Is optometry school a good investment?

[Jason K]

There's a lot of people applying to optometry school on this forum so I just want to put this out there. Is optometry school really going to be a good investment right now? More than ever, optometry school, or any graduate degree, should be considered an investment, just like stocks, bonds, and mutual funds. An OD used to cost a few hundred dollars per quarter or semester and student loans were almost unheard of. Now days, most students pay well in excess of 100K for an OD, some approach 200K at graduation, but the pay for ODs has actually decreased. If you do a residency, you’ll will be deferring your loan payments, but will still accumulate interest on your total balance, so you’ll add another 8K to 16K to your loan amount. Most people (myself included) ignore the importance of the expense of the degree, thinking “I’ll just worry about that later.” But if you don’t make as much as you think after graduation, you may be in for an unpleasant surprise. I thought I’d be starting at 100K or so, with a gradual increase over time. This is definitely not the case now days.

Optometry is very saturated with ODs. There are far too many ODs in cities. Yes, it is true that there are parts of the US that are underserved, but they are, as a rule, places that most new grads would not prefer to live (although some might find these places desirable). If you get 2 to 3 hours outside of a significant city, you’ll have much better odds of finding a job and might even be sought after. I would not go to optometry school with the idea that you’ll get out of school, open your own practice in your home city, and live happily ever after. That might have been a reality 15 or 20 years ago, but it is not practical for most grads to follow that path now since they carry such large debt at graduation, would have difficulty getting a practice loan, and face tremendous competition from surrounding ODs if you set up in or near a city. Don’t forget, when you start an practice, you won’t be making a profit for 3-5 years and you still have to pay your loans which range from 1K to 2K per month, every month, without exception. My loans eat up about 1/4th of my income, and that’s before taxes. Basically, I pay income tax on my full income, but it’s as if I only make 3/4 of that number. You may look at starting salaries you hear about and think, wow, 80K is a lot of money! 80K is tough to get by on when you take away 12-24K for loans. You can get down to a “real income” of about 55K pretty quickly. People get by on that amount, but it’s not easy, especially if you have a family. What’s more, you don’t need a 150K dollar degree to make 55 or 60K. Many new grads are being paid considerably less than 80K, which is usually quoted as the “going rate.” With so many grads coming out, new schools popping up (why on Earth are we adding more schools right now?), and commercial optometry expanding, the value of a new grad is dropping and I hear of starting salaries in the high 60s and low 70s more and more. It is really tough to get by with that amount unless you have your degree paid for by some means. Consider that in the early 90s, starting salaries were in the high 50s and low 60s, which was equivalent to 90-100K today. Salaries have dropped and they’re not going to come back anytime soon. As a matter of fact, income for private ODs has dropped 21K since 2007 and continues to drop.

Please understand that if you go to optometry school now, you will very likely be working in commercial optometry after graduation, at least for several years, and maybe for your career. There’s nothing wrong with working at Walmart or Sam’s Club, in my opinion, but it’s not what most people dream of when they are going through school. In my opinion, optometry is going to be a nearly entirely commercial profession in 10 to 15 years since there are not many new grads going into private practice these days, most are feeding into the commercial/retail realm because that’s what is available. In addition, commercial optometry is creating extreme pressures that work against private practices and will continue to do so in the future. Example? Vision plans used to pay 2 or 3 times what they pay now for an eye exam. Why the drop? Because commercial corporations give away eye exams either free of charge or for extremely low prices in order to get people in to buy glasses and contacts. They aren’t in the business of providing eye care, they want to sell materials so they don’t mind paying an OD to write Rxs all day so they can sell, sell, sell. You may be told you can practice full scope in these environments, but you’ll soon discover it’s all about glasses and contacts.

My goal here is not to scare you, but to make you aware of a reality that most applicants are not aware of. Don’t count on your private OD school to tell you about these issues, they want you to sign on the dotted line and pay tuition so from their standpoint, an OD is the best investment you can make. I can’t tell you whether optometry is a good or bad decision for you, but for myself, I honestly think I would have been better off doing something else with my money that provided a better return and better career opportunities. Like many of my residency-trained colleagues, I have funneled into a commercial position where I basically refract all day and use little of my training. I was given several offers for private practice associateships after my residency, but they did not pay enough to allow me to keep up with my student loans, pay my bills, 3 kids, mortgage, etc. I decided to take a higher-paying commercial job which helps me pay my bills, but really has no future. I’d like to go into private practice, but it is simply not likely to happen due to financial constraints. I, like many of you, assumed that I could get my degree, open up or buy an office, and start my private practice dream. I’d hate for one more person to end up in my shoes, so that’s why I made this post.

Before you choose any profession, really do some research and find out what is going on in the field. For optometry, talk to real ODs in practice who are recent grads. Don't only talk to established ODs with thriving practices. They started out at a time which was very different from today. Don't expect to duplicate what they have, they did not have to overcome many of the obstacles that exist today. Starting a private optometry office has never been easy and they undoubtedly poured a lot of sweat and tears into their offices, but rest assured it's MUCH more difficult to get started now than it was 15 or 20 years ago. Banks know this better than we do which is why it is far more difficult to get a large practice loan now than it was then. ODs (and other docs; chiropractors, dentists, vets,etc) used to be considered "sure bets" by lenders. We are not considered that anymore. Borrowing large amounts of money to start or buy a practice is not a simple process like it used to be. Talk to people in the city you want to live and in the type of setting you’d like to practice. Don’t talk to hospital or VA ODs if your goal is to go into private practice in a group setting. The info you’ll get won’t be applicable. Don’t rely on what the schools tell you, they’re selling a product to you, the customer. Don’t rely on numbers you find on the internet or in the US Bureau of Labor Statistics as most of the info is outdated and or completely inaccurate. I saw one post in which a doc in Beverly Hills claimed that new grads can expect 200K to 500K in their first few years out. This is absolutely ridiculous. As a new grad, expect to have several part time jobs since full time is very hard to come by. Expect to work as a contractor since employed positions are more scarce. What’s the difference? You pay a lot more taxes as a contractor since you pay all of your own expenses and social security tax. Your income will be about 10-12% less as a contractor for the same pay level.

There is more detailed information on the You_Tube Channel: StayAwayFromAnOD where you can learn more about what is going on in the profession. Best of luck to all of you, whatever you choose.

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[KHE]

In general, optometry as a degree is a good investment.

Look, let's say it costs $250,000 to get an OD degree.

And lets say someone graduates, takes a job in some horrible commercial mill and makes $80,000 per year with only a 1% raise in salary for a 40 year career.

(Yes, I know licenses and insurances and inflation etc. etc. But let's leave that aside for now.

That person, in a 40 year career will have earned approximately 4 million dollars.

Someone graduating from college having spent $60,000 and lets a job making 40k a year. Let's say that they get a 1% raise per year. They've made two million dollars, even with the extra 4 years.

So for an extra 200,000, you've made an extra two million at the end of the career.

The problem with optometry isn't the money. The money is generally adequate. The problem with optometry is that what most of you envision for your career isn't nearly as likely to happen as it was 10,20, or 30 years ago.

 

[Jason K]

The problem with optometry isn't the money. The money is generally adequate. The problem with optometry is that what most of you envision for your career isn't nearly as likely to happen as it was 10,20, or 30 years ago.

KHE, I completely agree with you that the money is not the greatest issue, it's the career outlook that is the biggest problem. I don't contest the fact that an OD does increase your earning potential over an average job, but at what long-term financial and life cost? Does the sacrifice prove to be worth all the effort? Consider that MDs start out making almost twice what the average OD starts making after graduation, admittedly with more time in training, but not that much more. The fact is, even new MD grads are having trouble paying their loans which are no different from OD loans, the cost is about the same. (I'm not advocating going to med-school here, medicine has its own set of issues as well, some of which overlap with optometry.) It goes beyond just the beginning and ending numbers you presented. The toughest time is the first 10 to 15 years of repayment since income is lowest and expenses are often a larger percentage of income than ever in one's life. For example, when applying for a mortgage, student loans debt is considered and your ability to get a home loan will be severely affected. It's hard enough for anyone to get a home loan now, let alone someone who comes in with a 200K student loan balance. Get a practice loan to start cold or purchase a practice? (not that I would advocate any new grad even attempt that in most situations) It would be extremely unlikely that a new grad or even one several years out would be able to get a sizable loan in the face of such debt. Even if one could, what kind of risk are you assuming in that situation? 200K in student loans, perhaps 250-500K for a home, then tack on another 250-500K for a practice? Yikes, I thought I had it bad. I hope the practice does well!

Overall, the result is, you're "stuck" at the 80-85K (if you're lucky) level indefinitely, which translates to about 55 to 60K of actual income. Optometry school was no picnic so is it really worth it for that kind of buying power? Relating back to the career outlook issue, many grads, especially those in places like LA, Chicago, Boston, etc. are going to have to suck it up and go into independent contact positions at Walmart, Sams, etc after graduation. They usually string together several to try to get a full time schedule. Those types of positions fluctuate. Income generated per month varies greatly and the very position itself might disappear/reappear suddenly. Keeping up with loan payments when you don't even know how much money you'll be bringing in is VERY stressful.

