So was it pointless of me to volunteer and do research?

[cryhavoc]

I have various family members who have vouched to go on road trips with me in the event I get interviews. I don't expect to get an interview to every place I apply to.

And I'm sorry if I seem like I have a bad attitude. I've been dealing with a medical issue of my own this last year and recovering still from it on top of this crazy schedule.

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[MrLogan13]

Do you think you are the only pre-med that has to do those things? Many people do it everyday and are far more successful than you seem to be. And probably have better attitudes.

Sent from my KFOT using Tapatalk 2

Yup. I went from working full-time to part-time when I decided to go back to school, and was still logging ~25 hours per week on average. In addition to EC's like volunteering. And still having an active social life. It's all about time management.

 

[MrLogan13]

I have various family members who have vouched to go on road trips with me in the event I get interviews. I don't expect to get an interview to every place I apply to.

Of course you won't get II's from every school you apply to. Even if you're making road trips to every school you interview at, that could still be a significant cost in terms of gas and wear and tear on the car. It will be especially costly in terms of time (which no one has enough of). That's beside the point. You don't want to be caught off guard and not have funds available, or not be able to apply as broadly as possible because of a lack of funds. If you feel you are ready to apply this June, more power to you.

 

[cryhavoc]

The road trips are how they are helping out, they plan to cover gas. I'm lucky in that regard. Besides, the majority of the schools I'm applying to are only one to two states away. Or in my home state. I'm lucky to live in an area surrounded by numerous medical schools.

 

[rachel993]

Ugh. These kinds of posts are extremely frustrating to me. Why would it be pointless to volunteer and do research, regardless of your MCAT score? Not saying that "box-checking" isn't a thing in the pre-med community, but if you're actually going to pity yourself for having "done all that extra stuff for nothing," maybe you should rethink your career plans.

 

[Goro]

The medical schools aren't going anywhere.

Apply with the best possible app, even if it means skipping an app cycle. Patience is a virtue, the need for instant gratification is not.

I'm already taking a year off, I'm applying at the end of my senior year (I graduate in a few months and start working in May).

Are you guys sure though? Part of the reason I'm taking this gap year is so I could apply on the first day to be considered "early". I heard medical schools throw out apps if they don't have a high MCAT. Will they throw it out in the month or two it takes to send the updated score?

You are expectedf to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time...ie, be good at time mgt. this is a skill you will have to master to survive medical school, even more so for residency.

Well it is sort of hard to study for the MCAT when you are working a part-time job, taking 15 credits, working at a lab, attending clubs, and volunteering at three different places. I can't imagine studying a whole year, I don't want to get a perfect score. Two months should be way more than enough times if my only distraction is a part-time job.

It depends upon what their COMLEX and USMLE scores are. No residency in the world is "handed" to an MD...they are earned.
Is there really a difference between a top DO and a medium DO? Both get overruled for residencies that are handed to the bottom MD's, aren't they?

 

[JimmyB123]

You need a 33+ on your retake to offset the 3.45GPA for MD

 

[mmmcdowe]

If you only did it for your resume and have no interest in the activities then yes it pretty much was pointless.

 

[cryhavoc]

You need a 33+ on your retake to offset the 3.45GPA for MD

What is that in new MCAT-speak? The old test is gone.

 

[JimmyB123]

What is that in new MCAT-speak? The old test is gone.

90+ percentile

 

[MrTaco92]

There are still plenty of others out there who wish they had your numbers so they could apply to DO schools. Do you or will you soon have anything to show for your research experience? Someone correct me if I'm wrong (I'm actually kinda curious about this) but I'm pretty sure you can still use publications from undergrad to beef up your CV for residency.

 

[cryhavoc]

There are still plenty of others out there who wish they had your numbers so they could apply to DO schools. Do you or will you soon have anything to show for your research experience? Someone correct me if I'm wrong (I'm actually kinda curious about this) but I'm pretty sure you can still use publications from undergrad to beef up your CV for residency.

I plan to work at the lab during the beginning of my gap year. It is highly likely I'll get something published. Not that I expect it to help offset my bad MCAT score or anything, I'm just heavily involved in a few long-term projects.

90+ percentile

Naturally . . .

 

[amad01]

I only have enough money to apply and barely enough at that. I had one shot at the MCAT. My parents make too much to qualify for reduced pricing.

