Is optometry school a good investment?

[netmag]

I think this pretty much sums it all up perfectly. However, there are a few here that prefer obfuscation to clarity so they may not like a balanced, clear summary such as this.

I hang out here because I know someone who is interested in both Optometry and Pharmacy. They're not interested in being an MD or a Dentist and they really don't care about the pay so much as long as it's enough to pay bills.

The information you just posted is kind of what I have found from my research. All of these health care professions have trade offs. Even MDs may not get paid what you would expect (given the amount of time they must spend to reach that goal). It depends on what they specialize in. Some of the specializations with higher monetary returns can be challenged by other professions. For example, anesthesiologists vs CRNAs. While Dentistry comes close, there simply isn't a health care field that is bullet-proof in terms of income and long term job security.

I will say that I am a bit surprised that an ODs salary is not closer to a guaranteed 6 digits. I think the work and level of education requried should warrant it. On average, a Pharmacy education costs a bit less too but then there are about 123 pharmacy schools and only 20 (soon to be 22) Optometry schools. Pharmacy has more of a legitimate case to make for oversupply than Optometry at the moment. They're still maintaining their 6 digit salaries but who knows how long that will last.

So things aren't rosy for everyone else and not everyone wants to be a Dentist. I'd say Optometry is still good in comparison to other health care professions assuming you actually want to do it and know what kind of work it involves.

Ok guys.....look.....

After sleeping on this thread, I want to try to summarize my views on this because the thread has gotten unwieldy.

Jason K has put forth a view that an optometry degree is not a good investment financially. I strongly disagree with that. It may not have worked out for him for a variety of reasons but I'm sure you can find people who have Harvard Law degrees or Johns Hopkins Med school degrees who would say it's not a good investment.

Is an optometry degree expensive? Yes.

Is an optometry degree more expensive than it should be? Probably yes in most cases.

Is an optometry degree a guarantee of a six figure income? Nope. What degree is?

Should it be a guaranteed six figure income? All things considered, yes but this is the business we have chosen.

Are there downward pressures on salaries and incomes in optometry? In some ways yes, in some ways no though overall, yes just as it is an all health careers, including the venerated dentistry.

Is it likely to get worse in the future? Probably, just as it is for all health careers.

But at the end of the day, I can't think of too many degrees I could have gotten that allow me to make as much money as I do, as easily as I do.

And that's what I'm trying to get accross to people. I'm just a regular guy. I'm not some smart guy who has all kinds of business acumen and knows the ins and outs of marketing and business and accounting. I'm just a small town OD who had all the student loan debts that you guys had. As I said, when I bought my practice I was in for over a million dollars between the practice and the student loans. So I get it. I really do.

But somehow I made it and with a little bit of thought and determination, you can make it as well. Is it guaranteed? Nope. Not at all. But nothing in life is. So instead of coming up with dozens of reasons to not do something, start trying to plan how you want to make it happen.

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[cjensen20]

based on a class I recently took at the Optometry Meeting in SLC...the average student needs to have an minimum offer of $83,000 in an average location to be able to pay back loans and still have enough to live off of for the first 5 years

 

[imemily]

Ok guys.....look.....

After sleeping on this thread, I want to try to summarize my views on this because the thread has gotten unwieldy.

Jason K has put forth a view that an optometry degree is not a good investment financially. I strongly disagree with that. It may not have worked out for him for a variety of reasons but I'm sure you can find people who have Harvard Law degrees or Johns Hopkins Med school degrees who would say it's not a good investment.

Is an optometry degree expensive? Yes.

Is an optometry degree more expensive than it should be? Probably yes in most cases.

Is an optometry degree a guarantee of a six figure income? Nope. What degree is?

Should it be a guaranteed six figure income? All things considered, yes but this is the business we have chosen.

Are there downward pressures on salaries and incomes in optometry? In some ways yes, in some ways no though overall, yes just as it is an all health careers, including the venerated dentistry.

Is it likely to get worse in the future? Probably, just as it is for all health careers.

But at the end of the day, I can't think of too many degrees I could have gotten that allow me to make as much money as I do, as easily as I do.

