Is optometry school a good investment?

[KHE]

I don't think I'm overly risk adverse, I'm just not crazy enough to open a practice or buy one in a city in which I'll be competing against 3 other ODs, 2 OMDs, a WalMart, Pearle, 2 Lenscrafters, and an America's Best, all within viewing distance of my waiting room. (Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating a little here.) It's so easy for someone to simply think "I'll just be a better doctor, I'll have a bigger smile, and people will come." If a market is saturated enough, they don't. If they do, it may take years to build a patient base that can support the practice to a level that is needed to survive. I've seen three of my classmates go down within two years after starting (2 bought, 1 opened cold). They all had glowing enthusiasm at the start, but the realities of finances set in and if the business is there, great. If it's not, you're in trouble.

See, that I do NOT agree with. In my experience, the number of other providers in an area is very low on the list of variables that makes a successful practice. I've practiced in three states, and in both rural and urban situations. I've seen a whole slew of practices who are the "only game in town" and they are DYING. I've seen a whole slew of practices who are surrounded by all kinds of competition and they are thriving and growing.

You're right....it's not just about being a "better doctor" or having a "bigger smile." But it IS about the experience. People think we are in the business of curing glaucoma or making people see better. We are not. We are in the business of providing an experience. You have to create an environment and an experience to which people wish to come and more importantly, in which they wish to give you money.

If you go to any city in the US where most people would consider it a "nice place to live," there's going to be heavy saturation. The exceptions would be rural areas which some people are drawn to. So, overall, in my opinion, for the average person going through school right now, the expense (money and time) is simply not worth it. Maybe for some who have a goal of moving to a rural area, optometry may turn out to be a good career choice. I don't think any newer docs are going to be making a "killing" anymore like some older ODs have, but you could probably live pretty comfortably. People in rural areas are also much less likely to head into the local lenscrafters if and when it pops up. As I've said before, I don't think an OD is a waste for absolutely everyone, but for the majority of students going through programs right now, the payoff will be disappointing, in my opinion.

Heavy saturation is not the issue. There are private practices all over New York, Los Angeles etc. etc. who are thriving. Is it harder to get going in those areas? Perhaps in some ways. But again....in New York and Los Angeles there are hundreds of hotels. Heavy saturation of hotels, you might say. And there are some that charge $700 a night. Why? How do they get away with that when across the street there is a hotel that charges $60 a night? Why do people go there when they could stay at the Comfort Inn?

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[Jason K]

See, that I do NOT agree with. In my experience, the number of other providers in an area is very low on the list of variables that makes a successful practice. I've practiced in three states, and in both rural and urban situations. I've seen a whole slew of practices who are the "only game in town" and they are DYING. I've seen a whole slew of practices who are surrounded by all kinds of competition and they are thriving and growing.

Heavy saturation is not the issue. There are private practices all over New York, Los Angeles etc. etc. who are thriving. Is it harder to get going in those areas? Perhaps in some ways. But again....in New York and Los Angeles there are hundreds of hotels. Heavy saturation of hotels, you might say. And there are some that charge $700 a night. Why? How do they get away with that when across the street there is a hotel that charges $60 a night? Why do people go there when they could stay at the Comfort Inn?

I totally agree with you that saturation is not the only issue in the setting you referred to, but that applies when you're talking about existing practices. Sure, even where I practice, there are several large, established practices that do extremely well. There are also countless 1 doc PP and commercial practices that survive and probably do well by their own standards. And, like you said, there are practices without heavy competition that do poorly because of poor management, a bad/unfriendly doc, etc. But I'm not referring to a randomly chosen existing practice in a saturated city. I'm talking about a new or newer grad hoping to start a practice / buy a practice in a saturated market. No one can tell me, with any degree of seriousness, that a new grad opening cold in LA has a reasonable shot at survival. Might they survive? Maybe. Are they going to prosper in a reasonable amount of time? Probably not. Take 50 new grads who start cold in LA and tell me how many you think would be around in 5 years. Compare that to the number that would have survived 20 - 30 years ago. That's what I'm getting at, averages, what the typical OD student can look ahead and have as realistic expectations if they put the time and effort in. Not what could be possible with incredible luck and unusual circumstances.

Regarding the hotel reference, how many new, private $60/night hotels do we see popping up in places like LA? Not many. The ones that are around have big names and they've been there a long time. To use your comparison, how hard would it be for a private, non-franchised or non-corporate hotel/motel to open in the midst of a sea of similar hotels offering the same or better services? That's why they don't exist there - no one is crazy enough to compete. Might they survive if they offer some unusual level of service? Maybe, but is it worth the risk? Probably not. That's why you see private little hotel/motels out far away from saturated competition. They have competition, but it's far less than they'd put up with if they were in a place like LA proper or any of its surrounding communities.

Again, I'm not claiming that every OD out there in PP is drowning in despair. Many are doing very well. Some are doing extremely well. Those are the folks who current applicants look at and think "I can do that." Can they? I'm talking about what newer grads can expect to get back from their professional sacrifices. Anyone on here with an OD knows that the majority of currently successful entrenched practices around today were born in a very different time. The number of thriving PP in the US is going to be a lot smaller in 15 years. I'd put money on that.

 

[Shnurek]

No, optometry is not a good monetary investment.

 

[MSUpreop]

i can't speak for everyone, but my father is an optometrist and he hasn't had too hard of time breaking into the private practice industry. his total PROFIT last year was well over 100,000 and it is only his 5th year on private practice (i have seen the tax statements). I believe the reason for his success is his friendly service, his connect to the community, his professional-looking office and his experienced staff. almost every time I walk into another office, it is dirty, outdated and unfriendly. It usually has some weird optometrist with a creepy stare and the personality of a cardboard box. my father has no problem competing with the big-box store. We meet 1-800-contacts price on contacts and we offer our patients rebates that 1-800-contacts ca't offer because they aren't a member of visionsource.

So in all reality, I believe that optometry is about what you make it. Also, the lifestyle is great. My father can almost always take a week off for vacation in the off season.

 

[Tippytoe]

I love these forums. My daddy make a ba-zillion dollars a year and he saved 1,000 people from dying last year by catching catallacs in their eyes. And, oh yea, he drives a Bentley and has a driver names Jeeves.

Gotta love the internet, where anybody in their underwear in their basement can make a 'profound contribution to society'. Duh, da, duh!

On to a serious subject. Jason K knows what he's talking about.

You will ONLY succeed in optometry if you are a "people person" or have the Oscar-winning ablity that many of us have to be great actors. I don't give a crap about some old lady's upcoming knee surgery or some welfare mom's latest baby-daddy saga. But as an optometrist, every single dollar bill........errr......I mean patient is precious.

Unlike most type of doctors (and second only to quack chiropractors), you will have to WOW every one of them because you need a constant supply of eyes coming in your office. They won't come based on automatic referrals from family docs or because you are the only game in town OR EVEN BECAUSE YOU ARE THE BEST DAMN CLINICIAN ON THE PLANET !

They will be coming either because you take their crappy insurance OR.....wait for it..............You were nice to their aunt Gertrude giving her free nose-pads because you are afraid she won't come back if you charge her $10 for them.

As an optometrist you're 50% car salesman ( I guess you can chose to be a used car salesman or a new car salesmen if it makes you feel any better) ..............all day, every day. You have to be. But don't feel bad, plastic surgeons are 90% car salesmen (just saw a cheezy 'buy one/bring a friend' boob job ad in the locker room of my local gym). Some OMDs are even worse--now giving away free Ipads or some other gadget if you have lasik 'by July 31st'. I always catch myself waiting for a reincarnated Billy Mayes to break in their commercials with "wait, there's more. If you schedule a surgery within the next 10 minutes.....because you know we can't offer this deal all week long....you'll get two nipple piercings at no extra charge". Some of those guys are just pathetic. But I digress....

A good part of your or your staffs day.....every day, will be spent explaining why your contacts cost $0.50 than the superoptical down the road or online and printing up spec and CLs rxs because they are $0.50 cheaper.

It's a good job...........if you like brain dead work. Imagine explaining presbyopia 10 times per day, every working day (and to curious others) for the rest of your life. Extrapolate that out: That's about 2,400 times per year. So over a 40 yr career you will explain---just presbyopia almost 100,000 times. Even more fun >> explaining astigmatism. And I haven't even tried to calcuate how many "one or two" phrases I will utter over all those years-- what comes after a trillion again?

 

[Shnurek]

It's a good job...........if you like brain dead work. Imagine explaining presbyopia 10 times per day, every working day (and to curious others) for the rest of your life. Extrapolate that out: That's about 2,400 times per year. So over a 40 yr career you will explain---just presbyopia almost 100,000 times. Even more fun >> explaining astigmatism. And I haven't even tried to calcuate how many "one or two" phrases I will utter over all those years-- what comes after a trillion again?

Heh, internists must explain that when patients have colds that there are no antibiotics that can help them. And the patients get mad because they doctor didn't prescribe them anything. I wonder how many thousands of times they have to do this. And when things get interesting, they have to refer. The only difference between optos and internists is that optos treat the eyes, get paid less, but have to go through 3 years less of training.

And if you don't like explaining things a million times then give them a sheet titled: What is presbyopia?

Just curious, what profession would you have chosen if you could do it all over again?

 

[Tippytoe]

Heh, internists must explain that when patients have colds that there are no antibiotics that can help them. And the patients get mad because they doctor didn't prescribe them anything. I wonder how many thousands of times they have to do this. And when things get interesting, they have to refer. The only difference between optos and internists is that optos treat the eyes, get paid less, but have to go through 3 years less of training.

And if you don't like explaining things a million times then give them a sheet titled: What is presbyopia?

Just curious, what profession would you have chosen if you could do it all over again?

A sheet titled 'presbyopia'. Wow. Why didn't I ever think of that? Friend my office has just about every optometric technology known to man including electronic medical records which prints a personal diagnostic sheet for each patient. Doesn't matter. They want the doctor to describe it (3 times). If you don't, you are an ******* and they might leave you for the guy 3 blocks down that has 1963 lime green exam equipment and wood paneling in his office.........but he's "nice" and has a mounted singing fish on his wall.

You see, as an OD, you are completley interchangable. You are an object, not a person. If you don't do exactly as your patient/customer wants, WHEN THEY WANT IT, they will simply drive a block down the road to the next hungry, struggling OD who will give in to them for the promise of $35 from an insurance company 2 months from now.

There is no loyalty. Patients see you as a "thing" to write a CL Rx so that 1-800 will fill-it (when they even bother to require an Rx).

Optometry and Internal Medicine Docs alike: Not quite. The difference between internists and optometrists (besides the schooling) is that there is a dire NEED for internists and optometrists......well, I guess we have covered that. Internist treat everything (they want to) while optometrists are limited to two, 2 inch spheres and some quasi "VISION" psychology.

There is such a need for huge need internists (ie you will never have to beg for patients) that physician assistant schools are popping up all over the country to fill the void. So that's not a great analogy but I get your point about repetition. But that said, I would never want to be an internal medicine or family doc. They have it TOUGH and don't make much more than optometrists for all the hassle they have to deal with.

By far, of all the medical specialities, dentistry is the way to go. Oh, I know they have their problems too. But they have TWO things that NO OPTOMETRIST WILL EVER HAVE:

(1) There are no 'Tooth MD's (not sure why really)
(2) They have been very succesful thus far at controlling dental insurance plans.

 

[Jason K]

By far, of all the medical specialities, dentistry is the way to go. Oh, I know they have their problems too. But they have TWO things that NO OPTOMETRIST WILL EVER HAVE:

(1) There are no 'Tooth MD's (not sure why really)
(2) They have been very succesful thus far at controlling dental insurance plans.

I have to say, I totally agree here. I have several dental friends and none of them can relate to crap going on in optometry. As you said, dentistry has its issues, all professions do, and I hear about those issues from them, but the grass is definitely greener on their side for the reasons you mentioned, and others. Anyone who says that all health professions are suffering right now and therefore, they're all equal in terms of ROI is not grounded in reality.