Plus I studied for the old one, not the new one.

I would love to retake the MCAT if I could afford it.

Hit up financial aid office and get them loans like the rest of us

 

[cryhavoc]

One question though, now I know the odds are not in my favor, but there are a few schools that might, maybe, I have a shot at. I hear these stories from time to time.

Is it possible, as my school has a committee, offers statistics, etc. that my adviser flat out said I had no chance so I would only apply DO and look good statistically for them for getting in?

 

[Stagg737]

Well, if it is true DO's can practice in the fields I'm interested in, I'm taking 2 gap years instead of one because of my pride. I'm spending an entire year of my life on initials. In that context, it looks dumb. Sure, maybe a part of me thinks MD's are looked at better. I'd probably be a better physician if I worried less about my pride and more about my patients.

Don't take it personally, but this is the only thing you've said on here that gives me the impression you're mature enough to handle med school. You said you spent 1-2 weeks really studying for the MCAT. If that's true, then I'd say your score reflects that pretty accurately. You also said you didn't have time to do more because you were busy with 15 credits of classes, plus 3 volunteering positions, plus clubs, plus whatever else. That, along with a slew of other things you've said, tells me you don't have your priorities straight.

If you can't handle the idea of committing to an extra year to make yourself the best applicant possible, what makes you think you'll be able to commit to the rigors of med school? If you can't figure out what activities matter and manage them properly, why will it be any different when it comes time to take the boards?

I'm not saying any of this to attack you. I'm saying it because I was pretty similar when I applied the first time as a senior. I had a mediocre application and got a ton of rejections. Even though I could potentially be an M4 right now, there's no way I was mature enough to succeed or possibly even to know I would pass. In retrospect, I'm glad I wasn't accepted then because I know I will have no problems succeeding now.

 

[Captain Toad]

I only have enough money to apply and barely enough at that. I had one shot at the MCAT. My parents make too much to qualify for reduced pricing.

Plus I studied for the old one, not the new one.

I would love to retake the MCAT if I could afford it.

Open credit cards. Take out loans. Borrow from people. Invest in yourself.

If $300 is too much for you right now, what will happen when you are $300,000 in the hole with interest?

And with research, most schools just care if you have a pub or ran your own experiment. Do you have one?

 

[Captain Toad]

Well, it should be highly motivating.

Do or die.

If I really want to be an MD, I'll kill this final attempt at taking an MCAT in July. If I get a mediocre score, I'll get over myself, and commit fully to becoming a DO.

And I will apply to some lower-ranked DO schools too, I'm not foolish enough to only apply to top schools. I want a safety net.

I work best under pressure.

Also this is a bad idea. People crack under pressure, and there is a ton of pressure in med school.

You need healthy coping mechanisms. Others, feel free to chime in on this.

 

[cryhavoc]

I've decided. I'm just going to apply to 1-2 home state MD schools, 1-3 newer MD schools that take out of state apps, 5-6 nice DO schools, 4-5 safety DO schools, and enjoy my one gap year.

 

[Captain Toad]

Good luck. If I were you, I would take at least a 1 day break from all of this, before I go and make any life changing or expensive decisions. What state do you live in?

 

[cryhavoc]

I'll take a few months to think it over, nothing opens until May.

 

[Goro]

There are only a handful of MD schools for which your 27 is in striking distance for. Your state school would another for the list.

One question though, now I know the odds are not in my favor, but there are a few schools that might, maybe, I have a shot at. I hear these stories from time to time.

Is it possible, as my school has a committee, offers statistics, etc. that my adviser flat out said I had no chance so I would only apply DO and look good statistically for them for getting in?

 

[ridethecliche]

Far more expensive and time consuming to have to reapply...

 

[IlDestriero]

See, I hear of people that have this happen. But my adviser acts like it is impossible.

My advisor told my friend and I to apply to dental school. He got into a top 5 school and I got a scholarship at a top 20 school. Of course, in her defense, she didn't have our MCAT scores, which were solid.
You may get in with that score or you may not. If your sgpa was the same as your total, you'd be in a different position. You really need the MCAT to erase any doubts about your ability to succeed.
Apply DO or wait and retake the MCAT and see what happens with the new score.
As was pointed out above, there's nothing wrong with taking a gap year(s) or retaking the exam. It shows commitment. If you get a job it also shows that you've explored other career opportunities as well and still desire a career in medicine.