And that's what I'm trying to get accross to people. I'm just a regular guy. I'm not some smart guy who has all kinds of business acumen and knows the ins and outs of marketing and business and accounting. I'm just a small town OD who had all the student loan debts that you guys had. As I said, when I bought my practice I was in for over a million dollars between the practice and the student loans. So I get it. I really do.

But somehow I made it and with a little bit of thought and determination, you can make it as well. Is it guaranteed? Nope. Not at all. But nothing in life is. So instead of coming up with dozens of reasons to not do something, start trying to plan how you want to make it happen.

I REALLY find it hard to believe that you had invested over 1 million dollars including tuition debt to purchase your practice. I mean, usually, practices sell at 1/3 gross revenue, and if you go by that you basically bought a practice that grossed 3 million a year. That's pretty hard to believe!

You mention that your just a regular OD and you don't possess any savvy business/marketing skills, but honestly, as an Optometrist or MORE IMPORTANTLY, a health care provider, does that even matter?

 

[Tippytoe]

You mention that your just a regular OD and you don't possess any savvy business/marketing skills, but honestly, as an Optometrist or MORE IMPORTANTLY, a health care provider, does that even matter?

HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA.......................

 

[Shnurek]

I REALLY find it hard to believe that you had invested over 1 million dollars including tuition debt to purchase your practice. I mean, usually, practices sell at 1/3 gross revenue, and if you go by that you basically bought a practice that grossed 3 million a year. That's pretty hard to believe!

You mention that your just a regular OD and you don't possess any savvy business/marketing skills, but honestly, as an Optometrist or MORE IMPORTANTLY, a health care provider, does that even matter?

 

[Tippytoe]

Make no mistake-- being in optometry, you have to have more marketing skills/savy than just about any other health care provider other than perhaps chiropractors (how they sucker people to come to them is beyond me).

As an OD, you will not be working for a non-profit hospital. You will either be on your own (dog-eat-dog) or you will let a corporation do the business savy part for you (all the while whipping you like a pinata and taking most of the money ).

All you altrusitic, Prius-driving types, please remember. It's ALWAYS about the money! It's how the world works. The landlord wants his money. The electric company wants their money. The malpractice company wants their money.....etc......EVERYBODY WILL EXPECT YOU PAY TO PAY THEM.

No matter if your're a brain surgeon, OD or nurse assistant. Whomever you're working for has to make more money than they spend.........or you won't have a job. Unless they are sucking off the gov't tit......that's another story.

 

[KHE]

I REALLY find it hard to believe that you had invested over 1 million dollars including tuition debt to purchase your practice. I mean, usually, practices sell at 1/3 gross revenue, and if you go by that you basically bought a practice that grossed 3 million a year. That's pretty hard to believe!

If you want details, you can PM me.

You mention that your just a regular OD and you don't possess any savvy business/marketing skills, but honestly, as an Optometrist or MORE IMPORTANTLY, a health care provider, does that even matter?

Ummmmm.......yes it does.

 

[imemily]

If you want details, you can PM me.



Ummmmm.......yes it does.

The point I was trying to make in regards to business skills was that most people are thrifty when it comes to eye care products. They don't want a 40 minute eye exam and they want to ge out the doors as fast as possible, because let's face it, most people aren't bothered by their vision.

They don't really value their vision, and by extension, they don't value their optometrist...yes there are people who are the opposite, but the majority don't really care.

With that said, I truly question how far business skills can take you. No matter how good of. A bussiness man you are, your income will be capped due to public perception. If that is the case, which is up for debate, then being business savvy shouldn't really matter.

 

[KHE]

I want to clarify something about my early posting stating that I was a million dollars in debt between the practice and my student loans. That was not correct. The million dollars included my house. I forgot to add in the house. I was typing quickly and I was just trying to make the point that on the day I took over my practice, I owed over a million dollars. That part is correct. I was in for over a million.

My apologies for the confusion there.

 

[KHE]

The point I was trying to make in regards to business skills was that most people are thrifty when it comes to eye care products. They don't want a 40 minute eye exam and they want to ge out the doors as fast as possible, because let's face it, most people aren't bothered by their vision.