 

[Shnurek]

There used to be Tooth MD's - stomatologists in the early 20th century, but they got replaced by dentists.

 

[Jason K]

There used to be Tooth MD's - stomatologists in the early 20th century, but they got replaced by dentists.

Didn't know that.....interesting, though. Who knows, maybe they'll try and take it back some day. Right now, just about the only physicians who do anything directly in the mouth are DDS/MDs or DMD/MDs who practice oral surgery.

 

[KHE]

I totally agree with you that saturation is not the only issue in the setting you referred to, but that applies when you're talking about existing practices. Sure, even where I practice, there are several large, established practices that do extremely well. There are also countless 1 doc PP and commercial practices that survive and probably do well by their own standards. And, like you said, there are practices without heavy competition that do poorly because of poor management, a bad/unfriendly doc, etc. But I'm not referring to a randomly chosen existing practice in a saturated city. I'm talking about a new or newer grad hoping to start a practice / buy a practice in a saturated market. No one can tell me, with any degree of seriousness, that a new grad opening cold in LA has a reasonable shot at survival. Might they survive? Maybe. Are they going to prosper in a reasonable amount of time? Probably not. Take 50 new grads who start cold in LA and tell me how many you think would be around in 5 years. Compare that to the number that would have survived 20 - 30 years ago. That's what I'm getting at, averages, what the typical OD student can look ahead and have as realistic expectations if they put the time and effort in. Not what could be possible with incredible luck and unusual circumstances.

I do not live in LA so I do not know how many new grads would survive in a cold start. I would say that any new grad however could survive and thrive with proper planning and a well thought out business plan. Is that a guarantee? Of course not, but what industry is?

The fact that it's harder now as compared to 20 years ago is one of those things that it makes no sense to rail against because it is what it is. There isn't a darn thing you can do about it. And in many ways, it's NOT harder. People grouse about vision plans and medical plans etc. etc. but one thing that they DO accomplish is they can get people into your practice quickly. It's not like 20 years ago you just threw open doors and had patients start streaming through them. You had to get them in there. It's much easier to get patients through the doors these days. Now, the reimbursement situation can be an issue but again....a well thought out plan and a thorough understanding of your market will give you as a good a chance of success as any.

Regarding the hotel reference, how many new, private $60/night hotels do we see popping up in places like LA? Not many. The ones that are around have big names and they’ve been there a long time. To use your comparison, how hard would it be for a private, non-franchised or non-corporate hotel/motel to open in the midst of a sea of similar hotels offering the same or better services? That’s why they don’t exist there - no one is crazy enough to compete. Might they survive if they offer some unusual level of service? Maybe, but is it worth the risk? Probably not. That’s why you see private little hotel/motels out far away from saturated competition. They have competition, but it’s far less than they’d put up with if they were in a place like LA proper or any of its surrounding communities.

Again, I don't live in LA but when I visit, I see all sorts of independent hotels all over the place. Are they "new?" I don't know how long they've been there.

Again, I'm not claiming that every OD out there in PP is drowning in despair. Many are doing very well. Some are doing extremely well. Those are the folks who current applicants look at and think "I can do that." Can they? I'm talking about what newer grads can expect to get back from their professional sacrifices. Anyone on here with an OD knows that the majority of currently successful entrenched practices around today were born in a very different time. The number of thriving PP in the US is going to be a lot smaller in 15 years. I'd put money on that.

Trust me, if you go back through my postings you'll see that I've been as negative as anyone about the profession. There are plenty of issues facing it. But I firmly believe that any young graduate can make it in any market with a well thought out plan regardless of their student loan debt level.

 

[KHE]

You will ONLY succeed in optometry if you are a "people person" or have the Oscar-winning ablity that many of us have to be great actors. I don't give a crap about some old lady's upcoming knee surgery or some welfare mom's latest baby-daddy saga. But as an optometrist, every single dollar bill........errr......I mean patient is precious.

Unlike most type of doctors (and second only to quack chiropractors), you will have to WOW every one of them because you need a constant supply of eyes coming in your office. They won't come based on automatic referrals from family docs or because you are the only game in town OR EVEN BECAUSE YOU ARE THE BEST DAMN CLINICIAN ON THE PLANET !

As an optometrist you're 50% car salesman ( I guess you can chose to be a used car salesman or a new car salesmen if it makes you feel any better) ..............all day, every day. You have to be. But don't feel bad, plastic surgeons are 90% car salesmen (just saw a cheezy 'buy one/bring a friend' boob job ad in the locker room of my local gym). Some OMDs are even worse--now giving away free Ipads or some other gadget if you have lasik 'by July 31st'. I always catch myself waiting for a reincarnated Billy Mayes to break in their commercials with "wait, there's more. If you schedule a surgery within the next 10 minutes.....because you know we can't offer this deal all week long....you'll get two nipple piercings at no extra charge". Some of those guys are just pathetic. But I digress....

All of that is basically true. But embracing it rather than being annoyed by it is the key. Many times on here you'll see pre-opt and optometry students say things like "optometry is what you make of it." I've never really agreed with that. I've always felt that optometry happiness comes from being comfortable with what optometry makes of YOU.

The most important thing I think that students looking to go into private practice need to understand is that they are not in the business of curing glaucoma or pink eye or making people see better. They are in the business of providing a great patient experience. And that experience goes way beyond simply making someones IOP go from 30 to 17 and doing it with a smile on your face.

It's a good job...........if you like brain dead work. Imagine explaining presbyopia 10 times per day, every working day (and to curious others) for the rest of your life. Extrapolate that out: That's about 2,400 times per year. So over a 40 yr career you will explain---just presbyopia almost 100,000 times. Even more fun >> explaining astigmatism. And I haven't even tried to calcuate how many "one or two" phrases I will utter over all those years-- what comes after a trillion again?

That's largely true as well. After 11 years in the business I figure I've probably done well over 30,000 eye exams. At this stage of the game, I've gotten all the jokes down, the routine down etc. etc. In fact, I say to my wife (who is also an OD) that I often feel like you could be slapping me in the face while I"m doing th exam and I could do just as good a job as if I wasn't being slapped because I've done it so many times.

You have to find satisfaction in other aspects of the job, I believe.

 

[Shnurek]

Also depending on state law you can get a tech to do the "boring" stuff no? Simple refractions, tonometry, BCVA check? I mean that's what I do for the retinologist currently but it might be different under an optometric license. I do all the diagnostic testing, put it up on the monitor inside the exam room and all she does is the non-routine interesting stuff such as EXPLAINING the condition to the patient which ~60% of them have AMD. I'm sure that gets just as boring as explaining presbyopia so quit whining. This is what a doctor does and is supposed to do.

As a funny side note I spoke to an optometrist that works in the same building with LASIK OMDs in a family business and he basically said:
1) I am the most overpaid optometrist ever.
2) In NJ I have access to anything I'd ever really need as an OD.
3) I can do my job in my sleep.

 

[Shnurek]

Honestly, if you want to do more in your profession then either move to a state with more lenient laws for ODs or help push the profession to produce a surgical residency. The dentists did it with oral - maxillofacial surgeons. Now is the best time to do it federally. Obamacare is storming in.

 

[Jason K]

But I firmly believe that any young graduate can make it in any market with a well thought out plan regardless of their student loan debt level.

Sorry, man. I just don't agree on this point. There are many markets in which a new grad, or just about anyone opening cold, even with the best business plan on the planet, would go down in flames. My whole standpoint is that optometry no longer provides the reasonable possibility of success that a degree costing 150K to 200K should. Should there be a guarantee? No, of course not. But when spending that kind of money, you shouldn't have to feel like your gambling at the blackjack tables in Vegas. I don't care who it is or how much guidance they have, a new grad trying to open cold in LA or places like it, would be foolish because the odds of success are definitely way out of balance. Could someone succeed? I can't say absolutely not, but what is the likelihood of success, that's what I'm getting at. If the degree cost 5K, the whole situation would be different. If you nosedive after loading 200 or 300K on top of a 200K debt level, you'll never bounce from that, ever. It's the likelihood of success that has diminished and that's what I think people should be aware of.

Regarding the hotel comparison. The fact that most of them are old and established (I can say this because I grew up in LA) is comparable to old and established ODs. They are all doing very well. It's the new ones that run into trouble, just like ODs.

Again, I'm not saying that there is absolutely no way to earn a decent living in optometry any more for new grads. The possibilities are still there, but they're muted compared to what most people entering the profession are expecting and the excess of ODs virtually guarantees that there will be many more unhappy ODs for each happy one. There's simply not enough room for everyone to "find a good seat in the theater." In my graduating class, most people were in-state students. About 80% relocated to other states within 12 mos of graduating and most of them took commercial positions. That doesn't sound like a profession that's paying it's graduates back the way they had intended, particularly when my school's negative attitude towards commercial optometry is considered. I can assure you that no one in my class was planning on graduating into a commercial position when they finished, and yet, there they are.

 

[blaba]

But I firmly believe that any young graduate can make it in any market with a well thought out plan regardless of their student loan debt level.

A well thought out plan takes in doses of reality, objective figures like student debt and competition among ODs and other doctors.

Plus, a 'well thought out plan' is simply a given, kinda like telling someone to try their best

 

[Tippytoe]

Okay, probably my last post on this "fascinating" topic because I have nothing else to offer.

My main problem......really perhaps my only problem, with optometry is that I am in a field that is simply not really needed. It's a profession that was created by bribery of politicians over time. Fact is ophthalmology (via increased residency programs and the use of trained techs) and opticianary (via an associate degree) could do EVERYTHING an optometrist does today.

It's an unncecssary profession 'squeezed' into the middle of two other professions where there really was no need.

If I had to do it again, I'd chose a health profession where there is a true need. One where patients NEEDED TO SEE ME more than I NEEDED THEM TO SEE ME. We just lost one of our few endocrinologist here locally. Pts are turned away from there other endocrinology practice because that practice is simply too swamped.

* Our hospital is begging to get another neuro-surgeon in the area because the 3 others we have are refusing to keep seeing the volume they have currently.

* We have 2 or 3 dermatologists and they are booked up for 8-10 months. One is not accepting new patients.

* Family docs will not accept a new patient until they "interview" them by having them fill out a 30 page history booklet deeming themselves worthy of being their patient.

Think you will ever see an OD not accepting new patients? NEVER. Will you see ODs begging patients for 'walk -ins' any time with big signs in their windows offering BOGO deals. Yep. All the time. You will be practically BEGGING people to come your office and they you will have to BEG them to buy something.

Today in the newspaper there is an ad for Vision Works-- an optical chain with an always a happy, grinning refractionist OD next door-- They have an ad for TWO PAIRS of PROGRESSIVE GLASSES FOR $99! It costs me about $99 wholesale for ONE PAIR!

As an OD, you simple are not needed. There are too many. That's a fact! There are too many used car lots here too but I imagine if you wanted to bad enough, you could eek out a living by opening up another used car lot.......but it won't be fun. Same with optometry.

 

[Shnurek]

Optometry is unique in America and it is what it is. If you go to medical school and you want to become an ophthalmologist, you will always face problems with people confusing you as optometrists and optometrists taking your job duties away from you. So its not fun on either front.

I just want to make the most of what it is. I am actually a controversy seeking person (as you might have noticed from my eccentric post history) and personally I believe optometry can pave the way for revamping of the medical education system. As medicine is become more and more specialized there is no longer the need for general medical students to learn so much extraneous information pertaining to other fields. OB/GYN rotation? For what? I have heard this from medical students and medical graduates themselves. You can spend a lifetime learning about the eyes for example.

It is what it is and my advice is to make the most of it.

 

[imemily]

Okay, probably my last post on this "fascinating" topic because I have nothing else to offer.

My main problem......really perhaps my only problem, with optometry is that I am in a field that is simply not really needed. It's a profession that was created by bribery of politicians over time. Fact is ophthalmology (via increased residency programs and the use of trained techs) and opticianary (via an associate degree) could do EVERYTHING an optometrist does today.

