This is why the profession is going down the tube

[WVUPharm2007]

http://www.buzzfeed.com/hunterschwarz/old-economy-steve-is-a-new-meme-that-will-enrage-all-millenn

Pretty much what I've been saying since 2008 or so.

Damned baby boomers. No offense, Old Timer. Your generation sucked.

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[BMBiology]

This is the semi grown up equivalent to "F-U or Your Mama" when you were 13 and lost an argument.

Hell yeah it is a big F-U to someone who is not even working in the real world yet. Do something important and then tell us about it.

 

[rxlea]

Hell yeah it is a big F-U to someone who is not even working in the real world yet. Do something important and then tell us about it.

You don't even know what you're talking about. You're just another bitter pharmacist that relies on hearsay and everyday media to make (invalid) points.

I've worked in the "real world" before you were even in pharmacy school. Grow up.

 

[BMBiology]

And you are still in school. It is time to finally do what you have been preaching.

I have rarely complained about my work as a pharmacist. I have benefited greatly, personally and financially. And I am sure I have done more for this profession than you have. I don't need to talk about it. I just do it. That is the difference between us.

 

[rxlea]

And you are still in school. It is time to finally do what you have been preaching.

I have rarely complained about my work as a pharmacist. I have benefited greatly, personally and financially. And I am sure I have done more for this profession than you have. I don't need to talk about it. I just do it. That is the difference between us.

Oh please... You have nothing to say so you resort to posturing and the "I'm not taking you seriously because you're in school" line. As if you being a pharmacist makes you so much better than the rest of us.

The difference between us is that I'm already "doing" in ways that impact more than my pharmacy.

I don't have to be a pharmacist to do that.

 

[BMBiology]

When are you going to get off your academic high horse and do what you have been preaching?

 

[rxlea]

When are you going to get off your academic high horse and do what you have been preaching?

Now you're just slinging insults. *yawn*

It's not about a high horse. It's reality. I'm not sitting in some wet lab designing a medication. I'm out "doing". Not just in the form of research but in the form of tangible projects that do make a difference.

But if this is going to end in personal attacks, I'm out.

I encourage you to read something more than the LA Times, though. It will greatly benefit you, not just for these SDN discussions

 

[BMBiology]

Yes, reading academic papers and regurgitating them make you smart.

When are you going to publish your own research?

 

[rxlea]

Yes, reading academic papers and regurgitating them make you smart.

When are you going to publish your own research?

You have not yet made an intelligent response to either OT's or my post.

Publishing takes a long time, even after the research is all said and done (and written). It doesn't matter how many manuscripts I have in the works and already accepted for publication. But the real meat and potatoes is in the projects themselves, particularly the quality improvement ones. But this thread isn't about me although you're slinging insults to detract from the original intent of your own thread.

Actually have a discussion for once.

 

[Corpseman]

Do something important and get back to us.

'What, of actual importance, have you done?

 

[eagles22]

Pharmacy students are the whiniest bunch of people on the planet. Oh no, god forbid you actually have to have experience to get a job and look good on a resume! Oh no you might have to work in rural America before moving up to your dream job! OH MY GOD!

Time to grow up guys.

I don't think it's an unreasonable expectation that after 6+ years of college/graduate work that one would be able to find a job in a desirable location. People aren't asking for their dream jobs. They're asking for jobs in places that they would like to live. After all that work, lost income from being in school, delaying family/marriage, it is a big deal having to move someplace crappy to get a job. If this were a forum of people who wanted to make it in the entertainment industry bitching about having to be a gofer before given a chance to do something meaningful, your sentiment would be valid, but these are people who have advanced training who should be able to find a job that pays well compared to the investment put in to the education in a location that is at least semi-desirable. Remember, just because something could be worse, it does not mean the current situation isn't bad.

 

[Corpseman]

I wonder if BM is compiling a huge list of all the important things he has done as a farmie.

 

[BMBiology]

This thread is not about me. Please feel free to start a thread entitled, "important accomplishments by BMBiology". Thank you

 

[Corpseman]

This thread is not about me. Please feel free to start a thread entitled, "important accomplishments by BMBiology". Thank you

Nice of you to try to call out other forum members, but hide when you are called out.

 

[BMBiology]

Again, this thread is not about me. You can read this thread and form your own opinion.

