California Northstate Accreditation Discussion

[lakeboy]

I wonder if the lack of regional accreditation was the problem at the last ACPE site visit? I think schools must have regional accreditation to get full accreditation from ACPE.

I recall a CNCP student saying that the previous Dean had sent out an e-mail stating that they received WASC accreditation. more likely part of the spin they knew they were not going to get ACPE so hold the good news untill after the BAD. I agree that this is a train wreck waiting to happen!

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[confettiflyer]

I wonder if the lack of regional accreditation was the problem at the last ACPE site visit? I think schools must have regional accreditation to get full accreditation from ACPE.

based on my reading of the new dean's email, i think the regional accreditation was only a very small part of the overall problems.

the dean's email refers to issues that seem more "in depth" than a simple yes/no on regional accred.

 

[474671]

That's not necessarily a demotion. I will explain more later when I have time.

Is that because he could have chosen to return to the classroom? I know someone who was director of an academic program at a school and had a lot of family issues happen, and hired his replacement and went back to being a professor.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Is that because he could have chosen to return to the classroom? I know someone who was director of an academic program at a school and had a lot of family issues happen, and hired his replacement and went back to being a professor.

Not commenting on this situation in particular, but the "assistant dean/associate dean/dean" hierarchy is separate from the assistant prof/associate prof/professor" hierarchy. Usually the deanships are specific positions, and if you aren't doing that job, you aren't a dean anymore (except under certain circumstances).

For example, one of my professors was "Professor of Clinical & Administrative Sciences" and "Associate Dean for Experiential Education." He retired, so he is no longer the Associate Dean, but he still retains his rank as Professor (he is teaching part-time).

 

[laimyours]

I graduated from Touro NY this year and I thought I would share how we received our news on accreditation. It seems there is a lot of confusion on if, and when, this information is released and, NAPLEX pass rates.
Our class graduated on May 17th, our degree date wasn't until June 26th.
On June 28th I received an e-mail from our dean stating that we were fully accredited, with this information pasted into the email:


II. Accreditation Action

Following discussion of the program, it was the decision of the Board that Full accreditation status be granted to the Doctor of Pharmacy program. The professional program of the College and its accreditation status will be designated on ACPE's web site, www.acpe-accredit.org. Notice of the accreditation status of the program will also appear in the ACPE Report of the Proceedings, to be distributed during July 2012.

ACPE's website was not yet updated with this information when we received the email on June 28th. That happened sometime later. (Early July?)

A majority of the class had not taken the NAPLEX. In fact, many did not even have an ATT and, those who did, had not yet scheduled exams. So this rumor of NAPLEX pass rates affecting accreditation is completely false.

Another thing, we also had TBL. Why would TBL affect accreditation? When ACPE would come for their onsite visits, they were usually excited and supportive of new learning techniques, Touro's 2+2 program, and also our public health focus. (which many of us questioned, some of the rotations were pointless and totally not pharmacy related!). Anyway, the point I was making with that was, just because the school is trying a new approach to pharmacy education, that wouldn't cause it to not receive full accreditation.

 

[Consultation]

Cool, so students can get federal loans for a ticket to this slow motion train wreck. Awesome.

Sorry to ask this again.... But does the WASC accreditation mean that we cannot get any if our deposits back? Are there any exceptions to this?

Also, what would you do if you were in our shoes? Would you still attend this school this August knowing that it might not get accredited next year?
Please advise,
Thanks

 

[confettiflyer]

Sorry to ask this again.... But does the WASC accreditation mean that we cannot get any if our deposits back? Are there any exceptions to this?

Correct, CNCP is no longer subject to specific CA Ed. Code requirements by virtue of its WASC accreditation. One of those codes mandated refunds less $250.

Also, what would you do if you were in our shoes? Would you still attend this school this August knowing that it might not get accredited next year?
Please advise,
Thanks

I once was a desperate pre-pharm, so I know how it feels. Knowing what I know about this program, I would probably do the following:

If I had absolutely no other acceptances and my application was weak... I would attend the program. Why? Because they need to get accredited by 2013 or the show's over. With federal loans in play, the cost to play the game is one year of tuition. If I'm jettisoned in 2013, I'd start over at another school or on another path.