All in all, I do agree that as an investment, you do see a return over someone who puts in nothing, but is the return worth it? That is the question. Most people go into expensive professions like optometry to provide themselves with some sense of job security and a wide range of job options. Neither of those things are realistic normal expectations with optometry anymore for newer grads. There are lots of people applying to optometry school right now who have absolutely no idea what they're getting themselves into. They see what their home optometrist has and think "That's great, I can do that!" Those are the people whom I'd like to reach out to. I'm not telling anyone not to go to optometry school. I'm just telling people to do their own research and really find out what the profession is like and where it's heading before dropping a couple of hundred grand into student loans. You may be very disappointed when you realize what you paid for and what you've received in return.

I'd argue that there are professions out there which require the same or less financial investment, but provide a much greater financial return and far better career outlook. I may be wrong, but that's just my view on things. Thanks for the reply, though!

 

[netmag]

If I hated my profession so much that I would take the time to make youtube videos about how terrible it was, I think I would be highly motivated to find a new career. Really, it's probably not too late to change especially if you truly aren't making much money now anyway. Do you want to spend the rest of your life making anti-Optometry posts on the internet? I certainly hope not. I think a profession like Optometry requires a certain kind of personality to be successful since you are dealing directly with people and there are indeed other options for them to choose. I think the general public might pick up on a sour personality and not be inclined to go out of their way for a return visit. If you're truly carrying around such anguish for your personal career decisions, it might come through a little bit to your patients.

I think a better question for you to ask might be "Which graduate schools are a good investment?" Everyone who goes to any kind of graduate school has to pay back loans (which would most likely come out of their salary) and most of them cost an arm and a leg now too. Therefore, I assume your main issue must be the money or what you perceive to be a relative lack thereof within Optometry. If you can get others opinions in regards to what they believe would be an excellent career investment in terms of the job outlook and amount of money that can be made, then you might find another career that would truly make you happy.

 

[Shnurek]

^^^

You can be a successful optometrist or an unsuccessful optometrist. Just like with any other profession, the degree itself is not a guarantee of success.

 

[Jason K]

I think a better question for you to ask might be "Which graduate schools are a good investment?" Everyone who goes to any kind of graduate school has to pay back loans (which would most likely come out of their salary) and most of them cost an arm and a leg now too. Therefore, I assume your main issue must be the money or what you perceive to be a relative lack thereof within Optometry. If you can get others opinions in regards to what they believe would be an excellent career investment in terms of the job outlook and amount of money that can be made, then you might find another career that would truly make you happy.

I agree with your comment about looking into what various degrees will produce in terms of payoff. You might not have finished my post because that was the major point in my last paragraph (I know, I'm long-winded.) I’d bet that all professions have taken it a hit, so it’s more important than ever before to do your research before entering any profession to see if it will provide the return that you are expecting, both financial and otherwise. I don’t know of a single OD in my graduating class who entered school with the hopes of working at a leased JCPenny location or at a Sam’s Club, and yet a large percentage of my classmates, about 70% by my count from those I’ve contacted, are in those types of positions 5 years out.

Regarding your comment about my supposed “hatred” for optometry. I don’t hate optometry at all. I’m disappointed that the profession is not what I thought it was going to be when I started out, but I by no means hate it. I would like to inform others who might be considering the profession of my opinions, simply because had I known then what I know now, I would probably have done something else. I should point out that while I wrote most of the powerpoint presentation on the youtube channel, I did not create the video conversation and I disagree with the name of the channel since I’m not out to tell people not to go into optometry. There is some good information on the channel which is why I mentioned it. I’m simply telling folks to really learn what they’re getting into before heading of to get their OD. I’d have chosen a much more neutral name if it were mine.

As for the personality type comment, you are correct since it is, in part, a sales profession in most instances. Optometry demands a personality that can instill confidence and trust in patients. Despite my disappointment, my patients have no clue that I do not love what I do. I am very good at what I do and my patients don’t deserve a crappy eye doctor simply because he doesn’t like his job all that much. I can put on a pretty convincing act and I have no trouble building a strong patient base and getting referrals from happy patients. I can guarantee you that if you met me at a convention or meeting, you’d have no idea that I don’t love what I do. It doesn’t change the fact that optometry, as a profession, does not offer what it used to and it does not offer what many people expect when entering optometry school. The payoff is mismatched with the cost, in my opinion. You may not share my opinion, and that’s fine, but there are many, many ODs out there who quietly agree with me.

Taking an objective view here, I can see that I have a stronger drive than most to announce my disappointment to others who are considering the profession. Why is that? Perhaps this is because during my training, I’ve had the opportunity to work in great settings, offices where ODs practice medical optometry at a very high level. I felt like I was practicing valued optometry. I am not in that setting now and it isn’t because I didn’t like it or I couldn’t cut it. It’s because I can’t afford it. The offers that I received to work in several private practices I worked in as a resident did not pay enough to keep me afloat given my loans and family expenses. I ended up taking a higher paying job which was, of course, commercial. If I didn’t do that, I would have had to choose between paying my student loans and paying my home mortgage. Why don’t I move? I’m tied to a city because of my family situation and I knew that when I started optometry school, but I was unaware that respectable jobs in major cities are not easily found these days. Again - trying to let people know what to expect. I don't dislike optometry, I dislike the fact that it has changed to the point that new grads are herding into commercial/retail careers unaware that they may never get out. The demand is simply not there because of the glut of ODs and that drives both pay and the value of a new OD way down. I was given the impression that the offering practices felt as though they were offering a precious commodity the coveted "private practice associateship." Because of that value, they have the right to offer very low pay since if I don't or can't take the job, one of the other 50 people in line behind me will. It's supply and demand. I'm sorry if it leaves a bitter taste in people's mouths, but the info I'm stating is true. You don't have to believe it, listen to it, or repeat it, but it's there and it's real. If people learn about what optometry offers these days and they choose it anyway, I have no problem with that. What I want to prevent is someone going into optometry, as I did, expecting to get out something which is unrealistic. If you think you can duplicate what the current large, successful OD practices are doing today, you're not being realistic.

 

[Jason K]

^^^

You can be a successful optometrist or an unsuccessful optometrist. Just like with any other profession, the degree itself is not a guarantee of success.

Your statement is 100% correct. No degree is a guarantee of success. The problem is that professions are not defined by exceptions, they're defined by the norms. If someone starting optometry school in 1990 planned on starting a private office or getting into a group practice after graduation, that was hardly unrealistic for someone to plan on. Today, there are new grads out there who do get fantastic associateships. I have one classmate who got a 6 figure job right out of school without a residency in a very good solo OD office. He lives in the middle of nowhere, but he likes it that way. The question is, where do most grads go? What can an applicant to an OD program expect upon graduation these days? Is it likely that he/she will have access to a wide range of practice options or it is more likely that he/she will have to take a refractive-only commercial or retail job in order to make some money, regardless of the position's quality. If I do take that job, will it be likely that I will be able to transition into a good private practice track if I choose to do so? Will an OD get me to where I want to be professionally in 5, 10, or 15 years? Those are the questions that need to be asked by potential applicants. I wish I had done so myself. I'm not raining on your parade since I see you're a 1st year student, but I think the good and the bad of the profession is something even first years should be familiar with. I know when I was a 1st year I had no idea what was going on.

 

[Shnurek]

He lives in the middle of nowhere, but he likes it that way.

Oh believe me, I did my research on this profession and on health professions in general. MD/DO's are also saturated in cities. The point is that I would want to be where your colleague is. I am perfectly happy being in the middle of nowhere and I would have gone to an optometry school in the middle of nowhere had I the means. If I wanted to stay in NYC my whole life I would have gone into finance or something of this sort. I realize I am not the norm as many of my colleagues come to NYC because they are sick of being in the middle of nowhere (grass is always greener on the other side syndrome). I ask people this question though: "Would you want to raise your kids here?"

I'm sure this relates to you as you say you reside in a city and you were uninformed about the consequences of establishing yourself as an OD in a major city. I guess it is good that you are spreading the word about these issues and I believe students nowadays are much more informed thanks to the wonders of the internet so they choose more wisely.

Great article from The Onion: http://www.theonion.com/articles/84-million-new-yorkers-suddenly-realize-new-york-c,18003/

 

[KHE]

If you read the negative threads on here, and even go back to some of mine when I was taking my leave of absence from the profession a number of years back you'll realize that there's a common thread.

That common thread is "unmet expectations."

And notice also that it's not really unmet expectations about money. That's there but money is much more in the background. It's unmet expectations of what the profession of optometry actually is and how it's practiced on a day to day basis.

They key to success in optometry is in realizing what optometry is, putting the disappointment of the unmet expectations behind you, being comfortable with that and then aggressively going after what you want within that context.

Once you get on board with that, you can do well. Very well.

 

[JAZZEYE]

delete

 

[Eyes Only]

If you read the negative threads on here, and even go back to some of mine when I was taking my leave of absence from the profession a number of years back you'll realize that there's a common thread.

That common thread is "unmet expectations."

And notice also that it's not really unmet expectations about money. That's there but money is much more in the background. It's unmet expectations of what the profession of optometry actually is and how it's practiced on a day to day basis.