 

[cryhavoc]

I know you guys think the smarter option is too take a year to study but hear me out. Before my first (and last) taking of the old MCAT, I was scoring 29-30 (one time 31) on practice tests. I was going to cancel if it weren't for that. I kept getting 12's on verbal reasoning, but got a 10 on the real thing.

Most people have trouble with verbal, but I was fine. They added a psychology section and I've taken a lot, a lot of psychology and sociology courses, and got A's in every single one.

So I might have half of the test covered. I'm not very good at ochem, and there was a lot of it on on my MCAT. I'm currently in a Biochem class so after I take that final in a few months, I'll know it fairly well and it will be fresh. I'm good at biological science.

So that leaves the physical section. If I can get my physics/chemistry up, I think I have a shot at the new test equivalent of a 30+. Maybe not 90th percentile but a heck of a lot better than where I am sitting now.

There are not many practice tests. I'll have two months (on top of whatever studying I start now) to clean up my physical science act, polish my psych/verbal, and retain/work on my bio stuff.

So I apply DO early as possible, send old score right away. I take the new MCAT in July. In August, I get it back. If I did great, I'm going to apply to a couple of low tier MD schools. If I did about the same, I stick with where I am at. Enjoy my gap year. If I get into a DO, and later get into an MD, it will suck to lose my deposit but I will handle it as I've been working for several months at that point. If I don't get in, I'll be glad of what I did accomplish and go the DO route. I didn't realize before that internal medicine was possible for a DO.

I might have found a way to pay for this new MCAT so that is probably no longer a concern.

I really think this plan might work, as long as waiting to apply to MD schools until August is still considered early. I don't think someone of my standing should be applying late. And I don't think my volunteering was "useless", I was being over-dramatic yesterday.

 

[candbgirl]

You should submit your AMCAS primary in June too. Submit it to one school. This way you'll get verified. Then when your MCAT score comes you can add schools if you want. If you wait to submit the primary 'til sometime in August by the time you get verified it will be September and that's late. Your secondaries won't be submitted until late September etc etc etc. Interviews have started and the first acceptances go out mid October.

 

[cryhavoc]

You should submit your AMCAS primary in June too. Submit it to one school. This way you'll get verified. Then when your MCAT score comes you can add schools if you want. If you wait to submit the primary 'til sometime in August by the time you get verified it will be September and that's late. Your secondaries won't be submitted until late September etc etc etc. Interviews have started and the first acceptances go out mid October.

Good idea. now what exactly is the date that makes the distinction between early and late for most places?

 

[MrLogan13]

Yeah, make sure you submit in June since verification can take ~3 weeks. Otherwise, if you submit in August, you won't be verified until September. That's late, man.

 

[ridethecliche]

No actually we don't care what you do. People here have given you solid advice and if you want to play the lottery instead of giving yourself the best chance then have at it.

Your application has no bearing on our lives.

 

[Planes2Doc]

So you're admitting you volunteered solely for the purpose of your application, and that it was a waste of time? ADCOMs don't want this. They want altruistic people.

Plus you still need ECs for DO schools.

 

[wegotthis14]

I know you guys think the smarter option is too take a year to study but hear me out. Before my first (and last) taking of the old MCAT, I was scoring 29-30 (one time 31) on practice tests. I was going to cancel if it weren't for that. I kept getting 12's on verbal reasoning, but got a 10 on the real thing.

Most people have trouble with verbal, but I was fine. They added a psychology section and I've taken a lot, a lot of psychology and sociology courses, and got A's in every single one.

So I might have half of the test covered. I'm not very good at ochem, and there was a lot of it on on my MCAT. I'm currently in a Biochem class so after I take that final in a few months, I'll know it fairly well and it will be fresh. I'm good at biological science.

So that leaves the physical section. If I can get my physics/chemistry up, I think I have a shot at the new test equivalent of a 30+. Maybe not 90th percentile but a heck of a lot better than where I am sitting now.

There are not many practice tests. I'll have two months (on top of whatever studying I start now) to clean up my physical science act, polish my psych/verbal, and retain/work on my bio stuff.