It's an unncecssary profession 'squeezed' into the middle of two other professions where there really was no need.

If I had to do it again, I'd chose a health profession where there is a true need. One where patients NEEDED TO SEE ME more than I NEEDED THEM TO SEE ME. We just lost one of our few endocrinologist here locally. Pts are turned away from there other endocrinology practice because that practice is simply too swamped.

* Our hospital is begging to get another neuro-surgeon in the area because the 3 others we have are refusing to keep seeing the volume they have currently.

* We have 2 or 3 dermatologists and they are booked up for 8-10 months. One is not accepting new patients.

* Family docs will not accept a new patient until they "interview" them by having them fill out a 30 page history booklet deeming themselves worthy of being their patient.

Think you will ever see an OD not accepting new patients? NEVER. Will you see ODs begging patients for 'walk -ins' any time with big signs in their windows offering BOGO deals. Yep. All the time. You will be practically BEGGING people to come your office and they you will have to BEG them to buy something.

Today in the newspaper there is an ad for Vision Works-- an optical chain with an always a happy, grinning refractionist OD next door-- They have an ad for TWO PAIRS of PROGRESSIVE GLASSES FOR $99! It costs me about $99 wholesale for ONE PAIR!

As an OD, you simple are not needed. There are too many. That's a fact! There are too many used car lots here too but I imagine if you wanted to bad enough, you could eek out a living by opening up another used car lot.......but it won't be fun. Same with optometry.

Just shut up, please. Your constant bickering is so pathetic, especially when you have zero facts to back up your claims.

Why not try to become a worthy OD or expand your practice if you have one, instead of attempting to sway away applicants ?

 

[KHE]

Sorry, man. I just don't agree on this point. There are many markets in which a new grad, or just about anyone opening cold, even with the best business plan on the planet, would go down in flames. My whole standpoint is that optometry no longer provides the reasonable possibility of success that a degree costing 150K to 200K should. Should there be a guarantee? No, of course not. But when spending that kind of money, you shouldn't have to feel like your gambling at the blackjack tables in Vegas. I don't care who it is or how much guidance they have, a new grad trying to open cold in LA or places like it, would be foolish because the odds of success are definitely way out of balance. Could someone succeed? I can't say absolutely not, but what is the likelihood of success, that's what I'm getting at. If the degree cost 5K, the whole situation would be different. If you nosedive after loading 200 or 300K on top of a 200K debt level, you'll never bounce from that, ever. It's the likelihood of success that has diminished and that's what I think people should be aware of.

Jason, please name me ANY profession or college degree, in the health fields or not where you can waltz into any saturated market...New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Miami and just make a relatively easy go of it. Name me ANY profession where established businesses don't have an easier time. Every college degree is expensive. Teachers can spend tens of thousands of dollars on masters degrees and get jobs paying $32,000 a year to start out at.

The point is that in optometry as in life you basically have choices....you can deal with the situation you're in to the best of your ability, you can MOVE to a better opportunity or you can wallow in your misery and bemoan the fact that your "family commitments" won't let you move. I can guarantee you if you live in a hypersaturated areas there are practices for sale. They may not be posted on some website but you CAN find private practices for sale in any large city.

Again, I'm not saying that there is absolutely no way to earn a decent living in optometry any more for new grads. The possibilities are still there, but they're muted compared to what most people entering the profession are expecting and the excess of ODs virtually guarantees that there will be many more unhappy ODs for each happy one. There's simply not enough room for everyone to "find a good seat in the theater." In my graduating class, most people were in-state students. About 80% relocated to other states within 12 mos of graduating and most of them took commercial positions. That doesn't sound like a profession that's paying it's graduates back the way they had intended, particularly when my school's negative attitude towards commercial optometry is considered. I can assure you that no one in my class was planning on graduating into a commercial position when they finished, and yet, there they are.

Well thankfully they had the sense to MOVE.

You can either get busy living or get busy dying.

 

[Tippytoe]

Just shut up, please. Your constant bickering is so pathetic, especially when you have zero facts to back up your claims.

Why not try to become a worthy OD or expand your practice if you have one, instead of attempting to sway away applicants ?

We can talk again when you graduate high school and move out of your mom's house.

 

[Tippytoe]

http://www.optometric.com/article.aspx?article=105737

 

[DrSpontaneouz83]

OMG this topic has been BEATEN to death. Long story short, optometry is career with many ups and downs, like many other careers. Yes, most of the net income depends on sales from CLs, glasses, and routine eye exams with a strong emphasis in retail sales versus clincial pathology. Yes, it is a career manipulated by medical panels and anti-OD OMDs who are hovering over restricting ocular management. Yes, you will have a ton of loans to pay back and may start off flipping lenses in a phoropter all day when you first start out. Yes, you may go home and hate your life because you should have gone to be a pro athlete making tons of $$$$ compared to your salary.

At the end, some people will be happy with that result and others may find themselves complaining on SDN many years later. So I strongly encourage people to get involved in their career and try to make a difference rather than whining. If the grass is greener on the other side...then WATER YOU'RE OWN lawn!!!

 

[Farcus]

Yes, pharmacist do make more on average starting out. But there are some caveats:

1.) Pharmacist salaries are fairly fixed. What you make when you first get in is about the same as you'll get as a seasoned pharmacist. In retail, you can make a bit more as a pharmacy manager (as well as a slightly larger bonus) but it is also a case of a lot more work for not much more pay. You pretty much would do it if you just wanted to have more control or thought it might look good on your resume if you wanted to move into corporate some day. In Optometry, you may be able to make close to the same if you work in a similar environment. However, Optometry also still has private practice which could net you more in the long run. That leads to point #2.

2.) Private practice pharmacy is pretty much non-existent. If you would like even the possibility of PP, then you can skip pharmacy. Optometry still has private practice. It may be in the early stages of changing to be more like pharmacy, but it's not anywhere near as decimated as PP pharmacy.

3.) People like to complain about Optometry oversupply but they should take a look at the Pharmacy forums here. The country has tons of pharmacy schools in every nook and corner. Schools that have never been heard of before have pharmacy divisions. Also, it has been noted that there are places where you simply can not get a pharmacy job right now. I tend not to get too caught up in the doom and gloom stuff but I do think that if you're going to compare the two that one would have to acknowledge that pharmacy may be no better (perhaps worse) in terms of the oversupply stuff.

4.) Working in pharmacy is not the same as working in optometry. That goes without saying but obviously you probably want to make sure you like the style of work that each profession does.

Lastly, just to be fair, if you look at the USAJobs listings, 5 of 10 pages for the Pharmacist job listings have about the same salary range as the Optometrist listings (in terms of the low starting point). So you can't really say that none of the pharmacy listings there start that low. However, I do wonder how they could have a salary range that wide for a single job listing.

I'm not really advocating optometry over pharmacy. I mean I do think that pharmacy is a better deal money wise especially if your primary concern is getting the better bang for your education buck. A pay rate at or near 100K+ is much closer to a guarantee with pharmacy. Just saying that there are other factors between the two that could weigh into the decision.

Its unfortunate that hard times have hit all the professions. A third year pharmacy student just to give my 2 cent.

1)Pharmacy pay is relative static, usually 110k+, and by 10+year you'll be lucky to get 120-135k. My number aren't exact but it just goes to show you don't get much of a raise unless you're the director of pharmacy at a hospital or pharmacy manager, in which case +15/20k but the responsibilities... ehh not worth it. My numbers are from the latest government statistics on pharmacy employment as of 2010 may. I'm sure there is one for OD as well.

2)It could be my short sight about the situation, I often am and especially since I'm not in real practice as of yet but I don't think the PP of pharmacy is as nonexistent as you say. Well at least in Florida it is not that bad I actually see quite a good bit of PP to which even I am surprised. One of our professor owns a PP and lets just say he's pretty well off but he's an old timer +65/70 age so he's an exception.

3)Having nothing to compare or rather not knowing the oversupply of OD, I will just say that the oversupply of PharmD is just WTH. There is currently about 269k PharmD/BPharm currently working in US and some experts say we're on verge of actual oversupply if the new schools and new grad churning continues. I think there is over 120 College of Pharmacy in the states and they're still trying to get new ones every year. This not only drop the standard of new candidate but lowers our profession as a whole. I think jason put it very clearly that the schools are out there to sell a product and all they really care is the paper they get from you. Most graduates do get jobs as of right now but that doesn't mean they're all getting full times most get 30-35hr paid on per hour base.

4)I am not sure what a OD does on a daily base but I am 60-70% sure that most would not like what a regular PharmD does on a daily base. 65-70% of most pharmacist work in chains(WG, CVS,Riteaid, etc) and basically you just get very angry patients yelling at you/throwing a fit/cussing/disrespecting you as to why it takes so GOD DAMN LONG TO COUNT PILLS. I wouldn't go into the details but there is a lot more that goes on then counting pills, as matter of a fact most pharmacist DO NOT COUNT PILLS, Pharm Tech/Interns(me) COUNT PILLS. The other 30% is mostly hospital/clinical pharmacy that usually requires residency to get a foot in, with small % in to LTC(long term care facility/nursing home) and Consulting pharmacist.

My point is that pharmacist is no better than OD in the current situation. The only plus side is we usually make 100k once we get out. I don't know of anyone that doesn't make 100k unless they're not getting enough hours in. I do think dental would be the best choice right now, they come out making a lot, pretty much all PP, same amount of schooling unless you do residency. Dental specialty actually allows you to EARN MORE than a GP, while at least in pharmacy clinical pharmacist in hospital generally make 5-10k less than retail, but all within the 100k. MD is nice that is another can of worms that is not worth typing in the current context.

Oh yeh gone are the days where we get a sign on bonus or even a BMW just for signing on lol.... wishful thinking

here is the latest for OD http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291041.htm

actually as an investment I heard some say PA-C is a very lucrative profession. You'll always be working under an MD/DO but less responsibility, less time put in, you get to Rx, and if you go into specialty like surgery its easy 100k but i don't know much about PA-C so...

 

[Jason K]

OMG this topic has been BEATEN to death. Long story short, optometry is career with many ups and downs, like many other careers. Yes, most of the net income depends on sales from CLs, glasses, and routine eye exams with a strong emphasis in retail sales versus clincial pathology. Yes, it is a career manipulated by medical panels and anti-OD OMDs who are hovering over restricting ocular management. Yes, you will have a ton of loans to pay back and may start off flipping lenses in a phoropter all day when you first start out. Yes, you may go home and hate your life because you should have gone to be a pro athlete making tons of $$$$ compared to your salary.

At the end, some people will be happy with that result and others may find themselves complaining on SDN many years later. So I strongly encourage people to get involved in their career and try to make a difference rather than whining. If the grass is greener on the other side...then WATER YOU'RE OWN lawn!!!

Water my own lawn? When the “lawn” is a barren wasteland of rocks and dust, watering it will get a few weeds and some scattered blades of grass. Then everyone will gather around those few weeds and blades and sing happy optometry songs about how wonderful the profession is.

Optometry is not worth the expense. That has been my only claim since the beginning, and it stands. Is pharmacy better? Does it really matter? I don’t really care what pharmacists are doing. I’m not a pharmacist and I have no information to share with pre-pharm students, they can go to the pharmacy forum for that (Netmag). I’ve never come on here and claimed that X health profession is better than optometry. Everyone is different and some might like or dislike aspects of the various fields in terms of day-to-day activities. Personally, I don’t have a problem with the routine aspects of real primary care optometry. I do have a problem with glorified refracting opticianry, which is what many new OD grads are sent out to do, but that’s beside the point. I can tell you that many, even non-doctoral health professions will provide starting pay that would allow grads to actually pay their loans back without having to go on IBR. Is that asking too much of your profession? Asking for the average grad to be able to actually pay for his/her loans without losing ground every month on IBR? From a cost standpoint, optometry is as expensive or more expensive than other health care professions, and yet the payout to new grads on the lower end of the scale. Please, spare me the statements about “It’s not all about money.....It’s about helping people....” I’m not out to make a fortune. If I were, I’d never have chosen optometry. I went into optometry for balance, which I don’t believe to be there for those entering the profession now.

