California Northstate Accreditation Discussion

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
When the top people are leaving, you have to ask yourself, "what do they know that you do not know?"

If other faculty members start to leave too, then you know it is a sinking ship. Remember every pharmacy school must maintain a certain professor to student ratio. Like HICP, this school got greedy and accepted way too many students. That mistake will eventually lead to its downfall. But, you know what? The investors already got paid. They have already made a killing. It is time to cash out and just like the investors of HICP, they will walk away with millions.
Members don't see this ad.
 
Cliff notes (tried to write in chronological order):


  • MAY 2012
  • Lawsuit (Brazill v. CNCP) is filed in federal court alleging wrongful termination and claiming whistleblower status for alleged federal Title IV fund misappropriation. CNCP response is filed and suit is winding its way through court. (search PACER case 2-12-cv-01218-WBS-GGH)

    JUNE 2012
  • All fall 2008 schools attended the ACPE meeting in June.
  • CNCP emerged as the only school to fail to achieve full accreditation, candidate status is hereby continued. On-site visit to be scheduled in spring 2013.

    JULY 2012
  • All of the other schools quickly publicized their results by early July
  • Founding dean of CNCP vacates his position (retirement)
  • Questions arise and CNCP's new dean replies that they are bound by rule to be UNABLE to disclose the result of the June meeting until July 24
  • July 24 happens to be one day AFTER final tuition bills are due
  • CNCP attains WASC accreditation and become exempt from CA Education Code refund requirements. All tuition henceforth paid is now non-refundable.
  • Students, SDN, and inside faculty members discover ACPE posted their action and decision online
  • CNCP reverses course and reveals that they failed to achieve accreditation in a heavily PR-edited email to students/staff
  • It is revealed that, by ACPE rule, a school may only stay within pre-candidate + candidate for a total of 5 years. This means that CNCP has 11 months to attain full accreditation at the June 2013 meeting or shut down.
  • Associate dean vacates position
 
Last edited:
When the top people are leaving, you have to ask yourself, "what do they know that you do not know?"

If other faculty members start to leave too, then you know it is a sinking ship. Every pharmacy school must maintain a certain professor to student ratio. Like HICP, this school got greedy and accepted way too many students. That mistake will eventually lead to its downfall. But, you know what? The investors already got paid. They have already made a killing. It is time to cash out and just like the investors of HICP, they will walk away with millions.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
prettycat said:
thanks MBkid...i didnt get my job back:(

i just figured that the investors are developers and city officials...no wonder they are playing lame politics...no wondering the school is going down this path...im wondering how long they will keep the doors open..developers will never ever stay in one biz more than a decade( or afew years)....no wonder they are opening med school when the pharmacy school is up in the air....probably cuz of the economy they stopped building......but im sure in 5 years when construction comes back they will change biz....builders will never care if one of their biz fail...they will get bored and frustrated with this and will go back to construction.....
Click to expand...

That's unfortunate:mad:. If you're referring to when they'll close after getting full accreditation than the answer is "nill". As an investor and business person, no one will walk away from an establish and profitable business. They'll do their best to maximize profit which means to keep the establishment up and going as long as possible. :thumbup:
 
MBkidd said:
That's unfortunate:mad:. If you're referring to when they'll close after getting full accreditation than the answer is "nill". As an investor and business person, no want will walk away from an establish and profitable business. They'll do their best to maximize profit which means to keep the establishment up and going as long as possible. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

full accreditation? established and profitable? you're in the wrong thread. The USC thread is here.
 
MBkidd said:
As an investor and business person, no one will walk away from an establish and profitable business. They'll do their best to maximize profit which means to keep the establishment up and going as long as possible. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

This is not correct. At this point, the silent investors already made their money and CNCP reputation is tainted. It would be better for them to just walk away and start over again (or use that money to open a medical school).
 
BMBiology said:
When the top people are leaving, you have to ask yourself, "what do they know that you do not know?"

If other faculty members start to leave too, then you know it is a sinking ship. Remember every pharmacy school must maintain a certain professor to student ratio. Like HICP, this school got greedy and accepted way too many students. That mistake will eventually lead to its downfall. But, you know what? The investors already got paid. They have already made a killing. It is time to cash out and just like the investors of HICP, they will walk away with millions.
Click to expand...