They don't really value their vision, and by extension, they don't value their optometrist...yes there are people who are the opposite, but the majority don't really care.

.

That's the challenge of being in private practice. You have to MAKE them care.

Here's the analogy I have used in the past....

In a couple of months, the new iPhone 5 will be coming out.

You can be certain that there will be line ups around the block of people just DYING to fork over hundreds of dollars and sign of for exhorbinant cell phone contracts to get their hands on an iPhone5 even though their iPhone4 works perfectly fine.

How do you create that same enthusaism in your practice? How do you get people to look at your practice and say "Oh my GOD, I have to be part of THAT."

If your answer is "you can't" then you're right.

If your answer is "you can" then you're right as well.

 

[Jason K]

Well that there is some truth in, however I don't think optometry is anywhere close to that. There are private "medical assistant" and "business" schools are here that train you for 2 years at $20,000 a year to be an assistant in an office somewhere making $30,000. That's crazy.

I don’t see how spending 40K to come out and make 30K is any worse than spending 200K to come out and make 75K. Actually, the initial ratio of cost to earnings is more favorable for the student coming out making 30K. As I've said before, it's the first 5-7 years after you graduate that can make or break you.

40K/30K=1.33
200K/75K=2.66

By that comparison, the medical assistant is coming out better than the OD.

The education bubble is a multi faceted problem that goes way beyond simple low interest rates on student loans. That in general doesn't help but the massive degree inflation we've seen in the last 15-20 years is the main culprit.

I never suggested that student loan interest is the primary problem right now. I’m not sure where that idea came from. It’s worse than it used to be, that’s for sure, but, as I stated in my previous post, the problem arose from unchecked tuition increase that was a direct result of the introduction of readily available federally funded student loan subsidies which caused an inevitable increase in tuition. When people can borrow virtually unlimited amounts of money to buy something, a degree, a home mortgage, whatever, the price will increase unless there is a check in place. That is where the “massive degree inflation” came from. So, in reality, the problem is not really multifaceted, it’s simple - the cost of education is too high now in most cases for what it returns, period. We can thank the federal government for the problem.

200,000 in student loans would result in a tax deductible payment of $15000 per year.

As far as the student loan interest write-off goes, $15K is not going to happen. You can’t deduct more than $2500 per year and depending on your income level, you may get stuck with nothing at all.

An excerpt from a summary of the related tax law.....

Limits
The maximum amount of student loan interest you can claim as a tax deduction is limited to $2,500.
The deduction is also limited by your total income. If your income is under $60,000 (or $120,000 for married couples filing a joint return), then you can deduct up to $2,500 in student loan interest.
If your income is over $60,000 but under $75,000 ($120,000 to $150,000 for married people filing jointly), then your deduction for student loan interest will be prorated.
If your income is over $75,000 ($150,000 MFJ), then your student loan interest is not deductible at all.
These phaseouts for the deduction will be the same for 2010 and for 2011, and the limitations are described in more detail in IRS Publication 970. Tax software will calculate the deductible portion of your student loan interest, or you can use the worksheet found in Publication 970.

Planning Ahead for 2013
The deduction for student loan interest will continue to be available to every person who is legally obligated to repay a student loan through the year 2012. Starting with the year 2013, the deduction will revert to an older law in which student loan interest will be deductible only for the first 60 months of repayment.

But go right on ahead Jason and keep coming up with reasons to not do something. You can always find them in any situation.

