Unhealthy Work Environment

Veterinary Science Graduate Certificate from UofI
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lhmhtd said:
Until recently, and especially when I first started working in vet med, I accepted and even started to expect being treated poorly. I feel like there's this attitude of having to be able to basically be **** on if you want to gain veterinary experience. Almost like hazing, if you will.
While I do appreciate that it's a highly stressful career, you don't get a free ride to be an asshat to people who truly want to be in this field. It's such a turn off and completely unnecessary. Sack up and seek therapy, take medication, do yoga, whatever you have to do to be able to deal.
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There is hazing, and it doesn't even necessarily have to be because someone is stressed. It's the whole "Well, when I was an intern, I was allowed 2 hours of sleep a night for the entire year so you have to go through that too" mentality.

It seems like new grad interns are hazed a lot. I don't think it's talked about enough, or the interns themselves refer to it as 'being the low man' instead of calling it bullying so it ends up being a well known secret. It doesn't happen everywhere, but from all of the interns/residents I've talked to, the biggest piece of advice I've heard was to ask the current interns what it's like, because mistreatment is that widespread. It goes beyond demanding hours and poor pay...that's kind of expected.
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lhmhtd said:
Especially after I initially talked with the vet and expressed my concern about one of the techs being so nasty to me, and he essentially just told me "well you're not the first person to come to me saying these same things and I just don't know how to fix it. She's beyond helping."
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If she's beyond helping then she's certainly beyond employing. If I were in charge that's someone I would have out of my practice in a hot second.

missdarjeeling said:
I strongly disagree. It's not about whether an employee should or shouldn't take it personally. Stress does not excuse abusive behavior. If someone can't help but abuse others when they're stressed, then they need to have the self-awareness to either fix the problem or leave the field. They don't have the right to continue to abuse people because, hey, they're stressed and that's just how they deal with it.

My husband was in the military, and outside of boot camp, it was rare that higher ups would be straight up verbally abusive in the way you guys are describing. And no one ever shoved or hit someone under their command. If people can hold it together and not abuse their staff when they're deployed during an actual war, I think veterinarians are capable of doing it in a small animal hospital, too. Making excuses for people who behave this way does nothing to help the victims or the abusers. Let's not set the bar so low.
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pinkpuppy9 said:
This.

Also, remember that you can leave. Don't feel loyal or tied to an abusive environment. You probably won't be able to get someone to change, but you can control whether or not that person is in your life.
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I would also like to reiterate what these posts above say, which is that you are not responsible for putting up with abuse and the onus is on abusive people to fix their ****, not for you to deal with it. I luckily experienced vet med from the completely opposite end of the spectrum as you all and worked under a veterinarian who really values being supportive and mindful about the way she interacts with her employees. She is no less demanding than any other veterinarian but the difference is that she cultivates an environment in which a person can learn and grow instead of dread coming back to every day.

Look, when crazy talks - you need to listen. And never, ever forget what you heard when you did. People who are disrespectful, mean, abusive - they are showing you who they are. It's not a "one time thing" or a "momentary lapse in judgment" or anything else they tell you. That behavior won't go away without some serious work that sure as hell can't happen in the short time span between when they hurt you and when they "apologized" for it.
 
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missdarjeeling said:
I strongly disagree. It's not about whether an employee should or shouldn't take it personally. Stress does not excuse abusive behavior. If someone can't help but abuse others when they're stressed, then they need to have the self-awareness to either fix the problem or leave the field. They don't have the right to continue to abuse people because, hey, they're stressed and that's just how they deal with it.

My husband was in the military, and outside of boot camp, it was rare that higher ups would be straight up verbally abusive in the way you guys are describing. And no one ever shoved or hit someone under their command. If people can hold it together and not abuse their staff when they're deployed during an actual war, I think veterinarians are capable of doing it in a small animal hospital, too. Making excuses for people who behave this way does nothing to help the victims or the abusers. Let's not set the bar so low.
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I agree with you. I did say that just because they're stressed doesn't necessarily make it right. I have a tendency to rationalize these things because, frankly, I'm quite accustomed to this kind of treatment. I was born and raised with it. So I took it. But the good news is that I left that clinic over 4 years ago. When it got to a certain point, I was done. I am on friendly terms with the doctor now, but she's not a great person to work with. I'm not really excusing her abuse for her per se, but attaching some sort of explanation to it makes ME feel better.

