Class of 2020... how you doin?

[WildZoo]

Our caudal gluteal artery and nerve are completely nonexistent due to dissection mishaps. Oops.

So glad for the other groups in the class

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[WhtsThFrequency]

This is giving me Anatomy flashbacks.

Brb hot shower with bleach.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I found drawing my own (albeit bad) pictures in lab helped me quite a bit. I hated Anatomy with the fire of a thousand suns.

.....

And now look at what I do. Hm.

 

[LyraGardenia]

i'm pretty good on identifying stuff but the attachments and things just leave my brain...

Same, our first anatomy practical is Monday and I'm struggling to remember the origins and insertions, other than the obvious ones. I'm working on making some diagrams with a different color for each action, and that's helping me remember those, at least. I'm bummed I spent so much time learning the bones, and apparently there are only going to be 12 questions out of 50 on those. But on the bright side, we had our anatomy lecture exam today and it went really well actually!

So glad for the other groups in the class

Seriously, looking at other groups' dogs is SO helpful. My group did a fairly good job dissecting, but we have one of the smaller dogs in the class (possibly part border collie, so not too tiny) and it's crazy looking at all these huge beefy pitbulls! "Wait, ALL THAT is biceps femoris??"

 

[LyraGardenia]

Also I'm loving how active this thread has stayed! We already have the same number of pages as the class of 2018.

 

[Teepster87]

"Wait, ALL THAT is biceps femoris??"

Please tell me that's on the hind leg, because I don't ever remember hearing that name

 

[WildZoo]

Same, our first anatomy practical is Monday and I'm struggling to remember the origins and insertions, other than the obvious ones. I'm working on making some diagrams with a different color for each action, and that's helping me remember those, at least. I'm bummed I spent so much time learning the bones, and apparently there are only going to be 12 questions out of 50 on those. But on the bright side, we had our anatomy lecture exam today and it went really well actually!

Seriously, looking at other groups' dogs is SO helpful. My group did a fairly good job dissecting, but we have one of the smaller dogs in the class (possibly part border collie, so not too tiny) and it's crazy looking at all these huge beefy pitbulls! "Wait, ALL THAT is biceps femoris??"

We have the fattest dog ever but he does have good muscles under all the fat. Omg the huge fat lump on his hip!

 

[WildZoo]

Please tell me that's on the hind leg, because I don't ever remember hearing that name

Yup, hindlimb!

 

[missdarjeeling]

can we PLEASE go out and celebrate your birthday?!?!?!!!
seriously, what are the chances that out of the two other penn 2020 students on here, I would end up lab partners with one and sitting right next to (in the very back row of the lecture hall) with the other

Obviously, only the coolest people post here and would naturally gravitate towards each other.

On another note, did anyone else read that email from VIN about "EduDebtology"? It's a nice enough concept, but teaching students every little detail about loans and how to manage their debt can only do so much if the actual root of the problem doesn't change. I think I have a fairly solid understanding of the gigantic mess I've gotten myself into, and having to take a class every year in school so I can hear it all over and over again ("Minimize your expenses! Budget! These are the repayment plans that will theoretically still be in place 25 years from now even though none of us know WTF is going to happen!") would only make me feel more like crawling into a hole and dying. Plus, a class for every year of the curriculum seems like overkill. We spend less time on some topics actually related to veterinary medicine.

 

[Caiter92]

Do most of you guys have one dog you use all semester? We have a schedule and we all rotate the dogs daily. It's pretty crazy how much they can differ!

 

[WildZoo]

Do most of you guys have one dog you use all semester? We have a schedule and we all rotate the dogs daily. It's pretty crazy how much they can differ!

Oh that's interesting! Yeah we use the same dog all semester.

 

[Teepster87]

We have one dog to use all semester. We're encouraged to look everyone else's over periodically because they're all so different and they use everyone's dogs for exams. There's 3 prosections of dogs and almost 2 cats for us to look at too.

 

[Teepster87]

I'd probably go crazy having to change dogs every week. It would be a never ending cycle of removing fascia!

 

[Caiter92]

Oh that's interesting! Yeah we use the same dog all semester.

its to try to limit the amount of dogs we need plus to make sure we all have looked at every dog for the most part before exams. We only have 16 dogs for 90 of us (we have two lab sections).

 

[Caiter92]

I'd probably go crazy having to change dogs every week. It would be a never ending cycle of removing fascia!