You're right, there are always going to be reasons not to do something. Just like there are reasons not to base-jump from a ten story building, run naked screaming through a lion enclosure while covered in raw, well-seasoned flank steaks, or go to a movie with Rob Schneider in the cast. In all of those cases, the likelihood of a positive outcome is far too low to justify the attempt, especially for the Rob Schneider situation. In my opinion, there are more reasons to stay out of optometry than there are reasons to go into it for most people applying today. You may disagree, but your opinion seems to be largely based on what YOU did, personally. As I've said many times, I don't think basing decisions on a few isolated experiences makes sense, and yes, that includes my own negative experience. What matters is the overall state of the profession as it relates to the prospective candidate's professional and life goals. Right now, most grads are going to have an outcome that drastically differs from what they desire. In some cases, that difference will be the fault of the graduate, just like in any profession. Right now, however, a large percentage of unhappy graduates are not unhappy because they did anything wrong, but because the profession is suffering and that trickles down to its grads. Optometry is not a healthy profession and the result of that disease is that a large percentage of graduates will enter Walmart-type practice after graduation because there's nowhere else to go. There are not enough spots for everyone to do what you've done. Your main argument seems to be that OD students can graduate, take out more loans, and purchase a successful practice for 400K, 500K, 600K, or more. Is that a potential path to success in optometry? Sure, for a few who are able to take that jump and make it work, if it does. However, one of the biggest problems with that standpoint is that there are simply not enough pieces of the pie to go around so most are still going to end up as refraction jockies. If every new grad who wanted to do what you did decided to go out and buy something, they’d run out of purchasing opportunities before very many people had something going. Even if every single OD that purchased a practice did well, there would still be many ODs left out in the cold. There aren’t enough GOOD places to go around. Sure there are crappy 2 day a week offices that people are trying to ditch to an unsuspecting buyer all over the place, but there isn't even close to enough good, healthy practices for sale to satisfy every grad who would like to do so.

Optometry is too expensive for what a grad gets in return these days, especially at the outset of a career. That’s my summary - plain and simple. Sure, there will be a few who get out and find their way into good positions, whatever that might be, but large numbers of grads are going to find their way into the inside of a Walmart against their intentions. The excess of existing ODs, the high numbers of new graduates, and the limited professional opportunities dictate that reality in most cases, not the graduates themselves.

Ok, once again, I’ve said my thing. Everyone on here knows how I feel and reverberating it over and over is not going to change anyone’s mind. That isn’t even my intention. My intention was to give a different perspective to optometry than the one that is the prevailing theme on this site; that optometry is a bowl of candies and marshmellows and that with hard work and perseverance, anyone can make a killing at it. It’s simply not a reality for many ODs. I don’t have any desire or intention to “convert” anyone. So, with that, I’ll adjourn again, hopefully for the last time.

 

[JAZZEYE]

So, with that, I’ll adjourn again, hopefully for the last time.

hopefully

 

[Jason K]

hopefully

Jazzeye, you're a wizard of comedic use of simple phrases. No really, I didn't see that coming. You should write for Conan or something - I'm impressed.

Also, you're a douche.

 

[Shnurek]

I don't think he is a douche. I thought it was pretty funny actually lol

 

[JAZZEYE]

Jazzeye, you're a wizard of comedic use of simple phrases. No really, I didn't see that coming. You should write for Conan or something - I'm impressed.

Also, you're a douche.

C'mon Jason just kidding you a little bit..you write 200 word essays, but nobody else can have something to say.
Are you really that thin skinned..that speaks volumes, you would probably struggle in any profession.

 

[Shnurek]

...that speaks volumes, you would probably struggle in any profession.

lol baus, Rick Ross

 

[Jason K]

C'mon Jason just kidding you a little bit..you write 200 word essays, but nobody else can have something to say.
Are you really that thin skinned..that speaks volumes, you would probably struggle in any profession.

Thin skinned? Where did you get that idea? I was merely pointing out the fact that you......are a douche. It speaks nothing to my skin thickness. Furthermore, if I had actually been offended and not simply amused by your wonderfully predictable comment, I would have used the term "massive douche," "mega douche," or perhaps even the grand-daddy of them all....."a complete douche bag." Not just a partial bag, but a complete one.

And Shnurek chiming in? What kind of screen name is Shnurek anyway? It sounds like something you'd get frozen off a ball at the dermatologist's office.

As in..... (said in a Spicoli voice)

"Duuuuude, I met this girl the other night, she was a little beat up, though....had a a huge tattoo of a flaming firebird with one large wing on each butt cheek. Things went a little crazy and now, a month later, I've got a huge shnurek on one my man-bags."