They key to success in optometry is in realizing what optometry is, putting the disappointment of the unmet expectations behind you, being comfortable with that and then aggressively going after what you want within that context.

Once you get on board with that, you can do well. Very well.

I agree, this is why we have so many miserable ODs out there. When I graduated over 20 years ago I went straight into my own practice. Even with student debt it was possible for anyone to own their own practice. We knew we would spend most of our days doing refractions, fitting CLs, providing health evaluations and referring when necessary.

Today some young ODs expect to spend the whole day treating eye disease. There are too many OMDs and ODs for this to occur. Most ODs still refract, fit CLs, and perform the traditional tasks of an OD.

I know someone is going to respond with some friend or their own personal experience (VA or whatever) where they are treating disease nonstop, but this is not what most of us do. Most of our patients are healthy and just want to see better or more efficiently.

This is the profession I trained for and am content to do this. But with all the extra courses in ocular disease and lasers, young people think they are going to spend all their time doing "medical optometry". I hear this term a lot from recent grads.

Also the business of selling optical goods is a lot harder today than it used to be. There is an amazing amount of competition out there. We can't all have the high end practice where patients buy thousands of dollars worth of glasses each year. And the Internet has made cheap goods available to everyone.

If I were an optometry student right now I'd be thinking about going to an area where my services were needed. There are rural communities that would welcome an OD and without all the competition you might actually get to use some of that therapeutic knowledge you have acquired. I'd also watch my debt and not make foolish financial decisions. You don't need a new car in optometry school. You don't need designer clothes and you don't need to take expensive vacations right now. If you want to live in the big city, expect to work in retail. Expect to work every weekend. I haven't worked a weekend in the past 10 years.

If I were a pre-optometry student I'd thoroughly research the profession and make sure it is what I thought it would be. If you want to practice medicine, go to medical school. If you don't like the way optometry is practiced today, do something else.

This can be a great profession. I have made a very comfortable living and don't regret being an OD. I don't like some of the changes...the problems with insurance, the extra competition, and especially now one of the worst economic environments we have ever had in this country.

I've never been in retail practice and I've never met anyone who was who seemed happy to be an OD. If you want to spend 8 years in college to get a JOB where someone else tells you how to practice, go into retail. Get all the facts and make the right decisions so you won't be one of those miserable ODs.

 

[Shnurek]

^^ Great post. I heard students in Tennessee for example expect to analyze FA's all day after graduation lol. Even though it is legal to do in that state it rarely happens in reality. I realize I will spend most of my days refracting and CL fitting and most people should realize that. That is fine with me. I work for a retina OMD right now and 90% of the patients are above 70 years old. That's not a population group I'd want to work with the rest of my life (even though medicare pays awesome). I think optometry has the benefit of being able to practice with patients of all ages.

 

[Jason K]

Today some young ODs expect to spend the whole day treating eye disease. There are too many OMDs and ODs for this to occur. Most ODs still refract, fit CLs, and perform the traditional tasks of an OD.
ODs.

Based on a couple of the previous comments, I realize I may have given the mistaken impression that my disappointment is rooted in the fact that I'm not doing "medical optometry" all day long. Since there's no real definition for the term, I'll clarify what I meant. I have no desire to treat complex ocular disease all day. I am glad to have the training, but I'd much rather practice more routine optometry, and have the capability to maintain my knowledge base by treating more medical cases when needed and when they fall into my scope of abilities. What I'm describing is a solid, full-scope OD office where everything isn't immediately referred out at the first sign of a problem. I have no desire to be ordering and interpreting FAs all day long, let me make that very clear. That being said, I'd like to have the ability in my place of practice, to treat pathology that I've been well trained to deal with, things that ODs are all well trained to handle; red eyes, FBs, plugs, early and moderate uncomplicated glaucoma, surgical comanagement, etc. I am unable to do these things because the company I work for has no desire to "treat" patients, they only want me to sell, sell, sell - and that means glasses and contact lenses. Thirty or 40 years ago, optometry was a refractive profession revolving mostly around refractive correction. Anyone who's earned an OD in the last 15 years or so knows how much the scope of knowledge we get in school has grown. So when I say that I'd like to be practicing "medical optometry," what I'm really saying is, I'd like to be practicing "optometry."

Right now, I'm basically a well-paid refracting optician. My day revolves around a cat-and-mouse game between me and the company I work for. How am I going to refer out this patient since I know I'm going to take crap for it and possibly get my hours cut because I didn't sell the required number of Optomaps or PALs. I’ve heard this phrase a few too many times; “We really don’t want doctors referring out patients unless they are certain there’s a problem, otherwise, we may not get that patient back next year.” When you have nothing but a slitlamp, phoropter, and NCT in your office, it’s pretty tough to make definitive diagnoses in the back of the eye. When I first started, I'd routinely go to work to find that all traces of fluorescein have mysteriously vanished, guess I won’t be seeing any anterior seg pathology today or doing any GP work. I actually carry around my own fluorescein now.

So, when I say that I’m disappointed, that’s what I’m referring to - the fact that I actually have to but heads with my employer over my right to practice my profession with even a shred of respect and decency. I take heat for every patient encounter in which I don't move product. "Why didn't you sell this patient a new PAL and sunglasses? I don't care that their Rx hasn't changed, that they're a cash patient, and that they have 1 year old pairs that they're thrilled with - sell ANOTHER pair!" Not all commercial settings are as bad as mine, but they are all commercial and they all have the same underlying drive; selling materials. Commercial optometry is not going anywhere and I’m hoping that applicants to OD programs understand that fact. I understand that optometry is a business and that we need to make money, but we don't need to be dishonest in order to do so. If a cash patient asks me if they "need a new pair of glasses" and their Rx hasn't changed, I'll be honest with them - and sometimes I pay for it.

As I said in my previous post, I would love to have taken one of the offers in a private setting. I loved the offices, I loved the staff, and the environment was ideal. What was not ideal was the 25K pay cut I would have had to take in order to work there. The "going rate" for newer ODs in a private setting, residency trained or not, is dropping and in my opinion, will continue to do so since we're pumping out more and more every year and adding more programs. Practice owners know they have a hot commodity and that if someone turns down a low offer, another solid OD is right behind them willing and able.

 

[Eyes Only]

Based on a couple of the previous comments, I realize I may have given the mistaken impression that my disappointment is rooted in the fact that I'm not doing "medical optometry" all day long.

My comments weren't directed at you and I'm sorry if you think they were. I am tired of hearing a lot of students talking like they are going to be practicing medicine when they graduate. I don't know who promotes this nonsense but it is too prevalent.

Like you, I enjoy traditional optometry. I am not shamed or bothered to help people see better, fit CLs, prescribe glasses, and offer VT.

I am lucky that student debt was a lot more reasonable when I graduated.

I thought I'd join this forum to help enlighten students, but it seems that the majority of them already know everything there is to know about the "real world". And if you try to correct their misinformation, they fly off in a rage.

You'd think they be interested in the opinions of any OD, regardless of how or where they practice and regardless of whether they love or hate the profession. But it seems they only want reinforcement for their uniformed views.

When I was younger I listened to everything any OD was willing to share with me, hoping I would benefit in some way.

I wish you luck in your practice and I respect your opinions, no matter what they are. But then, I've been around long enough to know that I don't now everything and most of what I think about optometry are just MY opinions.

I think now I am just wasting my time here.

 

[Jason K]

My comments weren't directed at you and I'm sorry if you think they were. I am tired of hearing a lot of students talking like they are going to be practicing medicine when they graduate. I don't know who promotes this nonsense but it is too prevalent.

I thought I'd join this forum to help enlighten students, but it seems that the majority of them already know everything there is to know about the "real world". And if you try to correct their misinformation, they fly off in a rage.

You'd think they be interested in the opinions of any OD, regardless of how or where they practice and regardless of whether they love or hate the profession. But it seems they only want reinforcement for their uniformed views.

When I was younger I listened to everything any OD was willing to share with me, hoping I would benefit in some way.

No worries, I was more referring to the comment about SCO students wanting to get out perform brain surgery all day long. I've never really understood why an new grad would be attracted to high level "disease only" type practices which are usually in MD offices anyway. It's pretty stressful to work in that environment and you assume a lot of responsibility that you may or may not be qualified to handle.

At any rate, I completely agree with your views on how it seems that younger folks don't take advice very well, although I think it's more a reflex response than anything else. I think people form an opinion of what they WANT to get out of optometry and if anyone tries to tell them "Hey, things may not be exactly what you think they are..." the person gets defensive and acts like you're directing a personal attack at them. In reality, I'm just trying to get some information out that would have probably swayed my decision, or at least prepared me for what I have to deal with now even if had made the same choice. Everyone is entitled to their view, however, and this is simply how I feel about the profession. If someone who's considering optometry as a profession reads my take on the matter and thinks I'm crazy, they have that right. They may discover in a few years, however, that maybe my view was a little more accurate than they thought.

 

[KHE]

KHE...based on what you know now...would you say that there is nowhere to go but down as far as "unmet expectations" ( career satisfaction ) for the profession as a whole... or do see any realistic scenario that could better position optometry say 10yrs down the road...what I'm getting at I guess... is it cyclical or a one way street. I do realize there will always be some who excell and some who won't...I'm speaking of the profession as a whole having a better playing field of opportunities... Anything ! changes in economy , scope , optometry role healthcare ...anything that could be an unforseen plus for the future of a practicing optometrist 2021 ?

