Southern California Kaiser Anesthesiology

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Twiggidy said:
What actually are you in to? I"m just genuinely curious at this point
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Beaches. Laying around on the beach, eating, and drinking some mixed drinks. Getting in the warm water for a bit. Traveling. Wineries. When I am home, I don't really do much. I am a bit of a homebody. Too lazy to go places besides the Home Depot to get plants/veggies/stuff to fix house and to Cheddars or its equivalent to eat. I am getting bored quite frankly. But rather watch TV than do that other stuff you mentioned.
 
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chocomorsel said:
Yea, we already know. LOL. You always up here talking about museums in regards to most city talk. I personally fall asleep at museums. Can master the art of falling asleep standing after like the 10th exhibit.
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I can fall asleep in 5min at any kids movie.
 
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nimbus said:
I live in a top 10 metro area and even that doesn’t offer enough culture for me sometimes. So pre-COVID, I found myself in LA all the time. For example I was able to catch the entire Philip Glass trilogy, Einstein on the Beach, Akhnaten, and Satyagraha at the LA Opera. And Philip glass himself did Q&A before the shows. I’m an unrepentant city boy although the mountains have their appeal too.
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You should go to Europe or Asia. American city life is a joke compared to theirs.
 
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chocomorsel said:
Beaches. Laying around on the beach, eating, and drinking some mixed drinks. Getting in the warm water for a bit. Traveling. Wineries. When I am home, I don't really do much. I am a bit of a homebody. Too lazy to go places besides the Home Depot to get plants/veggies/stuff to fix house and to Cheddars or its equivalent to eat. I am getting bored quite frankly. But rather watch TV than do that other stuff you mentioned.
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I think you’re me
 
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soccerboy2288 said:
You can make MUCH more than 33k/yr if you are there for a long time..
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Don’t know scal but friends that work for Kaisers in some other regions and this is right. Some who work 25+ years collecting 250k /yr pension for rest of their lives upon retirement! Better than the VA.
 
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anbuitachi said:
i dont know how that is sustainable in the long run
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There's so much waste and inefficiency in the US healthcare industry, that insurance companies and hospital conglomerates have been able to print money. In Kaiser Permanente, they own both of those money-printing licenses.

However, should Medicare For All pass, there will be significant belt tightening. I am sure the tenured Permanente physicians are going to be okay, but I would not start a career with Kaiser right now depending on my pension's solvency. Sure, it's probably a safe bet (after all, you are betting on governmental inaction, which is a pretty safe bet). On the other hand, the speed with which gay marriage and marijuana have been legalized makes me realize that this nation's citizens are increasingly dissatisfied with the status quo.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet that healthcare reform would happen long before we bring our military spending inline with our international peers. But how long can the United States continue to compete with those two millstones weighing us down? The world's getting flatter and more competitive. Eventually, the pro-business Republicans are going to realize what a disadvantage our bloated healthcare system is to corporate America, and not even the health insurance, hospital, and pharmaceutical lobbies will be able to continue the grift.
 
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anbuitachi said:
i dont know how that is sustainable in the long run
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Oh it’s definitely not sustainable. And if you joined Kaiser now I certainly wouldn’t bet on it being there 25+ years later. It’s just one more “golden parachute” that the end-career (and probably mid career who will be grandfathered) physicians got on the way to inevitable single-payer.

No physician is going to make more than a solid middle-class income in a couple decades. Docs can still make it into the 1% now, but it’s becoming less and less likely. I’m telling my kids to go into finance (or be entrepreneurial).
 
doctalaughs said:
Oh it’s definitely not sustainable. And if you joined Kaiser now I certainly wouldn’t bet on it being there 25+ years later. It’s just one more “golden parachute” that the end-career (and probably mid career who will be grandfathered) physicians got on the way to inevitable single-payer.