Balance, from a professional standpoint, is being able to graduate and have a decent shot being able to pay your loans every month. I’m talking about actually paying real money every month. Most new OD grads can’t do that because 65-80K is not enough, particularly as a contractor, so they go on IBR. Why are the default rates so low? Because most people refinance to 25 or 30 year term and then go on IBR. That’s great! No one is in default! Yay! Hey, wait a minute, why is my balance increasing every month even though I’m making my IBR payments? “Oh, don’t worry about that, that’s nothing. Just keep focusing on what matters. Don’t think about that money stuff, it’s not important. Optometry is not about money so if your principal keeps climbing, just pretend it’s not and keep moving.” Here’s a thought, what would the results be if we surveyed the percentage of new grads that end up on IBR for the various health professions; MD, DDS, DMD, PharmD, OD, DPMs, etc. Who would like to bet on which of those listed professions has the lowest income and highest percentage on IBR for new professionals? Could it possibly be optometry? I wonder. And yet, oddly enough, the degrees all cost about the same. Would anyone care to form an argument that of the degrees I just listed, an OD is not the lowest paying of the group, on average, certainly for newer professionals? Hmmmm....I guess, if I’m right, then from an investment standpoint, that would make an OD......wait for it.......the lowest, in terms of ROI, especially for new grads. Wow, doesn’t that somehow relate back to the original question posted for this thread?

Professional balance is being able to put your time in, graduate, and have a reasonable choice in terms of location and type of practice. How many major cities in the US could a new grad move to and have a reasonable likelihood of getting a decent associate position with fair pay? Anyone? If things are so great for new grads and I’m just being overly pessimistic, why are most new grads funneling unwillingly into commercial PT contract jobs? Is it just that newer ODs don’t want to go into PP? Maybe that’s it. People just really want to go into commercial optometry and that’s why they’re all going in that direction. I don’t know why I didn’t think of that. I guess optometry really is just an excellent return on investment.

Professional balance is about entering your profession and not feeling like you have to go hunting for some well-hidden gem that the vast majority of your classmates won’t find. It’s about leaving school and having your degree work as hard for you as you did for it. Anyone who puts the money and time into an expensive degree like an OD, and then expects nothing in return, is gullible. You’re also the reason that for-profit professional schools are making billions of dollars each year from student loans. Pay a huge sum, and then just take what you get, no complaining.

There is little balance for ODs who are entering the profession now, in my opinion. There used to be, but it’s gone. If you’re an OD and you don’t recognize that because you graduated at a time when an OD cost half of what it does now or even less and you’re nice and cozy in your practice, I really don’t give a warm, soft pile. If you’re a current OD student and you choose to only look at the happy rainbows optometry provides, more power to you, you’re better off doing that anyway if it gets you through your program. If you’re a pre-optometry student and you read this thread and you don’t recognize that there is a problem with the profession from a return standpoint, c’mon in, the water’s great. But, if you’re a pre-health student and you’re looking for what most people are probably looking for when they choose a profession like optometry, maybe you’ll stop and think twice before signing up for a couple of hundred grand in student loans. Maybe optometry is the right choice for you and maybe it isn’t, but at least you’ll stop and give it some thought. Those are the only people I care to reach. If this thread is left in place, then the info will be there and it will only add to other reality doses on the internet. Why not go to “optometry sucks?” Because everyone there already knows optometry sucks, otherwise, they wouldn’t be there. This thread was posted for people who are looking for the truth about the profession. There’s info on here that goes to both extremes and some even down the middle. So, applicants, it’s up to you. Do your own research and make your decision. Talk to new grads and those a few years out along with those ODs with gray hair and get as many opinions as you can. But if you choose to stick your head in the sand and ignore all the negativity, you may find yourself wishing you would have gone in another direction after you graduate. What direction that might be, I can’t answer.

 

[Jason K]

Jason, please name me ANY profession or college degree, in the health fields or not where you can waltz into any saturated market...New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Miami and just make a relatively easy go of it.

I have never claimed that any profession provides an “easy waltz into a saturated market.” For the 500th time, I’m not on here saying, optometry is a bad investment so you should do X. I don’t know what “X” is. It’s different for everyone. Maybe you have a fascination with teeth so dentistry is it, maybe you’re obsessed with eyes so optometry is it regardless of the realities, maybe you have a foot fetish so a DPM is the answer. But if you’re after more than just a personal interest in the subject matter you’re studying (eyes, teeth, feet, etc), then you’d better know what’s coming before you choose the profession. That is the only claim I have ever made. All of the others, have been made for me. If you’re ok with dropping 200K into an OD, coming out, and struggling for 6-12 months to find enough PT work to pay your bills, then fine. Go for it. If you look into the field and see how the commercial side of the profession is growing far faster than PP can keep up, then fine, go for it. Go get an OD. If you are ok with the fact that you’ll probably have to move far, far away from your family in order to find a FT job, fine. Go get that OD. Telling me that teachers spend money on their degrees only to get out and make low salaries has no bearing on the question posed at the outset of this thread. I don’t care about other professions, the only one I’m making claims about is the one I’m in.

The point is that in optometry as in life you basically have choices....you can deal with the situation you're in to the best of your ability, you can MOVE to a better opportunity or you can wallow in your misery and bemoan the fact that your "family commitments" won't let you move. I can guarantee you if you live in a hypersaturated areas there are practices for sale. They may not be posted on some website but you CAN find private practices for sale in any large city.

When did I claim that there were no practices for sale in large cities? Of course there are. Does it make sense for a new(er) grad to buy that practice, all things considered? I don’t think so. Maybe you disagree and that’s fine. I think there are some CFPs out there who would probably side with me on that if they had the whole picture.

What do most new grads relocate to when they have to leave their home state? The one’s I know relocated to commercial chain positions and/or PT strings for WM, Sam’s, JCPenny, etc. If that sounds appealing to you, then go for the OD. If it doesn’t, you might want to think twice.

All I have ever claimed is that optometry is, in my opinion, not worth the time or money required to get it these days. If you disagree with that, I really don’t care. That’s your right. In fact, maybe for you, it was worth the investment. For many, many practicing ODs out there right now, it was absolutely worth their investment.

Well thankfully they had the sense to MOVE.

You can either get busy living or get busy dying.

Most of them had the “good sense” to move out of state to a commercial position? How does that solve the problem? One of my main points here is that optometry currently has limited career options after graduation, with commercial being the major option for the majority of grads. Being forced to move out of state to a job you don’t want doesn’t sound too appealing.

 

[Shnurek]

Plenty of people bitch on the internet. Check out this "PhD is a waste of time" thread: http://www.postgraduateforum.com/threadViewer.aspx?TID=18665

 

[KHE]

When did I claim that there were no practices for sale in large cities? Of course there are. Does it make sense for a new(er) grad to buy that practice, all things considered? I don’t think so. Maybe you disagree and that’s fine. I think there are some CFPs out there who would probably side with me on that if they had the whole picture.

If there are practices for sale, you're crazy to not buy one. You can make all the excuses in the world why it's a bad idea, but at the end of the day you're in no better shape. If you're lost in the forest, you can either start walking to try to get out of the forest or you can just sit where you are and hope to God someone comes by to rescue you.

I would suggest starting to walk.

I don't like to divulge too much personal information on here but I'll tell you this...

I too live in a saturated area. And I too live here because of family considerations. (my wife's family, really.) I practice in Connecticut which has outrageous real estate prices, outrageous state income taxes, and outrages property taxes.

I finished residency in 2001. I languished in a few bad situations for a few years in a few different states. After taking some time OFF from practicing optometry I bought a practice 4 years ago (about a year before the economy tanked) and I paid $600,000 for it. Between my house and my student loans and my wife's student loans I was in for over a MILLION dollars. I had very little savings.

I make a multi multi six figure income income. It's going to paid off in 3 years and then it's easy street. That's even WITH the economy in the toilet. I'm surrounded by competition. Walmart is LITERALLY NEXT DOOR TO MY OFFICE. Like you could walk out my front door and walk into Walmart 90 seconds later.

Students out there....trust me when I say this to you......no one had it worse than me. Virtually no one had as much debt. Virtually no one was as limited to where they could practice as me.

And yet here I am making more than most physicians.

And here's the most important part....

I'M NOT THAT SMART! I don't have a Wharton MBA. I don't have ANY MBA. I wasn't some sort of business guru who knew everything there was to know about P&L statements, marketing, capitalization etc. etc. etc. Just a regular OD.

So you can wallow in the self pity you see on here (and I've been guilty of plenty of self-pity myself) or you can get busy building the career you envision for yourself, yes, even in a "saturated" area.

What do most new grads relocate to when they have to leave their home state? The one’s I know relocated to commercial chain positions and/or PT strings for WM, Sam’s, JCPenny, etc. If that sounds appealing to you, then go for the OD. If it doesn’t, you might want to think twice.

It doesn't sound appealing at all. What I would suggest those people do is relocate to that state, work commercial for 6-12 months, learn the market their in and then start or buy a practice of their own.

Most of them had the “good sense” to move out of state to a commercial position? How does that solve the problem? One of my main points here is that optometry currently has limited career options after graduation, with commercial being the major option for the majority of grads. Being forced to move out of state to a job you don’t want doesn’t sound too appealing.

It's only the option for the majority of grads because the majority of grads simply don't have the wherewithal to make something happen for themselves. I think that getting a diploma is enough. Well it's not. And it's not that way in ANY field. Health, law, business...you name it.

So again, you can either get busy living and figure out a way to get the career you envision for yourself or you can get busy dying and spend your day thinking "woe is me.....I have to live in a big city and there's nothing I can do about it. I guess I'll keep spinning and grinning for $350 per day." for all eternity.

 

[DrSpontaneouz83]

Water my own lawn? When the "lawn" is a barren wasteland of rocks and dust, watering it will get a few weeds and some scattered blades of grass. Then everyone will gather around those few weeds and blades and sing happy optometry songs about how wonderful the profession is. [/B]

Jason, what I was referring to is if you are unhappy with your current situation, then find something different; whether it is within your own field or another. There isn't a nail in your coffin per se, and if you perceive your profession as disappearing, then abandon ship. Do I recommend bailing out when things are tough? No. If anything, those are times that show character, personality, and innovation to branch out and tap into other resources (go the extra mile...and yes, it may be tiring to put on a one man show for every patient, but you have to do what you have to do).

No offense to the career of optometry, but as much as it is a lot of work, it is not impossible. I never walked into this career and thought...geez..I killed myself for this degree, now I expect the red carpet treatment after graduation with limitless patients, $150 eye exams, free weekends, and paying off my $180K student loans in 5 years. There are plenty of professionals that have worked hard for their degrees and the payout is minimal (lawyers, social workers, teachers, veterinarians, etc).

I am almost positive if commerical optometry was not a factor in some of the problems faced today in the fied, there would be something different to complain about. For example PP ODs would begin complaining that too many students are graduating and there is now an over supply of private pracitces. Then another thread would open on SDN relating to how PP's cannot be successful because other PP ODs are charging lower fees for better patient retention...and it will go on and on and on. Bottom line, eveything is going to come down to competition with other companies or within ourselves. No career promises you a HAPPY life...that is up to the individuals capacity to network himself under advantageous and disadvantageous circumstances.

 

[Jason K]

If there are practices for sale, you're crazy to not buy one. You can make all the excuses in the world why it's a bad idea, but at the end of the day you're in no better shape. If you're lost in the forest, you can either start walking to try to get out of the forest or you can just sit where you are and hope to God someone comes by to rescue you.

I would suggest starting to walk.

I don't like to divulge too much personal information on here but I'll tell you this...