Well, some good questions there and I had to think about them.

I don't know if there's anywhere to go but down per se but I think the problem is that optometry on the whole is largely overtrained for what the majority of optometrists do and for where the majority of optometrists practice.

Most optometry students envision themselves working in and/or owning a large, beautiful private practice with a waiting room stuffed full of cool, fun interesting ocular pathology and patients just falling all over themselves to be part of your practice.

The reality is that the vast majority of ODs work in commercial or private practices where the emphasis is on vision correction through glasses or contact lenses and the treatment of the occasional mild eye pathology.

For the "cool private practice" you almost always give up the fun pathology.

For the "fun pathology" you almost always give up the cool private practice and you end up working for an MD or maybe the VA but then you're employed by someone else forever and you work their hours at their facility and deal with their crap and your salary maxes out almost immediately.

So if we're going to train ourselves to go down this "medical" route, we're probably going to give up a lot of independence which I think is terrible for the profession. We will end up almost like physical therapists. We will be employed by "other people" rather than ourselves. The profession of optometry will be controlled by other people, not optometrists. People argue that that already is happening and on some level it's true but it really could be a lot worse.

I don't think it's cyclical or due to the economy. I think schools do a good job of training ODs on most things but the powers that be at the schools have done a horrible job of integrating optometry into the health care delivery team. I could write pages on that problem but in terms of optometric education and setting students expectations, THAT is the biggest problem.

As far as 10 years down the road, hard to see. Could be could, could be bad. Obamacare? That's a hot button political issue but just from an optometric perspective it could be the greatest thing since the invention of the phoropter or the worst thing since, well......the worst thing ever. No one knows.

 

[robinchm]

I am a pre-optometry student and currently working on my application to optometry school. I really appreciated this thread because it helps me to get a more realistic view of what optometry is today, something I haven't heard from schools. My goal is to skimp through optometry school with as few student loans as possible (I would like to go to Indiana University School of Optometry), and maybe do a residency in Indianapolis, where I can live at home and save some money. I currently work in a research lab dealing with retinal disparities in patients with diabetes and macular degeneration and I love it. But I realize now that I am not going to get that 6-figure salary right off the bat that most people (including current opt students in my lab) think that they are going to have right after graduation. I will probably be working at Walmart to pay the bills for a while, but now I see the importance of networking and doing what I can now to eventually end up in a satisfying career one day. I am a little worried about the future of optometry at times, but I couldn't imagine doing anything else. I toyed with ophthalmology for a long time (even took the MCAT), but I keep coming back to optometry because I want to learn about the eye and only the eye and even if I make a lot less money, I am hopeful that optometry can make me happy.

 

[KHE]

I am a pre-optometry student and currently working on my application to optometry school. I really appreciated this thread because it helps me to get a more realistic view of what optometry is today, something I haven't heard from schools. My goal is to skimp through optometry school with as few student loans as possible (I would like to go to Indiana University School of Optometry), and maybe do a residency in Indianapolis, where I can live at home and save some money. I currently work in a research lab dealing with retinal disparities in patients with diabetes and macular degeneration and I love it. But I realize now that I am not going to get that 6-figure salary right off the bat that most people (including current opt students in my lab) think that they are going to have right after graduation. I will probably be working at Walmart to pay the bills for a while, but now I see the importance of networking and doing what I can now to eventually end up in a satisfying career one day. I am a little worried about the future of optometry at times, but I couldn't imagine doing anything else. I toyed with ophthalmology for a long time (even took the MCAT), but I keep coming back to optometry because I want to learn about the eye and only the eye and even if I make a lot less money, I am hopeful that optometry can make me happy.

Why do people resign themselves to the Walmart career path if that's not what they want? Why not network and research and do the things you need to do now or while you're in school so you DON'T end up at Walmart?

 

[Jason K]

I am a pre-optometry student and currently working on my application to optometry school. I really appreciated this thread because it helps me to get a more realistic view of what optometry is today, something I haven't heard from schools. My goal is to skimp through optometry school with as few student loans as possible (I would like to go to Indiana University School of Optometry), and maybe do a residency in Indianapolis, where I can live at home and save some money. I currently work in a research lab dealing with retinal disparities in patients with diabetes and macular degeneration and I love it. But I realize now that I am not going to get that 6-figure salary right off the bat that most people (including current opt students in my lab) think that they are going to have right after graduation. I will probably be working at Walmart to pay the bills for a while, but now I see the importance of networking and doing what I can now to eventually end up in a satisfying career one day. I am a little worried about the future of optometry at times, but I couldn't imagine doing anything else. I toyed with ophthalmology for a long time (even took the MCAT), but I keep coming back to optometry because I want to learn about the eye and only the eye and even if I make a lot less money, I am hopeful that optometry can make me happy.

Sounds like you're going about things in the right frame of mind. Keep your costs down and plan ahead as much as you can. Most of all, know what you're getting into before you start. If you know what you're getting into, and you're ok with it, then you may end up with a very satisfying career. I would give you one piece of advice, however. Make sure you are ok with commercial/retail for more than just a brief period. It may end up being much more of your career than you think. I think anyone entering the profession right now should basically plan on working in a commercial/retail setting after graduation and beyond. Sure, there will be some people who go elsewhere (VA, research, hospitals, and even some in PP) but if you're thinking, "I'll just do commercial until I find something better," you may be in for a surprise. The vast majority of grads these days are migrating into commercial/retail settings so that sector is growing exponentially while the other sectors are shrinking. Your desire to do research, if you choose to do that as a professional track, could work in your favor as that is certainly not a common path. Just make darn sure your ideas of what you want in terms of income, professional life, and daily routine are in line with the realities of what optometry offers now days. Too many applicants and students are thinking along the lines of (and this includes me when I was in school): "I'll be fine because I have what it takes to be successful. Those who are negative are just complaining because they're unsuccessful." It's a very dangerous way of thinking. Best of luck, wherever you end up going.

 

[robinchm]

Why do people resign themselves to the Walmart career path if that's not what they want? Why not network and research and do the things you need to do now or while you're in school so you DON'T end up at Walmart?

I was only saying that if I do work at Walmart or some other retail place, it wouldn't be the worst thing ever. Like I said immediately after that, I plan on doing the networking and everything, but I am not at all bothered by commercial optometry. I purposely shadowed an optometrist at Walmart and America's Best to see if it was something I could do, and it may not be the best option, but it would be fine for me.

 

[blaba]

Jason K, you've got my full respect - thank you for the insight into some objective (supply and demand forces) insights into optometry today. This is kinda 'the light at the end of tunnel' I was looking for... It seems like everyone else, including KHE, merely hammer away at the subjective/controllable aspects (like acknowledging/understanding the kind of work optometry entails), which are pretty much skills that can be developed by persistance and hard work (i.e. by anyone who tries in my opinion). However, macroecon forces are static and obviously beyond the control of individuals, so I BELIEVE its important to consider them when we choose a profession. And I guess for people who are simply 'passionate' about optometry, well... its not simply a matter of choice for them, is it?

I totally agree with you that, in general (I don't know of any exceptions), the return that optometry provides today is not what it was decades ago. In fact, ones that graduate these days probably make less, especially those that want to establish a private practice at some point. I have almost graduated myself from my university as a FINANCE major (just in case I don't get into optometry school, I have something to fall back on). Most of my peers in the business school are working jobs/have job offers. Because of how rigorous it was to do these business and science courses at the same time, I ended up applying late (currently on waiting list/standby list at PCO). I'm taking Microbio w/ lab this summer. I don't have an exact purpose to my post, so I'd just like to give thanks to the topic creator for sharing an original angle on optometry (to be more specific, thank you for sharing an angle of foreseeability)

 

[Jason K]

Jason K, you've got my full respect - thank you for the insight into some objective (supply and demand forces) insights into optometry today. This is kinda 'the light at the end of tunnel' I was looking for... It seems like everyone else, including KHE, merely hammer away at the subjective/controllable aspects (like acknowledging/understanding the kind of work optometry entails), which are pretty much skills that can be developed by persistance and hard work (i.e. by anyone who tries in my opinion). However, macroecon forces are static and obviously beyond the control of individuals, so I BELIEVE its important to consider them when we choose a profession. And I guess for people who are simply 'passionate' about optometry, well... its not simply a matter of choice for them, is it?

I totally agree with you that, in general (I don't know of any exceptions), the return that optometry provides today is not what it was decades ago. In fact, ones that graduate these days probably make less, especially those that want to establish a private practice at some point. I have almost graduated myself from my university as a FINANCE major (just in case I don't get into optometry school, I have something to fall back on). Most of my peers in the business school are working jobs/have job offers. Because of how rigorous it was to do these business and science courses at the same time, I ended up applying late (currently on waiting list/standby list at PCO). I'm taking Microbio w/ lab this summer. I don't have an exact purpose to my post, so I'd just like to give thanks to the topic creator for sharing an original angle on optometry (to be more specific, thank you for sharing an angle of foreseeability)

Thanks, blaba - glad you're reading! My point is to make people aware of another side of the story. As you stated, there are controllable and uncontrollable aspects to one's path in this profession. I think people today want to underestimate the uncontrollable and overestimate the controllable when they envision their future. As I always say, if you know what you're getting into before you start, you'll be much less likely to be disappointed with the results. Good luck.