It's everyday! Haha yeah the first week or two it was definitely a lot of "why is this still on here?!" Because some groups were timid about cleaning. Hasn't been a problem since!

 

[deleted676737]

Obviously, only the coolest people post here and would naturally gravitate towards each other.

On another note, did anyone else read that email from VIN about "EduDebtology"? It's a nice enough concept, but teaching students every little detail about loans and how to manage their debt can only do so much if the actual root of the problem doesn't change. I think I have a fairly solid understanding of the gigantic mess I've gotten myself into, and having to take a class every year in school so I can hear it all over and over again ("Minimize your expenses! Budget! These are the repayment plans that will theoretically still be in place 25 years from now even though none of us know WTF is going to happen!") would only make me feel more like crawling into a hole and dying. Plus, a class for every year of the curriculum seems like overkill. We spend less time on some topics actually related to veterinary medicine.

I saw that email earlier and, yeah, I completely agree. I'm well aware of the finances of this profession and how dire the current debt issue is; I don't need a reminder every semester. Educating the students more about the issue, while admirable, only goes so far--I don't see a whole lot actually changing until the actual root of the issue is addressed, which will probably not happen for a while yet, I'm thinking. Obviously the AVMA/AAVMC know about it, but have they honestly done a whole lot to combat it? If anything, continuing to accredit new schools is counterproductive to that effort.

I'd like to think that vet students are already relatively informed about the debt:salary disparity in the profession (or, at the very least, aware of it), but then again... we actually discussed this in our Vet in Society class today, and when asked what we thought the average starting salary for a newly graduated vet was, a concerning number of people apparently thought that it was in the realm of $90,000+. So maybe not.

 

[WildZoo]

its to try to limit the amount of dogs we need plus to make sure we all have looked at every dog for the most part before exams. We only have 16 dogs for 90 of us (we have two lab sections).

We have...88 people in our class, two lab sections, probably about 20 dogs? Groups of 4 or 5 per dog.

We're encouraged to look everyone else's over periodically because they're all so different and they use everyone's dogs for exams.

Same here.

We don't have any cats available to look at, which gives me a bit of a sad.

 

[WildZoo]

I'd like to think that vet students are already relatively informed about the debt:salary disparity in the profession (or, at the very least, aware of it), but then again... we actually discussed this in our Vet in Society class today, and when asked what we thought the average starting salary for a newly graduated vet was, a... concerning... number of people apparently thought that it was in the realm of $90,000+. So maybe not.

I think people who hang around SDN for a while are maybe a bit more educated about the situation than some others

 

[deleted676737]

I think people who hang around SDN for a while are maybe a bit more educated about the situation than some others

Ha. Fair enough! That is probably true considering how often we beat that horse here.

 

[LyraGardenia]

Do most of you guys have one dog you use all semester? We have a schedule and we all rotate the dogs daily. It's pretty crazy how much they can differ!

That would drive me crazy! We have certain people/groups in my class that are a bit overzealous about cutting things they shouldn't...

 

[Trilt]

I think people who hang around SDN for a while are maybe a bit more educated about the situation than some others

SDNers are, in my experience, much more educated about the debt concerns than your random pre-vet.

I saw that email from VIN earlier and just kind of laughed... I truly can't say that I think adding more to the vet student curriculum about loans will make much of a difference. The best time to save money is when you're picking your school to attend, not after school has started. Budgeting only does so much against 40k+ tuition.

 

[supershorty]

I'd probably go crazy having to change dogs every week. It would be a never ending cycle of removing fascia!

We rotate dogs/cats every week. I was on a cat last week, now I'm on a male dog, next week a female dog - but sounds like we do it a little differently than most of you guys; I have my first lab exam on Monday but it's just on the thoracic & thoracic limb muscles/joints/bones... then we have another exam the following week with more.

Am I the only one who doesn't hate cleaning fascia off? I don't LIKE it, but I don't actively hate it either (and I'm pretty good at it, I should loan myself out...).

 

[WildZoo]

We rotate dogs/cats every week. I was on a cat last week, now I'm on a male dog, next week a female dog - but sounds like we do it a little differently than most of you guys; I have my first lab exam on Monday but it's just on the thoracic & thoracic limb muscles/joints/bones... then we have another exam the following week with more.

Am I the only one who doesn't hate cleaning fascia off? I don't LIKE it, but I don't actively hate it either (and I'm pretty good at it, I should loan myself out...).