 

[Corpseman]

Again, this thread is not about me. You can read this thread and form your own opinion.

Pretty sure you made it about you when you said F-U to Lea, because you could not form an intelligent argument.


That's fine, continue to do all the "important" things that you do in the field you hate so much. Although I am pretty sure you have never done anything of importance.

 

[owlegrad]

My opinion is that pharmacy is awesome. k thx bye

 

[BMBiology]

CM, take 200mg of chill pill twice a day x 7 days and get back to me.

 

[Ilikechemicals]

Patients will now have the knowledge and power to choose their provider based on publicly available patient reported outcomes and patient satisfaction survey results.

In other words Yelp for healthcare providers. All I know from reading reviews from Yelp is that people are expected to be treated like they are the mother of dragons. Can't wait!

 

[eagles22]

In other words Yelp for healthcare providers. All I know from reading reviews from Yelp is that people are expected to be treated like they are the mother of dragons. Can't wait!

+1. Take a look at the emergency medicine forums. Patient satisfaction surveys are a constant source of grief to those guys. The methodology is horrendous (most results aren't significant, yet they're still reported and acted on). Most people can't even phonetically pronounce drug names, so there's no way they're going to look at survey results and be able to interpret them. Also, it puts stress on the provider to make the patient happy rather than to provide appropriate care. There's also data showing increased patient satisfaction is correlated with poorer health outcomes.

 

[rxlea]

Yelp for patients or not, that's what is happening. And that's why, more than ever, PRO methods are important!

These things need to be validated for sure.

Think about it, though. How many patients have complained to you about how their doctor doesn't listen? I've had a lot tell me they would rather go to an NP over a physician because the NP listens. Why is that?

There is definitely a disconnect between what patients want and what they've been getting. Should we as practitioners just dismiss their feedback altogether? And, if not, then what should be our approach? How do you measure more intangible outcomes in a meaningful way?

 

[rxlea]

There's also data showing increased patient satisfaction is correlated with poorer health outcomes.

What data are you referring to specifically?

 

[eagles22]

Yelp for patients or not, that's what is happening. And that's why, more than ever, PRO methods are important!

These things need to be validated for sure.

Think about it, though. How many patients have complained to you about how their doctor doesn't listen? I've had a lot tell me they would rather go to an NP over a physician because the NP listens. Why is that?

There is definitely a disconnect between what patients want and what they've been getting. Should we as practitioners just dismiss their feedback altogether? And, if not, then what should be our approach? How do you measure more intangible outcomes in a meaningful way?

The problem is that people give feedback but have no way to actually gauge the effectiveness or appropriateness of the care they receive. Patients are usually unqualified to judge the quality of their care. They may feel the doctor doesn't listen because when the patient goes in with the sniffles, the doc decides not to give abx even though that's "the only thing that ever helps". People who twist an ankle expect xrays, but a lot of the time it's not needed. They leave thinking the doctor didn't properly evaluate them, but in reality the xray would have been the inappropriate treatment. And studies show that satisfaction is oftentimes tied to time spent with the doctor (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11386893). They want to go to the NP because NPs tend to spend more time with the patient. People are usually dissatisfied when they don't get what they expect, and, unfortunately, what people usually expect is not what is medically appropriate.

Just look at the retail pharmacy. What do people complain about? Not having drivethrus, fill time, price, phone wait time. None of these are actually related to the quality of care the receive. No one ever says that the pharmacist didn't take enough time to verify my rx was properly typed, filled, and won't interact with my other meds. They say that the pharmacist took too damn long to put those pills in the bottle. Dissatisfaction usually doesn't reflect poor medical care, and quality metrics need to focus on actual medical outcomes rather than a patient's perception. The only reason to consider these complaints is from a business rather than healthcare perspective.

As for satisfaction scores correlating with increased mortality, I quote " In a nationally representative sample, higher patient satisfaction was associated with less emergency department use but with greater inpatient use, higher overall health care and prescription drug expenditures, and increased mortality." (http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1108766)

 

[Hello2000]

There is so much pressure to get CS surveys done as part of the metrics that friends and acquaintances are asked nicely to completes the survey. As these friends want to do you a favor, they tend to big up the scores and feed back leading to skewed data that indicates that all in the store is going just swimmingly when in fact the data is pretty meaningless.