 

[Jason K]

I was only saying that if I do work at Walmart or some other retail place, it wouldn't be the worst thing ever. Like I said immediately after that, I plan on doing the networking and everything, but I am not at all bothered by commercial optometry. I purposely shadowed an optometrist at Walmart and America's Best to see if it was something I could do, and it may not be the best option, but it would be fine for me.

I agree with the idea that networking and research, especially during school, will most definitely help someone minimize their likelihood of ending up at a WM, but let's face it, if you're in certain markets (LA, for example) you could spin your wheels for months or years and get nowhere. I have plenty of very experienced, highly trained, very personable OD friends who string together PT commercial contract work in LA, not because they want to, but because if you want to work in LA, that's what most people end up doing. It's easy to say, "Hey, just move to an unpopulated area where there's more need." Not everyone has the luxury of moving out of a given city. Sometimes, you're there and you can't look for work anywhere else. Are there people in the LA area who end up with more respectable jobs? Sure, they're probably folks who put out the effort to establish the networking connections you mentioned, in every case. But be certain that there are 100s of well-connected ODs who don't have those positions. If you line up 100 solid, experienced ODs, there's simply not enough room for all of them. A few get lucky and the rest end up at WM, Sam's JCPenny, etc.

 

[KHE]

Jason K, you've got my full respect - thank you for the insight into some objective (supply and demand forces) insights into optometry today. This is kinda 'the light at the end of tunnel' I was looking for... It seems like everyone else, including KHE, merely hammer away at the subjective/controllable aspects (like acknowledging/understanding the kind of work optometry entails), which are pretty much skills that can be developed by persistance and hard work (i.e. by anyone who tries in my opinion). However, macroecon forces are static and obviously beyond the control of individuals, so I BELIEVE its important to consider them when we choose a profession. And I guess for people who are simply 'passionate' about optometry, well... its not simply a matter of choice for them, is it?

I don't agree with that at all. If it were so easy to learn "those skills" then why do so many docs end up in Walmart or at the mall when their desire was always to have their own practice?

 

[thecgrblue]

I purposely shadowed an optometrist at Walmart and America's Best to see if it was something I could do, and it may not be the best option, but it would be fine for me.

So as long as the option isn't the best one, but gets the job done, you're okay with it? You sound like the OD that did my exam at Costco a few years ago.

 

[surfer120]

hmmm jason you bring about some excellent points. What in your opinion is worth it these days? pharmacy? im just curious because i actually did envision exactly what you said about practicing optometry or as KHE put it "medical optometry". I wasn't really aware that most OD's only do refractions now a days, i really should start shadowing more, the one office i shadowed had tons of medical equipment and did full exams and retina charts and everything, i was really happy to be there but i guess this isnt the case for the majority. **** i cant really see myself doing refractions all day lol, would you say that if i graduated with not 1 loan to my name i would have a much better chance of opening my own practice? making a lot more money? doing more then just refractions?

 

[Jason K]

hmmm jason you bring about some excellent points. What in your opinion is worth it these days? pharmacy? im just curious because i actually did envision exactly what you said about practicing optometry or as KHE put it "medical optometry". I wasn't really aware that most OD's only do refractions now a days, i really should start shadowing more, the one office i shadowed had tons of medical equipment and did full exams and retina charts and everything, i was really happy to be there but i guess this isnt the case for the majority. **** i cant really see myself doing refractions all day lol, would you say that if i graduated with not 1 loan to my name i would have a much better chance of opening my own practice? making a lot more money? doing more then just refractions?

I honestly don't have a good answer for you, I wish I did. I haven't researched enough about what is happening in the other health professions to know what's actually happening. I know dentists and physicians are not as happy as they used to be, either. If I had to guess, though, I'd say the dentists are probably doing better, on average, than new ODs or maybe even new MDs. Their training is 4 years to independence, just like ours and they have a much, much more independent profession with little competition from MDs or other professionals. I don't know though. You might go to the dental forums and find people up in arms there as well.

As for graduating without any loans. I'd say you'd have a lot less pressure to deal with, that's for sure. One could argue that you'd have a better shot at owning your own place than someone carrying a substantial debt load from the start. The problems with starting or buying an office these days go beyond the numbers, though. That being said, if you could find a good situation with the right doc who would be willing to stick around and work with you on a transition, and you were able to learn the ropes before taking it on by yourself, then you might be ok. Just know that the margin for error is much smaller now days than it used to be. Guys opening up 20 years ago could afford to make some mistakes in the learning process. I don't know if today's market would be so friendly to someone trying to learn as they go. We all know that when we come out of school, we have absolutely no idea what is involved in running a practice. The first step in being successful, in my opinion, is to realize that and take steps to work around it. Then again, I don't own my own office so maybe I'm completely clueless.

 

[OATAcer]

Good thread.

So hey Jason, and all the other people that are agreeing with Jason that Optometry is not a great investment, and that in the end you won't make as much, and have to work hard.

So tell me, what other career is worth the investment?

Medical school, same story.

Dental school, same story.

Pharmacy school, same story.

Any graduate school, you have to pay for your loans back! If you take it the easy way in life, your trapped, take it the hard way, and it will pay off.

 

[Jason K]

Good thread.

So hey Jason, and all the other people that are agreeing with Jason that Optometry is not a great investment, and that in the end you won't make as much, and have to work hard.

So tell me, what other career is worth the investment?

Medical school, same story.

Dental school, same story.

Pharmacy school, same story.

Any graduate school, you have to pay for your loans back! If you take it the easy way in life, your trapped, take it the hard way, and it will pay off.

'
No arguments for those three professions. I'm not sitting here saying, "I went to optometry school when I should have gone to dental, medical, or pharmacy." I can tell you that I have three friends who are dentists who graduated at the same time I did. While they too say that it is more difficult now than it was 10 years ago, they're not facing the same extreme pressures that we are in optometry, at least that's what they tell me. I can say with confidence that all three of those professions offer starting pay and job opportunities that exceed those of new OD grads. If someone has data to contradict that, I'm all ears. VA pharmacists start at a much higher salary than ODs hired in. As for medicine, I would never tell anyone that a career in medicine is a good idea, I figured that out before I applied to optometry school. And Pharm, from what I hear, is facing a lot of the same commercial problems that optometry is facing. Just because I and others are saying that optometry doesn't offer what it used doesn't mean that there's necessarily an implied sentiment that the other health care professions are on the side with the greener grass. What I can show you is a comparison of what the US government will offer to new pharmacists vs new optometrists. The following VA openings are posts taken from USAJobs:

Optometrist
SALARY RANGE:
$57,408.00 - $103,369.00 /year
OPEN PERIOD:
Tuesday, June 07, 2011 to Thursday, June 16, 2011
SERIES & GRADE:
GS-0662-01
POSITION INFORMATION:
Full Time Excepted Service Permanent
DUTY LOCATIONS:
1 vacancy - Hickory, NC
WHO MAY BE CONSIDERED:
US Citizens and Status Candidates

Pharmacist
SALARY RANGE:
$94,427.00 - $112,508.00 /year
OPEN PERIOD:
Wednesday, June 01, 2011 to Wednesday, June 15, 2011
SERIES & GRADE:
GS-0660-12
POSITION INFORMATION:
Full Time*Excepted Service Permanent
PROMOTION POTENTIAL:
12
DUTY LOCATIONS:
1 vacancy - Manchester, NH
WHO MAY BE CONSIDERED:
US Citizens and Status Candidate

Yes, I realize the pay grades are different. My point is to show that even the US government recognizes that pharmacist's services have more relative value than an optometrist, despite the fact that both professions are facing a perceived excess of practitioners. I was unable to find a single pharmacy job post that was lower in starting pay than those of optometry, at any pay grade level. Take a look for yourself and let me know if I'm wrong. I'm not telling anyone that pharmacy school is a better idea than an OD program, but looking purely at starting salary, they've got us beat by quite a bit, and they can't prescribe a single medication.

As far as your reference to the taking the hard road and having it pay off? I'm sorry, but you've just pissed off a lot of ODs out there who took the very hardest road and are now facing the reality that it didn't pay off. I truthfully hope that if you choose to go into optometry that you don't follow that path. It's easy enough to say you'll be fine and overcome multiple obstacles, some of which you're not even aware of right now. It's quite another to actually do it. No offense, but some of you pre-optometry posters have an amazing ability to make some of the most confident and often outrageous claims, and you're doing it from a standpoint with little or no real working knowledge of the profession.

 

[imemily]

Wow....there's a chance you wouldn't make enough money to pay off your loans whilst supporting your self as an Optometrist. On the contrary, the lowest salary for Pharmacists is a whopping 94K+...

