KCUMB to offer MD,DO degree?????

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EM2BE said:
In addition, I know of several people that did not care for Pletz, or at least all the politics she brought to the school. I think the school may benefit from having someone other than a lawyer as president for a little while. I agree she did great things for the school, but the things she messed up have not mentioned in light of the fact that she was fired and everyone is trying to be nice.
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Yup. :thumbup:
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So is it cut and dry...if a school is listed on VSAS it wants nothing to do with DO's as far as visiting rotations?

I always thought University of Washington was DO friendly

Edit: Nm, they don't seem to have a single DO resident in IM, though some of the FMGs I couldn't pronounce their alma mater to save my life. Found one DO resident in FP.
 
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EM2BE said:
In the midst of all this, you are all forgetting that if you want the MD title, you can go to the appropriate school to get it. No one ever said you had/have to go to an osteopathic school. It is/was your choice to get the DO title, therefore, you will deal with the complications that come with it. You know these complications before making your decision to apply so there is no excuse that it's something new (unless you are currently in school and have to deal with VSAS and didn't have the warning). Everything you do in life will affect you later on. You have to make the correct decision for yourself and deal with any consequences that come with it.

In addition, I know of several people that did not care for Pletz, or at least all the politics she brought to the school. I think the school may benefit from having someone other than a lawyer as president for a little while. I agree she did great things for the school, but the things she messed up have not mentioned in light of the fact that she was fired and everyone is trying to be nice.
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Well, as a first year who did plenty of research before applying to DO schools, this is the first I'm hearing about VSAS and restricting rotations.
 
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EmersonAnne said:
Well, as a first year who did plenty of research before applying to DO schools, this is the first I'm hearing about VSAS and restricting rotations.
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This popped up recently, so you likely didn't read anything about it when you were applying. Many places will allow you to apply via a paper application (as all away rotation applicants used to do before this year). It seems very program dependent, so I would check the websites and if you can't find any information there, e-mail the medical student coordinator. Good luck!
 
MLT2MT2DO said:
So is it cut and dry...if a school is listed on VSAS it wants nothing to do with DO's as far as visiting rotations?

I always thought University of Washington was DO friendly

Edit: Nm, they don't seem to have a single DO resident in IM, though some of the FMGs I couldn't pronounce their alma mater to save my life. Found one DO resident in FP.
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No, definitely not cut and dry. It is certainly easier for US MD students to apply for rotations this way and many if not most programs are converting to this method. That does not mean programs are opposed to DO students doing away rotations. First, check the website to see if it addresses the process for osteopathic visiting students (on many websites there is and it usually involves simply sending a paper application). If it does not say anything about this, contact the medical student clinical coordinator. If the website specifically says it does not accept osteopathic students, then obviously I would worry about its "DO friendliness." You can also look at the residents in the program as you have. If they've never had a DO resident in the history of their program (and they're established), you may have an uphill battle. If there are no DO residents in the three years (or however long the residency is), then you definitely need to investigate to see whether it will be a place where you will be treated fairly and more importantly enjoy working as a resident. Good luck.
 
MLT2MT2DO said:
So is it cut and dry...if a school is listed on VSAS it wants nothing to do with DO's as far as visiting rotations?

I always thought University of Washington was DO friendly

Edit: Nm, they don't seem to have a single DO resident in IM, though some of the FMGs I couldn't pronounce their alma mater to save my life. Found one DO resident in FP.
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I don't think most VSAS sites are banning DO students yet. What is happening is that in many places the allo students are getting the pick of rotations first and the DO students get the remaining crumbs which I think will get smaller as the allo schools keep ramping up their enrollments.
 
in the midst of all this, you are all forgetting that if you want the MD title, you can go to the appropriate school to get it. No one ever said you had/have to go to an osteopathic school. It is/was your choice to get the DO title, therefore, you will deal with the complications that come with it. You know these complications before making your decision to apply so there is no excuse that it's something new
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Agreed 100%



I think that patients would benefit from the survival of this move to get LCME accreditation
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I don't know of one single thread of evidence that AOA/COCA standards have a higher incidence of care by DOs below the standard of care...

And believe me, I've searched for it...



If they weren't less strict, we wouldn't see new schools and offshoots opening up every day without strong funding and without any real plan to guarantee good clinical training for their students.
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So the strictness in question here is that which deals with ability to open new schools and their characteristics??
 