The $M's spent on these surveys is just a waste of money IMHO and just adds more meaningless work for us to do.

 

[rxlea]

The problem is that people give feedback but have no way to actually gauge the effectiveness or appropriateness of the care they receive. Patients are usually unqualified to judge the quality of their care. They may feel the doctor doesn't listen because when the patient goes in with the sniffles, the doc decides not to give abx even though that's "the only thing that ever helps". People who twist an ankle expect xrays, but a lot of the time it's not needed. They leave thinking the doctor didn't properly evaluate them, but in reality the xray would have been the inappropriate treatment. And studies show that satisfaction is oftentimes tied to time spent with the doctor (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11386893). They want to go to the NP because NPs tend to spend more time with the patient. People are usually dissatisfied when they don't get what they expect, and, unfortunately, what people usually expect is not what is medically appropriate.

Just look at the retail pharmacy. What do people complain about? Not having drivethrus, fill time, price, phone wait time. None of these are actually related to the quality of care the receive. No one ever says that the pharmacist didn't take enough time to verify my rx was properly typed, filled, and won't interact with my other meds. They say that the pharmacist took too damn long to put those pills in the bottle. Dissatisfaction usually doesn't reflect poor medical care, and quality metrics need to focus on actual medical outcomes rather than a patient's perception. The only reason to consider these complaints is from a business rather than healthcare perspective.

As for satisfaction scores correlating with increased mortality, I quote " In a nationally representative sample, higher patient satisfaction was associated with less emergency department use but with greater inpatient use, higher overall health care and prescription drug expenditures, and increased mortality." (http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1108766)

All very good points.

I invite you to read this commentary on that particular study, which discusses the "positive feedback systems" in health care:

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1108763

It also points out the limitation associated with the effect size.

I agree that patients can be "unqualified" to determine what is quality care; however, it is my opinion that, particularly with older patients, this is due in part to the traditionally paternalistic nature of the health care industry. Pre-internet, where would people go to learn about the care that others (who have their same problem) receive? For the most part, a physician said, "Here. Take this" and they did. How many times has a patient said they didn't know what their medication was for but they take it because their doctor said so?

In the age of the internet, patients can go to various fora and find out about the care other people are receiving, compare notes, etc. Then there are all these shows about the "mystery diagnosis" and OMG my doctor never told me that!!! Suddenly, patients are realizing that there is a definite, perhaps measurable difference in the care they may receive between providers and institutions.

The problem is, we don't know how to adequately and objectively measure that outside of therapeutic endpoints, cost analysis, mortality, and utility...all tangible measurements, yes, but enter in bunch of confounders: variability in patient population, institutional resources, FTEs, quality of workforce, blah, blah, blah.

So, we look to the endpoints: QoL and markers, neither of which are 100% standardized. There is a slew of purportedly validated surveys and outcomes tools but at the end of the day, if you're not drafting them correctly in the first place and not analyzing them appropriately, they are useless/meaningless.

Yet, it doesn't negate the fact that knowledge is power- and with that comes the power to choose based on available information. I think it's a good thing patients are getting more information about their health. The correctness of that information is questionable, though, so it's up to us to provide the correct info. We have to gradually change the system as a whole, at every single point of care, down to patient understanding... No easy task but we have to start somewhere.

People think that something of this magnitude can "happen overnight" but it can't...and it certainly can not when the very providers supposedly involved in that change are pushing back or being obstinate.

Unfortunately, our government sees fit to institute some bastardized version of health care reform almost as if with the intent to let it fail, ostensibly to save us a trillion+ dollars (or whatever the ridiculous figure was)....Not that I would expect a bunch of flapping heads in Congress to have a freaking clue anyway but I digress.

Our generation should see this as an opportunity rather than just some laborious task.

Then again, I tend to be a Pollyanna when it comes to this stuff.

 

[BelowTheMean]

Again, this thread is not about me. You can read this thread and form your own opinion.

There is no point to try to get to the unicorn believing students. You are just reporting what you honestly see in the current state of pharmacy, some will like you for it, others wont. I wouldve appreciated a thread like this 9 yrs ago when i started pharmacy school.