No physician is going to make more than a solid middle-class income in a couple decades. Docs can still make it into the 1% now, but it’s becoming less and less likely. I’m telling my kids to go into finance (or be entrepreneurial).
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They say it’s the most well funded pension in California also Kaiser is the 2nd or 3rd biggest owner of land in California 🤷‍♂️
 
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anbuitachi said:
wait so to summarize this long thread... in socal first year base like 340... with potential to make more... and jump to 500 after making partner in year 4..?
Pension vests in 10 years, and you get like 33k per year for ever?
Any other retirement benefits like 403 match or whatever?
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You got it right except the pension. I think you got $33k from my write up of the benefits. I was merely trying to place a quantitative dollar value to the pension/defined benefit plan as a component of ones yearly salary. If you compare the value of our pension to an annuity, I’d roughly estimate the pension is worth maybe $33k for each year you work, assuming you work for a full 30 years and retire at 65ish. That doesn’t mean you get $33k a year after 10 years.

Your pension after working 30 years is equal to half of your base salary. So if in 2050, my base salary is $400k let’s say, after I retire, they pay me $200k a year from 65 till I die. You can buy an annuity today that’ll do the same thing probably for around $1,000,000.
 
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GaseousClay said:
They say it’s the most well funded pension in California also Kaiser is the 2nd or 3rd biggest owner of land in California 🤷‍♂️
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In 2015, Kaiser pension was less than 70% funded. S&P500 has doubled since then.
 
First time here in a month and inbox filled with PMs. Certainly angry PM from posters on this thread defending their group (you know who you are)

Everyone loves their job or hates their job - when trying to objectively describe their job to them, they will either have a confirmation bias to agree or find 1 wrong detail and dismiss everything as false.

Take away from this discussion what you will, I gain nothing other than describing my experiences interviewing in So Cal. A lot of you seem to take this personally and attempt to use something as I said as a personal dig rather than just processing the information (ex: perhaps he didn't get offers so he's bitter, perhaps he's not the top **** he thinks he is etc...). The info about those OC and SD groups is an aggregate of myself and colleagues experiences. For the record, I got offers from each that I completed the interview with (walked away from Allied long before formal interview).

Ended up taking a word of mouth out of state job. Most importantly, it's where significant other also got a great offer so made the most sense for us. Going to provide rough info to prevent IDing. $400-500 associate salary, $650ish partner depending on year, 2 years to partner, 2-3 calls a month w/ post call off, 8-12 wks vacation, 1:2 - 1:4 supervision/some own cases, broad case mix with everything except sick pedi, standard benefit package w/ maxed out match.

Money is not everything, lifestyle is not everything, location is not everything. But rank which matters more and choose based on that. Know that with So Cal location, you give up a lot and are not getting a good "deal" by any means due to the HCOL, real estate prices and excess supply of providers in this desirable location. If you can't leave family and need to be in CA, I feel you.

Learn to invest, learn why money early on is better than later on, understand that you are your most valuable asset. Who knows what direction the field goes, but with these numbers that I'm at, I'd feel much more comfortable after 5 years if a major shift in medicine were to occur. I want to capitalize on the good lifestyle and compensation in anesthesia while it's still there
 
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GaseousClay said:
They say it’s the most well funded pension in California also Kaiser is the 2nd or 3rd biggest owner of land in California 🤷‍♂️
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How does Kaiser Permanente’s land ownership help the doctors? I thought Kaiser Permanente, TPMG, and SCPMG are separate entities. Would Kaiser somehow shift funds into SCPMG pensions?
 
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throwawaythesevo said:
First time here in a month and inbox filled with PMs. Certainly angry PM from posters on this thread defending their group (you know who you are)

Everyone loves their job or hates their job - when trying to objectively describe their job to them, they will either have a confirmation bias to agree or find 1 wrong detail and dismiss everything as false.

Take away from this discussion what you will, I gain nothing other than describing my experiences interviewing in So Cal. A lot of you seem to take this personally and attempt to use something as I said as a personal dig rather than just processing the information (ex: perhaps he didn't get offers so he's bitter, perhaps he's not the top **** he thinks he is etc...). The info about those OC and SD groups is an aggregate of myself and colleagues experiences. For the record, I got offers from each that I completed the interview with (walked away from Allied long before formal interview).