MedStudentWanna said:
Rejoicing in someone else's firing? I'd hate to have your karma.
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I don't think Siggy was hoping to see her fired, but was instead pointing out what an unfortunate coincidence the timing of her firing brought about.

But, I could be wrong.

ETA - You'll also note that his MDApps indicates that he is attending Western, and thusly would probably not have much of an opinion on the president of a school (s?)he doesn't even attend.
 
Physio Doc 2 Be said:
I don't think Siggy was hoping to see her fired, but was instead pointing out what an unfortunate coincidence the timing of her firing brought about.
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This. Like the Target employees who got fired for buying Zhu Zhu pets...
 
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Siggy said:
This. Like the Target employees who got fired for buying Zhu Zhu pets...
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In that case, I sincerely apologize. I shouldnt' have jumped on you like that.
 
exPCM said:
I don't think most VSAS sites are banning DO students yet. What is happening is that in many places the allo students are getting the pick of rotations first and the DO students get the remaining crumbs which I think will get smaller as the allo schools keep ramping up their enrollments.
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I spoke with a friend at a MD school in the same area who said not to worry about the whole VSAS system. He said he only used it to decide where he wanted to rotate and then set up all his 4th year rotations outside of the system (the old way).
 
UHS97 said:
I would just say to the students and applicants not to worry as this will pass. Work hard during your rotations/residency and you will succeed. Neither the AOA nor the KCUMB board can hold you back.

As a retina surgeon who completed an ACGME residency and fellowship, trust me when I say, you can do anything you want as long as you shine on your rotations/residency.
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Thanks for your encouraging words! That is the message that needs to be out there right now, not the sky is falling:p
 
Instatewaiter said:
This entire debate boils down to whether a person is interested in improving osteopathic education or if he clings to an antiquated, reactionary notion about what it means to be a DO.

The change will open up numerous opportunities for students including but not limited to more opportunities for away rotations, better prospects in the match and fellowship and being treated as an equal (which let's be honest, is far from universal). It will also force schools to adhere to a higher standard than they already do (namely the LCME's standards). For years I have heard my fellow medical students complain that their rotations were sub-par and forced them to travel across the country. COCA and the AOA did noting. The new for profit osteopathic school just shows how out of touch with its student base COCA and thr AOA actually are.

In addition to improving educational opportunities for students, the initiation of the dual degree will improve osteopathic education as a whole. This change will force schools to raise their standards and become LCME accredited or be seen as second tier. Can you honestly say this is a bad thing, to constantly be striving for improvement? Isn't that one of the core ideals of the profession? If a school currently could not live up to the LCME's standards and is doing nothing about it, the students are bearing the brunt for an institution'd laziness, greed, or inability to provide excellent education.

The detractors say that this will be the end of the DO identity. Unfortunately I have news for such people. 3he separate identity a myth. Instead it is a state of mind that has nothing to do with the degree and everything to do with a person's goals in treatment and pwrspective on intrractions with patients. So what the detractors have left is nothing more than than holding on to an antiquated idea for old times sake.

In reality the merging of the degrees means that Osteopathic training is now seen as essentiall on the same plane as the allopathic colleagues. This is a good thing and shows just how much the mainstram has come to accept DOs and how DO education has improved over the decades.
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:thumbup::thumbup: I could not have said that better. That sums up what I have had rolling around in my head while reading this stuff.
 
MomRNtoDO said:
http://www.lcme.org/newschoolprocess.htm

This is the link for the school currently seeking LCME accreditation. You can get all the info you need just going to the LCME site. There are 2 DO schools in process already.
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Which two? I don't see any. Although I find it difficult to find the tub of butter in the refrigerator also. :-\ I'm a guy, what can I say.
 
MomRNtoDO said:
:thumbup::thumbup: I could not have said that better. That sums up what I have had rolling around in my head while reading this stuff.
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Why not just merge LCME and COCA into one accrediting body that accredits institutions awarding either the MD or DO degree? DO accreditation standards could still include OPP/OMT, etc. The new accreditation body would be coordinated between both the AMA and AOA.
 
tideleonheart said:
Which two? I don't see any. Although I find it difficult to find the tub of butter in the refrigerator also. :-\ I'm a guy, what can I say.
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Touro, and I may be mistaken, but isn't the Texas University of Health Sciences DO? I may be wrong on that.
 