I find it kind of soothing (like most mindless, repetitive activities), it just takes a while sometimes.

 

[alohacat319]

We have the most obese dog all the TAs comment on it almost daily and we have received numerous promises to get the least fat animals next semester. We have 22 dogs for 88 people, so it's groups of four, plus four cats. We have a partner group, so one set has a male and one set has a female, and we swap every week to two weeks so we get to see everything on both sex. Our anatomy teacher wrote out specialized guides with an awesome labeled photography supplemental to use as we dissect that has made everything 10000x better.

 

[WildZoo]

Guides would be great because our book sucks ("This muscle is dorsal to this other muscle that we haven't told you about yet haha, good luck finding it!), but the professor and TAs are fabulous about answering questions so it's all good.

 

[alohacat319]

Guides would be great because our book sucks ("This muscle is dorsal to this other muscle that we haven't told you about yet haha, good luck finding it!), but the professor and TAs are fabulous about answering questions so it's all good.

Yeah it goes muscle to muscle working distally down the limb. If we are required to know it for the exam, it is highlighted and underlined with the action and attachment in bullet points after the description. I have yet to open an anatomy textbook because her guides and supplemental are so amazing.

 

[WildZoo]

Yeah it goes muscle to muscle working distally down the limb. If we are required to know it for the exam, it is highlighted and underlined with the action and attachment in bullet points after the description. I have yet to open an anatomy textbook because her guides and supplemental are so amazing.

That sounds fantastic

 

[katashark]

Budgeting only does so much against 40k+ tuition.

 

[Teepster87]

Oh, I like removing fascia, but it doesn't seem like other groups enjoy it as much as my group does

Financial aid actually told us the other day during a brief talk they gave that budgeting is great, but it's still important to treat yourselves sometimes. This was the first thing many of us thought of

 

[rockatiel]

Fascia

Dont know if anyone else feels this way, but honestly, I'm a terrible dissector. My group never lets me touch anything because I'm so bad everyone else seems to make perfect cuts and is able to preserve anything like this is what they were born to do... I'm terrified for surgery class.

 

[WildZoo]

Fascia

Dont know if anyone else feels this way, but honestly, I'm a terrible dissector. My group never lets me touch anything because I'm so bad everyone else seems to make perfect cuts and is able to preserve anything like this is what they were born to do... I'm terrified for surgery class.

How you gonna learn if they don't let you do stuff??

 

[Cephal0pod]

Oh, I like removing fascia, but it doesn't seem like other groups enjoy it as much as my group does

My group finds a tremendous amount of joy and satisfaction in removing fascia

 

[katashark]

Fascia

Dont know if anyone else feels this way, but honestly, I'm a terrible dissector. My group never lets me touch anything because I'm so bad everyone else seems to make perfect cuts and is able to preserve anything like this is what they were born to do... I'm terrified for surgery class.

You gotta be able to practice! Can they help you at all without just taking over?

 

[rockatiel]

I mean, yeah. We are pretty good about splitting up work normally, but usually my work is the stuff that needs a bit of tweaking after. Or maybe I cut a nerve I was supposed to save. So I usually do marledly less. They aren't mean about it at all, we, in all actuality, work very well together. it's just that if something is more challenging, it's usually only one person who takes that on. I'd love to be able to get better at it though.

 

[that redhead]

Our group ended up splitting up duties - one person was the reader/director, the other two dissected. I was not the best dissector so I was never the Boss Lady Dissector but it worked out really well for our group and I could still learn by actually being quizzed on stuff. Different strokes for different folks and yeah, it's nice when someone better at it than you is able to preserve the architecture for repeat visits

 

[deleted498041]

I mean, yeah. We are pretty good about splitting up work normally, but usually my work is the stuff that needs a bit of tweaking after. Or maybe I cut a nerve I was supposed to save. So I usually do marledly less. They aren't mean about it at all, we, in all actuality, work very well together. it's just that if something is more challenging, it's usually only one person who takes that on. I'd love to be able to get better at it though.

I tended to avoid dissecting things in anatomy first year because my group all had dissecting experience and I don't... until one of the anatomists came up to me and said "You want to be a surgeon, right? Here is the basics of learning your instrument and tissue handling. You need to be dissecting." Obviously you'll be much more gentle with a live specimen, but he still had a good point.

