Religion among Premeds

[AspiringERMD]

No they're not. They're both differing philosophical view points. This is blunt (I'm tired, it's late, and have to move in 8 hours), so I apologize in advance, but please do some research on the topics, and don't try to generalize what you read to fit a preconceived schema.

And please let the aforementioned research not be opinion pieces.

Fair enough on the opinion piece, but it was late and that explained it well.

I think it's possible you are assuming that all atheism is positive atheism.

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[deleted407021]

@didymus

I'm a guy, actually. If you can point to evidence of me being "antagonistic and belligerent" I would like to know. It would seem that someone like yourself who makes curt posts and levels accusations against amiable posters who simply state opinions is the one leaning more towards the side of antagonism. I never claimed that the morality of the non believer is superior to that of the Christian, however, one must only look within scripture to see the corruption that was ancient morality:
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18 NAB)

Slavery is condoned and supported by god. People who get angry and lash out against their parents are executed. Women must do as their husbands say because that's what god wants. These are among thousand of such examples of the "morality" touted by the scriptures. These were cultures that wanted to suppress women and free thought. These cultures wanted to maintain their institutions of slavery, so why not say god is okay with it? Terrible brutality, infanticide and genocide are encouraged and their perpetrators venerated within the bible. Why does one need a god - the existence for whom there is no evidence - to tell us not to kill other people, or steal their property, or harm their children? Is the bible the only reason some people adhere to these morals? Is it because god will punish you for eternity if you don't do as he says? I can draw my morality from reason. I don't steal, harm or hurt anyone because I don't want that to be done to me, and I am concerned with the well-being of my fellow people, not because I am enslaved to the eternal will of a genocidal deity.

I'll reiterate it, here. I do not draw my morality from the bible. As I said, there are obvious things which are shared between the religious and the non religious, namely the "golden rule"; treat others as you would like to be treated. But I am able to determine these things for myself without the input of an unverifiable and non falsifiable book written thousands of years ago and which relies of circular reasoning in order to believe is true.
My rejection of their morality is not baseless, as you propose. As I have cited above, these were characteristically brutal cultures which condoned and perpetrated terrible acts of bloodshed and oppression against humans and non humans alike. I reject these people's tribalistic justice systems in favor of a rational, and fact based system of morals which aims to reduce suffering, improve the quality of life for my fellow humans and mete out justice to those who interfere with the personal liberties of other people.

You state that an atheistic point of view cannot justify morality. I am not certain what you mean by that and would love for you to explain it further. All the justification I need for morality is the reduction of the infringements of the liberties of those around me and the reduction of harm to those same people. Do unto others...
I'd like to know what you know about atheism. Based on your post, I'm led to think that you have a knee jerk reaction toward us and operate under the assumption that we cannot be morally grounded since we don't hold a belief in some kind of god or supernatural authority.

I don't believe in the judeo-chrisitan god or any other gods because there is no evidence for their existence. I go where the evidence takes me. It's as simple as that. Also, you seem to claim that it is set in stone that the people who are claimed to have written certain books of the bible did in fact exist in the same way we think of them now. That makes little sense in the light of the fact that little evidence exists for the validity of many of these ancient figures, especially in the old testament. There is no way to be sure about the authors of these books aside from the fact that they lived in the middle east in terribly brutal cultures. I, for one, will place my trust in rationality, verifiable science and the ideals proposed by more contemporary thinkers, as well as the conclusions I come to by my own accord.

And to your last sentence: Shame on you for attempting to direct the attention of others away from rational discourse. Telling people that someone is to be ignored simply because they have a differing opinion is abhorrent and is telling of an individual who is insecure in their own convictions and principles to the point of being afraid that others may align themselves with those who you oppose.

 

[CTU Surgeon]

@J Senpai
By saying that you base your morality in not doing to others what you wouldn't like done unto yourself you actually are basing your morality in what the Savior teaches in the Bible in Matthew 7:12. #justsayin'

 

[Amba]

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord. (Colossians 3:18 NAB)

You quoted a couple Old Testament (and Old Law) Bible verses and one of Paul's letters without relevant context. ......cool?

I'm fine with your argument and respect your point of view, but quoting the Bible without context and without a firm grasp of scripture doesn't help your cause.

 

[Danbo1957]

DNA proves heredity, which proves that humans evolved. There is no God, never has been, never will be. Anyone who believes in a god is to be dismissed outright.