Ended up taking a word of mouth out of state job. Most importantly, it's where significant other also got a great offer so made the most sense for us. Going to provide rough info to prevent IDing. $400-500 associate salary, $650ish partner depending on year, 2 years to partner, 2-3 calls a month w/ post call off, 8-12 wks vacation, 1:2 - 1:4 supervision/some own cases, broad case mix with everything except sick pedi, standard benefit package w/ maxed out match.

Money is not everything, lifestyle is not everything, location is not everything. But rank which matters more and choose based on that. Know that with So Cal location, you give up a lot and are not getting a good "deal" by any means due to the HCOL, real estate prices and excess supply of providers in this desirable location. If you can't leave family and need to be in CA, I feel you.

Learn to invest, learn why money early on is better than later on, understand that you are your most valuable asset. Who knows what direction the field goes, but with these numbers that I'm at, I'd feel much more comfortable after 5 years if a major shift in medicine were to occur. I want to capitalize on the good lifestyle and compensation in anesthesia while it's still there
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good for you if your spouse is ok with this compromise. Seems like your spouse wanted to be in socal more than you did.
 
nimbus said:
How does Kaiser Permanente’s land ownership help the doctors? I thought Kaiser Permanente, TPMG, and SCPMG are separate entities. Would Kaiser somehow shift funds into SCPMG pensions?
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Good question but it’s always mentioned when discussing how good KP is doing financially. 🤷‍♂️
 
anyone know what a full time w2 base salary offer would be for someone 2-3 years post residency?
 
GaseousClay said:
Good question but it’s always mentioned when discussing how good KP is doing financially. 🤷‍♂️
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Apparently doing quite well.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

Kaiser's net income hits $2B in Q1

Oakland, Calif. -based Kaiser Permanente recorded a net income of $2 billion in the first quarter of 2021, up from a net loss of $1. 1 billion recorded in the same quarter last year, according to financial data released May 7.
www.beckershospitalreview.com www.beckershospitalreview.com
 
nimbus said:
Apparently doing quite well.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

Kaiser's net income hits $2B in Q1

Oakland, Calif. -based Kaiser Permanente recorded a net income of $2 billion in the first quarter of 2021, up from a net loss of $1. 1 billion recorded in the same quarter last year, according to financial data released May 7.
www.beckershospitalreview.com www.beckershospitalreview.com
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Easy to do when you shut down elective cases for months after other places restarted their operating rooms at full capacity and you collect your own premiums.
 
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GassYous said:
Easy to do when you shut down elective cases for months after other places restarted their operating rooms at full capacity and you collect your own premiums.
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don't forget the CARES act payments. Health care systems that have their own insurance product made out like bandits.
 
GassYous said:
Easy to do when you shut down elective cases for months after other places restarted their operating rooms at full capacity and you collect your own premiums.
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why did KP lose 1.1b 1st Q last year? OR started to shut down in mid March and I assume office visits were down before that.
 
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nimbus said:
Apparently doing quite well.

www.beckershospitalreview.com

Kaiser's net income hits $2B in Q1

Oakland, Calif. -based Kaiser Permanente recorded a net income of $2 billion in the first quarter of 2021, up from a net loss of $1. 1 billion recorded in the same quarter last year, according to financial data released May 7.
www.beckershospitalreview.com www.beckershospitalreview.com
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That article doesn’t mention which Kaiser entity it’s referencing.

Kaiser Permanente is made up of three distinct but interdependent groups of entities: the Kaiser Foundation Health Plan, Inc. (KFHP) and its regional operating subsidiaries; Kaiser Foundation Hospitals; and the regional Permanente Medical Groups


I highly doubt that article is referencing the medical group.

edit: it’s definitely not the medical group since only physicians fill administrative roles in PMGs. Tom Meier, referenced in the article as a corporate treasurer, is not a physician.
 
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GassmanMD said:
That article doesn’t mention which Kaiser entity it’s referencing.