 

[netmag]

Yes, pharmacist do make more on average starting out. But there are some caveats:

1.) Pharmacist salaries are fairly fixed. What you make when you first get in is about the same as you'll get as a seasoned pharmacist. In retail, you can make a bit more as a pharmacy manager (as well as a slightly larger bonus) but it is also a case of a lot more work for not much more pay. You pretty much would do it if you just wanted to have more control or thought it might look good on your resume if you wanted to move into corporate some day. In Optometry, you may be able to make close to the same if you work in a similar environment. However, Optometry also still has private practice which could net you more in the long run. That leads to point #2.

2.) Private practice pharmacy is pretty much non-existent. If you would like even the possibility of PP, then you can skip pharmacy. Optometry still has private practice. It may be in the early stages of changing to be more like pharmacy, but it's not anywhere near as decimated as PP pharmacy.

3.) People like to complain about Optometry oversupply but they should take a look at the Pharmacy forums here. The country has tons of pharmacy schools in every nook and corner. Schools that have never been heard of before have pharmacy divisions. Also, it has been noted that there are places where you simply can not get a pharmacy job right now. I tend not to get too caught up in the doom and gloom stuff but I do think that if you're going to compare the two that one would have to acknowledge that pharmacy may be no better (perhaps worse) in terms of the oversupply stuff.

4.) Working in pharmacy is not the same as working in optometry. That goes without saying but obviously you probably want to make sure you like the style of work that each profession does.

Lastly, just to be fair, if you look at the USAJobs listings, 5 of 10 pages for the Pharmacist job listings have about the same salary range as the Optometrist listings (in terms of the low starting point). So you can't really say that none of the pharmacy listings there start that low. However, I do wonder how they could have a salary range that wide for a single job listing.

I'm not really advocating optometry over pharmacy. I mean I do think that pharmacy is a better deal money wise especially if your primary concern is getting the better bang for your education buck. A pay rate at or near 100K+ is much closer to a guarantee with pharmacy. Just saying that there are other factors between the two that could weigh into the decision.

 

[Jason K]

Jason,

When did you graduate?

I finished my residency 5 years ago.

 

[Jason K]

......A pay rate at or near 100K+ is much closer to a guarantee with pharmacy. Just saying that there are other factors between the two that could weigh into the decision.

My only point was to point out that PharmDs starting out can expect a considerably higher starting income than ODs. I am not and would not advocate pharm over optometry since I really have relatively little knowledge of pharmacy as a profession beyond basic understanding of what they do and how they train.

 

[KHE]

I finished my residency 5 years ago.

What have you done since then? Where are you working? Where have you worked?

 

[Jason K]

What have you done since then? Where are you working? Where have you worked?

After finishing my residency, I worked FT for about 2 years in a private office that I worked in during my residency year. I liked the position from a quality of work perspective, the doc I worked for, and the staff, but the base pay was not sufficient to pay my student loans and other financial pressures (kids, mortgage, etc). I heard a lot of "Don't worry, man, just get to your bonus level and you'll get the extra income you need." Unfortunately, there was no way to get to that bonus level and, as a practice, we tried to increase revenue as much as possible. I did seminars, local community work, and involved myself as much as possible to try to bring in patients. It worked, to some extent, but it was not even close to what it needed to be. It just wasn't going to happen based on the number of patients coming though the door, the density of ODs/OMDs in the area, and the population of people out looking for a new doc. The city I live in has a net outflow of people so that doesn't help matters. I also didn't see a partnership offer coming any time in the next 5 years from what I could tell. Is it possible that things might have changed over the next few years? Of course, but bills don't wait several years to get paid. The practice owner wouldn't agree to lower the bonus level to a degree that would give me a serious shot at reaching a significant increase in pay and since he'd never hired an associate before me, I don't think he was working from realistic numbers. I looked into other offices in the surrounding area (as quietly as I could) and found that the going rate is the going rate for base pay, but other offices offered much better bonus structures. I could move to another office, but I'd certainly piss off my previous employer which would not have been a good thing for me and I would have really gained nothing in terms of income, other than a potential bonus which may or may not have worked in my favor. If I were single with no kids, things would been much different, but one has to manage risk. During those two years and some time beyond, I also worked PT as a clinical faculty member at an optometry school. I eventually left private practice for higher pay in a commercial setting, not because I had any desire, whatsoever, to leave private practice, but because I needed the extra income. Since leaving, I've worked in several different employed and contact commercial settings, some far more tolerable than others, but none even remotely satisfying in any way other than a pay increase. I would like to transition back into private practice and I've had several offers to do so, but all of them required a relocation that I cannot do due to my family situation as well as a dramatic pay cut. So, I'm here, enjoying commercial optometry and all of its benefits. I'll get out of this hole eventually, but it's a lot harder than it should be.

I should add, I'm not in Chicago, btw. One can't be too careful about listing their location on these things.

 

[KHE]

After finishing my residency, I worked FT for about 2 years in a private office that I worked in during my residency year. I liked the position from a quality of work perspective, the doc I worked for, and the staff, but the base pay was not sufficient to pay my student loans and other financial pressures (kids, mortgage, etc). I heard a lot of “Don’t worry, man, just get to your bonus level and you’ll get the extra income you need.” Unfortunately, there was no way to get to that bonus level and, as a practice, we tried to increase revenue as much as possible. I did seminars, local community work, and involved myself as much as possible to try to bring in patients. It worked, to some extent, but it was not even close to what it needed to be. It just wasn’t going to happen based on the number of patients coming though the door, the density of ODs/OMDs in the area, and the population of people out looking for a new doc. The city I live in has a net outflow of people so that doesn’t help matters. I also didn't see a partnership offer coming any time in the next 5 years from what I could tell. Is it possible that things might have changed over the next few years? Of course, but bills don’t wait several years to get paid. The practice owner wouldn’t agree to lower the bonus level to a degree that would give me a serious shot at reaching a significant increase in pay and since he’d never hired an associate before me, I don’t think he was working from realistic numbers. I looked into other offices in the surrounding area (as quietly as I could) and found that the going rate is the going rate for base pay, but other offices offered much better bonus structures. I could move to another office, but I’d certainly piss off my previous employer which would not have been a good thing for me and I would have really gained nothing in terms of income, other than a potential bonus which may or may not have worked in my favor. If I were single with no kids, things would been much different, but one has to manage risk. During those two years and some time beyond, I also worked PT as a clinical faculty member at an optometry school. I eventually left private practice for higher pay in a commercial setting, not because I had any desire, whatsoever, to leave private practice, but because I needed the extra income. Since leaving, I’ve worked in several different employed and contact commercial settings, some far more tolerable than others, but none even remotely satisfying in any way other than a pay increase. I would like to transition back into private practice and I’ve had several offers to do so, but all of them required a relocation that I cannot do due to my family situation as well as a dramatic pay cut. So, I’m here, enjoying commercial optometry and all of its benefits. I’ll get out of this hole eventually, but it’s a lot harder than it should be.

I should add, I'm not in Chicago, btw. One can't be too careful about listing their location on these things.

So what have you done in terms of trying to purchase a practice, or start one? Have you applied for any SBA loans? Have you applied to Matsco? Have you dealt with anyone looking to sell a practice?

 

[OATAcer]

Jason,

Education in America is expensive, period. I believe it's all about networking and connections. Let's say your in Optometry school, and you run into great Opthamologists, then go ahead and link up with them, pay off your loan in 4 years, and then go and rent a private office.

It's possible if you have the right people to work with you. Yes, it is a risk, but oh well, you live once, right?

 

[Jason K]

So what have you done in terms of trying to purchase a practice, or start one? Have you applied for any SBA loans? Have you applied to Matsco? Have you dealt with anyone looking to sell a practice?

I've looked into the possibility of a couple of associate to partner situations with a slow buyout. I'd be comfortable doing that since my risk is quite high due to my high debt and a slow transfer with some guidance would be lower risk. Unfortunately, they're in areas where I can't relocate to. I've tried to come up with a way to relocate, but it's just not going to happen. Applying for something like a 100% financed buyout or start-up would be ridiculous for someone in my situation, especially in my location, at least in my opinion. If I were single and could accept the risk, things would be different and I'd probably move to an area which could actually support another OD. I think if someone can move to a remote or rural location, they could probably do fairly well, even now. The market I'm limited to because of my family situation would be "sink or swim" and if I were to be on the sinking end of things, my family would pay the price. Granted, the market I'm in is probably worse than most, but it's not that much worse than most populated cities in the US. This ties into my core belief that optometry presents an undue uphill battle these days. In order to do what most people want to do, you have to assume risk, and it's always been that way for optometry. I would never argue that it was "easy" to start up or buy out 20 years ago. Any business is a risk and a challenge. The problem is that now, grads coming out of school typically have a debt load that increases their risk beyond what most people would consider manageable, especially with this economy, the state of the profession, and with the medical system being the way it is. If I had known I'd have to cart my family off to another planet in order to find good opportunities, I'd probably have considered other options. I would never say that no one coming out of school can possibly do well in optometry anymore, but in my opinion, the sacrifices necessary to make that a reasonable probability are not worth it.

 

[Veritas23]

Jason,

Education in America is expensive, period. I believe it's all about networking and connections. Let's say your in Optometry school, and you run into great Opthamologists, then go ahead and link up with them, pay off your loan in 4 years, and then go and rent a private office.

It's possible if you have the right people to work with you. Yes, it is a risk, but oh well, you live once, right?