 

[didymus]

I've pointed this out elsewhere, and I will do so again here to make a point: It is next to impossible for any modern atheist to say their sense of morality is not derived from Judeo-Christian scriptures, due to the incalculable influence Christianity, in particular, has had on the development of the Western world. One of my philosophy professors in undergrad, who was an outspoken atheist, admitted this much.

It's very convenient for atheists to talk extensively about their ability to be "moral without God," while benefitting so greatly from the moral ethos established and cultivated by Christianity. This is evident, especially, by those like @J Senpai, who say they do not derive anything from the Bible, while framing their morality in the next sentence by Christian principles.

 

[deleted407021]

You quoted a couple Old Testament (and Old Law) Bible verses and one of Paul's letters without relevant context. ......cool?

I'm fine with your argument and respect your point of view, but quoting the Bible without context and without a firm grasp of scripture doesn't help your cause.

I'd like you to point out where any of those quotations would in any defensible manner be considered moral. Additionally, the argument that the "old law" no longer applies to Christians because Jesus died and created a "new law" makes no sense in the context of our society because we still cherry pick what little rules we still want to maintain and conveniently leave out those which, by the same standard, should also be closely adhered to. Sure we don't stone prostitutes or cut off the hand of a woman who accidentally touches the genitals of a man, but we do discriminate against sexual minorities and place women in a lower social position. One doesn't need to quote something directly in context to point out the fact that the statement is immoral and not worthy of consideration in this era.

I've pointed this out elsewhere, and I will do so again here to make a point: It is next to impossible for any modern atheist to say their sense of morality is not derived from Judeo-Christian scriptures, due to the incalculable influence Christianity, in particular, has had on the development of the Western world. One of my philosophy professors in undergrad, who was an outspoken atheist, admitted this much.

It's very convenient for atheists to talk extensively about their ability to be "moral without God," while benefitting so greatly from the moral ethos established and cultivated by Christianity. This is evident, especially, by those like @J Senpai, who say they do not derive anything from the Bible, while framing their morality in the next sentence by Christian principles.

I have expressly stated that I don't follow the teachings of the Bible because of the examples I have given. I do not align myself with the teachings. The assumption you seem to be making is that morality originated with the scripture - as if there are no other similar religious doctrines in the world - and thus did not originate with man. I, however, do not believe in god and do not suggest the presupposition that he exists, so I am certain that the Bible was composed by man, alone. Therefor, if morality was present in these people then morality existed before the writing of the bible. Morality exists in other animals and is an evolutionarily favorable trait because it promotes cooperation, sacrifice for others and support of the greater whole, thus making the animals in which it manifests more likely to successfully reproduce.

 

[CTU Surgeon]

I'd like you to point out where any of those quotations would in any defensible manner be considered moral. Additionally, the argument that the "old law" no longer applies to Christians because Jesus died and created a "new law" makes no sense in the context of our society because we still cherry pick what little rules we still want to maintain and conveniently leave out those which, by the same standard, should also be closely adhered to. Sure we don't stone prostitutes or cut off the hand of a woman who accidentally touches the genitals of a man, but we do discriminate against sexual minorities and place women in a lower social position. One doesn't need to quote something directly in context to point out the fact that the statement is immoral and not worthy of consideration in this era.


I have expressly stated that I don't follow the teachings of the Bible because of the examples I have given. I do not align myself with the teachings. The assumption you seem to be making is that morality originated with the scripture - as if there are no other similar religious doctrines in the world - and thus did not originate with man. I, however, do not believe in god and do not suggest the presupposition that he exists, so I am certain that the Bible was composed by man, alone. Therefor, if morality was present in these people then morality existed before the writing of the bible. Morality exists in other animals and is an evolutionarily favorable trait because it promotes cooperation, sacrifice for others and support of the greater whole, thus making the animals in which it manifests more likely to successfully reproduce.

This made me laugh, not because I think it's stupid, just because the theory that morality is an evolutionary advantage is argued in a Verbal Reasoning passage I encountered in the AAMC practice material.

 

[Amba]

Additionally, the argument that the "old law" no longer applies to Christians because Jesus died and created a "new law" makes no sense in the context of our society because we still cherry pick what little rules we still want to maintain and conveniently leave out those which, by the same standard, should also be closely adhered to

So rather than account for something you clearly already know about scripture, you prefer to cherry pick verses from the Old Law and disregard that - in today's time and society - the Old Law is no longer relevant? Makes sense

but we do discriminate against sexual minorities

Find me a verse where we are directed to discriminate against sexual minorities.

and place women in a lower social position.