 

[deleted498041]

I found drawing my own (albeit bad) pictures in lab helped me quite a bit. I hated Anatomy with the fire of a thousand suns.

.....

And now look at what I do. Hm.

I wasn't a fan of our anatomy class because of how it was "taught." I basically didn't have a single conversation with an anatomist up until the first exam because my group couldn't get one to our table. We have no lectures, no dissection guides, no hand outs, nothing. Still want to be a surgeon, though!

 

[WildZoo]

Our group ended up splitting up duties - one person was the reader/director, the other two dissected. I was not the best dissector so I was never the Boss Lady Dissector but it worked out really well for our group and I could still learn by actually being quizzed on stuff. Different strokes for different folks and yeah, it's nice when someone better at it than you is able to preserve the architecture for repeat visits

That's how we're supposed to do things too, except with 4 people so you have someone as the designated "holder" too, and we just rotate each lab.

 

[Cephal0pod]

Seeing puppers around at school --> dog fever is now at an all time high... Taking on a dog would not be a good call for me right now, but arghhhh... Want....

 

[WildZoo]

Seeing puppers around at school --> dog fever is now at an all time high... Taking on a dog would not be a good call for me right now, but arghhhh... Want....

same

 

[dyachei]

I think people who hang around SDN for a while are maybe a bit more educated about the situation than some others

This is true.

And anyone that tries to educate on other sites gets told that they are just trying to dissuade people from going into vet med.

And several vets kind of agree with them, that I've seen. Drives me nuts.

 

[katashark]

This is true.

And anyone that tries to educate on other sites gets told that they are just trying to dissuade people from going into vet med.

And several vets kind of agree with them, that I've seen. Drives me nuts.

Aspiring vets should be very informed on the good and bad, and the nitty gritty of vet med. It's one of the things I appreciate most about SDN.

 

[dyachei]

Aspiring vets should be very informed on the good and bad, and the nitty gritty of vet med. It's one of the things I appreciate most about SDN.

I agree with this.

I heard one vet say that "would it have changed anything for you? Then why are you trying to scare them away?"

It most definitely would have changed things for me.

 

[missdarjeeling]

There are definitely people who don't know the first thing about all the loans they've taken out, and that's terrifying. It's so important for everyone to know what they're getting themselves into so they can make a truly informed decision. If that scares people off, it's because it's actually scary, and I think sugarcoating does a huge disservice to pre-vets. In that sense, I think having budget, debt, and loan information as part of the curriculum is helpful, but some of it comes a little too late for those who didn't research before applying. But even if every pre-vet had all the information they needed, the problem wouldn't exactly be fixed. I don't think tuition would go down much if fewer students applied to vet school. You could conceivably see some schools close, as has happened with law schools, but tuition likely wouldn't budge, since there will always be people who are able to pay and those who are willing to take on the burden despite the risks and implications. Any increases in salary for private practice would still be constricted by the market and what people are actually willing to pay, so the debt-to-income ratio problem wouldn't really be resolved.

Anyway, money aside, some of the doctors I worked with were very negative about vet school overall despite actually being fairly positive about their jobs, work, and situations. What I mean is constantly telling me how much it's going to suck and how much I'm going to want to die and how awful it is and how it's going to destroy me. But then tacking on, "But you'll be fine." And then there was the negativity about my marriage. "They call it 'divorce school' for a reason" and "Well, you're pretty brave living apart from your husband." Then I had the other doctors asking me if I was excited to start school, and I was mostly lying when I said yes. I appreciate the real advice and honest opinions, but to be honest, they filled me with dread and lots and lots of anxiety, and I'm not sure how helpful that really was.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

Being informed versus having the pants scared off of you does = two very different things.

 

[hazelmoo]

My classmate volunteered on our outreach mobile clinic today and got to do her first cat neuter! Can't wait to volunteer in October!!

Gives me all the more motivation to get my butt in gear and study instead of watching How I Met Your Mother lol

 

[Gwenevre]

I agree with this.

I heard one vet say that "would it have changed anything for you? Then why are you trying to scare them away?"

It most definitely would have changed things for me.

It certainly changed things for me. Once I sat down and had a self coming to Jesus moment, I had serious doubts about vet med and if it was really the right decision for me.

 

[Trilt]

Being informed versus having the pants scared off of you does = two very different things.