I too live in a saturated area. And I too live here because of family considerations. (my wife's family, really.) I practice in Connecticut which has outrageous real estate prices, outrageous state income taxes, and outrages property taxes.

I finished residency in 2001. I languished in a few bad situations for a few years in a few different states. After taking some time OFF from practicing optometry I bought a practice 4 years ago (about a year before the economy tanked) and I paid $600,000 for it. Between my house and my student loans and my wife's student loans I was in for over a MILLION dollars. I had very little savings.

I make a multi multi six figure income income. It's going to paid off in 3 years and then it's easy street. That's even WITH the economy in the toilet. I'm surrounded by competition. Walmart is LITERALLY NEXT DOOR TO MY OFFICE. Like you could walk out my front door and walk into Walmart 90 seconds later.

Students out there....trust me when I say this to you......no one had it worse than me. Virtually no one had as much debt. Virtually no one was as limited to where they could practice as me.

And yet here I am making more than most physicians.

And here's the most important part....

I'M NOT THAT SMART! I don't have a Wharton MBA. I don't have ANY MBA. I wasn't some sort of business guru who knew everything there was to know about P&L statements, marketing, capitalization etc. etc. etc. Just a regular OD.

So you can wallow in the self pity you see on here (and I've been guilty of plenty of self-pity myself) or you can get busy building the career you envision for yourself, yes, even in a "saturated" area.




It doesn't sound appealing at all. What I would suggest those people do is relocate to that state, work commercial for 6-12 months, learn the market their in and then start or buy a practice of their own.



It's only the option for the majority of grads because the majority of grads simply don't have the wherewithal to make something happen for themselves. I think that getting a diploma is enough. Well it's not. And it's not that way in ANY field. Health, law, business...you name it.

So again, you can either get busy living and figure out a way to get the career you envision for yourself or you can get busy dying and spend your day thinking "woe is me.....I have to live in a big city and there's nothing I can do about it. I guess I'll keep spinning and grinning for $350 per day." for all eternity.

KHE,

You graduated 11 years ago and you're comparing yourself to today's graduates? I'm not saying you had it easy, no one who has a successful practice has it easy. But how many of your classmates went right into commercial vs how many end up there now? I don't have an exact answer to that question, but I think we'd both have to agree that it's a much higher number today. You can point out exceptions here and "Oh, this one guy makes 7 million per month at his practice and he's in between 12 Walmarts....." It doesn't change that fact that the ROI, for the average OD grad today, is not what it should be given the cost.

As for telling people they're crazy for not just going out and buying a practice if it's available? That kind of blanket recommendation is irresponsible, in my opinion. Sorry, but it is. Your opinion holds some weight on this forum, and maybe rightly so, but suggesting that everyone should go out and purchase a practice if they want to, regardless of their financial situation and experience level is crazy. You made of a go of it and it worked out for you. That's great for you. When people make that kind of investment, they need to think about risk vs reward. What if you opened today as a new grad and it didn't work? How bad would the consequences be to be 600K "in the hole" plus your student loans? What would you tell a new grad who came out of school, tripled or quadrupled his debt load to buy an office, and then tanked because he/she was in over their head? You can't come back from that. My claim is that optometry used to provide a secure environment to start a practice. Was there risk? Of course there was risk. That risk is too high today, given all the pressures and problems with the profession and the added complexity of running a practice today vs 20 years ago. Just because you managed to make things work 4 years ago, to me, is completely irrelevant. It's not about this guy or that guy, it's about what large numbers of grads are doing and can expect to be able to do.

 

[KHE]

KHE,

You graduated 11 years ago and you’re comparing yourself to today’s graduates? I’m not saying you had it easy, no one who has a successful practice has it easy. But how many of your classmates went right into commercial vs how many end up there now? I don’t have an exact answer to that question, but I think we’d both have to agree that it’s a much higher number today. You can point out exceptions here and “Oh, this one guy makes 7 million per month at his practice and he’s in between 12 Walmarts.....” It doesn’t change that fact that the ROI, for the average OD grad today, is not what it should be given the cost.

When I finished residency in 2001, I was offered a position to take over the struggling clinic a company that does laser eye surgery in Las Vegas. In August of 2001, my wife (also an OD) and I moved out there. We had no family, no friends, nothing out there. We went out there looking for a bit of adventure and thought it would be kind of fun.

A month after I started, the terrorist attacks happened and Las Vegas SHUT DOWN. 400,000 people were laid off. My already struggling clinic went bankrupt in like 2 months. I was unemployed. Two weeks after that, my wife came home from her job and told me that she had been laid off as well. So there we were, 5 months out of residency, 3000 miles from home both of us unemployed with ZERO prospects and with the rent, massive student loan payments due and car payments due as well. So trust me, I get it.

I don't know why you think that optometry is somehow much worse now than it was 10 years ago. Believe me when I say that 10 years ago we had 1800 contacts and dozens of other similar sites. We still had crappy commercial plans. We still had medical plan discrimination. We had all the same crap then that we do today.

As for telling people they’re crazy for not just going out and buying a practice if it’s available? That kind of blanket recommendation is irresponsible, in my opinion. Sorry, but it is.

I never said just go out and buy a practice because it's available. I said if there are practices available, you'd be crazy to not try to make a deal for one of them, debt load or not.

Your opinion holds some weight on this forum, and maybe rightly so, but suggesting that everyone should go out and purchase a practice if they want to, regardless of their financial situation and experience level is crazy.

Jason, in life you can always come up with hundreds of reasons to not do something.

"I have too much debt."
"I don't feel comfortable with running a business."
"My wife is pregnant."
"There's too much competition."
"My car needs a brake job."

So again, you can start walking and working towards creating the career you dream for yourself or you can languish in excuses and self-pity and find out that in 10 years you're in the exact same position you were 10 years ago except now you're 10 years older. What does that accomplish?

You made of a go of it and it worked out for you. That’s great for you. When people make that kind of investment, they need to think about risk vs reward. What if you opened today as a new grad and it didn’t work? How bad would the consequences be to be 600K “in the hole” plus your student loans?

If I opened cold, I never would have spend $600,000. I spend that for a practice that generates the income that it does. That's why the risk of the $600,000 was well worth it.

What would you tell a new grad who came out of school, tripled or quadrupled his debt load to buy an office, and then tanked because he/she was in over their head?

That's the whole point. With proper planning, you won't get in over your head.

You can’t come back from that.

How many times did Walt Disney go bankrupt before making it? How many times has Trump been on the edge of bankruptcy?

My claim is that optometry used to provide a secure environment to start a practice. Was there risk? Of course there was risk. That risk is too high today, given all the pressures and problems with the profession and the added complexity of running a practice today vs 20 years ago.

There is no added complexity of running a practice today as compared to when I graduated. In fact, I'd say it's even easier.

Just because you managed to make things work 4 years ago, to me, is completely irrelevant. It’s not about this guy or that guy, it’s about what large numbers of grads are doing and can expect to be able to do.

The fact that you have not been able to make a go of it is completely irrelevant as well. I posted those numbers to show students that me, an average guy who's no smarter than they are has managed to create a multi six figure income in a saturated area in spite of massive student loans and geographic limitations on where I could practice.

They can chose to duplicate that, or they can choose your path of hand wringing and complaining.

 

[Jason K]

Jason, what I was referring to is if you are unhappy with your current situation, then find something different; whether it is within your own field or another. There isn't a nail in your coffin per se, and if you perceive your profession as disappearing, then abandon ship. Do I recommend bailing out when things are tough? No. If anything, those are times that show character, personality, and innovation to branch out and tap into other resources (go the extra mile...and yes, it may be tiring to put on a one man show for every patient, but you have to do what you have to do).

No offense to the career of optometry, but as much as it is a lot of work, it is not impossible. I never walked into this career and thought...geez..I killed myself for this degree, now I expect the red carpet treatment after graduation with limitless patients, $150 eye exams, free weekends, and paying off my $180K student loans in 5 years. There are plenty of professionals that have worked hard for their degrees and the payout is minimal (lawyers, social workers, teachers, veterinarians, etc).

Why is that every time someone says anything negative about optometry, someone else stands up and says, wait a minute, teachers have a it bad too, so do lawyers, so do..... What difference does it make? I’m not referring to any of those fields. Yes, lawyers and teachers are as screwed, if not more screwed, than OD grads. Who cares? Does that change anything?

As for changing career paths? How does one do that with a B.S. and an O.D and no other experience? Believe me, I've looked. As a new grad, many people make just enough to squeak by and make their loan payments and other obligations. If you switch career paths into another field, you start at the bottom, as you should. Do I have any non-optometric experience to offer anyone? No, so that means I get to start at a salary that's in line with my experience level, maybe 45-50K tops. There's no way to survive on 50K/yr. Which brings me right back to where I started. 4 years of OD school, $200K in loans, and a year of lost income for residency, and what did it provide? An opportunity to make the bare minimum to survive; 20 or 30K more than a B.S. grad. At some point, the benefits of the degree are outweighed by the cost. I think we've reached that point, on average. Obviously, you disagree. I hope for your sake, you're right.

As I said in my previous post, I don't really care about anecdotal tales of success, this guy did great in the face of enormous obstacles or that guy bought a billion dollar office and now he's the OD to the president, nor should anyone care about singular tales of woe (like mine) and base their judgement of the career on my case. It's everything taken together. So, take a poll today of what your classmates would like to be doing in 5 years and then revisit them in 2016. We'll see how many of them are happy with their lot in the profession. It's easy to say "you write your own destiny," but when huge percentages of graduating classes regret their decisions or have limited options, it says something about the career. This thread isn't about me or KHE or you or anyone for that matter, it's about the profession as a whole. And as a whole, I believe it to be in a nosedive. If you disagree with me, fine, but it doesn't change anything at all.

 

[shannon804]

Why is that every time someone says anything negative about optometry, someone else stands up and says, wait a minute, teachers have a it bad too, so do lawyers, so do..... What difference does it make? I’m not referring to any of those fields. Yes, lawyers and teachers are as screwed, if not more screwed, than OD grads. Who cares? Does that change anything?

As for changing career paths? How does one do that with a B.S. and an O.D and no other experience? Believe me, I've looked. As a new grad, many people make just enough to squeak by and make their loan payments and other obligations. If you switch career paths into another field, you start at the bottom, as you should. Do I have any non-optometric experience to offer anyone? No, so that means I get to start at a salary that's in line with my experience level, maybe 45-50K tops. There's no way to survive on 50K/yr. Which brings me right back to where I started. 4 years of OD school, $200K in loans, and a year of lost income for residency, and what did it provide? An opportunity to make the bare minimum to survive; 20 or 30K more than a B.S. grad. At some point, the benefits of the degree are outweighed by the cost. I think we've reached that point, on average. Obviously, you disagree. I hope for your sake, you're right.

As I said in my previous post, I don't really care about anecdotal tales of success, this guy did great in the face of enormous obstacles or that guy bought a billion dollar office and now he's the OD to the president, nor should anyone care about singular tales of woe (like mine) and base their judgement of the career on my case. It's everything taken together. So, take a poll today of what your classmates would like to be doing in 5 years and then revisit them in 2016. We'll see how many of them are happy with their lot in the profession. It's easy to say "you write your own destiny," but when huge percentages of graduating classes regret their decisions or have limited options, it says something about the career. This thread isn't about me or KHE or you or anyone for that matter, it's about the profession as a whole. And as a whole, I believe it to be in a nosedive. If you disagree with me, fine, but it doesn't change anything at all.

Geez, some of you guys need a reality check. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you can't make it on 50k a year as a single person, you need to take a good look at your financial skills. If you want to live in a luxurious apartment and drive an expensive car, wear Prada clothing and shoes, have the latest phone and computer, and go out to dinner every night, then you're right, there is no way you can live on 50k. But I want to point out that ALL of my friends (recent grads from a top-tier college with Bachelor's degrees) started out making less than 50k, and most of them started out making less than 40k. You all sound like spoiled brats when you whine about making more money in a year than more than half of all Americans make in several years (see median household income in the US).