I encourage you to do some more reading about early (BC) secular society's views towards women. When accounting for context, the Christian view was fairly progressive. Read the latter half of Ephesians 5 too.

 

[deleted407021]

So rather than account for something you clearly already know about scripture, you prefer to cherry pick verses from the Old Law and disregard that - in today's time and society - the Old Law is no longer relevant? Makes sense

Assuming that the "Law" ever applied assumes authority behind the law, which assumes the existence of god, which cannot be assumed because there is no evidence of god.

Find me a verse where we are directed to discriminate against sexual minorities.

Leviticus 18:22
"Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin." (NLT)
Leviticus 20:13
"If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense." (NLT)
Romans 1:18-32
...That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved...
Jude 7
And don't forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God's judgment. (NIV)

I encourage you to do some more reading about early (BC) secular society's views towards women. When accounting for context, the Christian view was radically progressive. Read the latter half of Ephesians 5 too.

1 Corinthians 11:5 ESV
But every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.

Ephesians 5 verse 22
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Regardless of what is later said about men loving and serving their wives, they are no less put in a role of servitude and unwavering respect for men. In fact, they must have the same respect for their husband as they do for god. They must fear and revere him, but he is not expected to do the same.


I would like to see yourself and @didymus defend your own morality and that touted in the scriptures.

EDIT: That is not to say y'all aren't moral people. I just would like to gain a better understudying of y'all's stances.

You know what? No. @plumazul is right. This is silly. I don't see anyone altering their beliefs. I won't change mine until I'm presented with evidence and the christians won't change their's until..well, they come to some realization like myself and thousands of other atheists/agnostics/freethinkers/secularists have and that's up to them.

 

[plumazul]

 

[LMBLBM]

Religion came after morality. Religion is nothing to do with it. Violence, corruptions and sufferings done under the name of God are just countless. If God does exist, I bet he is a man in vegetated state.

 

[Amba]

EDIT: That is not to say y'all aren't moral people. I just would like to gain a better understudying of y'all's stances.

...and the christians won't change their's until..well, they come to some realization like myself and thousands of other atheists/agnostics/freethinkers/secularists have and that's up to them.

Your top line was a pseudo-attempt at being diplomatic. The bottom sentence makes it clear that you view yourself and your viewpoint as "enlightened" and anyone else as, well...something else.

If you are going to engage in conversation by attacking someone else's beliefs - honestly, that's fine with me. I have had some great conversations and developed some close friendships through conversations that started that way. But if you do that, be prepared to converse within the context of those particular beliefs. The fact that you won't distinguish between the Old Law and New Covenant, which is a major part of scripture, makes any further discourse moot.

 

[ct303]

DNA proves heredity, which proves that humans evolved. There is no God, never has been, never will be. Anyone who believes in a god is to be dismissed outright.

I wish you would have said that to your religious ancestors before they brought you into existence. Science, much to your dismay is also quite circular in reasoning as well. You are looking at observations of events and activities trying to describe the causation. The laws of causation are therefore founded in the observation of the event rather than the actual cause. Example: "why do planes fall out of the sky?" One student asks. A scientist replies "gravity." The students asks "well how do you know it's gravity?" Scientist: "gravity pulls things down." Can't see gravity, can't taste or touch gravity. Yet we have defined gravity as the cause pulling something down towards earth. And how to we know it exists? Well, because things get pulled towards earth.

What's more entertaining is that people such as yourself, and countless other atheists and scientists think that religious people have discounted science completely. I am indeed religious. However, I have been able to reconcile science with religion. If you asked a religious person why planes fall out of the sky, you expect them to answer that it was God's will. In reality, the majority of us would probably answer gravity too. Not because there are holes in our religious beliefs, but because we have reconciled science and religion.

 

[aegistitan]

I thought this was a good place to ask this...

I recently became a minister. Would it be unwise to mention this activity on my medical school application?

edit - Would it also be unwise to mention that while volunteering at a hospice I read religious texts to patients that cannot read themselves and attend vigil services?

Just wondering whether or not mentioning religious activities is unwise.

 

[CTU Surgeon]

I have a sincere question for the atheists and/or agnostics. Among that community, what is the belief about life after death and the belief about the purpose of life?