I have a deep understanding of the IBR/PSLF program and I know that my loan balance size has no bearing on what my total, bottom line "out of pocket" payments are assuming I finish 10 years in this program. Therefore the one extra "lost year" of tuition isn't an issue. I won't discuss IBR/PSLF here because this is getting long.​

If I had absolutely no other acceptances but I'm a relatively strong candidate... I would actually defer. Confused? I would put in another year of work experience and take classes...either formally and earn a master's or informally and help raise my average GPA. If I'm right on the fence with getting into a good program, then it's worth pushing yourself over the threshold. Or maybe you don't interview well or you didn't select a good swath of schools, whatever it is...fix it and reapply.

Even better if you're on the waitlist somewhere.

If I had other options... Hell yeah I'd leave this school in the dust. Anyone who turns down another accredited or candidate program for this school is a fool. Usually, I'll allow "personal" exceptions like family or local ties...screw that in this case.

 

[Consultation]

Correct, CNCP is no longer subject to specific CA Ed. Code requirements by virtue of its WASC accreditation. One of those codes mandated refunds less $250.



I once was a desperate pre-pharm, so I know how it feels. Knowing what I know about this program, I would probably do the following:

If I had absolutely no other acceptances and my application was weak... I would attend the program. Why? Because they need to get accredited by 2013 or the show's over. With federal loans in play, the cost to play the game is one year of tuition. If I'm jettisoned in 2013, I'd start over at another school or on another path.

I have a deep understanding of the IBR/PSLF program and I know that my loan balance size has no bearing on what my total, bottom line "out of pocket" payments are assuming I finish 10 years in this program. Therefore the one extra "lost year" of tuition isn't an issue. I won't discuss IBR/PSLF here because this is getting long.​

If I had absolutely no other acceptances but I'm a relatively strong candidate... I would actually defer. Confused? I would put in another year of work experience and take classes...either formally and earn a master's or informally and help raise my average GPA. If I'm right on the fence with getting into a good program, then it's worth pushing yourself over the threshold. Or maybe you don't interview well or you didn't select a good swath of schools, whatever it is...fix it and reapply.

Even better if you're on the waitlist somewhere.

If I had other options... Hell yeah I'd leave this school in the dust. Anyone who turns down another accredited or candidate program for this school is a fool. Usually, I'll allow "personal" exceptions like family or local ties...screw that in this case.

Thank You kindly for your insight! Your posts are very informative.

 

[hondacivic]

I once was a desperate pre-pharm, so I know how it feels. Knowing what I know about this program, I would probably do the following:

If I had absolutely no other acceptances and my application was weak... I would attend the program. Why? Because they need to get accredited by 2013 or the show's over. With federal loans in play, the cost to play the game is one year of tuition. If I'm jettisoned in 2013, I'd start over at another school or on another path.

I too can relate. I was once a desperate pre-pharm, but I still wouldn't go to cncp. Even if they become accredited next year, they can lose accreditation later on. I don't mean to be a pessimist, my friend is who brought this to my attention.

 

[confettiflyer]

I too can relate. I was once a desperate pre-pharm, but I still wouldn't go to cncp. Even if they become accredited next year, they can lose accreditation later on. I don't mean to be a pessimist, my friend is who brought this to my attention.

anyone remember what the accreditation blocks were? 3, 4, 5 years? I'm just saying, the cost to gamble is one year of federal loan money, if they get accredited in 2013 and lose it in 2016...who cares, you'll probably have graduated by then and sat for naplex.

kind of like how the class of 2012 is safe, they graduated from a candidate school and have the right to sit for naplex.

now...finding a meaningful job knowing that you came from a school like that, different story.

i'm the biggest pessimist of all on these boards about this school, but objectively the gamble could be worth it depending on the circumstances.

 

[prettycat]

I think northstate should give students counseling with physchologists ...itll be hard for students to come in fall knowing that the school wont be around next year...looool..hahhahah....emotional aspect of it is the hardest...i wont be able to deal with that
whoever is going...i advise gettin a good therapist long way....lol

 

[prettycat]

confettiflyerr,
how about me? should i go?im not a desperate prepharm...lol
u should start charging peoplelooool

 

[xXRAYNEXx]

Only go here as the absolute last resor to be t, but still, I don't recommend it to anybody for any reason. Too many problems during and after graduation. Way too risky.

FYI, ur fed loans can be discharged if the school closes down before u get to finish the program. to be eligible, u can't go to another comparable program tho. So u may only waste time and opportunity cost of making money. Consider this if this school is ur only hope of becoming a pharmacist.

source: http://studentaid.ed.gov/PORTALSWebApp/students/english/discharges.jsp

 

[prettycat]

there are no fed loans for first year...how about private loans?

