If they don't get WASC accreditation the $5,000 fee is refundable?
Does anyone know when WASC will announce their decision?
Assuming I accept the offer, pay the fees, then before classes start decide to withdraw; what happens to the $5,000 seat commitment fee?
Is it true that if CNCP gets WASC accreditation the $5,000 seat commitment fee will NOT be refundable and If they don't get WASC accreditation the $5,000 fee is refundable?
Does anyone know when WASC will announce their decision?
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As stated above, the $5000 is refundable. According to what other people on this forum are saying, the supposedly non refundable $1500 will probably be the one that's non refundable if the school gets WASC accreditation.
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Before or after?
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Maybe I have missed it. Was the old dean fired? resigned? What happened to him? At least the old dean has some experiences with accreditation and the ACPE. There's nothing in this new dean's background that indicates he had any experiences with accreditation or the ACPE. I hope he's not one of those greedy academia who tries to cash in at the students' expense.
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Apparently the current dean went from associate dean/department chair at his old institution down to associate professor...
...at which point CNCP promptly snatched him up and promoted him as dean of the pharmacy school.
I'm still sifting through some emails which will be vetted and judiciously posted here within a few days, but my personal opinion is that the schools administrators needed a "yes man" in place.
Bottom line: you do not get rid of a founding dean and hire a recently "reclassed" associate professor as dean during a critical time of accreditation. It's just stupid and desperate.
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Which, for this school, isn't much of a milestone at all seeing as they failed to attain accreditation.
I still smell BS, kind of like how "leaving to spend more time with his family" actually means "fired" in Washington, DC.
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loool,
confittflyer...im loving ur posts and am agree with u
I think my ultimate goal is to get current CNCP students to take ownership of their school and ask the necessary questions/dissect the objective evidence.
My biggest pet peeve from our discussions in 2008 and 2009 and later on when the school was delayed moving into candidate status was that students would just blindly accept what the dean (or other authority) would say and effectively say "SEE, the dean said it, and so we won't fail. THE END."
hate hate hate it...people need to question authority, analyze the evidence themselves, and think like an conniving ass.hole.
confittflyer,
do you think the school will continue on with the TBL tradition? do u think their will be changes in the curriculum with the new dean? i am thinking the old dean left bc they found out TBL is not working like they hoped
do you think the school will continue on with the TBL tradition? do u think their will be changes in the curriculum with the new dean? i am thinking the old dean left bc they found out TBL is not working like they hoped
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I personally don't think TBL has anything to do with this discussion...I think it's something bigger, like structural (not the building, the organization). Like someone mentioned before, TBL has been implemented at other schools in different ways.
Without having read anything, my gut tells me there's:
a) a financial component involved, as in the fiscal health of the school may be an issue to ACPE
--> Unrelated, this is an issue with WASC and CCSF (City College San Francisco) right now, *that* school has been formally notified that they have one year to rectify their situation before they lose their accreditation. Similarly, WASC asked CCSF to come up with an exit plan for their students. What's scary is...it's the largest public school in California and one of the largest in the country. If it can happen to that place, it can happen to a tiny private school a few hours away IMO.
b) A training issue involved, as in the caliber of professors are not up to par with ACPE. My gut tells me this because of the high number of H1B visa sponsorships (public information) the school is involved with. My personal experience with professors from abroad has been generally poor, and it denotes that they had possible difficulty recruiting within the United States.
c) A management issue is involved, as in there were violations cited by the BPPE (mostly administrative) and then you have a dean "retiring" in the middle of a giant accreditation fracas....then hiring a dean who was essentially demoted down to associate professor at his old job before getting snatched up by CNCP.
--> If anyone remembers the first debate we had about CNCP when they opened, anyone remember how someone high up from UOP moved up to Rancho Cordova to help head the school and then somehow miraculously he went back to stockton after a few weeks/months?
This school has a history of leadership issues dating back to its opening. Someone please dig up those old threads, I'm too busy for that.
d) A structural issue is involved, as in this is a for-profit Delaware corporation whose shareholders/owners/investors are unknown to us. It takes millions and millions of dollars to open a school and you don't see any return on investment until your school hits something like 150+ students/yr. Think about it... do you think a school with 80 students x year 1, 160 students x year 2, 240 students x year 3, and 320 students x year 4 can cover its initial investment? Fat chance.