But everyone was criticizing the school for it's lack of quality faculty, why would Martin's departure be a negative? He's the dean for academic affair and professor. I won't comment on his competency but just from taking a class from him, I'm not too shock that he leaves. His teaching skill was not to par (lots of mumbling during mini lectures, unreadable notes, and taking the first 20 minutes of every class to prepare for the class). If he can't even teach, why would he be suitable for the assistant dean of academic affairs position. Maybe this is a step toward improvement!
 
MBkidd said:
But everyone was criticizing the school for it's lack of quality faculty, why would Martin's departure be a negative? He's the dean for academic affair and professor. I won't comment on his competency but just from taking a class from him, I'm not too shock that he leaves. His teaching skill was not to par (lots of mumbling during mini lectures, unreadable notes, and taking the first 20 minutes of every class to prepare for the class). If he can't even teach, why would he be suitable for the assistant dean of academic affairs position. Maybe this is a step toward improvement!
Click to expand...

He's an associate dean and the dean also left. You don't change horse in the middle of the river and you certainly do not fire your dean and associate dean just 11 months before it is do or die for this college.

Look, I hate to point out the obvious. They know something and they are abandoning ship. It would be wise for you and your classmates to find out what they know.
 
BMBiology said:
This is not correct. At this point, the silent investors already made their money and CNCP reputation is tainted. It would be better for them to just walk away and start over again (or use that money to open a medical school).
Click to expand...

It is correct, in order to have a successful business (medical school) you'll need to have an at least reputable brand ( established pharmacy school) . This is just plain brand building. If the investors abandon the pharmacy school than they are biting themselves in the tail. Who would be crazy enough to go to a medical school this sort of record. These guys are a group of local business people, not wall street hedge funds people who walks away after making a killing.
 
BMBiology said:
He's an associate dean and the dean also left. You don't change horse in the middle of the river and you certainly do not fire your dean and associate dean just 11 months before it is do or die for this college..
Click to expand...

My reason for Martin's resignation has been stated above. As for Hawkin, his retirement was planned a year ahead. I remember hearing discussions of him leaving the school after the class of 2012 graduate at the beginning of the school year (early fall quarter).
 
MBkidd said:
It is correct, in order to have a successful business (medical school) you'll need to have an at least reputable brand ( established pharmacy school) . This is just plain brand building. If the investors abandon the pharmacy school than they are biting themselves in the tail. Who would be crazy enough to go to a medical school this sort of record. These guys are a group of local business people, not wall street hedge funds people who walks away after making a killing.
Click to expand...

They are silent investors. Nobody knows who are they. They can close down CNCP today and start a new school tomorrow with a new name and a new president and new vice president or they can just cash out and enjoy your money.

They don't care about you or your classmates. It certainly won't hurt their reputation because you don't know who they are. Clever, very clever.
 
MBkidd said:
My reason for Martin's resignation has been stated above. As for Hawkin, his retirement was planned a year ahead. I remember hearing discussions of him leaving the school after the class of 2012 graduate at the beginning of the school year (early fall quarter).
Click to expand...

You mean to tell me the dean was planning his retirement just before the ACPE made its decision? That's like general eisenhower planning his retirement just before D-day. Let me guess, he wanted to spend time with his family?
 
Ya know, I read back on the older CNCP threads and breezed through this one. I've noticed the posts from CNCP students show a very large disconnect in the understanding of how schools and school structures work.

It's like watching North Korean documentaries, there's this huge inherent trust in their own institution and a general unwillingness to consider another more logical viewpoint. In other words, shat just don't make sense.

Deans and associate deans are not prized for their lecturing skills, they're prized for their management and organizational skills.

It also doesn't matter why the dean left or whether he planned to do it 4 years ago...the fact is he left at the most crucial point in the accrediting process. No other dean from the fall 2008 bunch has retired and those schools got accreditation. That's a lot of institutional knowledge walking out the door. Same with your associate dean.

Furthermore, investors have most likely made their money already and sold their shares to a VC specializing in illiquid assets (or they're thinking about it now before the going gets really rough). The timeframe for profitability is simply not conducive to the expectations of a lot of investors, granted there may be a few out there.