There will be always those that think they'll change the world, just let them be. Let them try to change the ways of cvs/walgs/etc to make it better and be so shocked when they suddenly get shipped to a different store/reduction in hours/float to some far random place. How do i know this? Been there, done that. As a new grad i totally bought up the positive attitude and change pharmacy thing and tried to fix my store to make it so much better, made so many suggestions to pdm and corporate, only to hear nothing back. Then voiced my opinion on how less tech hours would not increase my customer service scores and bam...suddenly next monday im working in some store 2 districts away. Thank you very much mr pharmacist!

 

[rxlea]

There is no point to try to get to the unicorn believing students. You are just reporting what you honestly see in the current state of pharmacy, some will like you for it, others wont. I wouldve appreciated a thread like this 9 yrs ago when i started pharmacy school.

There will be always those that think they'll change the world, just let them be. Let them try to change the ways of cvs/walgs/etc to make it better and be so shocked when they suddenly get shipped to a different store/reduction in hours/float to some far random place. How do i know this? Been there, done that. As a new grad i totally bought up the positive attitude and change pharmacy thing and tried to fix my store to make it so much better, made so many suggestions to pdm and corporate, only to hear nothing back. Then voiced my opinion on how less tech hours would not increase my customer service scores and bam...suddenly next monday im working in some store 2 districts away. Thank you very much mr pharmacist!

Part of that is our fragmented profession.. How can you advocate for change when there is so much infighting? Not to mention the political impotence of our supposed leaders....especially compared to, say, nursing.

You can't change an entire field with only a small percentage of pharmacists actually doing something about it.

Somebody has to change the world, though, right?

 

[eagles22]

All very good points.

I invite you to read this commentary on that particular study, which discusses the "positive feedback systems" in health care:

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1108763

It also points out the limitation associated with the effect size.

I agree that patients can be "unqualified" to determine what is quality care; however, it is my opinion that, particularly with older patients, this is due in part to the traditionally paternalistic nature of the health care industry. Pre-internet, where would people go to learn about the care that others (who have their same problem) receive? For the most part, a physician said, "Here. Take this" and they did. How many times has a patient said they didn't know what their medication was for but they take it because their doctor said so?

In the age of the internet, patients can go to various fora and find out about the care other people are receiving, compare notes, etc. Then there are all these shows about the "mystery diagnosis" and OMG my doctor never told me that!!! Suddenly, patients are realizing that there is a definite, perhaps measurable difference in the care they may receive between providers and institutions.

The problem is, we don't know how to adequately and objectively measure that outside of therapeutic endpoints, cost analysis, mortality, and utility...all tangible measurements, yes, but enter in bunch of confounders: variability in patient population, institutional resources, FTEs, quality of workforce, blah, blah, blah.

So, we look to the endpoints: QoL and markers, neither of which are 100% standardized. There is a slew of purportedly validated surveys and outcomes tools but at the end of the day, if you're not drafting them correctly in the first place and not analyzing them appropriately, they are useless/meaningless.

Yet, it doesn't negate the fact that knowledge is power- and with that comes the power to choose based on available information. I think it's a good thing patients are getting more information about their health. The correctness of that information is questionable, though, so it's up to us to provide the correct info. We have to gradually change the system as a whole, at every single point of care, down to patient understanding... No easy task but we have to start somewhere.

People think that something of this magnitude can "happen overnight" but it can't...and it certainly can not when the very providers supposedly involved in that change are pushing back or being obstinate.

Unfortunately, our government sees fit to institute some bastardized version of health care reform almost as if with the intent to let it fail, ostensibly to save us a trillion+ dollars (or whatever the ridiculous figure was)....Not that I would expect a bunch of flapping heads in Congress to have a freaking clue anyway but I digress.

Our generation should see this as an opportunity rather than just some laborious task.

Then again, I tend to be a Pollyanna when it comes to this stuff.

You address a lot of very good points in this. The first of which is more information available to patients used to judge the effectiveness of their care. How often do you see someone come in and demand treatment X because of Dr Google? It happens fairly frequently. People take advice from their peers on the internet, unqualified "experts", or advertising materials. Usually, they're looking for someone to validate the treatment that they already think that they need. Then they get upset when they aren't treated according to those sources. Patients who know how to evaluate and process information are great, but that's not the majority. There's a reason you go to medical/pharmacy school for 4 years to be able to make these clinical decisions, and a 15 minute research session on WebMD doesn't substitute for years of study. Just look at how many people don't vaccinate because of what Jenny McCarthy does. What happens when the research is just plain wrong? The patient leaves unsatisfied.