 

[deleted407021]

I have a sincere question for the atheists and/or agnostics. Among that community, what is the belief about life after death and the belief about the purpose of life?

Non believers like myself are a fairly diverse group, but the prevailing answer would be that we don't know. Most of us believe that there are two voids of non existence; the one before your conception and the one after your death. When you die, you're just not here anymore.

Life has no inherent purpose. We are here because a beautiful and extremely long period of evolution. We make our own purpose and the knowdge that this life is the only one we have pushes many of us to do our best and make the most of it. Purpose in life varies from one person to another because everyone of us chooses to make our lives what we want them to be. We each wish to leave a legacy and be a part of the story of the cosmos.

 

[ct303]

Non believers like myself are a fairly diverse group, but the prevailing answer would be that we don't know. Most of us believe that there are two voids of non existence; the one before your conception and the one after your death. When you die, you're just not here anymore.

Life has no inherent purpose. We are here because a beautiful and extremely long period of evolution. We make our own purpose and the knowdge that this life is the only one we have pushes many of us to do our best and make the most of it. Purpose in life varies from one person to another because everyone of us chooses to make our lives what we want them to be. We each wish to leave a legacy and be a part of the story of the cosmos.

And another honest question- do those answers satisfy your questions? I don't mean this in a personal attack kind of way but as a personal matter sorry if it comes off otherwise.

 

[plumazul]

I have a sincere question for the atheists and/or agnostics. Among that community, what is the belief about life after death and the belief about the purpose of life?

"we are stardust, ..."

 

[deleted407021]

And another honest question- do those answers satisfy your questions? I don't mean this in a personal attack kind of way but as a personal matter sorry if it comes off otherwise.

No, you're fine.

What do you mean by "your questions"?

 

[ct303]

No, you're fine.

What do you mean by "your questions"?

Where we come from and where we are going

 

[Redpancreas]

Atheist.

I believe in nothing after death. Our stream of consciousness is only active when our circuitry is (I believe so). Sorry if that likens us to robots.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

Non believers like myself are a fairly diverse group, but the prevailing answer would be that we don't know. Most of us believe that there are two voids of non existence; the one before your conception and the one after your death. When you die, you're just not here anymore.

Life has no inherent purpose. We are here because a beautiful and extremely long period of evolution. We make our own purpose and the knowdge that this life is the only one we have pushes many of us to do our best and make the most of it. Purpose in life varies from one person to another because everyone of us chooses to make our lives what we want them to be. We each wish to leave a legacy and be a part of the story of the cosmos.

There are things that may happen in your life that will drastically change your perspective of purpose

 

[deleted407021]

Where we come from and where we are going

Humans come from a long and successful lineage of evolution. We made it here, literally, against all odds. Starting as a rodent like critter dodging the feet of dinosaurs to what we are today, along with all our brothers and sisters of mammalian kind.

Where we go is up to us. That is partly frightening, mostly wonderful. Each of us are a part (if we so choose) of this future and we must do with our short lives what we can in order to reach toward that destination, whatever that may be. And I think that vision can be shared by the religious and the secular alike, for when you die, there's no coming back, regardless of whether or not you end up in some afterlife or you simply cease to exist. What we do know is that the dead never help us, so whether or not we, as a whole, ever share the same beliefs, we may all work toward the improvement of our species with our individual, finite existences.

 

[deleted407021]

There are things that may happen in your life that will drastically change your perspective of purpose

Have you had such experiences? I mean, if you are willing to share.

 

[RJGOP]

Humans come from a long and successful lineage of evolution. We made it here, literally, against all odds. Starting as a rodent like critter dodging the feet of dinosaurs to what we are today, along with all our brothers and sisters of mammalian kind.

Where we go is up to us. That is partly frightening, mostly wonderful. Each of us are a part (if we so choose) of this future and we must do with our short lives what we can in order to reach toward that destination, whatever that may be. And I think that vision can be shared by the religious and the secular alike, for when you die, there's no coming back, regardless of whether or not you end up in some afterlife or you simply cease to exist. What we do know is that the dead never help us, so whether or not we, as a whole, ever share the same beliefs, we may all work toward the improvement of our species with our individual finite existences.

We can reconcile our religious beliefs with evolution as well. I always like to reconcile the Old Testimate with evolution. They can be reconciled and it is possible that the words in the Old Testimate are not literal, but subject to interpretation. I believe in G-d, and evolution. Whose to say G-d didn't allow evolution?