OATAcer,

The Ophthalmologist I work for is in my opinion one of the more friendly ones, in terms of relationships with OD's, in the state I live in and does not pay them to what their loans are currently costing them as graduates from the past 6 or 7 years. They are basically over-glorified technicians and all of the major pathology is seen by him since the pathology is scheduled to him. They get the CL fits, refractions, and are not respected enough to have 15 minutes appointments through the use of technicians like he does.

Also, your "live once" ideology in my eyes seems like something that would lead someone to be more on the cautious side than to take a risk into what Jason is apparently saying is not a healthy "jump into the unknown". This is also just his opinion and you don't have to believe anyone you don't want to.

A last word to the wise as well, you might want to learn to spell Ophthalmologist before you start offering advice to an Optometry graduate (Jason K) since you are only a pre-Optometry student.

 

[Jason K]

What was your thought process when you decided to go to optometry school 10 years ago? Why did you decide against medical, dental, or other professional schools? What professions you did not consider at the time, but you wish you had?

What health professions would you recommend for students who cannot tolerate a very close contact with patients such as handling bodily fluids?

I wrote off med school early in college because it seemed like most MDs I spoke with told me to run as fast as I could in any other direction. I did not want to spend that much time, money, and sweat working for a career that I was not happy in (hmmmm...?) A lot of my friends did not follow that advice. Some of them are content with their careers in medicine, and some probably regret it more than I do my own decision to pursue an OD. As far as turning the other professions down, I probably would have chosen dentistry if I didn't have a pre-existing elbow injury that I was told by a couple of orthopedic surgeons would certainly not be compatible with a career in dentistry. Who knows, maybe I would have been fine, though. My main choices were MD, DDS, and OD. Optometry seemed to be ok based on the numbers I ran across and all two ODs I shadowed, neither of whom practiced in the real world. Let me be clear here, I did not do my due diligence. I wanted optometry to be something that it may or may not have been, but instead of ripping it apart like I did medicine and dentistry, I put my pre-optomery blinders on and chose to forge ahead. I am not blaming anyone but myself for choosing optometry - no one put a gun to my head. That doesn't change the fact that my perception of optometry is one that holds it as a profession which used to hold great potential for most grads coming out of school. The cost was in line with the payoff. I just don't think that can be said anymore for most new grads. Maybe you disagree, maybe you don't.

As far as other health professions for those people who don't want to get cooties from their patients, I have no idea. If you're going to be an OD, DDS, MD, DPM, DVM, RN or pretty much anything in the health-related world, you'd better be willing to get some nasty stuff on your hands once in a while - it's going to happen in any field. .......Alright, except maybe the PharmDs, those guys probably stay pretty clean

 

[Jason K]

OATAcer,

The Ophthalmologist I work for is in my opinion one of the more friendly ones, in terms of relationships with OD's, in the state I live in and does not pay them to what their loans are currently costing them as graduates from the past 6 or 7 years. They are basically over-glorified technicians and all of the major pathology is seen by him since the pathology is scheduled to him. They get the CL fits, refractions, and are not respected enough to have 15 minutes appointments through the use of technicians like he does.

Also, your "live once" ideology in my eyes seems like something that would lead someone to be more on the cautious side than to take a risk into what Jason is apparently saying is not a healthy "jump into the unknown". This is also just his opinion and you don't have to believe anyone you don't want to.

A last word to the wise as well, you might want to learn to spell Ophthalmologist before you start offering advice to an Optometry graduate (Jason K) since you are only a pre-Optometry student.

Veritas23,

Very true about the OMD pay and work quality. I've actually never worked directly in an OMD's office, at least for pay, but what you said is generally accurate from what I know to be the case for several ODs I know well. Working at an OMD's office is not where an OD goes to make himself a strong career or a lot of money, that's for sure. I have no idea where OATAcer might have gotten that idea from. If one assumes that because OMDs do well on average compared to ODs, then ODs who work for them must do the same, ummm.....no. In order to "pay off your loans in 4 years," as OATACer suggests, you'd have to find one hell of a high-paying position at an OMD's office - one that would provide you with about a 70K or 80K excess in income per year. (Let's not forget about taxes here, folks. You can't take all of your excess money and use it to pay loans, a good portion goes to Uncle Sam and the more you make, the more you pay. And, don't forget about interest, every month you're losing ground since you pay interest on your balance. What that translates to is a need to make a huge excess of income in order to be able to overpay to the point you'd be paid off in 4 years. If anyone knows of a position, anywhere in optometry, that can provide that kind of income, let me know. In an OMD setting, you'll just about never get ownership in the practice either. You're there to take the refractive load off surgeons so they can do what they do best - operate.

As for the ophthalmologist spelling error by OATAcer, I'd like to give him/her the benefit of the doubt. I type pretty fast and I'm sure I have typos here and there. But if there's one word that you never, ever.........ever want to misspell in optometry, it's "ophthalmology." Do that in a personal statement in an OD application and you can be pretty sure your application will quickly find its way to the shredder!

 

[OATAcer]

Veritas23,

Yes, I spelt "Ophthalmologist" incorrect, it happens, it's just a forum. I'm just stating my opinion and your like offended over just a forum Lol

I said, I agree with Jason and then your trying to start an argument. I'm a positive person that's why I stated those positive quotes. This posting was posted to discuss why optometry isn't a good investment. Doesn't matter if I am pre-optometry, optometry or licensed, I'm no less than you nor any other doctor.

OATAcer,

The Ophthalmologist I work for is in my opinion one of the more friendly ones, in terms of relationships with OD's, in the state I live in and does not pay them to what their loans are currently costing them as graduates from the past 6 or 7 years. They are basically over-glorified technicians and all of the major pathology is seen by him since the pathology is scheduled to him. They get the CL fits, refractions, and are not respected enough to have 15 minutes appointments through the use of technicians like he does.

Also, your "live once" ideology in my eyes seems like something that would lead someone to be more on the cautious side than to take a risk into what Jason is apparently saying is not a healthy "jump into the unknown". This is also just his opinion and you don't have to believe anyone you don't want to.

A last word to the wise as well, you might want to learn to spell Ophthalmologist before you start offering advice to an Optometry graduate (Jason K) since you are only a pre-Optometry student.

 

[Bioflare]

Interesting, it seems like this thread has compiled a lot of things against Optometry. I'll just add to the pit of doom.

2 years community college = Pharmacy tech you make 10-15K less than a Pharmacist, degree costs you 10K max.

Pay 2000$ for DB2 / Oracle Database certification tests and pass. Become a database admin for a small company. 100K base and chill while the Databases are working. (Does not require a bachelor's degree).

A born salesmen? Able to pitch an idea to anyone, take the CFP (certified financial planner) exam for 500$, make sales at a bank or brokerage. 60K-250K if you are a decent salesman 100K base + 50K bonus average. (Bachelor's degree required but could be a art history major for all they care).

I like this thread, it has its uses. Scare prospective Optometry students away = reduce the saturation problem (every little bit counts) and helps those that can't bother to do some research consolidate what they are getting themselves into. If they thought the profession was rainbows and butterflies then they need a slap of reality and this thread is it.

Cheers!

PS: This is the internet, even if this is a professional(s) forum we don't have to know how to spell stuff correctly, nor do we have to obligation to.
ɔɐu ʎon nupǝɹsʇɐup ɯʎ lǝǝʇuǝss¿

 

[Jason K]

Jason,

Education in America is expensive, period. I believe it's all about networking and connections. Let's say your in Optometry school, and you run into great Opthamologists, then go ahead and link up with them, pay off your loan in 4 years, and then go and rent a private office.

It's possible if you have the right people to work with you. Yes, it is a risk, but oh well, you live once, right?

I said, I agree with Jason and then your [Veritas23] trying to start an argument. I'm a positive person that's why I stated those positive quotes. This posting was posted to discuss why optometry isn't a good investment. Doesn't matter if I am pre-optometry, optometry or licensed, I'm no less than you nor any other doctor.

OATAcer,

This is a student forum so I think I speak for most, if not all ODs on here, when I say that you and other students' opinions (pre-optometry and optometry) are no less important than the ODs who post. In fact, you could probably argue that yours are more important. However, you have to realize that when you come on here as someone with little or no experience in the field, and post "fatherly" advice to a practicing optometrist, you're only going to reinforce your apparent cluelessness about the profession. Stating that one could solve all of their optometric financial woes by going to work for an OMD is no more ridiculous than telling someone that they can pay off their home mortgage early if they simply go down the street to the convenience store, buy a lottery ticket, and win the lottery.

I don't mean to be blunt here, but your post about going to work for an OMD highlights the very reason I posted this thread. There are many (not all) pre-optometry students out there who are completely clueless about what the profession entails in terms of realities involving pay and practice mode after graduation. You're very correct about the networking reference, that holds true for just about any profession. But if you have any thoughts of going to optometry school, networking, linking up with an OMD, and then paying off your student loans in 4 years, please erase those thoughts from your mind. They are totally unfounded in reality.

 

[Jason K]

PS: This is the internet, even if this is a professional(s) forum we don't have to know how to spell stuff correctly, nor do we have to obligation to.
ɔɐu ʎon nupǝɹsʇɐup ɯʎ lǝǝʇuǝss¿

Maybe, except for any form or derivative of the word "ophthalmology." Sorry, dude, if you come on here and miss that first "h" it sends shivers up everyone's spine.