What really invalidates some opinions on here is simply the cold calculus of a corporate entity. The board has a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders, not students...to put students before the investors would be a breach of duty and be subject to legal ramifications. The #1 goal is automatically to retain shareholder value...you can argue this means keeping the school open, but based on the actions of the school president and VP, one can conclude that increasing day-to-day cashflow has been a higher priority.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
1) Alvin Cheung and Norman Fong, president and VP respectively, are the alleged root causes of the problems of CNCP. It is alleged that they attempted (or succeeded, I don't know the requirements) to lower the minimum GPA requirements to 2.5 in order to obtain additional funds from the application process.

The school's minimum gpa requirement is 2.8/4.0 .

2) It is also alleged that Cheung and Fong are responsible for going over the ACPE student limit in prior years in order to capture additional revenue from student fees. It is alleged that they attempted to admit 150 students, almost double the standard opening size, prior to receiving accreditation.

Don't know the exact numbers but the class sizes range from 98-105. 150 is over the top, there's no way to put that many chairs and tables into the room. Again, every schools accepts more students than the class size in case of students not attending. Hence, there's nothing a school can really do (how do they take back their acceptance notices to students).

3) Supposedly, the financial pressures are extreme on this school. I am still in process of ascertaining the owners of the school due to secrecy laws afforded to the school by incorporating in Delaware. As I've stated before, it is damn near impossible to even be profitable with class sizes this small and costs/capital expenses associated with a startup school. 4 years and no return on investment could make anyone itchy.

100 students X 39k per student = 3.9 mil per class (x 3 classes)=> 11.7 mil per year
This pretty profitable to me!


5) CNCP was originally going to hold off on officially telling students about the lack of advancement to full accreditation until the day AFTER final tuition bills were due, denying students the ability to obtain a refund.

If you notice in the emails posted within this thread, CNCP did a full complete reversal of course when it was discovered that their ACPE status was in fact online and available for the world to see.

A little underhanded, I agree with this one!

6) Another source informed me that there is a pending investigation by a major newspaper in Northern California that is due on news stands by the end of summer. This may or may not come to fruition.

I don't know how you have all these sources but I'm interested to see this too.

7) There was an attempt to email current students of the ACPE status prior to the CNCP email going out but there was allegedly interference by administration that resulted in many students not receiving it. I cannot confirm this was intentional and it may have been technical issues/getting sent to spam.

Unless your source is Alving Cheung or Norman Fong, how did they even know this?!
 
I really don't believe this school is closing their doors. They offer a product that is in high demand. With this economy no one will turn down the possibility of a 6 figure job in 4 years when they are unemployed now with no future.

They aren't going to have any trouble filling their classes so why would they close their doors?
 
MBkid,

first of all builders are good estimators..im sure they calculated a thing or two before opening this place.they have the money, so if this place gets accreditated and brings the money .they will go the distance to keep the doors open. however if something happens ( dont get accreditated) they will shut it down as a heartbeat...as much as i want to think that builders are smart people they make risky biz....builders build....when the economy turns around all developers will go back to do redidential...if the school becomes established with revenue..they wont close it they will sale it...the bottem line is ....this can be some builders risky biz that he has to walk away from...if it works they wont close it..thats not what i meant..if the school dont get accreditated they will close...otherwise, ur right they have no problem getting students on board why closing it( they will sale it)
 
confettiflyer said:
uhm, well shat now 1/3 of the discussion is in this thread and the other 2/3 is back at the other thread.

i'm pretty sure it's safe to move the final half of that thread over here...if you have a vertical monitor it's easier to move threads on vBulletin using that.

i'll buy you a beer but not a vertical monitor, haha
Click to expand...



I fixed it. I moved all recent discussion of the accreditation issue to this new thread and posted a notice in the old thread directing people here.

Confetti - please edit any posts in this thread that direct people back to the old thread. And stop posting in the old thread. That wasn't helping! :smuggrin:

PharmB - I believe your beer is, in fact, mine now.

Carry on.
 
Wow, didn't know about all of these issues. Now I'm really glad that I wasn't accepted here and waited a year to get into my current school. This would have been a terrible position to be in, and I feel awful for my friends who are currently enrolled at CNCP.
 