MomRNtoDO said:
Touro, and I may be mistaken, but isn't the Texas University of Health Sciences DO? I may be wrong on that.
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Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center is not a DO school and neither is Touro University College of Medicine in New Jersey. You must be mistaking TTUHSC for TCOM, which is an existing college of osteopathic medicine at the University of North Texas. Also, while the name, "Touro," in which I think the parent organization is Touro College, has been associated with a whole bunch of colleges of osteopathic medicine, such as TUCOM in CA, Touro College in NY, and TUNV in NV, the one in NJ has never been an osteopathic medical school, as far as I know.
 
exPCM said:
VSAS is being used by 64 LCME medical schools (and rising) http://www.aamc.org/programs/vsas/students/start.htm
This is the LCME response to the unparalleled growth of osteopathic schools - they are preserving rotation spots for the growing numbers of allopathic students. The inevitable result of this is that the rotation slots available at VSAS institutions for DO students will continue to dwindle as they are left with the decreasing crumbs remaining after the allopathic students have taken their fill.
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Could someone explain to me how giving a dual MD/DO degree would serve to alleviate this problem? If any program director/program/hospital is going to have an anti-DO bias, won't that bias remain even if we throw the coveted MD initials at the end of the names along with the DO?
 
If I understand correctly, VSAS is still in trial stages. I believe with enough pressure osteopathic students could include themselves in the system. They seem to leave that as an open option on their website:

7. Can Canadian, international and osteopathic students use VSAS?
VSAS is not yet available for international, osteopathic, or students enrolled at Canadian medical schools to use. Please use the Extramural Electives Compendium (EEC) for visiting student application information.
 
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engineeredout said:
Could someone explain to me how giving a dual MD/DO degree would serve to alleviate this problem? If any program director/program/hospital is going to have an anti-DO bias, won't that bias remain even if we throw the coveted MD initials at the end of the names along with the DO?
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Yeah. Here's the issue ... the only thing that would alleviate bias is if the schools were LCME accredited, and frankly, this is going to happen. This means that a move towards MD, DO is going to still involve AOA/COCA cred, so really won't fix the problem on that front. However,I think the idea is that even if it was still through the AOA, it would still help clarify with patients, unite as doctors in a time when even the techs are doctors of technological medicine, and would also probably accompany things like opening OCGME to MD students, etc.
 
ncguy2005 said:
If I understand correctly, VSAS is still in trial stages. I believe with enough pressure osteopathic students could include themselves in the system. They seem to leave that as an open option on their website:

7. Can Canadian, international and osteopathic students use VSAS?
VSAS is not yet available for international, osteopathic, or students enrolled at Canadian medical schools to use. Please use the Extramural Electives Compendium (EEC) for visiting student application information.

Hopefully in the next few years they'll expand their system to include osteopathic students... I'm trying to be optimistic.
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It seems like DO students could be included eventually, but as of now, it still doesn't ban them (they just kinda go second for rotation spots), and lots of people are saying that MD students only use VSAS to see where they want to rotate, then get spots the old fashioned way. It probably could go both ways (good or bad), but will end up being like everything else and just result in small changes that reach homeostasis eventually.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Yeah. Here's the issue ... the only thing that would alleviate bias is if the schools were LCME accredited, and frankly, this is going to happen. This means that a move towards MD, DO is going to still involve AOA/COCA cred, so really won't fix the problem on that front. However,I think the idea is that even if it was still through the AOA, it would still help clarify with patients, unite as doctors in a time when even the techs are doctors of technological medicine, and would also probably accompany things like opening OCGME to MD students, etc.
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I think the bolded statements are good points.
 
engineeredout said:
Could someone explain to me how giving a dual MD/DO degree would serve to alleviate this problem? If any program director/program/hospital is going to have an anti-DO bias, won't that bias remain even if we throw the coveted MD initials at the end of the names along with the DO?
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If the school is accredited by the LCME then there should be no question of the quality of the institution when compared to other LCME institutions. Just like taking the USMLE is the great equalizer for many program directors who might have had doubts before, I think that having dual accreditation would remove any remaining doubts (in particular areas of the country/particular age groups) that a program is completely equal to MD granting institutions. At that point, the DO philosophy and additional OMM training truly becomes the asset that it is. In other words, there can be no doubt that our students are getting the best medical education that the US has to offer.
 