So I apply DO early as possible, send old score right away. I take the new MCAT in July. In August, I get it back. If I did great, I'm going to apply to a couple of low tier MD schools. If I did about the same, I stick with where I am at. Enjoy my gap year. If I get into a DO, and later get into an MD, it will suck to lose my deposit but I will handle it as I've been working for several months at that point. If I don't get in, I'll be glad of what I did accomplish and go the DO route. I didn't realize before that internal medicine was possible for a DO.

I might have found a way to pay for this new MCAT so that is probably no longer a concern.

I really think this plan might work, as long as waiting to apply to MD schools until August is still considered early. I don't think someone of my standing should be applying late. And I don't think my volunteering was "useless", I was being over-dramatic yesterday.

While you shouldn't have said you considered the volunteering a potential waste of time, I understand that you are probably frustrated and I imagine you gained something from it besides an application booster.

That being said, I like your plan. If you start studying for the new MCAT now, you should have plenty of time to prepare for it and take it in July. Since you were scoring well on your practice scores, I assume you already have a decent understanding of most of the material.
Also, you seem to understand that if, for some reason, you do not perform as expected, you are okay with the DO route. I would advise you to take time to truly consider if being a DO would make you happy. By attending a DO school, you should have no issue matching into an IM residency. Still, you don't want to end up with hurt pride, unhappy being at a medical school you don't want to attend.

 

[mehc012]

Also this is a bad idea. People crack under pressure, and there is a ton of pressure in med school.

You need healthy coping mechanisms. Others, feel free to chime in on this.

Meh, I tend to disagree. I also feel that I work best under pressure. You say that 'people crack under pressure', but that's not necessarily a general statement. I tend to crack more easily when the pressure is low, and use high-stress situations to get myself pulled together. I don't think I would have done as well on the MCAT were I not working 48hr weeks while studying for it, and I would have found the situation miserable rather than fun if I just had months of free time + test. I'm not sure it's unhealthy to prefer to be busy.

 

[ridethecliche]

“I’ll tell you one thing: don’t ever give anybody your best advice, because they’re not going to follow it.”
— Jack Nicholson

 

[MrLogan13]

“I’ll tell you one thing: don’t ever give anybody your best advice, because they’re not going to follow it.”
— Jack Nicholson

So true.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

I call bullsh** on anyone who claims to "work best under pressure." You can learn to perform adequately under pressure, but I find it hard to believe that anyone works "best" under a lot of stress and pressure. Stress and pressure are bad. They don't help you perform better; they are just added obstacles you have to deal with to get the task done.

 

[WingedOx]

Honestly I would recommend a second gap year for the OP, based on his past posts. He needs to seriously take some time to examine why he is going into medical school and what this involves, but also to get some experiences that don't have anything to do with being an MD/DO. If I had an applicant come across my desk who couldn't describe non-CV-related social activities, his app would find its way into the reject pile pretty damn quickly.

I'm in my early 30s now. I'm still not done with training. When I see people talk about sacrificing social lives for their career advancement, it's a massive red flag.

edit: While I think he isn't ready for med school, I think people are being a bit harsh on him.

 

[mehc012]

I call bullsh** on anyone who claims to "work best under pressure." You can learn to perform adequately under pressure, but I find it hard to believe that anyone works "best" under a lot of stress and pressure. Stress and pressure are bad. They don't help you perform better; they are just added obstacles you have to deal with to get the task done.

Call bull**** all you want. I am happiest when my schedule is crammed and I have to be on my toes to pull everything off.
When I was depressed, it was periods of academic pressure like finals and midterms which would pull me back to reality and clear my head.
When there is a time crunch I focus and get in the zone. It takes me less time to finish an assignment, and the quality of my work is the same. An absolute time crunch is unnecessarily risky though, because if something comes up there's no wiggle room - but I still work more efficiently under those conditions, even if I now mostly choose to avoid them due to risk and the joys of being fully rested.

I don't find pressure to be an obstacle most of the time. It keeps me sane and happy. It provides structure.

 

[cryhavoc]

Call bull**** all you want. I am happiest when my schedule is crammed and I have to be on my toes to pull everything off.
When I was depressed, it was periods of academic pressure like finals and midterms which would pull me back to reality and clear my head.
When there is a time crunch I focus and get in the zone. It takes me less time to finish an assignment, and the quality of my work is the same. An absolute time crunch is unnecessarily risky though, because if something comes up there's no wiggle room - but I still work more efficiently under those conditions, even if I now mostly choose to avoid them.