 

[Jason K]

When I finished residency in 2001, I was offered a position to take over the struggling clinic a company that does laser eye surgery in Las Vegas. In August of 2001, my wife (also an OD) and I moved out there. We had no family, no friends, nothing out there. We went out there looking for a bit of adventure and thought it would be kind of fun.

Did you have kids? It's a lot easier to make gutsy decisions when you don't have a few mouths to feed when things go wrong.

How many times did Walt Disney go bankrupt before making it? How many times has Trump been on the edge of bankruptcy?

Trump and Disney didn't have student loan debt to worry about. If they did, it would have carried through their bankruptcy. Also, Donald Trump declaring bankruptcy is hardly comparable to an OD grad tanking a purchased practice and then drowning in inescapable student loan debt. Bankruptcy for the mega-wealthy is a financial tool that they use to keep themselves running business as usual. I'm not minimizing it, but it's not the same thing.

There is no added complexity of running a practice today as compared to when I graduated. In fact, I'd say it's even easier.

Even easier? How is managing an office easier today? I don't manage one so I'm not claiming to be an authority on the subject, clearly, but how? Insurance reimbursements are lower and dropping, coding complexity is increasing and about to get much worse (across the board, not just for ODs), EMR is being mandated so most offices are transitioning to that, which is no easy step. There's more competition from commercial optometry and other ODs in general (yes, I know it was around 10 years ago, but it's worse today, we both know that). So, with all that, how could running an office be easier today?

They can chose to duplicate that, or they can choose your path of hand wringing and complaining.

If they fail, because they assumed that your situation was comparable to theirs, are you going to bail them out? They can't choose to duplicate anything. They can try to duplicate it. My point is, the risk of trying outweighs the likelihood of success. You made it, not everyone can, so there will be failures. The number of failures, in my opinion, would be too high if everyone were to just make a go of it. That's my point. I have never claimed that absolutely everyone who tries will fail.

 

[Jason K]

Geez, some of you guys need a reality check. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you can't make it on 50k a year as a single person, you need to take a good look at your financial skills. If you want to live in a luxurious apartment and drive an expensive car, wear Prada clothing and shoes, have the latest phone and computer, and go out to dinner every night, then you're right, there is no way you can live on 50k. But I want to point out that ALL of my friends (recent grads from a top-tier college with Bachelor's degrees) started out making less than 50k, and most of them started out making less than 40k. You all sound like spoiled brats when you whine about making more money in a year than more than half of all Americans make in several years (see median household income in the US).

Reality check? First, I'm not single, I'm married, and I have several children. If you can figure out how to live reasonably comfortably on 50K per year with a family of five, AND YOUR STUDENT LOAN DEBT, please tell me how.

50K-(12 x 1750)=29K. That's 29K per year of actual income pretax. Don't forget about those loans, Shannon, they don't go anywhere.

As for my lifestyle? I live in a small 3 BR house with my family. My wife and I drive cars that are 15 yo and 12 yo, respectively. I have an old flip-phone that was probably the "in" unit when Saved By the Bell was still running new episodes. I haven't bought a pair of shoes in over 2 years and I don't even know what brand they are. So, please, don't lecture to me about spending habits.

As for your friends, we seem to be arriving at the same place as usual. Someone makes a "forbidden" negative comment about optometry and it's immediately met with "My friend paid $6M for her B.S. and now she makes 15K per year and she lives in starvation." Well, your friend overpaid for her degree, just like I did for my OD. Sorry. People go to school to better themselves, and yes, that includes improving income prospects for many people. If you pay 150K or 200K for a B.S. like many people do now days, I don't care where it's from, you overpaid. Period. If you make 35K or 40K coming out of college with a degree that expensive, you got ripped off, even worse than I did. It doesn't change anything with regard to the optometry discussion. If you get out of school with your OD and you're content making 50K, there's something wrong with you, for everyone except the for-profit learning institutions, they'll love you to death.

 

[KHE]

Did you have kids? It's a lot easier to make gutsy decisions when you don't have a few mouths to feed when things go wrong.

2 kids ages 7 and 3. And with my 3 year old, we found out she was pregnant one month before I bought the practice. SO there it is....1 kid, one on the way and a million in debt. OMG.

Trump and Disney didn't have student loan debt to worry about. If they did, it would have carried through their bankruptcy. Also, Donald Trump declaring bankruptcy is hardly comparable to an OD grad tanking a purchased practice and then drowning in inescapable student loan debt. Bankruptcy for the mega-wealthy is a financial tool that they use to keep themselves running business as usual. I'm not minimizing it, but it's not the same thing.

You're right. They didn't have student loans. THEY HAD A MORTGAGE ON DISNEY WORLD AND TRUMP TOWERS! Which do you think is more?

Even easier? How is managing an office easier today? I don't manage one so I'm not claiming to be an authority on the subject, clearly, but how? Insurance reimbursements are lower and dropping, coding complexity is increasing and about to get much worse (across the board, not just for ODs), EMR is being mandated so most offices are transitioning to that, which is no easy step. There's more competition from commercial optometry and other ODs in general (yes, I know it was around 10 years ago, but it's worse today, we both know that). So, with all that, how could running an office be easier today?

Coding complexity is no more burdensome today than it ever was. You hire people to do that stuff anyways. The reason it's easier is because for better or for worse, manage care plans be they vision or medical BRING PEOPLE INTO THE OFFICE. I can open an office tomorrow and be busy in fairly short order thanks to managed care. Now yes, the reimbursements may not be great to start out with but the goal in practice is to create an environment and an experience in which the patients want to spend money. That's the trick.

If they fail, because they assumed that your situation was comparable to theirs, are you going to bail them out? They can't choose to duplicate anything. They can try to duplicate it. My point is, the risk of trying outweighs the likelihood of success. You made it, not everyone can, so there will be failures. The number of failures, in my opinion, would be too high if everyone were to just make a go of it. That's my point. I have never claimed that absolutely everyone who tries will fail.

My situation was WORSE than most people. I too had the massive student loan debt. I too live in an area of heavy saturation, sky high real estate, property and income taxes and all other costs of living.

And again...here I am, an AVERAGE GUY. That's what I'm trying to say here....I'm JUST SOME AVERAGE GUY. I'm not a guru, or some business genius or graduated at the top of my class and knows everything about MEWDS and CRVOs and piggy back lens design.

I'm just a REGULAR GUY. Optometry has it's faults to be sure but there aren't too many other businesses where you can be AVERAGE and still make a six figure income.

 

[shannon804]

Reality check? First, I'm not single, I'm married, and I have several children. If you can figure out how to live reasonably comfortably on 50K per year with a family of five, AND YOUR STUDENT LOAN DEBT, please tell me how.

50K-(12 x 1750)=29K. That's 29K per year of actual income pretax. Don't forget about those loans, Shannon, they don't go anywhere.

As for my lifestyle? I live in a small 3 BR house with my family. My wife and I drive cars that are 15 yo and 12 yo, respectively. I have an old flip-phone that was probably the "in" unit when Saved By the Bell was still running new episodes. I haven't bought a pair of shoes in over 2 years and I don't even know what brand they are. So, please, don't lecture to me about spending habits.

As for your friends, we seem to be arriving at the same place as usual. Someone makes a "forbidden" negative comment about optometry and it's immediately met with "My friend paid $6M for her B.S. and now she makes 15K per year and she lives in starvation." Well, your friend overpaid for her degree, just like I did for my OD. Sorry. People go to school to better themselves, and yes, that includes improving income prospects for many people. If you pay 150K or 200K for a B.S. like many people do now days, I don't care where it's from, you overpaid. Period. If you make 35K or 40K coming out of college with a degree that expensive, you got ripped off, even worse than I did. It doesn't change anything with regard to the optometry discussion. If you get out of school with your OD and you're content making 50K, there's something wrong with you, for everyone except the for-profit learning institutions, they'll love you to death.

Please notice that I specificically wrote this in reference to SINGLE people. As in, people without a wife and five kids. Also notice that the tone of my comment was not one of "lecturing" anyone, and it certainly wasn't directed toward you personally. I'm sorry you're so unhappy with your situation, Jason K.

 

[Jason K]

Please notice that I specificically wrote this in reference to SINGLE people. As in, people without a wife and five kids. Also notice that the tone of my comment was not one of "lecturing" anyone, and it certainly wasn't directed toward you personally. I'm sorry you're so unhappy with your situation, Jason K.

Noted, but my comparison still stands. The 29K figure doesn't go anywhere, 5 kids or not. If you want to go to school for 8-9 years to get out and have a net pretax income of 29K, go for it.

 

[Jason K]

2 kids ages 7 and 3. And with my 3 year old, we found out she was pregnant one month before I bought the practice. SO there it is....1 kid, one on the way and a million in debt. OMG.

Kudos, I didn't know, that's why I asked. It doesn't change anything with regard to my claim that the profession is in a nosedive. You can come up with glorious success stories, so can I. I know a few recent grads who are doing pretty well, the point is, I know dozens and dozens more who are miserable. If there were 3 or 4 people in my graduating class who were unhappy with the profession, while everyone else was content, I wouldn't be on here. There will always be a disgruntled few, in any field or situation, but when that disgruntled few starts multiplying and surpasses the number of content, there's a problem. At some point, it stops being a problem of individuals and starts being an inherent problem of the profession. Can someone still do well in optometry? As I've said before, yes. That's not the question. The question is, what is the profession going to provide in return for the investment for the majority of grads entering the profession now? Are there other professions that provide poor ROIs? Of course, but I'm not commenting on those.

You're right. They didn't have student loans. THEY HAD A MORTGAGE ON DISNEY WORLD AND TRUMP TOWERS! Which do you think is more?

This is a case where size truly doesn't matter. One can get out of a mortgage in bankruptcy, no matter what the size. You can't get out of student loans by declaring bankruptcy.

Coding complexity is no more burdensome today than it ever was. You hire people to do that stuff anyways.

You can hire someone with a large office generating enough to do so, but someone starting out buying a 1 lane office is not going to have the luxury to do that, they'll be doing it largely themselves, especially if they're right out of school. New ICD-10 codes? We're going to be dealing with a lot more complexity in a short time here. Is that a reason that I think negatively of optometry? Hardly, it's affecting all health care providers, but to say it's easier because plans bring people into the office? I know many, many practice owners who would cringe at hearing that statement.

My situation was WORSE than most people. I too had the massive student loan debt. I too live in an area of heavy saturation, sky high real estate, property and income taxes and all other costs of living.

Look, I'm happy for you. It worked out. But, as I've said before, I don't care about individual experiences here. It's not about that, mine or yours or anyone's. It's about the profession as a whole and what it offers.

In my opinion, optometry is a poor investment for most, and I'll stand by that claim. Am I telling everyone not to go to optometry school? No, as I've said repeatedly, I am not telling anyone to avoid optometry at all. I'm telling them to really look into the profession deeply before deciding, as they should do for any profession. Can it possibly give you a good payoff? Sure, so can a degree in art history. That doesn't mean that a degree in AH is a good investment for the vast majority of those who study it. If you take a snapshot of all the current 4th year students and follow them 5 years down the road, I'd be willing to bet a large percentage of them will be unhappy with their career choice. When large portions of grads are going unwillingly where they don't want to go, there's a problem. After graduation, where did almost all of the grads at my school end up? Commercial, even if they relocated. If they were lucky, making 35-45/hr as a contractor or employed by everyone's favorite "L" word or worse yet, America's Best. It was a rare event to hear of someone getting a PP associateship and when they did, it was almost always a day or two per week.