JaggerPlate said:
It seems like DO students could be included eventually, but as of now, it still doesn't ban them (they just kinda go second for rotation spots), and lots of people are saying that MD students only use VSAS to see where they want to rotate, then get spots the old fashioned way. It probably could go both ways (good or bad), but will end up being like everything else and just result in small changes that reach homeostasis eventually.
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I think they are waiting for Osteo match to open to allo kids before letting DOs onto the VSAs, just a hunch.
 
Handy388 said:
I think they are waiting for Osteo match to open to allo kids before letting DOs onto the VSAs, just a hunch.
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My guess would be that they don't give a **** about MDs not being allowing to participate in the DO residencies, and they simply set VSAS up to cater to their own students/keep it from being over run by FMGs. I also don't think that's unfair to be honest. Just my hunch ...
 
Handy388 said:
I think they are waiting for Osteo match to open to allo kids before letting DOs onto the VSAs, just a hunch.
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I wouldn't think it's that and do think it's foreseeable that VSAS will open to DOs. However, VSAS as it is currently is reciprocal -- all the students who use VSAS came from schools that allow other VSAS students to rotate there. Since MD students don't rotate at DO schools, their using VSAS wouldn't fit with the reciprocal setup.
 
Doctor Bagel said:
I wouldn't think it's that and do think it's foreseeable that VSAS will open to DOs. However, VSAS as it is currently is reciprocal -- all the students who use VSAS came from schools that allow other VSAS students to rotate there. Since MD students don't rotate at DO schools, their using VSAS wouldn't fit with the reciprocal setup.
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I think one of the big weaknesses of DO schools is the clinical sites since many are not associated with large academic medical centers. Instead, we are shipped out all over the country to smaller community hospitals. I'm kind of curious why MD students would want to go to DO clinical sites. That's why I don't buy the whole reciprocity thing, but who knows....and the only reason that MD students want to be able to participate in the DO match is to increase their chances of matching into highly competitive specialties such as ortho or optho IMHO
 
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Bitsy said:
I think one of the big weaknesses of DO schools is the clinical sites since many are not associated with large academic medical centers. Instead, we are shipped out all over the country to smaller community hospitals. I'm kind of curious why MD students would want to go to DO clinical sites. That's why I don't buy the whole reciprocity thing, but who knows....and the only reason that MD students want to be able to participate in the DO match is to increase their chances of matching into highly competitive specialties such as ortho or optho IMHO
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I received an email regarding VSAS and whether it caused problems for me during setting up my 4th year rotations. It was a survey from the AOA. I think it will be open to DO students soon.

I can't stand the AOA and COCA. Why must they make it harder on us. Honestly speaking, I do not blame the MD residencies from not wanting to accept a DO without the USMLE. I did not take the USMLE and I have interviewed at some very good places, but you should really take it.
 
HopefulDoc2007 said:
If the school is accredited by the LCME then there should be no question of the quality of the institution when compared to other LCME institutions. Just like taking the USMLE is the great equalizer for many program directors who might have had doubts before, I think that having dual accreditation would remove any remaining doubts (in particular areas of the country/particular age groups) that a program is completely equal to MD granting institutions. At that point, the DO philosophy and additional OMM training truly becomes the asset that it is. In other words, there can be no doubt that our students are getting the best medical education that the US has to offer.
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:thumbup:

http://m.kansascity.com/kcstar/db_1...contentguid=iSGNtNQL&detailindex=7&pn=0&ps=10

This is a long link I know, but it's the raw post from today's KC Star. My husband called to let me know about it. It almost sounds like some of the quotes come right from the AOA president's blog. What do you think? If this is the only grounds, then I say fight, Karen Pletz! If for no other reason than to have DO's recognized as equals, not that we need to change our initials, but if we do become recognized by the same licensing/accrediting bodies, wouldn't that be enough? It has been an uphill battle, and I don't want to see this set all the progress back.

I like the way the Star attempted to describe the differences and similarities between MD and DO. At least they tried.
 