Kaiser Permanente is made up of three distinct but interdependent groups of entities: the Kaiser Foundation Health Plan, Inc. (KFHP) and its regional operating subsidiaries; Kaiser Foundation Hospitals; and the regional Permanente Medical Groups


I highly doubt that article is referencing the medical group.

edit: it’s definitely not the medical group since only physicians fill administrative roles in PMGs. Tom Meier, referenced in the article as a corporate treasurer, is not a physician.
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Correct. Still it’s better to work within a thriving health system than a struggling one. (See what I did there?). Also, $1 billion of the $2billion net income is from investment gains, not operations.
 
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nimbus said:
Correct. Still it’s better to work within a thriving health system than a struggling one. (See what I did there?). Also, $1 billion of the $2billion net income is from investment gains, not operations.
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This explained my previous q about 1.1b loss 1Q last year. Kaiser's Q operating income is around 1b. 1st Q last year it lost 2b from stock market. 1st Q this year it make 1b from stock market.

1b quarterly operating income is very good. No wonder UHC wants to do the same thing: insurance, medical groups , and if possible hospitals under one umbrella.
 
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This is SoCal Kaiser? I know NorCal pays a little more. The information I got for SoCal was full time in less desirable inland centers and then per diem for places like San Fernando Valley/West LA however it was ~150/hr without guaranteed work.

How long till partner out of curiosity?
 
XRanger said:
Has anyone ever gone from PP to Kaiser? How’s the transition?

Im currently in PP doing 100% solo cases but Kaiser is looking more and more attractive. There are a lot of uncertainties in PP with groups getting bought out left and right, losing contracts and decreasing reimbursement. From what a friend told me, the Kaiser figure discussed here is correct. Per diem starts at $200/hour. Once you make partner, you can make 500-600k, 10 weeks vacation, free healthcare/malpractice, pension+you can contribute 58k pretax to 401k.
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Healthcare has changed to a health savings plan for new hires. Killed a huge part of the incentive of Kaiser.
 
XRanger said:
Has anyone ever gone from PP to Kaiser? How’s the transition?

Im currently in PP doing 100% solo cases but Kaiser is looking more and more attractive. There are a lot of uncertainties in PP with groups getting bought out left and right, losing contracts and decreasing reimbursement. From what a friend told me, the Kaiser figure discussed here is correct. Per diem starts at $200/hour. Once you make partner, you can make 500-600k, 10 weeks vacation, free healthcare/malpractice, pension+you can contribute 58k pretax to 401k.
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What is "partner" at Kaiser? The package sounds pretty reasonable.
 
Leinie said:
What is "partner" at Kaiser? The package sounds pretty reasonable.
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Partner is essentially like tenure. harder to get fired, can save for retirement with keogh plan and accumulate more vacation/sick time.
 
GaseousClay said:
Partner is essentially like tenure. harder to get fired, can save for retirement with keogh plan and accumulate more vacation/sick time.
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I think anesthesiologists do well in Kaiser. It is all about working time there. The working time for anesthesiologists is well documented.

It is not that attractive for other specialties. My friend is an oncologist there. Every day his real working time is 10+ hours. However, Kaiser only counts the 8 hours when he is seeing patients. He spend 2+ hours to answer emails, write notes, etc.
 
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narcotics999 said:
I think anesthesiologists do well in Kaiser. It is all about working time there. The working time for anesthesiologists is well documented.

It is not that attractive for other specialties. My friend is an oncologist there. Every day his real working time is 10+ hours. However, Kaiser only counts the 8 hours when he is seeing patients. He spend 2+ hours to answer emails, write notes, etc.
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Kaiser anesthesia docs are paid a low BASE salary which results in a lower pension than other specialties. You can earn more money working overtime but it will not change you base pay which is what your pension is based on. Benefits are shift work, not worrying about billing, paid vacations/education time, and healthcare. The healthcare is "free" but you pay tax on it as imputed income so not really free.

Those making more money in PP will likely have more money for retirement then this pension will pay out if you save properly. Lets say you live 20 years after retirement making $150k in pension a year. You should have much more than that if you're making 100-200k more per year for 20-30 years in pp.

Lifestyle is probably better for kaiser given the benefits above. Just depends on what you want.
 