I guess we differ in the fact that I think knowledge is great AFTER a diagnosis has been made. Let the patient go to support group forums, google the disease, read about new studies on it. That's great and means the patient can know exactly what's going on with his/her body. However, when patients try to diagnose, it just leads to problems and unrealistic expectations.

I think your evaluation of our measurements are 100% correct. We have no way to easily gauge if proper medical care has been provided so we do use surrogate markers. There still is the issue that oftentimes the data we do collect is purely meaningless, yet it is acted upon. If you look at all the criticism towards Press Ganey (the surveys used in EM) you'll see people just want to boil everything down to 1 number to compare everyone and that usually leads to problems. If those numbers are released to the population, you'll have people going to the ED in the 99th percentile (or maybe the 1st percentile because people don't know what those measures mean) without looking to see how those meaningless numbers are compiled, and places that offer great care, yet had poor survey returns, will suffer.

 

[Ilikechemicals]

Think about it, though. How many patients have complained to you about how their doctor doesn't listen? I've had a lot tell me they would rather go to an NP over a physician because the NP listens. Why is that?

Cause they're dumb. I would rather go see Dr. House, get treated like &^*%, and have my medical issue discovered and (possibly) fixed, then go waste time with a NP. Who cares if they listen if they cant fix anything. just my opinion

 

[Stilltrying1288]

Cause they're dumb. I would rather go see Dr. House, get treated like &^*%, and have my medical issue discovered and (possibly) fixed, then go waste time with a NP. Who cares if they listen if they cant fix anything. just my opinion

That be great if all ahole doctors were like house, but that isn't the case.

 

[eagles22]

That be great if all ahole doctors were like house, but that isn't the case.

All ahole docs aren't all unskilled, but patients will rate them as so thus invalidating their feedback on quality of care.

 

[confettiflyer]

man what's with all these interlopers coming in randomly? these posts/threads are par for the course. no one gives a crap except...you random people from other forums.

 

[rxlea]

man what's with all these interlopers coming in randomly? these posts/threads are par for the course. no one gives a crap except...you random people from other forums.

On behalf of Arizonans everywhere, I apologize for dude's douchey post up there^^

 

[Corpseman]

on behalf of arizonans everywhere, i apologize for dude's douchey post up there^^

+1

 

[owlegrad]

I agree with confetti. Bunch of interlopers. Get off my lawn!

 

[confettiflyer]

I agree with confetti. Bunch of interlopers. Get off my lawn!

 

[jokersmiles]

lol this is so true.

 

[Amicable Angora]

Pharmacy is getting worse and worse...

 

[owlegrad]

Quite a necrobump. I like how little my posting style has changed in 2+ years though.

 

[BMBiology]

(1) Pharmacy schools: sure there's a saturation but as long as the federal government keeps on guaranteeing those student loans, we will continue to make a killing. Don't worry students, clinical pharmacy will save us all. The government will finally reimburse us for our clinical services pretty soon! Sure, we have been saying that for the last 30 years but it will happen students. You guys will be making bank. So to accommodate for this future need for pharmacists, we are going to add another 20 seats to our lecture hall = $$$

(2) ACPE: we have to give new schools accreditation or we are going to get sued. Sure, we can raise our standards but that would mean fewer schools will apply for accreditation and therefore, less money for us

(3) NAPLEX/MPJE: hey I know we are a joke but we are making a ton of money now because pharmacists have to be licensed in multiple states due to the saturation

(4) Pre pharmacy students: all of these pharmacists are whiner! They have it so good! What? My friend who has a 2.4 GPA just got accepted to multiple pharmacy schools? All I have to do is borrow 300 k and I can one day work as a pharmacist? I don't care if I just make 70 k a year and have to pay 60 k in student loans. That's a lot better than being unemployed! I am not going to worry about student loans because I am pretty sure the government will one day forgive them. A doctorate degree baby! You will respect me. Where do I sign up??!

(5) 1st year pharmacy students: I know it's tough but hey, I am a top student with a great personality. I just have to extra work hard. That's all it takes. Harding work = success in my book! I will be one of the lucky ones. Besides, who knows what's going to happen 3 or 4 years from now?