So, I believe the profession is heading in downward direction. Maybe you and others disagree with me, but that's what I see when I look at the whole picture and I'm certainly not alone. If you think it's heading upward, great, and maybe for you, personally, it is, but that doesn't change the profession as a whole. It would be hard for anyone to argue that the vast majority of grads are not entering i commercial optometry. Do I have specific numbers? No, but for the programs I'm connected with, that's the case and I would be shocked if it weren't true for just about all the schools in the US. If they are entering commercial, then why? Do most grads enter OD programs with a strong desire to go into a career in commercial optometry? I don't think so, so why is everyone going into commercial? Because that's all that's there. It's easy to say, "I have this awesome practice because I added 600K on top of my loans and it worked out great for me?" How many other people are there for each success story, that failed miserably? I can list of quite a few people who bought practices recently after graduating and I can tell you they did not have a happy ending. What happens after failing in an optometry practice? I can tell you since I know several people in that position. In their cases, they went to work for a corporate giant, and they have no hope of getting a home loan and certainly not another practice loan for many, many years, if ever. But they didn't lose their student loans, those followed them right through the storm and out the other side.

I think, as others have pointed out, that this thread has really reached its useful end. Everyone on here has their viewpoint, some on either extreme and some in the middle. My only goal here was to get people thinking about their OD (or any graduate degree) as a product, just like an investment product (stocks, mutual funds,etc), because that's exactly what it is. But for some reason, people have been convinced that educational expenses are somehow exempt from the "return" part of the ROI. Someone comes out of an OD school making a low salary because that's the going rate, and then complains about it? What's the response? "Stop complaining, work harder, don't act like you're so entitled...." It's like people have been brainwashed to take whatever comes and not question it, no matter what the degree costs. What if an OD cost 500K or 600K? Would it still be a good investment? How bad does it have to be before it's ok to admit there's a problem? $150/day, $100/day? The return is dropping and won't likely come back so how bad does it have to get before it's finally ok to say "Geez, maybe it really isn't a great investment anymore?"

In 1990, a grad could come out and make an inflation adjusted equivalent of about 90K, and that was in a PP position. Now days, if you're one of the fortunate few who actually finds a PP associateship right out of school, you command a salary of about 75K. So the payoff has dropped, a lot. What about the cost? Assuming an OD cost about 10K to 15K back then with inflation accounted for (actually a very high estimate), then an OD costs about 10-20 times more now than it did in 1990. So, the cost went up 10 to 20 times, but the pay went down by about 17%.

I'm no finance major, but by my understanding, that's practically the definition of a bad ROI.


I'll leave the last word to whomever else wants to take it, but I think we've all dragged this one out beyond its lifespan. (Alright, I'm not going to lie, if someone comes on here and says something like the "Why don't you just go work for an OMD and pay off your loans in 4 years...." I might be back in order to avoid a brain hemorrhage.

 

[DrSpontaneouz83]

Why is that every time someone says anything negative about optometry, someone else stands up and says, wait a minute, teachers have a it bad too, so do lawyers, so do..... What difference does it make? I'm not referring to any of those fields. Yes, lawyers and teachers are as screwed, if not more screwed, than OD grads. Who cares? Does that change anything?

The point is that no career guarantees success, regardless of how much you paid for the degree!! At what point does it become the student/doctor's responsibility for their own outcome? Life is about risks...just as it was a risk to jump into a 4yr degree/200K debt..what difference would it make to take another business risk to buy into a private practice (of course, with some knowledge of what you are getting into..)??? It isn't ALL about pointing the finger at corporate america and various other factors for your poor success....even if that means uprooting with the family!! Sorry, but if you are the bread winner, they need to bite the bullet and support you because how the hell do you all expect to live comfortably??? (and I am sure unhappiness and financial strife can easily lead into marital problems).

Debt is something that is inevitable...we will live with debt and most will unfortunately die with debt..so why kill yourself earlier by stressing about every last penny?? As I have mentioned in other posts, if Obama's reform continues, there is student loan forgiveness http://hubpages.com/hub/Obama-Student-Loan-Reform-Obama-Student-Loan-Forgiveness-Plans. The key is to manage your money as best as you can and not worry so much about every penny or prepare to drive yourself crazy. I don't know of any successful business person who did not eat **** before making it big... unless you win the lottery.

Even if there is one success story out of 100, there is no reason why you can't do what the "successful OD" did with appropriate guidance and investigation.

So, take a poll today of what your classmates would like to be doing in 5 years and then revisit them in 2016. We'll see how many of them are happy with their lot in the profession. It's easy to say "you write your own destiny," but when huge percentages of graduating classes regret their decisions or have limited options, it says something about the career.

Personally, I don't really care what my classmates will be doing 5 years down the line after they graduate, I wish them all the best, but that is their business. What I truly care about is where WILL I BE 5 years down the line, and a large part of that will be determined by how much sacrifice I am willing to put on my end (ie; willingness to learn from others mistakes, network with the right people, observe as much as you can from knowledgable entrepreneurs).

I am not one of those "life is beautiful" people who dismiss all negative possibilites in life but I refuse to be held hostage and surrender to life's pitfalls. Hell, I got the boot from another optometry school (long story) and RELOCATED to a freaking island to complete my career. Five years ago I would have laughed in your face if you were to tell me I would be here...but it's my reality and I am loving every minute of it. I've racked up approximately $10,000 in scholarships in 2 years (pretty nice business investment) and feel I am getting a great education. The moral of the story is you learn from your mistakes, you don't give up and you do not remain stagnant when life takes a sour turn. When one door closes in your face, another one is sure to open...you just have to keep knocking; that is what differentiates a successful OD from your disgruntled OD.

So I agree with you in the sense that optometry can be a dead end, for those "majority" of classmates who do not wish to make the needed sacrifices to make it in the real world.

 

[banana414]

Best thread yet. Very information. Gives applicants a reality check. Thank you for that It's vital to know the uglier side of every profession.

 

[KHE]

You can hire someone with a large office generating enough to do so, but someone starting out buying a 1 lane office is not going to have the luxury to do that, they'll be doing it largely themselves, especially if they're right out of school. New ICD-10 codes? We're going to be dealing with a lot more complexity in a short time here. Is that a reason that I think negatively of optometry? Hardly, it's affecting all health care providers, but to say it's easier because plans bring people into the office? I know many, many practice owners who would cringe at hearing that statement.

More reasons to "not" do something, right?

If you take a snapshot of all the current 4th year students and follow them 5 years down the road, I'd be willing to bet a large percentage of them will be unhappy with their career choice. When large portions of grads are going unwillingly where they don't want to go, there's a problem. After graduation, where did almost all of the grads at my school end up? Commercial, even if they relocated. If they were lucky, making 35-45/hr as a contractor or employed by everyone's favorite "L" word or worse yet, America's Best. It was a rare event to hear of someone getting a PP associateship and when they did, it was almost always a day or two per week.

It would be hard for anyone to argue that the vast majority of grads are not entering i commercial optometry. Do I have specific numbers? No, but for the programs I'm connected with, that's the case and I would be shocked if it weren't true for just about all the schools in the US. If they are entering commercial, then why? Do most grads enter OD programs with a strong desire to go into a career in commercial optometry? I don't think so, so why is everyone going into commercial? Because that's all that's there.

The reason everyone is going commercial is because too many of them are just like you, Jason....they are filled with fear. And because so few of them actually took the initiative to learn anything or observe anything in optometry school beyond MEWDS, blood test for Bechet's and whatever else is on the NBEO.

It's easy to say, "I have this awesome practice because I added 600K on top of my loans and it worked out great for me?" How many other people are there for each success story, that failed miserably? I can list of quite a few people who bought practices recently after graduating and I can tell you they did not have a happy ending. What happens after failing in an optometry practice?

I think, as others have pointed out, that this thread has really reached its useful end. Everyone on here has their viewpoint, some on either extreme and some in the middle. My only goal here was to get people thinking about their OD (or any graduate degree) as a product, just like an investment product (stocks, mutual funds,etc), because that's exactly what it is.

This I agree with but even at it's worst, optometry is still a good ROI. Even at it's worth, 200,000 in debt for an 80,000k per year salary for 40 years and never goes up a penny, that's still 3.2 million over the course of a career which comes out to around a 7.5% ROI. That's at it's absolute worst. A situation where you never earn one cent more than $80,000 per year.

But for some reason, people have been convinced that educational expenses are somehow exempt from the "return" part of the ROI. Someone comes out of an OD school making a low salary because that's the going rate, and then complains about it? What's the response? "Stop complaining, work harder, don't act like you're so entitled...." It's like people have been brainwashed to take whatever comes and not question it, no matter what the degree costs. What if an OD cost 500K or 600K? Would it still be a good investment? How bad does it have to be before it's ok to admit there's a problem? $150/day, $100/day? The return is dropping and won't likely come back so how bad does it have to get before it's finally ok to say "Geez, maybe it really isn't a great investment anymore?"

If an OD degree costs $500,000 then it would come out to about a 5% ROI.

In 1990, a grad could come out and make an inflation adjusted equivalent of about 90K, and that was in a PP position. Now days, if you're one of the fortunate few who actually finds a PP associateship right out of school, you command a salary of about 75K. So the payoff has dropped, a lot. What about the cost? Assuming an OD cost about 10K to 15K back then with inflation accounted for (actually a very high estimate), then an OD costs about 10-20 times more now than it did in 1990. So, the cost went up 10 to 20 times, but the pay went down by about 17%.

What do you think the top half of earners in optometry made in 1990 and how do you think that compares to 2011?

 

[Tippytoe]

Just learned that Mass is opening a new OD school:
http://www.telegram.com/article/20110708/NEWS/107089890/1237

Went from 16 optometry school over the past 100 years to 21 schools in ONE decade.

I say, AWESOME!! The more, the merry. With thousands of ODs graduating per year, and with Walmart already filled with refracting jockeys, there WILL be a glut of hungry optometrists begging for jobs.

So actually this is GREAT for established ODs. I will be able to have some slave ODs doing ALL my work for $30/hr while I hit the golf course every day.

What the hell have I been thinking?! 'Opto-slaves'. Yea, I might even go ahead and put in an order for my new Yacht right now

 

[sweetdaises2000]

Are these "Leaders of Optometry" not in contact with the real world, and working populations of optometrists? I like to keep up to date with issues in all the health sciences, and it just seems like there is such a disconnect between the work force and academia. They mention "only 21 schools"like its a bad thing. From all the issues I've read about in optometry, the only way this issue of oversupply can be helped, is either optometrists lobby to stop the opening of more schools, or maybe argue for increased scope?
I just feel for the newbies who will be entering the profession....

Just learned that Mass is opening a new OD school:
http://www.telegram.com/article/20110708/NEWS/107089890/1237

Went from 16 optometry school over the past 100 years to 21 schools in ONE decade.

I say, AWESOME!! The more, the merry. With thousands of ODs graduating per year, and with Walmart already filled with refracting jockeys, there WILL be a glut of hungry optometrists begging for jobs.

So actually this is GREAT for established ODs. I will be able to have some slave ODs doing ALL my work for $30/hr while I hit the golf course every day.

What the hell have I been thinking?! 'Opto-slaves'. Yea, I might even go ahead and put in an order for my new Yacht right now

 

[CoolRX]

KHE, what is the meaning of "know what you are getting yourself into?"

To get a feel for the post, I read a few of the comments and it is amazing that after a few people got to comment, how they distorted the original intent of the post.

There is no basis of accusing the author of scaring people to study optometry, which is inaccurate. In fact, he repeatedly wrote to know what the applicant is getting himself/herself into.

I found this post very helpful actually. As a pharmacy student, I actually was looking very far into the profession. I had my doubts going in as to what I would actually get to do as a pharmacist, but I had your mindset (KHE) of don't worry about it now, worry about it later. Boy am I miserable now!

For starters, as an actual pharmacy student, many of my classmates are having a lot of trouble finding intern positions. When we applied two years ago, it was viewed as safe. Yes the economy has something to do with it, but there is an overwhelming abundance of new graduates every year. Furthermore, what I really wanted to do within pharmacy is proving a lot more difficult than I thought. Sure I knew about the retail side (my very least favorite), but I just hoped I'd be able to do a residency. Now, given that I'm a student, it just might be a waste of time and lost income. Residency are extremely competitive and sometimes top grades is really no guarantee. So the new graduate gets a retail job and really how do you return to school after you start making payments on exorbitant loan payments. In intern for free at a retail store and the look on the pharmacist face told all. Overwork, corporate does not hire enough techs, very little lunch breaks (if at all), pharmacist is forced to fill the scripts, we have to deal the drive-thru etc...