I absolutely agree that these types of people need to evaluate what's wrong and fix it, or just leave the field if it's that stressful.

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Want to tear my hair out when I hear all these stories and then I think to myself 'well my job wasn't really that bad though' but honest to god it's almost just de-facto in vet med to have had a crappy work experience somewhere along the line. My old boss was definitely verbally abusive to the point where she definitely isn't my reference (an assc. vet who works there is though) and the manager....holy wow. Talk about treating you like a piece of dirt, didn't help that he was the boss' son either. I don't want to look at that and think it's the standard but even worse, that was pretty mild.
Makes sense when they say many vets are going into public med now, private can be sooooo toxic.
 
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DVMDream said:
I deal via crushing the rose colored glasses of snowflakes. ... and with tequila, of course. ;)
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WhtsThFrequency said:
:highfive:
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Reading all of these stories makes me really wonder why people can't just act like decent human beings.
 
English Hunter-Jumper show barn drama is what originally tuned me off the idea of equine med. After 5 years of working there the idea of setting foot on the property had me feeling nauseous and stressed out, and my love of horses had really faded.

Best decision I ever made was leaving. After doing a lot of more "casual" riding (trail riding, light jumping, basic schooling) on friends horses for a few years I got back into the industry. My love for them came back, and I would be open to equine med as an option again. I miss the show barn coaching and showing, but I don't think I will go back anytime soon.

Crazy cat ladies are a thing though :scared:
 
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WhtsThFrequency said:
Like those crazy people that own Mini Coopers and go on Mini Cooper parades.
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Where do I sign up? ;)

But seriously...I can't imagine what you all have gone through. Not that I have a ton of work experience under my belt, but in both vet med related experiences and jobs/internships, nothing has ever been anything less than neutral/civil (in fact, they were pretty much all positive/supportive). I've heard gossip about Dr. so-and-so in Xtown being crazy or whatever, but I can't imagine working around or under someone who would get that angry or abusive...inappropriate on so many levels, and I have no idea how I'd even react in such an event. It kind of appalls me just the idea that someone could treat a coworker or employee that way in a public/professional setting. I'm sorry y'all have gotten out of those situations and hope you never have to experience that again.
 
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Talked with a lawyer yesterday... she said unless I can get someone to put something in writing backing me up, I don't have a lot of solid evidence. :(
She always said I can file a police report but in her experience, nothing comes of it usually. The police department has more important things on their agenda than some he said-she said workplace drama. Apparently the state of Georgia typically sides with employers as there a lot of laws protecting them and not a whole lot protecting employees if it wasn't a very serious offense.
She recommended I file for unemployment. The fact that a previous employee also recently filed for unemployment for wrongful termination and won should help my case.

I also have the option of hiring a legal company to do a reference check, and they transcribe exactly what he's saying about me to potential employers.

Ugh! I don't want to be dealing with any of this crap. I'm just so over it all. I've been struggling mentally for the past 6 weeks as it is and I'm just done with this mess. I have never had trouble finding a job so dealing with one rejection after another has really been tough- I've been feeling like such a loser. The only comfort i can find is that karma will make its way back around to him.
 
lhmhtd said:
Talked with a lawyer yesterday... she said unless I can get someone to put something in writing backing me up, I don't have a lot of solid evidence. :(
She always said I can file a police report but in her experience, nothing comes of it usually. The police department has more important things on their agenda than some he said-she said workplace drama. Apparently the state of Georgia typically sides with employers as there a lot of laws protecting them and not a whole lot protecting employees if it wasn't a very serious offense.
She recommended I file for unemployment. The fact that a previous employee also recently filed for unemployment for wrongful termination and won should help my case.

I also have the option of hiring a legal company to do a reference check, and they transcribe exactly what he's saying about me to potential employers.