MomRNtoDO said:
:thumbup:

http://m.kansascity.com/kcstar/db_1...contentguid=iSGNtNQL&detailindex=7&pn=0&ps=10

This is a long link I know, but it's the raw post from today's KC Star. My husband called to let me know about it. It almost sounds like some of the quotes come right from the AOA president's blog. What do you think? If this is the only grounds, then I say fight, Karen Pletz! If for no other reason than to have DO's recognized as equals, not that we need to change our initials, but if we do become recognized by the same licensing/accrediting bodies, wouldn't that be enough? It has been an uphill battle, and I don't want to see this set all the progress back.

I like the way the Star attempted to describe the differences and similarities between MD and DO. At least they tried.
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The AOA is our own worse enemy not the allopathic institutions. I hope after these diehards start to die off we can get some people in there with some common sense. However, I still have the whackos in my class that believe in cranial.
 
Bitsy said:
I think one of the big weaknesses of DO schools is the clinical sites since many are not associated with large academic medical centers. Instead, we are shipped out all over the country to smaller community hospitals. I'm kind of curious why MD students would want to go to DO clinical sites. That's why I don't buy the whole reciprocity thing, but who knows....and the only reason that MD students want to be able to participate in the DO match is to increase their chances of matching into highly competitive specialties such as ortho or optho IMHO
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Well, yeah, they probably wouldn't, but it would still add a group of people using the system who had nothing to offer to other people using the system. So I can see the VSAS point in not having osteopathic schools. If osteopathic schools do participate, I would see charging them greater fees to make up for the fact that they're not bringing sites to the table that are beneficial for other users.

And of course this leads to the bigger issue -- if osteopathic medicine is going to thrive, schools need to start having clinical sites that are equivalent to allopathic clinical sites. So, again, AOA/COCA needs to increase their accreditation requirements instead of sitting back and allowing new schools to open every 2 minutes.
 
Doctor Bagel said:
Well, yeah, they probably wouldn't, but it would still add a group of people using the system who had nothing to offer to other people using the system.
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another reason why I think MD match should be closed to DOs unless DO match opens to MD.
 
Is anyone here ever sorry they went to a DO school? First let me clarify, I feel like I am getting an awesome education and I do not mind the other stuff that comes along with being a DO. However, I do find the AOA and the other leaders of our profession to be frustrating. I am neither a proponent or opponent of a degree change, but I feel they could make our profession more recognized and successful. I have made my suggestions on this thread so I'll leave it at that.

I just wish we could have more realistic and levelheaded people leading us such as the dean of KCUMB. She seems to have her finger on the pulse.
 
I agree the DO GME should be open to MDs. I personally have no regrets about going to a DO school. It was go to a DO school or sit out a year and reapply. Honestly, I would have gone to an MD school if I would have gotten in to one. But with a lot of hard work you can obtain your proffesional goals in a DO or MD school. I firmly believe that. In my case I am applying to a competitive field only allopathic programs. I have received the exact amount of interviews I wanted. I will admit that I would probably have more interviews in some more prestigous programs with my same application but with an MD degree. However, I do feel blessed to in my position and I feel my DO degree will enable me to reach my goals.
 
Bitsy said:
I think one of the big weaknesses of DO schools is the clinical sites since many are not associated with large academic medical centers. Instead, we are shipped out all over the country to smaller community hospitals. I'm kind of curious why MD students would want to go to DO clinical sites. That's why I don't buy the whole reciprocity thing, but who knows....and the only reason that MD students want to be able to participate in the DO match is to increase their chances of matching into highly competitive specialties such as ortho or optho IMHO
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I agree in a way. But I think that if MDs were allowed into OGME programs, they would be treated similarly to DO's in the MD match. It only makes sense, MD's usually get first priority in their own match, and so should DO's in their's. However, I do think its only fair that we allow MD's in.

People on here can argue all they want that the quality of DO rotation sites and residencies are lower than the allopathic ones, but I believe when it all comes down to it, the allopathic student that wants to become an ortho or ophtho won't really mind doing a DO residency if it means they can reach their career goals.
 
Honestly, I think we need to stop connecting the two together. It is entirely possible that it is a coincidence that the letter was sent out the same day that she was fired. KCUMB said in their statement that they had an independent, confidential investigation months prior to this and the decision to terminate was unanimous.

Read this article: http://voices.kansascity.com/node/7028

Purely speculating, I believe it is possible that the termination was for financial reasons. Of course it could also be a combination or something completely different. Bottom line, we simply do not know.
 
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