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GaseousClay said:
Kaiser anesthesia docs are paid a low BASE salary which results in a lower pension than other specialties. You can earn more money working overtime but it will not change you base pay which is what your pension is based on. Benefits are shift work, not worrying about billing, paid vacations/education time, and healthcare. The healthcare is "free" but you pay tax on it as imputed income so not really free.

Those making more money in PP will likely have more money for retirement then this pension will pay out if you save properly. Lets say you live 20 years after retirement making $150k in pension a year. You should have much more than that if you're making 100-200k more per year for 20-30 years in pp.

Lifestyle is probably better for kaiser given the benefits above. Just depends on what you want.
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If you can get a 700k/year job in SoCal for reasonable hours and a practice that won’t sell out to a conglomerate during your career, well done and yes you should probably take that job.
 
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kaioukenx said:
If you can get a 700k/year job in SoCal for reasonable hours and a practice that won’t sell out to a conglomerate during your career, well done and yes you should probably take that job.
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If you can date a stripper, well done and yes you probably should take that opportunity.
 
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real-teo said:
Anyone have any info on SoCal Kaiser Anesthesiology jobs? specifically, San Diego Kaiser? Ex: practice model, base pay, call, and any other useful information would be awesome.
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Kaiser is the second best job in San Diego.

My job is the best (Naval Medical Center San Diego) - and surprisingly, there is a contract position open right now (so I’ve heard). Get it while it’s hot!
 
XRanger said:
Yeah that’s a bummer. But my buddy said not too bad. Kaiser HSA plan has $1400 deductible (compared to other HSA HDHP plan with $5000-$7000 deductible), and Kaiser contributes $1000/year to your HSA which you can invest. So it’s more like $400 deductible and once you hit it, it’s like the old plan.
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Not in Kaiser but legally that can’t be true. To have an HSA deductible has to be 2.5k minimum for individual plan and 5k for family plan.

My (non anesthesia) job has an HSA option where they give you the whole deductible in the HSA, as well as more traditional ppo options. Seemed too good to be true, as why would you choose anything else? The rationale though is because that money is already yours in the HSA, you’re incentivized to limit your health expenditures and just save the cash, which saves the whole plan money.
 
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DoctwoB said:
Not in Kaiser but legally that can’t be true. To have an HSA deductible has to be 2.5k minimum for individual plan and 5k for family plan.

My (non anesthesia) job has an HSA option where they give you the whole deductible in the HSA, as well as more traditional ppo options. Seemed too good to be true, as why would you choose anything else? The rationale though is because that money is already yours in the HSA, you’re incentivized to limit your health expenditures and just save the cash, which saves the whole plan money.
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I think your deductible numbers are incorrect: IRS Announces 2021 Limits for HSAs and High-Deductible Health Plans
 
epidural man said:
Kaiser is the second best job in San Diego.

My job is the best (Naval Medical Center San Diego) - and surprisingly, there is a contract position open right now (so I’ve heard). Get it while it’s hot!
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Yeah, contractor / GS jobs at military hospitals can be awfully sweet gigs. Lounging around doing cases solo or at worst 1:1 with a resident, no weekends, no call. Healthy patients. No production pressure. And they even got rid of that AHLTA/Essentris abomination at your house ...

Careful you don't get institutionalized, though. Unless you plan to retire from that job, then go ahead I guess. :)
 
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epidural man said:
Kaiser is the second best job in San Diego.

My job is the best (Naval Medical Center San Diego) - and surprisingly, there is a contract position open right now (so I’ve heard). Get it while it’s hot!
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My ears perked up. How is it the best job in SD?
 
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epidural man said:
Kaiser is the second best job in San Diego.

My job is the best (Naval Medical Center San Diego) - and surprisingly, there is a contract position open right now (so I’ve heard). Get it while it’s hot!
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Any job where you have to work with CRNAs is automatically not the best!!
 
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okayplayer said:
I thought that mega group was supposed to be a decent gig? Things have changed?
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the mega group is still a good place to work. just annoying the first 6-12 months when you rotate hospitals before landing a permanent gig.
 
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