30Percent said:
I really don't believe this school is closing their doors. They offer a product that is in high demand. With this economy no one will turn down the possibility of a 6 figure job in 4 years when they are unemployed now with no future.

They aren't going to have any trouble filling their classes so why would they close their doors?
Click to expand...

It's not about demand, it's about whether CNCP will meet or exceed APCE standards and be allowed to award degrees.

That's like saying, "oh, there such a high demand for methamphetamine...there's just no way they'll close."
 
if the school gets accreditated ...otherwise they will close in a heartbeat...not a big a deal for them...bankrupcy on one of the biz move on to the next...even for established biz they might get bored or think that they need more revenue and move on to the next, but if it becomes accreditated ..they will sale it if they dont like it..rather than closing it...but im sure the school at its current capacity does have revenue...all developers are estimators and project managers..they do good estimation before opening up the biz...the reason the school is not working is cuz investors brought the money but they probably arent around to manage the place...and managers dont care much..we do the work u get the money( so noone really cares if this place really make it)....developers can make good buildings...some cant establish good biz cuz they are not there to manage...i hope this school is not some developers risky biz( they do risky biz oftern)....im talking about when kmart is being repalced by a target..
 
Last edited:
Just joining this after hearing lots about it. I don't pretend to know everything, but I do know that other schools had their accredidation delayed, and they all made it. Also, for Martin, what kinda guy tells people he is leaving in 2 weeks? In academia, don't the usually let people know months ahead? Didn't he interview for the dean's job and not get it? Isn't he probably just bitter? After having him in class, I say who needs him? Maybe he saw the writing on the wall, and it wasn't bad for the school, it was bad for HIM, personally. Let's look ahead and move forward people.
 
Kajagoogoo said:
Just joining this after hearing lots about it. I don't pretend to know everything, but I do know that other schools had their accredidation delayed, and they all made it. Also, for Martin, what kinda guy tells people he is leaving in 2 weeks? In academia, don't the usually let people know months ahead? Didn't he interview for the dean's job and not get it? Isn't he probably just bitter? After having him in class, I say who needs him? Maybe he saw the writing on the wall, and it wasn't bad for the school, it was bad for HIM, personally. Let's look ahead and move forward people.
Click to expand...

Looks like the Dean finally decided to post. Welcome!
 
30Percent said:
I really don't believe this school is closing their doors. They offer a product that is in high demand. With this economy no one will turn down the possibility of a 6 figure job in 4 years when they are unemployed now with no future.

They aren't going to have any trouble filling their classes so why would they close their doors?
Click to expand...

There's a big difference between securing your future and placing a foolish gamble on it. You have to think prospectively and ask yourself if employers will even consider taking a graduate from this school when they have other options available. The market is saturated, there's plenty of pharmacists to choose from and I frankly would not even consider looking at a CV/resume from a CNCP (I guess it's "CNU" now? whatever...) graduate given the school's horrid track record and reputation. Sure, there's plenty of people who want to become pharmacists, and the demand is there - but you're overlooking the fact that this in no way secures a career in the field. So does placing a 4-year time and $200k+ debt gamble on a "possibility" still sound reasonable to you? I'd like to believe that any competent human being would turn down this "possibility" given the risks involved.
 
All4MyDaughter said:
I fixed it. I moved all recent discussion of the accreditation issue to this new thread and posted a notice in the old thread directing people here.

Confetti - please edit any posts in this thread that direct people back to the old thread. And stop posting in the old thread. That wasn't helping! :smuggrin:

PharmB - I believe your beer is, in fact, mine now.

Carry on.
Click to expand...

This is why I :love::love::love: you thiiiiiiiiis much.

I'll buy both of you a round, at least PharmB got the process started, haha.
 
confettiflyer said:
This is why I :love::love::love: you thiiiiiiiiis much.
Click to expand...

2mhafr7.jpg
 
Kajagoogoo said:
Just joining this after hearing lots about it. I don't pretend to know everything, but I do know that other schools had their accredidation delayed, and they all made it. Also, for Martin, what kinda guy tells people he is leaving in 2 weeks? In academia, don't the usually let people know months ahead? Didn't he interview for the dean's job and not get it? Isn't he probably just bitter? After having him in class, I say who needs him? Maybe he saw the writing on the wall, and it wasn't bad for the school, it was bad for HIM, personally. Let's look ahead and move forward people.
Click to expand...