 

[hondacivic]

anyone remember what the accreditation blocks were? 3, 4, 5 years? I'm just saying, the cost to gamble is one year of federal loan money, if they get accredited in 2013 and lose it in 2016...who cares, you'll probably have graduated by then and sat for naplex.

kind of like how the class of 2012 is safe, they graduated from a candidate school and have the right to sit for naplex.

Fair point.

now...finding a meaningful job knowing that you came from a school like that, different story.

i'm the biggest pessimist of all on these boards about this school, but objectively the gamble could be worth it depending on the circumstances.

I could be described as a pessimist, but the difference is I am a big worrywart. Aside from accreditation, I would worry also about the consequences of coming from "that type of school." So the gamble would not be worth it, in my honest opinion.

there are no fed loans for first year...how about private loans?

I do not know much about private loans or their policies, but strong intuition tells me it's very unlikely for them to get discharged. Those big company loan sharks will want as much of their money back, if not more. They are likely to take advantage of the situation and keep you on the hook. Regardless, you should do more research (read loan policies very thoroughly) before deciding to follow through.

 

[PharmtoCS]

Fair point.



I could be described as a pessimist, but the difference is I am a big worrywart. Aside from accreditation, I would worry also about the consequences of coming from "that type of school." So the gamble would not be worth it, in my honest opinion.



I do not know much about private loans or their policies, but strong intuition tells me it's very unlikely for them to get discharged. Those big company loan sharks will want as much of their money back, if not more. They are likely to take advantage of the situation and keep you on the hook. Regardless, you should do more research (read loan policies very thoroughly) before deciding to follow through.

Given the factors mentioned by confettiflyer and hondacivic, I think that it's better for everyone regardless of application strength to take a year off to gain experience, raise your GPA, and/or study for the PCAT to make you more competitive for more established schools. Even if the school does become accredited, your chances for employment and residency may be hurt drastically due to the reputation of this school. It is up to you to decide, but be sure that you won't regret your decision in the future.

 

[confettiflyer]

Yeah I don't refute any of the counterpoints presented, I agree with many of them. There's just different circumstances and outcomes to consider.

And if it's true there are no federal loans this year, then it's not worth it. Private loan terms are pretty onerous compared to federal loans.

 

[lookitspaula]

so the associate dean of the school has just resigned. I am actually a current student and after reading this thread and looking at those leaving the school. I am freaking out a little about having to take out 45,000 dollars in private loans.

 

[Byebyebeautyful]

so the associate dean of the school has just resigned. I am actually a current student and after reading this thread and looking at those leaving the school. I am freaking out a little about having to take out 45,000 dollars in private loans.

Why did he resign?

 

[prettycat]

why? how do u know he resigned?who else is leaving?

 

[lookitspaula]

We received an email for classes 2012, 13 and 14. He said turned in his resignation, but did not give an explanation as to why.

 

[297point1]

Man, I am late to the party on this one...where was this thread hidden?

Anyways, a few thoughts:
- While it is true that there has never been a situation exactly like this before with ACPE, there was another 'new' program that had their advancement to full accreditation denied on their first attempt: the University of Findlay. (Yeah, I hadn't heard of the school either until a few years ago. It's a 0-6 in Ohio.) They had a high-stakes ACPE decision in 2011, which was success. I wondered what was going to happen if the decision hadn't gone in their favor. I don't think this even blipped anywhere on the SDN boards.
- All new programs have to develop contingency plans in case the program fails- it is part of the precandidate application. Generic language about shutting the program down in an organized manner, keeping the school adequately staffed until classes end, and working to place students into other regional programs. It all looks impressive...but good luck executing it when the money runs out, the faculty flee, and the frivolous lawsuits are filed.
- From an accepted student's standpoint, the WASC decision, while favorable, could not have come at a worse time, as it relates to deposit refunds on withdrawals. The Class of 2016 got screwed on this.

Confetti- excellent work as always.

Ladies and gentlemen: where there is smoke, there is fire. Why are you deciding to enter a building that has smoke pouring out of it?

 

[lakeboy]

why? how do u know he resigned?who else is leaving?

It is not good to be the last rat on a SINKING SHIP!

I'm bored I'm bored on a sinking ship
I've lost a lot of time, lot of time on it
I will watch as it all goes down It won't get far
I will sink I will sink as I weigh a tonne
I will wait I will wait but it wont be long
I could give it everything I've got but it would all be for not!​

The Associate Dean has been in education a long time those are the guys to watch as they know how this will play out and they will not piss a twenty-plus year career away. ​

 

[Pharmous]

.

 

[UCSD2012]

We received an email for classes 2012, 13 and 14. He said turned in his resignation, but did not give an explanation as to why.