So, what I'd like to do here is this: Since this thread has clearly reached is useful end many posts ago, let's all just start hurling insults at each other for no particular reason. It will be fantastic.

 

[JAZZEYE]

Thin skinned? Where did you get that idea? I was merely pointing out the fact that you......are a douche. It speaks nothing to my skin thickness. Furthermore, if I had actually been offended and not simply amused by your wonderfully predictable comment, I would have used the term "massive douche," "mega douche," or perhaps even the grand-daddy of them all....."a complete douche bag." Not just a partial bag, but a complete one.

And Shnurek chiming in? What kind of screen name is Shnurek anyway? It sounds like something you'd get frozen off a ball at the dermatologist's office.

As in..... (said in a Spicoli voice)

"Duuuuude, I met this girl the other night, she was a little beat up, though....had a a huge tattoo of a flaming firebird with one large wing on each butt cheek. Things went a little crazy and now, a month later, I've got a huge shnurek on one my man-bags."

So, what I'd like to do here is this: Since this thread has clearly reached is useful end many posts ago, let's all just start hurling insults at each other for no particular reason. It will be fantastic.

Do you often have these temper tantrums like a 15 yr old child ?
You are not very compatable with being a professional if one word can set you off like that.

These comments appear as though you could be just a poor representation of the field,
and not the authority of experience you pretend to be.

I'll let you have the last word, because I know you need it.

 

[Jason K]

Do you often have these temper tantrums like a 15 yr old child ?
You are not very compatable with being a professional if one word can set you off like that.

These comments appear as though you could be just a poor representation of the field,
and not the authority of experience you pretend to be.

I'll let you have the last word, because I know you need it.

Wow, a temper tantrum? One, you must not have children and two, you must not read much in your life beyond the Wills Eye Manual.

If you would have read beyond the words of the written page, such as a well-read professional might be capable of doing, you'd have understood that the purpose of my last post was not only to mirror the childishness of your one-word response to my final post, but also to indirectly point to the uselessness of this thread as it moves forward. Have you ever heard of the word "satire?" Sometimes people write things that are not meant to be taken literally. They do this to highlight their point, but often times un-read and/or simple-minded folks misinterpret the meaning behind the words. You might benefit from reading something like Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal." It's a well known satirical essay which would be less of a challenge to a beginning reader. Try it out, you might like it.

Also, you spelled compatible wrong. How unprofessional of you.......



_

 

[KHE]

I asked this once before but I got no response....

When did the word "douche" make a comeback into the lexicon?

When I was a teenager, I sometimes heard the expression "douchebag" but it was rarely if ever used. The only time it was ever used en masse was I saw an old SNL skit once where they had an English nobleman and his wife named Lord and Lady Douchebag. It was funny but it just wasn't used that much in public.

Now, all I ever hear is frat boys spouting off that this person is a douche or that person is a douche.

Where is that coming from? Does someone on the Jersey Shore use that word or something?

 

[netmag]

These comments appear as though you could be just a poor representation of the field,
and not the authority of experience you pretend to be.

This may be the understatement of the year.

 

[Jason K]

I asked this once before but I got no response....

When did the word "douche" make a comeback into the lexicon?

When I was a teenager, I sometimes heard the expression "douchebag" but it was rarely if ever used. The only time it was ever used en masse was I saw an old SNL skit once where they had an English nobleman and his wife named Lord and Lady Douchebag. It was funny but it just wasn't used that much in public.

Now, all I ever hear is frat boys spouting off that this person is a douche or that person is a douche.

Where is that coming from? Does someone on the Jersey Shore use that word or something?

Wikipedia says:

Douche bag, or simply douche, is considered to be a pejorative term. The slang usage of the term originated in the 1960s.[5] The term usually refers to a person, usually male, with a variety of negative qualities, specifically arrogance and engaging in obnoxious and/or irritating actions, most often without malicious intent.

See also: Netmag (synonym)

 

[netmag]

I'll let you have the last word, because I know you need it.

All I'll say is that it's a common M.O. of most internet forum trolls.

 

[Shnurek]

Hey, I know I'm going into a good profession when full optometrists have time to troll forums lol