Blood's in the water. The smart thing would be for UOP, Touro, and UCSF to start making offers in the back channels and snatch up CNCP faculty. That school has more to lose because of the accreditation issues and the quality and quantity of faculty will be looked at closely.

Besides, CA's at-will, and when a ship is sinking, two weeks is more than adequate.

We're all looking forward and ahead in this thread, even the pessimists. Fact is, CNCP lost two higher level faculty members in one month, the same month they failed to achieve full accreditation while every other school did. Time is not on their side.
 
MBkidd said:
The school's minimum gpa requirement is 2.8/4.0
Click to expand...
There was still alleged internal discussion and pressure from above to lower the GPA requirement. Looks like that attempt failed.

Don't know the exact numbers but the class sizes range from 98-105. 150 is over the top, there's no way to put that many chairs and tables into the room. Again, every schools accepts more students than the class size in case of students not attending. Hence, there's nothing a school can really do (how do they take back their acceptance notices to students).
Click to expand...

98-105 is still incredibly high for an opening school. I believe the ACPE recommendation is <80 from administrators I've talked to.

100 students X 39k per student = 3.9 mil per class (x 3 classes)=> 11.7 mil per year
This pretty profitable to me!
Click to expand...

Oh my dear friend, basic business: PROFIT = REVENUE - EXPENSES. Tell me what figure you're missing.

You're also forgetting that the school has been administratively open since 2007 and everything had to be in place prior to the first class starting. So that's year 1 of 0 revenue, year 2 = 1 class, year 2 = 2 classes paying, etc....


I don't know how you have all these sources but I'm interested to see this too.
Click to expand...

ah you don't know me very well then :smuggrin:

Unless your source is Alving Cheung or Norman Fong, how did they even know this?!
Click to expand...

As stated before, I will not discuss nor cite my sources going forward due to the sensitive nature of these discussions and to protect my sources. All I will reveal is that I have multiple sources inside and my relaying of information will include "alleged," "supposedly," and other operative words for legal purposes.
 
kajagoogoo,

can u name a few schools that were late for accreditation and made????? i really like to know hahhaha
 
how can u walk away from a profitable established biz?
easily,
when residential real state comes back( 4-5 more years) developers will make millions in a year doing that...why keeping the school open when u can go back to the old biz and make millions( this is not that big of a deal for multimillioner developers, and doesnt bring them that much revenue comapre to what they used to do.....making millions...as big as an investment it seems it really is not that big of a deal for them...im sure that have alotta money to keep this place running however they dont have the equipmetns( managments); these people are used to mulitmillion projects and they are expecting to collect millions in revenue....they gamble,,they play politics and if it didnt work out..who cares..on to the next project..
 
Last edited:
findingforever said:
There's a big difference between securing your future and placing a foolish gamble on it. You have to think prospectively and ask yourself if employers will even consider taking a graduate from this school when they have other options available. The market is saturated, there's plenty of pharmacists to choose from and I frankly would not even consider looking at a CV/resume from a CNCP (I guess it's "CNU" now? whatever...) graduate given the school's horrid track record and reputation. Sure, there's plenty of people who want to become pharmacists, and the demand is there - but you're overlooking the fact that this in no way secures a career in the field. So does placing a 4-year time and $200k+ debt gamble on a "possibility" still sound reasonable to you? I'd like to believe that any competent human being would turn down this "possibility" given the risks involved.
Click to expand...
I'm sure the more competitive students will look elsewhere. However, for the students with low GPAs and no acceptances to any other schools will be desperate. There are a lot of desperate students.
 
Prettycat, your command of the English language is horrendous.

I, for one, am glad you won't be attending CNU-COP; to have you represent the school - with your assault on any and all forms of English - would smear the school's reputation beyond repair.

Some would argue it already is beyond repair, but I will be graduating when the school is still in candidate status. As such, my plan of attack is to get a residency and have my credentials speak for itself from that point on.
 
can someone please tells me wha gpa consider low and noncompetitive for pharmacy school????
 
prettycat said:
can someone please tells me wha gpa consider low and noncompetitive for pharmacy school????
Click to expand...