(6) 4th year pharmacy students: OMG, I have just checked my student loan balance! 300 k with 6.8% and 7.9% interest! Where is my CVS offer!? I have been kissing butts and no offer yet!! = /

(7) Pharmacists: yeah, I have 300 k in student loans and benefits/pay have been cut but hey, what can I do? I just wanted to do part-time and never wanted pharmacy to be a career anyways. And where's that restroom key so this stupid mom can stop bothering me and I can work in peace!

(8) Residents: I am doing a residency so I will get that job everybody wants. What? I have to do 2 years of residency now or work at Kmart? Thank god there's IBR! I don't care about the compounding interest and I will end up paying more on student loans. I will do a 2 year residency! I am a unicorn! Love me

(9) CVS: pay back is a b*tch! Yeah, we had to keep some of you horrible pharmacists and pay you overtime because of the shortage. But now, we hold the cards and we know Sallie Mae will be your best friend for 30 years. No more guaranteed hours for the new grads. Just 30 hours max! No more benefits like vacation time, holiday pay, 401 k matching for the first year. You want some time off to visit grandma?! Do it on your own time! We all know you won't survive the first year anyways so what's the point? Rural America is where you will be. Take it or leave it!

I started this thread like almost 3 years? Got a lot of heat for it as well.

Man, I have probably saved a lot of careers lol

Get me something nice for Christmas and we will call it even.

 

[owlegrad]

I started this thread like almost 3 years? Got a lot of heat for it as well.

Man, I have probably saved a lot of careers lol

Get me something nice for Christmas and we will call it even.

And I see I am not the only member whose posting style hasn't changed

 

[BidingMyTime]

If this were a forum of people who wanted to make it in the entertainment industry bitching about having to be a gofer before given a chance to do something meaningful, your sentiment would be valid

A better anology would be someone who wanted to work in the entertainment industry bitchin' becasue they can't find a job in Chicago or Seattle. Pharmacy is no different from every other industry on earth, people have to move where the jobs are (or figure out how to be self-employed where they want to live.)

Yelp for patients or not, that's what is happening. And that's why, more than ever, PRO methods are important!

I wonder if you still feel the same way about surveys 2 years later?

I fail to see how any form of "validation" will improve the survey. Mandated surveys are horrible, and generally meaningless, for all the reasons that have been listed above. #1 patients have no idea if they are getting good care or bad care. Complaints about "bad" care, they aren't given enough pain medicine, the nurse harasses them all night long taking their blood pressure, the physical therapist made them do stuff that hurt bad because she was a sadist, they had to see the hospitalist instead of their personal doctor, staff wouldn't let their family throw a party in their room Friday night, was only fed low-fat diabetic food and staff wouldn't let them order in pizza, etc.

This is the kind of crap that hospitals are penalized for. And there are no good answers, 1) give the patient good medical care, get a bad survey, get penalized or 2) give the patient everything they want, pt has poorer medical outcomes, more likely to get readmitted early, get penalized. Patient satisfaction surveys exist solely to give lower reimbursement to hospitals.

 

[rph3664]

There is no point to try to get to the unicorn believing students. You are just reporting what you honestly see in the current state of pharmacy, some will like you for it, others wont. I wouldve appreciated a thread like this 9 yrs ago when i started pharmacy school.

There will be always those that think they'll change the world, just let them be. Let them try to change the ways of cvs/walgs/etc to make it better and be so shocked when they suddenly get shipped to a different store/reduction in hours/float to some far random place. How do i know this? Been there, done that. As a new grad i totally bought up the positive attitude and change pharmacy thing and tried to fix my store to make it so much better, made so many suggestions to pdm and corporate, only to hear nothing back. Then voiced my opinion on how less tech hours would not increase my customer service scores and bam...suddenly next monday im working in some store 2 districts away. Thank you very much mr pharmacist!

Last night, my BFF and I were chatting on Facebook, and I told him about a classmate who, right after graduation, got a job at a well-known independent store that is also quite notorious in our local pharmacy community (I knew this because we lived in the same apartment complex) and about October 1st, he called me to ask if the mail order place I worked at was hiring. He'd been fired, and knowing what I do now, he was probably asking too many questions about various illegal and unethical practices, and they had to get him out of there before he found out too much and blew the whistle on them.