I don't find pressure to be an obstacle most of the time. It keeps me sane and happy. It provides structure.

We are very much alike. Tell me something is due tomorrow and it'll be done by tomorrow, and I'll get an A. Tell me it is due a week from now and I'll spend a lot of extra time on it, but receive the exact same grade. I thrive under pressure, I have never shut down like some people I know.

Besides, this test is brand new. I'll probably outperform a lot of people by taking it early because I learn so fast. Those people who will meticulously study every single day for a year while I'm enjoying my life are going to score higher. Where give me a few months, and them a few months, and guess who comes out on top?

And you can only insult me one of two ways. You can say, "If you can't study for a year straight, how can you handle medical school?" OR you can say, "If you can't enjoy life during your gap year, I'd throw your application in the trash for not having interests outside of medicine." I'm probably going to make someone dislike me either way so I'd rather go with studying from now to July than a whole year. The whole year is overkill.

 

[Blue Blood]

We are very much alike. Tell me something is due tomorrow and it'll be done by tomorrow, and I'll get an A. Tell me it is due a week from now and I'll spend a lot of extra time on it, but receive the exact same grade. I thrive under pressure, I have never shut down like some people I know.

So how did that pressure work out the first time you took the mcat?

 

[cryhavoc]

So how did that pressure work out the first time you took the mcat?

Pretty darn well for two weeks. Maybe I didn't explain myself clearly earlier but I took practice tests and was doing well. I thought it would be easier to take the old one when it was still around, especially since I was doing well on paper. The two weeks wasn't part of some plan, if my practice tests were poor I would have not taken it and canceled and waited for the new one.

Stretch what I can do in two weeks into the 4 whole months before the July MCAT, and I'm probably going to be just as well off as most people who take twice that time to study. I can keep 6-12 hour study days going for a few months. I'm sure people who study an entire year don't practice that long everyday, do they?

Besides other candidates take this new MCAT with hardly any old practice tests, materials, classes, materials, etc. they are going to score on what they know, and not what materials they can buy. I might actually have a chance of outscoring them earlier in the game than later when all the scores get inflated from throwing money at prep materials and examining older exams.

 

[Goro]

I have seen medical school break healthy students.

When you have people who have done well academically all their lives suddenly flounder, despite their best efforts, it can be to them quite soul destroying.

Meh, I tend to disagree. I also feel that I work best under pressure. You say that 'people crack under pressure', but that's not necessarily a general statement. I tend to crack more easily when the pressure is low, and use high-stress situations to get myself pulled together. I don't think I would have done as well on the MCAT were I not working 48hr weeks while studying for it, and I would have found the situation miserable rather than fun if I just had months of free time + test. I'm not sure it's unhealthy to prefer to be busy.

 

[cryhavoc]

From what I understand, you're expected to learn massive amounts of information in very little time in medical school. I would think the advantage would go to those who can handle the pressure and learn quickly. Roll with the punches. Does taking an entire year to relearn things you should already have mastered by taking undergrad classes really show how well you can perform? Because you won't have nearly as much time as you are used to in medical school to have a perfect, structured study schedule with no stress because you have "plenty of time". Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[mehc012]

I have seen medical school break healthy students.

When you have people who have done well academically all their lives suddenly flounder, despite their best efforts, it can be to them quite soul destroying.

Fortunately, I've already broken and recovered academically (and various other ways). I'm not proud of having messed up in the past, but I wouldn't undo it if I could, because now I know how to roll when I fall, and how to get back on my feet.

I'm not saying that nobody cracks under pressure. I'm just saying that, just as some people can't stand the cold and others love it, some people frazzle under pressure and others wake up. Me? I'm a creature of momentum. When my schedule is empty and I have too much free time, I'm unproductive, lazy, and unhappy. When time is valuable because I have so little of it free, I make the most of it and am almost constantly productive and happy, even outside of my busy schedule. Want my room to be clean? Either make me so busy I barely have time to do it, or come over and have a few beers with me (I clean when I drink!)

 

[ridethecliche]

So how did that pressure work out the first time you took the mcat?

AHahhahhaha. This.