Was it John Martin, formerly of University of Minnesota?

Can you post the email?

 

[prettycat]

ya, it was john martin
its getting worse by min..whats next?

 

[Byebyebeautyful]

Wow, this sounds like a train wreck school. I think lakeboy mentioned earlier that ACPE saw a lack of executive leadership at CNCP?

This must be part of that war of investor faculty vs non-investor faculty?

 

[Banesso]

ya, it was john martin
its getting worse by min..whats next?

lol that's the guy i interviewed with...
and he didn't seem too happy when i asked him about the new dean and the med school.

 

[prettycat]

looool banesso,
the guy that interviewed me was unhappy the entire time...however i was able to get him to laugh at my jokes a few times
i asked about residency..didnt know..first year was the furthest i was gona get...one year program..woho..looool i gave him a speech on how badly i wanted to attend this school, and he was looking at me like i was crazy...no wonder....

 

[ddcali]

.

 

[WhiteSnows]

DON"T EVER GO TO THE SCHOOL WITHOUT ACCREDITATION.

You are risking your life and money with it.

 

[confettiflyer]

This is unraveling faster than my pants on a Friday night.

 

[Sparda29]

Holy **** I dodged a bullet on this one. I remember getting some mail from this school inviting me to apply around the same time Touro sent out its applications.

 

[prettycat]

they have one open faculty position...im wondering who is leaving next...

 

[Pharmacy Kid]

DON"T EVER GO TO THE SCHOOL WITHOUT ACCREDITATION.

You are risking your life and money with it.

Yes, I would NEVER ever go to a school that hasn't been accredited.

 

[chamonix2007]

I am one of class 2012 and there was no e-mail sent to us as you are claiming it ! Please don't start spreading rumors. Thank You !!!

 

[prettycat]

email wasnt sent to class of 2012..only 2013,2014,and 2015...

 

[pig rx]

We received an email for classes 2012, 13 and 14. He said turned in his resignation, but did not give an explanation as to why.

Why would he send an email to the class of 2012? They've already graduated. It has no effect on them. Why did he not send an email to the class of 2015?

 

[confettiflyer]

Hi gang, I've been quasi-MIA for the past few days for a few good reasons. I have a few important updates going forward.

1. Due to the size of this thread, I requested the mods split off the accreditation issues into a new thread. Special thanks to Pharm B for all his extensive thread splitting skills and time.
   
2. I have made contact with an individual "on the inside" at CNCP. Not going to elaborate further, but I will faithfully and carefully pass along information into the new thread.

Over the next several days/weeks, I will be posting information of an unofficial nature and will be unable to quote explicit sources, which is what I have strived to do over the past few years. As such, the nature of my posts are going to change, but be aware there is a specific reason I'm doing this.

In other words, trust me.

Thank you and carry on good citizens of SDN.

 

[MBkidd]

It seems that everyone found out the ACPE results. It's very disappointing that CNU only got candidacy extension and not full accreditation. But let's move on beyond this. The only thing that's different this upcoming year from last year is the school obtaining WASC accreditation which is a definite plus. At least this is an indicator that the school is making good progress toward full ACPE accreditaion next year.

Don't freak out that Martin left! Remember that part of the suspicion for why CNU got candidacy continued is due to administration issues, hence this move might be a positive rather than negative (resigned= you're fired next week if you don't quit now).

@prettycat- I hope your boss gave you your position back, it's unfortunate that things turned out the way it is this year but I don't see how the results will effect your future endeavor if you attend the school. The chances of the close not gaining full accreditation next year and close down is possible but how probable is it? If you go to older pharmacy schools, there is still a chance of it getting probation status too!

The school deserves criticism for it's inability to advance to the next level this year but please keep these criticism legitimate. It seems that everyone is inspecting the school with a microscope, every news is somehow interpreted as negative! You guys are starting an avalanche here. Things with the school is not as bleak as sdn is making it out to be, so calm down, take a walk, and reflect on the school a little bit more, don't let sdn guide your decisions to attend the school or not. If CNU is too risky for you than don't attend, no need to air everything out on the net.

@lakeboy- how are you able to get your hands on the emails that the school sent out, are you on the waitlist?! If you are than it appears that you'll probably receive an acceptance email after this fiasco.

@confetti- CNU-COP is here and we're not going anywhere!

 

[MBkidd]

It seems like this is turning into a real life soap opera.