 

[deleted407021]

I'll add that an important part of one's purpose are the positive differences we make in the lives of others throughout our lifetimes.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

Have you had such experiences? I mean, if you are willing to share.

Deaths of people close to me
Watching people die in shock trauma
Seeing the births of my nieces and nephews
Almost getting shot in the stomach during a robbery
Fighting through cracked ribs in my last mixed martial arts fight

and many things I wish not to share

Like you said we each have our own sense of purpose, the life I have lived makes me think there is something more

 

[deleted407021]

We can reconcile our religious beliefs with evolution as well. I always like to reconcile the Old Testimate with evolution. They can be reconciled and it is possible that the words in the Old Testimate are not literal, but subject to interpretation. I believe in G-d, and evolution. Whose to say G-d didn't allow evolution?

I did this very thing for years. Eventually, I felt silly trying to merge faith and science. Inserting god into everything seemed inappropriate and insincere to me. The truth is, there is absolutely no known evidence for the existence of any kind of god, and after reaching that realization, I couldn't hold on to my beleif any longer. It was tough; a good long while suffering cognitive dissonance, but I feel like I've grown out of my faith to see the universe as it really is. A natural, beautiful and enormous place that is governed by things I can understand and see and measure and share with others. I don't need god in my life. I don't have to reconcile what I know and what I hope is true.

 

[deleted407021]

Deaths of people close to me
Watching people die in shock trauma
Seeing the births of my nieces and nephews
Almost getting shot in the stomach during a robbery
Fighting through cracked ribs in my last mixed martial arts fight

and many things I wish not to share

Like you said we each have our own sense of purpose, the life I have lived makes me think there is something more

If you don't change with experience and new knowledge, then you fail to grow.

 

[ct303]

So my question then is do those answers satisfy you? You are happy with those answers and their implications?

 

[RJGOP]

I did this very thing for years. Evrntually, I felt silly trying to merge faith and science. Inserting god into everything seemed inappropriate and insincere to me. The truth is, there is absolutely no known evidence for the existence of any kind of god, and after teaching that realization, I couldn't hold on to my beleif any longer. It was tough; a good long while suffering cognitive dissonance, but I feel like I've grown out of my faith to see the universe as it really is. A natural, beautiful and enormous place that is governed by things I can understand and see and measure and share with others. I don't need god in my life. I don't have to reconcile what I know and what I hope is true.

I think that is a fair perspective and I respect it. I think a lot of people would agree with you. Personally, I strongly believe in G-d, for several reasons. However, I haven't the comprehension of what G-d is. I just believe in G-d. That's just part of faith.

 

[deleted407021]

So my question then is do those answers satisfy you? You are happy with those answers and their implications?

Yes. I'm very happy to understand at least a small fraction of the vastness of the cosmos and to have a meaningful place in it.

As Carl Sagan said:
"If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers."

 

[ct303]

Yes. I'm very happy to understand at least a small fraction of the vastness of the cosmos and to have a meaningful place in it.

As Carl Sagan said:
"If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers."

Is it not possible for a religious person to hold the same beliefs? Particularly regarding the Carl Sagan quote?

 

[deleted407021]

Is it not possible for a religious person to hold the same beliefs? Particularly regarding the Carl Sagan quote?

It certainly is. Just as I stated in my previous post. We all share that responsibility, regardless of our religious beliefs, or lack thereof.

 

[LMBLBM]

I did this very thing for years. Eventually, I felt silly trying to merge faith and science. Inserting god into everything seemed inappropriate and insincere to me. The truth is, there is absolutely no known evidence for the existence of any kind of god, and after reaching that realization, I couldn't hold on to my beleif any longer. It was tough; a good long while suffering cognitive dissonance, but I feel like I've grown out of my faith to see the universe as it really is. A natural, beautiful and enormous place that is governed by things I can understand and see and measure and share with others. I don't need god in my life. I don't have to reconcile what I know and what I hope is true.

THIS

The Law of nature is such a gorgeous thing. I personally get offended by an idea that single entity created such a beautiful thing.

 

[RJGOP]

THIS

The Law of nature is such a gorgeous thing. I personally get offended by an idea that single entity created such a beautiful thing.

Why?

 

[deleted407021]

THIS

The Law of nature is such a gorgeous thing. I personally get offended by an idea that single entity created such a beautiful thing.

The idea that it's so old and everything came together over such an amazingly long period of time to produce life which flourished with all possibility of failure, is so much more a wonderful thing than the work of a deity, at least in my eyes.