Ugh! I don't want to be dealing with any of this crap. I'm just so over it all. I've been struggling mentally for the past 6 weeks as it is and I'm just done with this mess. I have never had trouble finding a job so dealing with one rejection after another has really been tough- I've been feeling like such a loser. The only comfort i can find is that karma will make its way back around to him.
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Ugh what a nightmare! Hopefully it all turns around quickly for you!
 
Trilt said:
Let's not mention crazy bird people...

Or for absolutely true crazy, primate people...
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Omg, are there actually crazy primate people, or was that a joke? Hahahah
 
What’s the least inflammatory way to leave a toxic work environment? And do you include it on VMCAS?
 
Skimble said:
How toxic? The best thing to do is put in your notice and leave it at that. Sometimes giving two weeks notice isn’t possible though. I guess we’d need more specifics.
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This is an ER and a couple months ago the associate vet and one of the techs were fired because they were caught sleeping together on an overnight (the firing was justified). We were already short-staffed prior to that and we lost a FT tech. I was hired to help out on weekends only because I have a 30 hour/week day job and take 15 credits/semester. I was asked if I could help out more during this transition time so I agreed to through January but the owner scheduled me during the week through February. I told her that I need to keep my hours to weekends and she got snotty and guilted me over it. The other FT tech let her know 12 hours in advance that he wasn’t going to make his shift that night (he had a legitimate reason and never calls out) and without expressing any concern for his well-being she fired him via text. This tech had worked for her for several years and had been working 70+ hour weeks since the other tech was fired. So now she’s super short-staffed and trying to guilt me into picking up more hours but I can’t. We have 2 experienced techs helping out on weekends only because they have day practice jobs during the week and she respects their schedules but not mine.

She is a really hard person to work for in general. She gets mad over the most asinine things like one time I opened a syringe that was the wrong size and she was mad I threw it in the trash because it was wasteful. Last week she went on a rampage because there was a little bit of water sitting in the toilet brush holder thing. When someone quits she talks trash about them for at least a week or more. I’m honestly scared when I work alone with her and pray no patients come in because she hovers over my every move and criticizes every little thing. I’m stressed and anxious before my shifts and I don’t think it’s worth it. I don’t need the money and I have SA GP, avian & exotic, and equine vet experience so I don’t know what I’m gaining by sticking around. I guess I’ve just never been a quitter and I know she’ll talk trash about me to anyone that will listen if I leave.

TL;DR, I’m tired of being guilted, yelled at, and having my every move scrutinized. I welcome constructive feedback but this is far from that.
 
I think it would be reasonable to give two weeks notice and look for another job that will be a better fit for you. Tell her you need to concentrate on your studies if you’d like.

As far as VMCAS, I’d probably still put it on there, but I’m not sure what the best advice is there. It’s not like you will be using her for an eLOR or refrence.
 
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EngrSC said:
What’s the least inflammatory way to leave a toxic work environment? And do you include it on VMCAS?
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Like Skimble said, would give your two weeks notice and not look back. Hopefully you will find a job with a much healthier work environment!

Personally, I was in a very toxic work environment as well. I put the experience on my VMCAS application (applied this cycle and was accepted), because it was vet experience hours. It wasn’t touched on in either of my interviews why I decided to leave that job. I will say that I did end up bringing up the bullying situation I dealt with at that job in one of my interviews because it was relevant to a behavioral question they asked.
 
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The only thing I'd worry about is the way she'd treat you over those two weeks. I was in a highly similar situation and was bullied and guilted even more during my last two weeks. I do think giving notice would be best, and you should give the two weeks if you can. I'd just be ready to get more **** from your boss.
 