The situation for many people should scare their pants off. Looking at a grand+ payment every month every year for most of your working life should truly make people think twice. It's basically another mortgage. It should change things for people, and I'm very frustrated to hear of vets that think otherwise and wouldn't recommend people be fully informed before they decide to attend school.

Being informed about the debt load absolutely impacted how I applied to school, and if I couldn't have attended my IS or another quite affordable school, I simply wouldn't be a vet. Period. Because there are other things in life that I value, I have lots of interests, and drowning in debt forever is just not something I'm personally OK with.

I understand that this profession is a dream for many people, but that doesn't mean that they should be silly about it. You have to live with the financial results for so very long...

 

[deleted676737]

The situation for many people should scare their pants off. Looking at a grand+ payment every month every year for most of your working life should truly make people think twice. It's basically another mortgage. It should change things for people, and I'm very frustrated to hear of vets that think otherwise and wouldn't recommend people be fully informed before they decide to attend school.

Being informed about the debt load absolutely impacted how I applied to school, and if I couldn't have attended my IS or another quite affordable school, I simply wouldn't be a vet. Period. Because there are other things in life that I value, I have lots of interests, and drowning in debt forever is just not something I'm personally OK with.

I understand that this profession is a dream for many people, but that doesn't mean that they should be silly about it. You have to live with the financial results for so very long...

This, exactly. I'm not for vets outright discouraging pre-vets from going to vet school, but they should be urging them to really, really think hard about it. And then think about it some more.

I'm pretty fortunate in that I'm recieving IS tuition at one of the cheapest schools for IS tuition, but I also have some pretty significant undergrad debt. Before inflation, interest, and capitalization, I'm going to have around $180k in debt if I take out the full amount offered every year--probably closer to $200k once all of that is applied. That is probably about as high as I was willing to go for vet school. I also applied to schools like Midwestern and Glasgow, and as neat as those schools look and how cool it would have been to get out of the midwest... I honestly don't think I could have stomached tuition of $250k-$300k. Especially with undergrad debt on top. Some people can--everyone has different thresholds--but I don't think I could have personally made that work with the lifestyle I want to have.

I'm so glad that I ended up where I am for this very reason. But I'm still second-guessing vet school and whether this is truly the best decision for me or if I should just get out now before my debt reaches six figures.

Yes, people absolutely need to be informed about the debt:salary ratio of the veterinary profession before seriously pursing it; being on SDN made me think that it was common knowledge for us, but speaking to some of my classmates, that surprisingly doesn't seem to be the case for many of them. They speak of it pretty flippantly, either believing that the debt will not hinder them or that their salary is going to be higher than what can be reasonably expected for today's newly graduated vet.

But, like Trilt also said, education on the issue after vet school has already started doesn't do a whole lot. What really needs to be addressed here is the actual root of the issue. Will that happen anytime soon? Eh, maybe? I mean, I'm pretty sure that the first batch of people to have graduated with IBR are getting close to the point where they are forgiven their remaining debt... but how many of them are actually going to be able to afford that last big tax payment?

If a pre-vet wants to attend a school that is going to put them $300k+ in the hole, then that is their prerogative. All the more power to them. But they do need to be at least informed about what they are getting into. Ignorance does not help the situation, and I am slightly irritated that there are vets actively discouraging pre-vets from learning more about this issue because it affects everyone in the profession, not just students.

 

[LadyOtheFarm]

The situation for many people should scare their pants off. Looking at a grand+ payment every month every year for most of your working life should truly make people think twice. It's basically another mortgage. It should change things for people, and I'm very frustrated to hear of vets that think otherwise and wouldn't recommend people be fully informed before they decide to attend school

This, exactly. I'm not for vets outright discouraging pre-vets from going to vet school, but they should be urging them to really, really think hard about it. And then think about it some more.

In case I wasn't clear, I was talking about the method of information delivery. Yes, the situation itself is scary, even terrifying. But I was responding to the story of vets telling a pre vet what amounted to "your marriage cannot survive vet school" and "it will make you suicidal." That is not informing. That is just telling horror stories for the sake of scaring the pre vet.

Yes. Everyone should know what they are getting into before they make the decision to actually apply and attend. No, stress that will actually kill you and your relationships and destroy any joy you find in this world is not everyone's experience, and hopefully, those who think that is what they are experiencing realize they are offered help by their school, their peers, their community.

Scary information on realistic expectation vs. Scary misinformation on possible realization of fears.