 

[prettycat]

thanks MBkid...i didnt get my job back

i just figured that the investors are developers and city officials...no wonder they are playing lame politics...no wondering the school is going down this path...im wondering how long they will keep the doors open..developers will never ever stay in one biz more than a decade( or afew years)....no wonder they are opening med school when the pharmacy school is up in the air....probably cuz of the economy they stopped building......but im sure in 5 years when construction comes back they will change biz....builders will never care if one of their biz fail...they will get bored and frustrated with this and will go back to construction.....

 

[confettiflyer]

Correspondence #1 - July 2012

The following information is gleaned from an internal e-mail sent to various CNCP stakeholders:

1) Alvin Cheung and Norman Fong, president and VP respectively, are the alleged root causes of the problems of CNCP. It is alleged that they attempted (or succeeded, I don't know the requirements) to lower the minimum GPA requirements to 2.5 in order to obtain additional funds from the application process.

2) It is also alleged that Cheung and Fong are responsible for going over the ACPE student limit in prior years in order to capture additional revenue from student fees. It is alleged that they attempted to admit 150 students, almost double the standard opening size, prior to receiving accreditation.

3) Supposedly, the financial pressures are extreme on this school. I am still in process of ascertaining the owners of the school due to secrecy laws afforded to the school by incorporating in Delaware. As I've stated before, it is damn near impossible to even be profitable with class sizes this small and costs/capital expenses associated with a startup school. 4 years and no return on investment could make anyone itchy.

4) It is alleged that, in the matter of the firing of Bradley Brazill, Cheung and Fong went over the head of former Dean Hawkins and ordered his termination themselves. In the lawsuit, Brazill v. CNCP, Brazill claims whistleblower status for discussing the legality (or lack thereof) with the special arrangement in the alleged illegal funneling of Title IV funds to CNCP.

5) CNCP was originally going to hold off on officially telling students about the lack of advancement to full accreditation until the day AFTER final tuition bills were due, denying students the ability to obtain a refund.

If you notice in the emails posted within this thread, CNCP did a full complete reversal of course when it was discovered that their ACPE status was in fact online and available for the world to see.

6) Another source informed me that there is a pending investigation by a major newspaper in Northern California that is due on news stands by the end of summer. This may or may not come to fruition.

7) There was an attempt to email current students of the ACPE status prior to the CNCP email going out but there was allegedly interference by administration that resulted in many students not receiving it. I cannot confirm this was intentional and it may have been technical issues/getting sent to spam.
​

That's all for now! Please note that I am not currently responding to PM's right away unless they are urgent, please allow 3-5 days. If my PM box is full, I set up [email protected].

 

[confettiflyer]

Please note: Pharm B is likely moving posts related to the accreditation issues over to this thread. Since there were 1200+ posts in that one thread within pre-pharmacy, please have some patience in this matter.

We should also probably buy him a beer or something at Midyear.

For those that want to read the latest discussion, please pop over to Pre-Pharmacy > Class Threads > CNCP 2016. Just don't reply and make Pharm B's life that much harder.

Discussion has been hot/heavy and ongoing for the past few weeks.

 

[confettiflyer]

oops, was the transfer complete? crap i've been posting in the old thread, argh!

 

[BMBiology]

^^ Like HICP, just follow the money and you will find what you are seeking. I am sure this is just the beginning. Keep it coming. I would also contract the local press and send them a link to this thread. Let's see what they can dig up.

 

[rxlea]

So, anyone at AACP ?

 

[pharm B]

It was a TWENTY-FIVE page thread, so I searched for all posts with the word "accreditation" and copied them to a new thread here.

Best I could do.

And this year will be my first time attending Midyear.

... Ahem ...

So I'll definitely take that beer.

 

[confettiflyer]

It was a TWENTY-FIVE page thread, so I searched for all posts with the word "accreditation" and copied them to a new thread here.

Best I could do.

And this year will be my first time attending Midyear.

... Ahem ...

So I'll definitely take that beer.

uhm, well shat now 1/3 of the discussion is in this thread and the other 2/3 is back at the other thread.

i'm pretty sure it's safe to move the final half of that thread over here...if you have a vertical monitor it's easier to move threads on vBulletin using that.

i'll buy you a beer but not a vertical monitor, haha

 

[findingforever]

Having a school like this around is bad for the profession. Adding incompetent graduates to an already saturated California market makes things tougher for those who are more qualified to land jobs. I've heard from many colleagues who have given opportunities to CNCP students to rotate through their sites, only to stop accepting their students shortly thereafter due to their lack of basic knowledge and professionalism. I've had doubts of this for-profit school since the day it opened and can't wait til this clown-show school goes down.