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EngrSC said:
What’s the least inflammatory way to leave a toxic work environment? And do you include it on VMCAS?
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There’s not really a non-inflammatory way to leave when you’ve got someone like your current boss at the helm. I know this from experience. The best you can do is give your notice- I don’t think you need to tell her why, frankly- and remain civil during the rest of your time there. If she’s anything like my old boss, she will make that time hell for you, so plan to wear your thickest skin to work every time and let it all roll down your back. I would include the hours on your application regardless but obviously wouldn’t have herfor a reference. This is hardly the first time someone has been in a similar situation and I doubt adcoms are going to think much of it, especially if you’ve got other solid experiences and letters :)
 
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Give your two weeks, based on what you have said with her reactions towards others, I would not be the least bit surprised if she texts you/tells you to just not come back upon receiving said two week notice. If she can't handle someone calling out for one shift and fires them instantly. Giving notice is likely to get you a similar result.
 
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Also, on vmcas there’s a check box that says if they can or cannot contact this experience. Obviously I would check no in this case. It’s unlikely schools would have any reason to contact her about your time there, but I wouldn’t even chance it. You have tons of other good experiences schools can contact if needed.
Don’t let her guilt you into staying or taking more shifts because she sounds like a terrible boss and you don’t need to be put through any more time there than absolutely necessary.
 
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I recently left an extremely toxic work environment after almost 2 years. I included it on VMCAS because it was significant in terms of experience, but I am SO glad that I left. I gave a two weeks notice but never brought up any of the "real" reasons why I was leaving. I blamed it on my schedule (which is also true) and they didn't push for any other explanation.
Only reason I'm piping into this conversation is because I wish someone had urged me to leave way sooner. My wellbeing and overall enjoyment of life have increased exponentially. That job really made me question vet med for a short bit and that's when I knew I needed to get out. Go somewhere where you are treated like a human being at the least-- such places do exist but can be hard to come by sometimes
 
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EngrSC said:
TL;DR, I’m tired of being guilted, yelled at, and having my every move scrutinized. I welcome constructive feedback but this is far from that.
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You have to take care of yourself first and foremost. You can't do your job well when you're in this sort of situation. Take care of yourself first.

There's also the secondary effects too: this employer/clinic is not going to change if people keep tolerating the behavior you describe; if people are capable, they need to leave places like this and let them sink with their poor business practices.
 
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EngrSC said:
I guess I’ve just never been a quitter and I know she’ll talk trash about me to anyone that will listen if I leave.
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I was in an extremely toxic work environment last summer and these were my exact thoughts. I had planned to give 2 weeks notice, but ended up giving 1 day's notice instead because the situation got too bad. It wasn't worth sacrificing my mental health to stay for another two weeks.

If your employer routinely trash talks people, most people will already know she has a poor attitude and won't take her seriously anyways. Don't feel like a quitter for leaving. At the bare minimum, you deserve to be in a workplace where you are treated with respect. There are many other clinics who would be fortunate to have you.
 
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"I can't come in for this shift that I've been scheduled for outside of my normal hours. I have other obligations and I was not consulted about this scheduling change."

If she doesn't like it, she'll fire you and save you having to do another 2 weeks.

I also left a toxic work place, but I gave six weeks notice because I knew how long it would take to hire new people and thought it would be the best way to handle things. It wasn't. Just GTFO as quickly and professionally as possible.

If you were originally only staying through January, can you not just peace out now? "There was some confusion over the schedule, Dr Boss. I only agreed to stay through January but I've been scheduled for additional shifts. I would like to clarify that (last day worked) was my final day, as we previously agreed, and I will not be working past this date."
 
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PrincessButterCup said:
If you were originally only staying through January, can you not just peace out now? "There was some confusion over the schedule, Dr Boss. I only agreed to stay through January but I've been scheduled for additional shifts. I would like to clarify that (last day worked) was my final day, as we previously agreed, and I will not be working past this date."
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(I think the January thing was non-weekend shifts thru January since she was originally only hired to work weekends but they were short handed from someone else leaving)
 
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SkiOtter said:
(I think the January thing was non-weekend shifts thru January since she was originally only hired to work weekends but they were short handed from someone else leaving)
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Ah, reading comprehension. I haz that.
 
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Thank y’all so much for your responses. None of the vets I’ve formerly worked for or shadowed have been psycho maniac so this experience has really thrown me for a loop. It’s crazy how many of us have been through this.