 

[LMBLBM]

Why?

Things happen without any reasons. Humans have desperately try to assign reasons to natural phenomena, earthquake, storm, thunder, death and etc. Our true purpose of studying science is to not to find 'why' nature works in certain way. It is to find 'how' natural works. The ultimate answer for a series of question of why nature works in certain ways is God. Thus, as a person who doesn't consider 'why', I found it very offensive that God created everything.

 

[RJGOP]

Things happen without any reasons. Humans have desperately try to assign reasons to natural phenomena, earthquake, storm, thunder, death and etc. Our true purpose of studying science is to not to find 'why' nature works in certain way. It is to find 'how' natural works. The ultimate answer for a series of question of why nature works in certain ways is God. Thus, as a person who doesn't consider 'why', I found it very offensive that God created everything.

I think I understand what you're saying. Not 100% sure though. What I think is that G-d created everything, but then allowed it to evolve and change, not intervening and watching it play out. I think it is our job, as humans, to discover (to a certain extent) both how and why things occur.

 

[Alegrete]

I am a practicing LDS (aka Mormon), and have been all my life. I graduated as a Biochemist and absolutely love all science (except political science, which isn't science at all).

With more than 7 billion people on the planet we better get used to respecting each other's beliefs, because unless you live under a rock you will interact with people who believe in vastly different things than you. The key is to focus and embrace the good from each of these differing points of view rather than try to tear each other's beliefs apart.

Now, to those who wish to know why I choose to believe in a God even if the current trend is to be 'secular' (whatever that means) and non-religious, PM me and I will gladly respond.

 

[Jcthoma3]

Agnostic atheist, but only agnostic in the sense that I'm agnostic about the tooth fairy and Santa as well.

 

[Jcthoma3]

Orthodox Christian. The Bible is literal, though few accounts are symbolic.

Even the part about not eating shrimp, not wearing certain fabrics, women not speaking in churches, and being condemned to death for working on Sunday?

 

[looncat]

I have met practicing Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists that very much believe in evolution (and the way it is taught in science classes). I don't necessarily see religion and science as contradictory. Some interpret the creation story in the bible broadly and that evolution fits within it. I actually had this discussion with a few people. I don't remember how they reconciled the whole 6 day creation timeline though - I believe they interpreted a day to not be equivalent to a modern day - that part was unclear to me. Anyway, I thought it was interesting.

I just want to point out that Islam has nothing that disagrees with evolution and in fact the vast majority of muslims believe in it. The subset of muslims that disagree is a small minority and actually only came about in recent years, with most religious leaders and scholars maintaining that Islam supports a theistic evolution.
I just wanted to clear that up since I've heard a lot of misconceptions when it comes to this topic.

 

[didymus]

Even the part about not eating shrimp, not wearing certain fabrics, women not speaking in churches, and being condemned to death for working on Sunday?

Orthodox Christian as well, and yes, even those parts. It helps if you understand the history of the Jewish culture, and all the threats to their identity they faced. The laws were part of separating them from the pagans who continually threatened to destroy their culture, either by killing them all off, or by diluting their culture to the point of them no longer being distinct. Much of the cultural aspect of the Jewish law (those things that would not be considered universal morals) existed to set the Jewish community apart from Gentiles, and provided a displaced, enslaved, and threatened people with a sense of structure and identity.

These things are difficult for any of us to understand these days because none of us on here--or really any of us in the West, for that matter--have any concept of such a threat. Many of us don't even have a strong sense of cultural identity, so it can be difficult for us to see how critical to the Jews the Law was. Also, we believe that the 10 commandments were given by God, but not necessarily ALL 700+ other laws that the Jewish culture implemented to guide their society. God was always committed to the Jews, but they were not always committed to Him. If you actually read the Scriptures, you will find tons of examples where the things the Jews did stood directly in opposition to God.

Anyway, these things were explained earlier, I believe. You--or many atheists--may not be able to comprehend why the Jewish people had so many laws, of which so many are strange or absurd to you. Well, just because you don't get it, or don't agree, does not mean these things are, in fact, invalid. A good knowledge of history helps to frame these things, giving them appropriate context.

Orthodox Christians believe in one God, who is the god of all people, but who chose to reveal himself to a particular oppressed people group, knowing, in his wisdom, that through these people knowledge of him would go out to the whole world, providing all nations a chance to know him while retaining the freedom to reject him. When Jesus came on the scene, He took the revelation given to the Jews, and expanded it to include all people. These things are difficult to delineate on an internet thread--and the details are mostly a mystery, but that's the gist of it.