My biggest question is how you were able to get past the applicant screens. It can be argued that CNU-COP's standards fall much shorter than other schools of pharmacy, but imagining you getting past the letter of intent is beyond my comprehension.
 
CNCPCO2013 said:
My biggest question is how you were able to get past the applicant screens. It can be argued that CNU-COP's standards fall much shorter than other schools of pharmacy, but imagining you getting past the letter of intent is beyond my comprehension.
Click to expand...

Perhaps a ghostwriter was used to get your letter of intent together?
 
CNCOP2013,

u have no idea what a strong application i have....thats exactlly why i wont be attending...i can do better things in life...better options..better schools......i dont care what u think or say..... and good luckk getting into the residency...where are u planning to go for that???usc:) nice hahhah
ur wrong...i wrote it myslef....every word of it....and it was the best ever...and i will be using the exact same letter to hopefully get to a real school next year:)i'll spend the time to write perfect when i have to....
exactlly school is already behind repair...why do u even care????loooooooooooooooool...with me or without me itll be closed next year hahhahhaha....ur a current student so u got it into this mess not me...ur upset of what u got urself into..and im speaking the truth..so ur taking it out on me....thats not fair.....:(getting into this school was so easy:)..i know i shouldnt go to this school...u didnt:) ill take the credit for that hahha
if u dont have a degree from an accreditated school...U CANT DO ANYTHING ....i might not be the perfect writer..but i know this much.....
 
Last edited:
prettycat said:
CNCOP2013,

u have no idea what a strong application i have....thats exactlly why i wont be attending...i can do better things in life...better options..better schools......i dont care what u think or say..... and good luckk getting into the residency...where are u planning to go for that???usc:) nice hahhah
ur wrong...i wrote it myslef....every word of it....and it was the best ever...and i will be using the exact same letter to hopefully get to a real school next year:)i'll spend the time to write perfect when i have to....
exactlly school is already behind repair...why do u even care????loooooooooooooooool...with me or without me itll be closed next year hahhahhaha....ur a current student so u got it into this mess not me...ur upset of what u got urself into..and im speaking the truth..so ur taking it out on me....thats not fair.....:(getting into this school was so easy:)..i know i shouldnt go to this school...u didnt:) ill take the credit for that hahha
if u dont have a degree from an accreditated school...U CANT DO ANYTHING ....i might not be the perfect writer..but i know this much.....
Click to expand...


I obviously have no business in this but as a current pharmacy student, I do hope that you write better and are able to articulate yourself much more eloquently when it matters, such as speaking to patients. If you are unable to, I would be very afraid to have you represent our profession in any kind of settings even ones that do not require patient interaction.

Just a thought.
 
I'm just slightly irked that all this is happening and I'm STILL on the waitlist. HAHAHAHA. Oh well...not going to attend this school anyway with this train wreck and all.
 
30Percent said:
I'm sure the more competitive students will look elsewhere. However, for the students with low GPAs and no acceptances to any other schools will be desperate. There are a lot of desperate students.
Click to expand...

I see your point. But what I was getting at was that potential pharmacy students should not be settling for sub-par education just to become pharmacists. But I guess some people are just that desperate (and stupid, I might add) that they'll risk it all. Even then, the school will now have built a reputation as one enrolling unqualified, desperate students. In the end, it's not a good outlook for graduates of this school.
 
CNCPCO2013 said:
Some would argue it already is beyond repair, but I will be graduating when the school is still in candidate status. As such, my plan of attack is to get a residency and have my credentials speak for itself from that point on.
Click to expand...

Good plan, school becomes less and less important the further you get out. However, you will probably get more, "Oh, how was that?" questions if school ever did come up.

What were the c/o 2012 match statistics for your school?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

N
California Northstate University College of Pharmacy C/O 2027
Replies
2
Views
176
Dred Pirate
Dred Pirate
C
Discussion on Charities
Replies
1
Views
401
owlegrad
owlegrad
mentos
California is a strange place
Replies
25
Views
2K
owlegrad
owlegrad
Dred Pirate
California licensing requirements - 15+ out of school
Replies
26
Views
1K
njac
njac
B
  • Locked
can you work in california as a pharmacist with a dwi conviction?
Replies
31
Views
2K
gyngyn
gyngyn
Top