It is incredibly difficult to open a independent pharmacy given various circumstances. We were told at orientation that the days of newly minted pharmacists making 100K are over. Graduating with so much debt and doing a less desirable job than expected can be tough to swallow. Most of us wrote on our applications that we were thrilled at the prospects of truly making a difference. Becoming a cashier in the profession is hardly what we envisioned really doing, though arguably, many applicants knew "what they were getting themselves into!"

Though this is an optometry thread, it really is not much difference than pharmacy as to where the professions are headed. Both have a place in WM, while OD has to make sales even when not necessary, we in the pharmacy chains (Walgreens, Walmart, CVS etc...) sell tobacco and cigarettes even while we are claiming to help you be in good health.

Now, like the author of this thread, you take the risk you go for it. Two years in, I'm reevaluating what I want out of a career. Go in all the way and incur a massive debt, or find something (i.e Engineering) that I might enjoy doing. Even there, there are problems (job stability, depending on the engineering branch: civil, not enough government contracts; Mechanical/Aerospace: NASA is laying off etc...).

Yet, an applicant has every right to go in anyways. But knowing that civil engineering is actually pretty tough given the economy, he/she might be more careful knowing most of the pros/cons about future decisions.

Anyway, I was considering OD because I actually wanted to have my own business so that my wife and I could enjoy being our own bosses. But that was a quixotic idea in this profession. It may have worked for you, but poll most of your classmates, and JK claims a 95% confidence interval that your classmates are working in retail, very far from what he/she intended to do and with not much prospects for a thriving practice and making real significant contributions; and that, with a massive debt.

I've done ton of research and given my already pharmacy debt, I can't possibly consider it. There are other exciting careers. But to each his own! Congrats to you KHE, that you were able to pull ahead of the rat race.

Do not distort the original intent of the post.

 

[KHE]

KHE, what is the meaning of "know what you are getting yourself into?"

To get a feel for the post, I read a few of the comments and it is amazing that after a few people got to comment, how they distorted the original intent of the post.

There is no basis of accusing the author of scaring people to study optometry, which is inaccurate. In fact, he repeatedly wrote to know what the applicant is getting himself/herself into.

I found this post very helpful actually. As a pharmacy student, I actually was looking very far into the profession. I had my doubts going in as to what I would actually get to do as a pharmacist, but I had your mindset (KHE) of don't worry about it now, worry about it later. Boy am I miserable now!

I've done ton of research and given my already pharmacy debt, I can't possibly consider it. There are other exciting careers. But to each his own! Congrats to you KHE, that you were able to pull ahead of the rat race.

Do not distort the original intent of the post.

I have no idea what this posting means. Is there a question here?

 

[Jason K]

If an OD degree costs $500,000 then it would come out to about a 5% ROI.

And how is a new grad going to make the monthly loan payments for such a loan? At today's rates, they'd be paying about $4500 to $5000 per month before any other expenses. Most would not even be able to keep up with their monthly payments, even if that was all they responsible for. IBR, you say? It would be a quick death by drowning with the interest build-up in that situation, as it is for many grads on IBR today, they just don't know it yet.

As I said in a much earlier post regarding ROI, it goes far beyond dollars and cents on a final balance sheet. The starting period of the first 5-7 years is critical. If you can't survive that period because your pay is too low for you to keep up with your monthly financial obligations, the other 33-35 years of the investment period are irrelevant.

If, in 15 or 20 years, an OD costs twice or three times what it does now, but inflation adjusted income is actually lower like it is today compared to 1991, then what? Will optometry still be a great choice despite the fact that graduates will not be able to pay for anything beyond a portion of their monthly student loan debt? No food, no rent, no savings, nothing. Fortunately, this situation is unlikely since the education "bubble" is going to burst before then, just like the mortgage industry since it's exactly the same economic process that's taking place. The US government came in, subsidized the student loan industry allowing anyone with an 18 year-old birth certificate and a pulse to borrow tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars without any regard for how they intended to pay it back. Private learning institutions responded to this federal subsidy by raising tuition, then raising it some more, and then raising it some more. Why not? People will just effortlessly borrow more to pay for the added cost of tuition, right? Unlce Sam is lending without restriction so everyone line up for your higher education expenses, and when we say higher we mean "higher!" And now, a B.S. costs 120K when it used to cost a couple of thousand. Graduate degrees are even more expensive. The same process took place in early to mid 2000s when our friends Barney Frank et al came in and said to mortgage lenders "Hey, you guys need to offer more lenient home loans to people, don't worry about how they're going to pay it back, that's not your problem, loan it to them or else!" What happened as a result? Home sale prices skyrocketed as people borrowed more to pay for the increasing cost, with no check in place to keep things grounded. We all know how that turned out. The same bubble has formed in education and it will burst, I can promise you that. What that "burst" will be, nobody knows. Student loan debt has recently exceeded total credit card debt in the US. That's right, folks, students in the US have borrowed more money than all of the credit card debt in the US, combined. So, as I said, the bubble burst is going to happen.

This I agree with but even at it's worst, optometry is still a good ROI. Even at it's worth, 200,000 in debt for an 80,000k per year salary for 40 years and never goes up a penny, that's still 3.2 million over the course of a career which comes out to around a 7.5% ROI. That's at it's absolute worst. A situation where you never earn one cent more than $80,000 per year.

Just as an aside, counting all 80K/yr toward the ROI is not accurate since the investor never sees a large portion of that amount due to student loan repayment. 60K per year income would be generous, but more realistic. Also, that 200K is more like 350 or 400K once interest is accounted for over a 25 year term.

 

[KHE]

And how is a new grad going to make the monthly loan payments for such a loan? At today's rates, they'd be paying about $4500 to $5000 per month before any other expenses. Most would not even be able to keep up with their monthly payments, even if that was all they responsible for. IBR, you say? It would be a quick death by drowning with the interest build-up in that situation, as it is for many grads on IBR today, they just don't know it yet.

Just as an aside, counting all 80K/yr toward the ROI is not accurate since the investor never sees a large portion of that amount due to student loan repayment. 60K per year income would be generous, but more realistic. Also, that 200K is more like 350 or 400K once interest is accounted for over a 25 year term.

I'm not saying someone should pursue optometry if it costs $500,000. I would never say that. What the "upper limit" is? That would vary from person to person but I would say that $250,000 is the ABSOLUTE upper limit while $200,000 is where it starts getting a bit outrageous. I'm only trying to point out that even at $500,000 the total earning potential you would have still makes it a ROI that is not ridiculous. $500,000 over 30 years is a monthly payment of $3200. That's not good but it's not $4500 or $5000.

A $200,000 loan at 6.8% amortized over 30 years results in a monthly payment of $1303. The interest on which is tax deductible.

If, in 15 or 20 years, an OD costs twice or three times what it does now, but inflation adjusted income is actually lower like it is today compared to 1991, then what? Will optometry still be a great choice despite the fact that graduates will not be able to pay for anything beyond a portion of their monthly student loan debt? No food, no rent, no savings, nothing.

If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we'd all have a merry christmas.

We are not talking about an OD 15 or 20 years from now. We are talking about one right now. You can't have it both ways.

Fortunately, this situation is unlikely since the education "bubble" is going to burst before then, just like the mortgage industry since it's exactly the same economic process that's taking place. The US government came in, subsidized the student loan industry allowing anyone with an 18 year-old birth certificate and a pulse to borrow tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars without any regard for how they intended to pay it back. Private learning institutions responded to this federal subsidy by raising tuition, then raising it some more, and then raising it some more. Why not? People will just effortlessly borrow more to pay for the added cost of tuition, right? Unlce Sam is lending without restriction so everyone line up for your higher education expenses, and when we say higher we mean "higher!" And now, a B.S. costs 120K when it used to cost a couple of thousand. Graduate degrees are even more expensive.

Well that there is some truth in, however I don't think optometry is anywhere close to that. There are private "medical assistant" and "business" schools are here that train you for 2 years at $20,000 a year to be an assistant in an office somewhere making $30,000. That's crazy.

The same process took place in early to mid 2000s when our friends Barney Frank et al came in and said to mortgage lenders "Hey, you guys need to offer more lenient home loans to people, don't worry about how they're going to pay it back, that's not your problem, loan it to them or else!" What happened as a result? Home sale prices skyrocketed as people borrowed more to pay for the increasing cost, with no check in place to keep things grounded. We all know how that turned out. The same bubble has formed in education and it will burst, I can promise you that. What that "burst" will be, nobody knows. Student loan debt has recently exceeded total credit card debt in the US. That's right, folks, students in the US have borrowed more money than all of the credit card debt in the US, combined. So, as I said, the bubble burst is going to happen.

The education bubble is a multi faceted problem that goes way beyond simple low interest rates on student loans. That in general doesn't help but the massive degree inflation we've seen in the last 15-20 years is the main culprit.

Just as an aside, counting all 80K/yr toward the ROI is not accurate since the investor never sees a large portion of that amount due to student loan repayment. 60K per year income would be generous, but more realistic. Also, that 200K is more like 350 or 400K once interest is accounted for over a 25 year term.

200,000 in student loans would result in a tax deductible payment of $15000 per year.

But go right on ahead Jason and keep coming up with reasons to not do something. You can always find them in any situation.

 

[SaraPharm]

I'm talking about salaris in Canada, not the US, although this thread is mainly about Optometry in the US. My buddy just secured a hospital position pays $34/hr with 8 hour shifts, although that may not be the norm as stated in this thread earning $100,000USD is not the norm for Optometrists. That is from personal experience. So I'm going to apologize for giving the american readers false information. Actually this thread should be labeled pertinent mainly to practicing in the US and maybe Ontario Canada, as Waterloo grads usually saturate the major cities there.

The median salary for pharm techs in canada is around 15 dollars an hour. thAT is the norm in both retail and hospital settings.

Earnings of $20-40 dollars an hour are extremely rare, especially within the domain of retail pharmacy chains, where most prescriptions are filled, giving these chains dominance in the pharmacy marketplace and, in turn, creating a large repository of pharmacy technician jobs. Those who make within the range posted for the aforementioned answer are usually pharmacy interns, not technicians

 

[KHE]

Ok guys.....look.....

After sleeping on this thread, I want to try to summarize my views on this because the thread has gotten unwieldy.

Jason K has put forth a view that an optometry degree is not a good investment financially. I strongly disagree with that. It may not have worked out for him for a variety of reasons but I'm sure you can find people who have Harvard Law degrees or Johns Hopkins Med school degrees who would say it's not a good investment.

Is an optometry degree expensive? Yes.

Is an optometry degree more expensive than it should be? Probably yes in most cases.

Is an optometry degree a guarantee of a six figure income? Nope. What degree is?

Should it be a guaranteed six figure income? All things considered, yes but this is the business we have chosen.

Are there downward pressures on salaries and incomes in optometry? In some ways yes, in some ways no though overall, yes just as it is an all health careers, including the venerated dentistry.

Is it likely to get worse in the future? Probably, just as it is for all health careers.

But at the end of the day, I can't think of too many degrees I could have gotten that allow me to make as much money as I do, as easily as I do.

And that's what I'm trying to get accross to people. I'm just a regular guy. I'm not some smart guy who has all kinds of business acumen and knows the ins and outs of marketing and business and accounting. I'm just a small town OD who had all the student loan debts that you guys had. As I said, when I bought my practice I was in for over a million dollars between the practice and the student loans and the house. So I get it. I really do.

But somehow I made it and with a little bit of thought and determination, you can make it as well. Is it guaranteed? Nope. Not at all. But nothing in life is. So instead of coming up with dozens of reasons to not do something, start trying to plan how you want to make it happen.