Also, screwing up "you're" and "your." I know, who cares on a forum like this, right? But if it's done on here, it's done in professional correspondence. I disagree that we don't have to "know" how to spell things correctly. We do. We're professionals and we should hold ourselves to a higher standard. If you send something out with a typo, it makes you look sloppy. If you send something out with a blatant spelling error, it makes you look stupid. It just makes the author look bad, whether it's an OD, MD, DDS, whatever. It's not that hard to stick to basic grammar and spelling, but you're right, on an internet forum, it takes a back seat to the ideas behind the information.

 

[Shnurek]

2 years community college = Pharmacy tech you make 10-15K less than a Pharmacist, degree costs you 10K max.

I like this thread, it has its uses. Scare prospective Optometry students away = reduce the saturation problem (every little bit counts) and helps those that can't bother to do some research consolidate what they are getting themselves into. If they thought the profession was rainbows and butterflies then they need a slap of reality and this thread is it.

OK I don't know about your other claims but Pharmacy Technicians do not make 10-15k less than Pharmacists.


If we use BLS.gov as a source: "Median hourly wages of wage and salary pharmacy technicians in May 2008 were $13.32." which is equivalent to $27,705 a year. http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos325.htm

while pharmacists: "Median annual wages of wage and salary pharmacists in May 2008 were $106,410" http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos079.htm

That is a ~80k difference not 10k-15k so don't pull numbers out of your a**



And sure you can make 100k in any other field but remember in the fields that do not require such a higher education as optometry there are selective processes in other forms. It can be through competition for the position, strict testing standards, or insane workload, etc.

 

[Bioflare]

Maybe, except for any form or derivative of the word "ophthalmology." Sorry, dude, if you come on here and miss that first "h" it sends shivers up everyone's spine.

Also, screwing up "you're" and "your." I know, who cares on a forum like this, right? But if it's done on here, it's done in professional correspondence. I disagree that we don't have to "know" how to spell things correctly. We do. We're professionals and we should hold ourselves to a higher standard. If you send something out with a typo, it makes you look sloppy. If you send something out with a blatant spelling error, it makes you look stupid. It just makes the author look bad, whether it's an OD, MD, DDS, whatever. It's not that hard to stick to basic grammar and spelling, but you're right, on an internet forum, it takes a back seat to the ideas behind the information.

Well it's true people should know the differences, but then again there are a lot of people that might want to pursue a certain professional field and English might not be their first language. English is easy enough to learn the conversational aspects of, but when transitioning to written form it is quite easy to have a grammar mishap. And with regards to correspondence I would think they would take the time to put it through a word processor with some degree of grammar checking (it's not that easy to make one). But yes, everyone on SDN and regardless of where they are should practice proper grammar and spelling.

OK I don't know about your other claims but Pharmacy Technicians do not make 10-15k less than Pharmacists.


If we use BLS.gov as a source: "Median hourly wages of wage and salary pharmacy technicians in May 2008 were $13.32." which is equivalent to $27,705 a year. http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos325.htm

while pharmacists: "Median annual wages of wage and salary pharmacists in May 2008 were $106,410" http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos079.htm

That is a ~80k difference not 10k-15k so don't pull numbers out of your a**



And sure you can make 100k in any other field but remember in the fields that do not require such a higher education as optometry there are selective processes in other forms. It can be through competition for the position, strict testing standards, or insane workload, etc.

I'm talking about salaris in Canada, not the US, although this thread is mainly about Optometry in the US. My buddy just secured a hospital position pays $34/hr with 8 hour shifts, although that may not be the norm as stated in this thread earning $100,000USD is not the norm for Optometrists. That is from personal experience. So I'm going to apologize for giving the american readers false information. Actually this thread should be labeled pertinent mainly to practicing in the US and maybe Ontario Canada, as Waterloo grads usually saturate the major cities there.

Once again if you feel like I'm trolling you... I apologize, but I'm not pulling numbers out of my ass. I've worked in the tech sector as an intern, and I know how much they make. I'm just saying since this thread discusses the idea of considering alternatives I merely presented some. If you or anyone reading this are in Optometry to actually help people then money is a nice result of those actions and you wouldn't give a **** about this thread and its content. That being said, there are people in this forum that think Optometry is easy money making field that allows you to have a beautiful pretty clinic and make tons of money, those are the main target of this thread and ones that would do better to not pursue Optometry in the first place.

 

[KHE]

I've looked into the possibility of a couple of associate to partner situations with a slow buyout. I'd be comfortable doing that since my risk is quite high due to my high debt and a slow transfer with some guidance would be lower risk. Unfortunately, they're in areas where I can't relocate to. I've tried to come up with a way to relocate, but it's just not going to happen. Applying for something like a 100% financed buyout or start-up would be ridiculous for someone in my situation, especially in my location, at least in my opinion. If I were single and could accept the risk, things would be different and I'd probably move to an area which could actually support another OD. I think if someone can move to a remote or rural location, they could probably do fairly well, even now. The market I'm limited to because of my family situation would be "sink or swim" and if I were to be on the sinking end of things, my family would pay the price. Granted, the market I'm in is probably worse than most, but it's not that much worse than most populated cities in the US. This ties into my core belief that optometry presents an undue uphill battle these days. In order to do what most people want to do, you have to assume risk, and it's always been that way for optometry. I would never argue that it was "easy" to start up or buy out 20 years ago. Any business is a risk and a challenge. The problem is that now, grads coming out of school typically have a debt load that increases their risk beyond what most people would consider manageable, especially with this economy, the state of the profession, and with the medical system being the way it is. If I had known I'd have to cart my family off to another planet in order to find good opportunities, I'd probably have considered other options. I would never say that no one coming out of school can possibly do well in optometry anymore, but in my opinion, the sacrifices necessary to make that a reasonable probability are not worth it.

So because you're risk adverse and are limited by a desire to live in a super saturated area, the sacrifices aren't worth it?

 

[Veritas23]

Veritas23,

Yes, I spelt "Ophthalmologist" incorrect, it happens, it's just a forum. I'm just stating my opinion and your like offended over just a forum Lol

I said, I agree with Jason and then your trying to start an argument. I'm a positive person that's why I stated those positive quotes. This posting was posted to discuss why optometry isn't a good investment. Doesn't matter if I am pre-optometry, optometry or licensed, I'm no less than you nor any other doctor.

The point here, OATAcer, is that there is absolutely no right or wrong answer. You are correct in that you or I are no more right or wrong in this thread, that's what it's here... to debate the benefits and potential pitfalls of investing $250,000 and $250,000 of lost income over four years into a degree that might only pay $80,000 after multiple years of experience in the field.

I was not trying to start an argument or belittle you, merely pay devil's advocate in a thread meant for such discussion.

After perusing your older posts I see you looking for ways into schools that "have the lowest accepted student gpa's", having a very low GPA yourself, and asking about newer schools as to "give more students a chance to go to Optometry schools". All three of these things are signs that you and I obviously have different backgrounds and what may seem like a fantastic investment and dream to you, in terms of the natural talent and intelligence you and I were born different with, may not be to others.

Again, there is no right or wrong answer. If Optometry is your dream and you want to absolutely throw yourself at it because you know it is what you want to do - regardless of what type of investment it is - by all means do it! I'd be happy for you. Especially if you will feel that you have gotten there by tough means of overcoming a low GPA and possibly retaking courses. Do so, but do so with the knowledge and advice (taken with electronic grains of salt you can find) from people who have been through OD programs, years of practice, and been in your shoes before. I think they are the reason we have this forum, not to get advice - other than OAT prep - from other Pre-Opts.

My two cents.

 

[Jason K]

So because you're risk adverse and are limited by a desire to live in a super saturated area, the sacrifices aren't worth it?

I don't think I'm overly risk adverse, I'm just not crazy enough to open a practice or buy one in a city in which I'll be competing against 3 other ODs, 2 OMDs, a WalMart, Pearle, 2 Lenscrafters, and an America's Best, all within viewing distance of my waiting room. (Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating a little here.) It's so easy for someone to simply think "I'll just be a better doctor, I'll have a bigger smile, and people will come." If a market is saturated enough, they don't. If they do, it may take years to build a patient base that can support the practice to a level that is needed to survive. I've seen three of my classmates go down within two years after starting (2 bought, 1 opened cold). They all had glowing enthusiasm at the start, but the realities of finances set in and if the business is there, great. If it's not, you're in trouble.

If you go to any city in the US where most people would consider it a "nice place to live," there's going to be heavy saturation. The exceptions would be rural areas which some people are drawn to. So, overall, in my opinion, for the average person going through school right now, the expense (money and time) is simply not worth it. Maybe for some who have a goal of moving to a rural area, optometry may turn out to be a good career choice. I don't think any newer docs are going to be making a "killing" anymore like some older ODs have, but you could probably live pretty comfortably. People in rural areas are also much less likely to head into the local lenscrafters if and when it pops up. As I've said before, I don't think an OD is a waste for absolutely everyone, but for the majority of students going through programs right now, the payoff will be disappointing, in my opinion.