My gut tells me there's pressure from above to perform financially. Unfortunately, CNCP is privately held, we can't see its books. Objectively, this would explain why a) CNCP exceeded the traditional cap of 80 students one random year -- i think they had at least 90, b) why CNCP blatantly tried to hide its accreditation status AFTER final tuition bills were due, and c) why my sources tell me there's been pressure to increase CNCP's class sizes to 150 prematurely AND expand into opening a medical school before pharmacy has their act together.
Sorry my posts are so long but information on this is so short and hopefully my opinions/thoughts provide a different way of looking at it.
confittflyer,
i agree
u opened my eyes to it ....big thanks
many people going to this school are in their early 20's dying to become a pharmacist...i dont blame them ..... i was young and unexperienced one day hahhhah
i am not in the feild of prepharmacy/pharmacy and didnt know what acpe accreditation was till a few days ago....i knew nothing about the school when i went to the interview...lol
prettycat, are able you post the email here? it would be insightful see how the dean responds in pressure situations
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Yeah, that's what I thought too. The general consensus seems to convey that TBL is a viable learning tool, which is why more and more schools are adopting this method, but, it is just not working out at CNUCoP for various reasons (i.e. structure, planning, etc.).
[QUOTE=confettiflyer;
c) A management issue is involved, as in there were violations cited by the BPPE (mostly administrative) and then you have a dean "retiring" in the middle of a giant accreditation fracas....then hiring a dean who was essentially demoted down to associate professor at his old job before getting snatched up by CNCP.
Where did you find the information that the new Dean was demoted at his old job prior to assuming his position at CNCP? I thought he just left his position as associate dean at Oklahoma.
c) A management issue is involved, as in there were violations cited by the BPPE (mostly administrative) and then you have a dean "retiring" in the middle of a giant accreditation fracas....then hiring a dean who was essentially demoted down to associate professor at his old job before getting snatched up by CNCP.
Where did you find the information that the new Dean was demoted at his old job prior to assuming his position at CNCP? I thought he just left his position as associate dean at Oklahoma.
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I have a damn good trusted source that brought this to my attention. Additionally, his becoming an associate professor in his final 6 months at OU was NOT exclusive information to OU and this knowledge was already well known in academic circles.
An aside, do you guys see a theme here? ACPE accreditation, BPPE violations, federal lawsuit, information surrounding the dean's previous job...none of these are secret/private bits of information. They're out there if you look (and know where to look), just don't expect CNCP to voluntarily give this info up. Publication bias isn't just the realm of journal clubs.
Any known reasons for his being removed as dean at OU?
I wish we could get a hold of the which ACPE standards the school failed to meet. I keep emailing around but haven't heard anything back. The school seems set on keeping this information until class starts.
I wish we could get a hold of the which ACPE standards the school failed to meet. I keep emailing around but haven't heard anything back. The school seems set on keeping this information until class starts.
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I clarified with my source in academia and he may have been a full professor at the time he left. My apologies.
Point is there was still a potential demotion from associate dean.
Point is there was still a potential demotion from associate dean.
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Wtf they're seriously going forward with the medical school?!
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That's not necessarily a demotion. I will explain more later when I have time.
is that WTF in response to whom they chose for Dean of the medical school or some other reason? You might as well go ahead and start the CNUCOM accreditation thread so as to give the future CNU med students a heads up.
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Cool, so students can get federal loans for a ticket to this slow motion train wreck. Awesome.
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I wonder if the lack of regional accreditation was the problem at the last ACPE site visit? I think schools must have regional accreditation to get full accreditation from ACPE.
It seems as though the school has a lot more problems in addition to its lack of regional accreditation.
WASC's website says that it has "Candidate" status, although I believe it has not been updated yet. It still lists David Hawkins as the Dean.
http://wascsenior.org/apps/institut...m=10&lat=38.62913&lon=-121.17043&layers=FT0BT
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