Pretty darn well for two weeks. Maybe I didn't explain myself clearly earlier but I took practice tests and was doing well. I thought it would be easier to take the old one when it was still around, especially since I was doing well on paper. The two weeks wasn't part of some plan, if my practice tests were poor I would have not taken it and canceled and waited for the new one.

Stretch what I can do in two weeks into the 4 whole months before the July MCAT, and I'm probably going to be just as well off as most people who take twice that time to study. I can keep 6-12 hour study days going for a few months. I'm sure people who study an entire year don't practice that long everyday, do they?

Besides other candidates take this new MCAT with hardly any old practice tests, materials, classes, materials, etc. they are going to score on what they know, and not what materials they can buy. I might actually have a chance of outscoring them earlier in the game than later when all the scores get inflated from throwing money at prep materials and examining older exams.

So you got a 27 when it counted, aka when the pressure was on and you're citing that you did 'well' in practice? Who cares about practice?

Are you blaming your low score on other people having practice material? Aka, you're saying you didn't do well because other people actually prepared?

Shocker.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

AHahhahhaha. This.



So you got a 27 when it counted, aka when the pressure was on and you're citing that you did 'well' in practice? Who cares about practice?

Are you blaming your low score on other people having practice material? Aka, you're saying you didn't do well because other people actually prepared?

Shocker.

Yup, totally agree with you there. OP, come back and get a 36+ equivalent on the new exam and then talk about how well you do under pressure.

 

[cryhavoc]

Thanks for the advice everyone. It was nice bouncing ideas and helped me form a game plan that was in-between taking two gap years and only applying to DO schools.

 

[WingedOx]

From what I understand, you're expected to learn massive amounts of information in very little time in medical school. I would think the advantage would go to those who can handle the pressure and learn quickly. Roll with the punches. Does taking an entire year to relearn things you should already have mastered by taking undergrad classes really show how well you can perform? Because you won't have nearly as much time as you are used to in medical school to have a perfect, structured study schedule with no stress because you have "plenty of time". Correct me if I'm wrong.

The problem: While you may be more productive and whatnot while under pressure, the amount of material in medical school from day one is constant at a level for which people would cram and pull all-nighters in undergrad. You can only sustain that for so long before you hit a wall. You will have to adapt and roll with the punches, but it's not the studying that needs to be adapted (that's the easy part), it's the lifestyle outside of work that takes the greatest effort to maintain. Fail to keep your out of school life in order and your academic life will (to paraphrase Zapp Brannigan) fall like dominoes into a house of cards...checkmate.

to @cryhavoc and @mehc012, when people who have gone thru the process come onto these boards to give advice, it's not because we're trolling or coming to you as some Dr. Perfect MD who did everything right. Many of us made similar mistakes and trust us, you DON'T want to have to go through what we did. When I suggested time off because you're not yet* ready for med school, it's not to knock you personally. It's because based on your posts, your personal life isn't in order to the point where you won't have problems. I said this in a previous thread, but you're looking for your future MD to give you fulfillment. No career, even as noble as medicine, can do that for you.

*"yet" of course does not imply a permanent state.

 

[cryhavoc]

Some people have to make their own mistakes to learn. I'm sure I'll learn it the same way you did by experiencing it first-hand.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

Some people have to make their own mistakes to learn. I'm sure I'll learn it the same way you did by experiencing it first-hand.

Now why the hell would you WANT to make the same mistakes someone else did when you can easily learn from those mistakes by hearing about them from the people who came before you? This just reeks of immaturity on so many levels.

 

[cryhavoc]

That's how you get experience.

I've went through a lot more nonsense than most people have to go through to get where I am and I wouldn't trade all those bad times for the world. It makes you a stronger person.

You come off as someone who does everything so perfectly because you're afraid to fail. Eventually you will and not having any experience in the matter will probably cause you to crash and burn, and not rebound. But if avoiding that makes you feel smarter and superior to me, go on ahead thinking it, no skin off my teeth. Making mildly condescending remarks on the internet to me for two days is evidence of your priorities in life right now and brings your people skills into question.

 

[MrLogan13]

Some people have to make their own mistakes to learn. I'm sure I'll learn it the same way you did by experiencing it first-hand.

You should learn from other people's mistakes and experiences, not try to make your own mistakes when they can be avoided. That's backwards thinking.