 

[Jcthoma3]

Other than from reading all of this in a text that in part predates antiquity, how do you know all this? And that's all well and good but you would hopefully agree that even though in some subjective way these things might have been acceptable to peoples of past times, they obviously have no place in a more enlightened, modern society.

 

[Jcthoma3]

I did this very thing for years. Eventually, I felt silly trying to merge faith and science. Inserting god into everything seemed inappropriate and insincere to me. The truth is, there is absolutely no known evidence for the existence of any kind of god, and after reaching that realization, I couldn't hold on to my beleif any longer. It was tough; a good long while suffering cognitive dissonance, but I feel like I've grown out of my faith to see the universe as it really is. A natural, beautiful and enormous place that is governed by things I can understand and see and measure and share with others. I don't need god in my life. I don't have to reconcile what I know and what I hope is true.

Ditto. Nailed it.

 

[Jcthoma3]

Believing in something bigger than yourself and having faith is not necessarily a bad thing. It is a good way to get through difficult or stressful times (better than alcohol, drugs, treating people poorly etc.)

The universe is a lot bigger than me. It doesn't take "faith" to know that though. The universe at is really is plenty enough to get me though the trenches and troughs. Collections of atoms contemplating the origins of atoms, dude. That's like the craziest thing ever.

 

[Jcthoma3]

I think that is a fair perspective and I respect it. I think a lot of people would agree with you. Personally, I strongly believe in G-d, for several reasons. In my religion, we are taught to fear G-d. Not to be scared of him, but to realize his awesomeness and omnipotence. I fear G-d and I love G-d, however, I haven't the comprehension of what G-d is. I just believe in G-d. That's just part of faith.

Were you raised in your faith?

 

[didymus]

Other than from reading all of this in a text that in part predates antiquity, how do you know all this?

Orthodox Christians--like myself--emphasize "mystery" in their practice of faith, rather than certainty. Aside from the fact that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of scholars of ancient history around the world, who have commented on these things extensively, I still wouldn't say I know these things to be true, but like many things in life, I trust them to be true. I'm also open to adapting my way of thinking based upon new information. This is what science is all about (which I love), and I see no reason why my belief in God can't be the same way. But, for the most part, new information about the natural world does not change what I believe about God, rather, it informs what I believe about God. It may seem like a subtle distinction, but it is quite important. For instance, for the longest time it was understood that Earth was flat. New information was gained, and it became known that Earth is round. I would expect had I been someone living at that time that such new information would not have changed what I believe about God, because I would still have believed (as I do now) that God created the world, whether it was flat or round, but it informed my understanding of how God created. The same goes for evolution, quantum physics, neuroscience, cosmology, and so on.

And that's all well and good but you would hopefully agree that even though in some subjective way these things might have been acceptable to peoples of past times, they obviously have no place in a more enlightened, modern society.

The bolded is hubris on your part. Can you think of a society that, at the time, didn't consider themselves enlightened and modern? The difference with us is that we are actually enlightened and modern, whereas societies of the past were not, right? Plus, I don't know of any Christians advocating for strict laws re: eating shrimp, not wearing certain fabrics...and being condemned to death for working on Sunday.

Listen, the value systems of cultures change and adapt over time. It has always been this way. It hasn't anything to do with a society becoming more enlightened and modern, but just has to do with the fact that things change--and these changes are not always for the better. In 100 years, I bet we won't even be able to recognize people--if any are left--living with the enlightened and modern values we have in 2014. But just because things will change does not mean the values we had today were of no use, or were primitive, or harmful, or whatever. They were probably quite useful for us at this time, but without a good understanding of the history and context, it will be impossible to understand why or how.

In the Christian faith, the understanding is that God is working closely with people, not absent and independently of them. Some of the things central to the Jewish culture 8,000 years ago may seem odd to us today, and don't really have a place in our current society (this is not to suggest we are better in any way than they were, we are just different) and that would make sense. It isn't that we believe God changes, but we understand that, given enough time, people do. There are certain foundational directives God has given to all people throughout all time to abide by--and even people who do not believe in a god know these things to be valid and consistent--and there are things that God gives to different people at different times, because maybe a particular context demands it. I don't think any of us should judge the past harshly, without first attempting to understand it.