That store is still around, more than 20 years later. A couple years ago, 14 (that's right, FOURTEEN) people were arrested due to selling drugs they had acquired at this store. And as for the mail order place, when it relocated a couple years later, I heard more than once from more than one person that NOBODY applied for a job there. We weren't that desperate.

 

[deleted390966]

Nobody will believe this doom-and-gloom thread until the OP or someone can provide data that shows a steep decline in pharmacist salary OR employment rate.

 

[Pharmerjoe77]

Nobody will believe this doom-and-gloom thread until the OP or someone can provide data that shows a steep decline in pharmacist salary OR employment rate.

Just go ask actual practicing pharmacists rather than greedy schools that just want to pump out as many grads as they can to make as much money as they can. I've seen the best pharmacists get fired for stupid reasons and then struggle to find jobs. I actually knew a pharmacist who had to declare bankruptcy and get on food stamps. Scary. Have you seen the new BLS projection of only 3% growth for pharmacists? We are in bad shape, it's going to get ugly.

 

[PAtoPharm]

How much worse will things possibly get? Is it likely to reach the "tipping point," so to speak, in 4-5 years? If schools are already experiencing a significant decrease in the number of applications received (the school I want to get accepted to is actually accepting scores from PCAT exams taken later than Jan. for the first time in years), then isn't it only a matter of time before programs are forced to either close or reduce their seat numbers? I mean, aside from pitiful fools like myself who don't really stand a chance at getting accepted to any other graduate programs in high-paying fields due to past critical academic failures (I.e., those of us with severely limited options), what other group is going to keep applying in droves to pharmacy school over the coming years? Isn't a "market correction" bound to occur at some point?

 

[steveysmith54]

How much worse will things possibly get? Is it likely to reach the "tipping point," so to speak, in 4-5 years? If schools are already experiencing a significant decrease in the number of applications received (the school I want to get accepted to is actually accepting scores from PCAT exams taken later than Jan. for the first time in years), then isn't it only a matter of time before programs are forced to either close or reduce their seat numbers? I mean, aside from pitiful fools like myself who don't really stand a chance at getting accepted to any other graduate programs in high-paying fields due to past critical academic failures (I.e., those of us with severely limited options), what other group is going to keep applying in droves to pharmacy school over the coming years? Isn't a "market correction" bound to occur at some point?

at some point, yes... The damage that is done is too great. what incentive do the greedy "academics" have to start reducing their class sizes? if anything i know the newer schools plan to increase the class size. If i recall correctly Chapman enrolled like 15 more students than they told ACPE they intended to do in their inaugural class. As long as the govn't keeps writing blank checks to students and the existence of IBR/PAYE programs these schools will exist. We've had threads about this, PHARM.D. is the easiest health professional doctorate to attain. Someone else mentioned, too many bio majors who are working in labs making 10-15 bucks an hour will continue to apply bc of the "120K dream and emerging clinical roles" and the man power project that the greedy deans of chapmans, west coasts, KGI, and California health science continue to preach.

 

[PAtoPharm]

at some point, yes... The damage that is done is too great. what incentive do the greedy "academics" have to start reducing their class sizes? if anything i know the newer schools plan to increase the class size. If i recall correctly Chapman enrolled like 15 more students than they told ACPE they intended to do in their inaugural class. As long as the govn't keeps writing blank checks to students and the existence of IBR/PAYE programs these schools will exist. We've had threads about this, PHARM.D. is the easiest health professional doctorate to attain. Someone else mentioned, too many bio majors who are working in labs making 10-15 bucks an hour will continue to apply bc of the "120K dream and emerging clinical roles" and the man power project that the greedy deans of chapmans, west coasts, KGI, and California health science continue to preach.

Those are good points, but won't the effects of the supply/demand dynamic leaning so heavily in favor of the supply side eventually result in fewer people applying to pharmacy programs?

 

[steveysmith54]

Those are good points, but won't the effects of the supply/demand dynamic leaning so heavily in favor of the supply side eventually result in fewer people applying to pharmacy programs?

the keyword that you mention is "eventually" Most schools, even the newer garbage ones have 4-5 applicants per spot... This is 400% more than required to fill a class. My prediction is it will take at LEAST 12 years for enough grads to experience unemployment and failure before schools actually fail to fill a class. anyways, this is enough of this talk for tonight.