FutureFelineVet said:
Like Skimble said, would give your two weeks notice and not look back. Hopefully you will find a job with a much healthier work environment!

Personally, I was in a very toxic work environment as well. I put the experience on my VMCAS application (applied this cycle and was accepted), because it was vet experience hours. It wasn’t touched on in either of my interviews why I decided to leave that job. I will say that I did end up bringing up the bullying situation I dealt with at that job in one of my interviews because it was relevant to a behavioral question they asked.
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Did you check no on VMCAS where they ask if they can contact this experience? I feel like it’s been discussed before on SDN, I just never paid much attention because I didn’t think I’d be in this situation!
 
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EngrSC said:
Did you check no on VMCAS where they ask if they can contact this experience? I feel like it’s been discussed before on SDN, I just never paid much attention because I didn’t think I’d be in this situation!
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I did not (I left it as yes). I’m not sure if it matters either way—someone else might have a better answer for you. None of my experiences/references were contacted. I don’t think many schools do unless something looks strange (UGA does though, I think?).
 
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EngrSC said:
I guess I’ve just never been a quitter and I know she’ll talk trash about me to anyone that will listen if I leave.

TL;DR, I’m tired of being guilted, yelled at, and having my every move scrutinized. I welcome constructive feedback but this is far from that.
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Leaving a toxic work environment is not quitting/failing/whatever the evil side of your Type-A brain is telling you. It is changing and moving forward to increase your quality of life.

I had the same thought process when I was debating leaving my first lab (and thank goodness I did) and had to remind myself of this constantly. I think it comes from all of our high-achieving personalities that we look upon such things as "quitting" when in reality, they aren't.
 
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vethopeful_2 said:
Only reason I'm piping into this conversation is because I wish someone had urged me to leave way sooner. My wellbeing and overall enjoyment of life have increased exponentially. That job really made me question vet med for a short bit and that's when I knew I needed to get out. Go somewhere where you are treated like a human being at the least-- such places do exist but can be hard to come by sometimes
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This, this this. Every single person I have talked to who has gotten themselves out of an environment like that wishes they had done it sooner, but they were held up by fear of feeling like they were quitting, fear of leaving their colleagues with more work (as mean as it sounds, that is NOT your problem), and sunk cost fallacy.
 
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EngrSC said:
Thank y’all so much for your responses. None of the vets I’ve formerly worked for or shadowed have been psycho maniac so this experience has really thrown me for a loop. It’s crazy how many of us have been through this.

Did you check no on VMCAS where they ask if they can contact this experience? I feel like it’s been discussed before on SDN, I just never paid much attention because I didn’t think I’d be in this situation!
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I would check "no" without hesitation.
 
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EngrSC said:
Thank y’all so much for your responses. None of the vets I’ve formerly worked for or shadowed have been psycho maniac so this experience has really thrown me for a loop. It’s crazy how many of us have been through this.



Did you check no on VMCAS where they ask if they can contact this experience? I feel like it’s been discussed before on SDN, I just never paid much attention because I didn’t think I’d be in this situation!
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I agree with everyone else that you should submit your resignation ASAP. Not that you are under any obligation to provide a reason, but if you're trying to not inflame the situation and she asks then go with the "need to focus on your coursework this semester" etc and just thank her for the experience you gained in this position.

The safe answer for VMCAS is to check the No box for contacting that experience. Maybe someone else can chime in regarding who exactly you are required to list as a contact for an experience? Is it the clinic owner or the vet that you primarily worked under? If it's the vet you primarily worked under AND that vet is not the crazy clinic owner, maybe you list it that way???

As far as UGA goes, some successful applicants have all of their references contacted, some have experiences contacted, and some have no references or experiences contacted. Don't think there is a hard and fast rule for that. My guess is that they would be more likely to contact your references over experiences (unless the experience has a crazy number of hours listed and they want verification or it seems particularly interesting???).

Hope this is resolved quickly for you and best of luck in next year's application cycle!
 
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WhtsThFrequency said:
This, this this. Every single person I have talked to who has gotten themselves out of an environment like that wishes they had done it sooner, but they were held up by fear of feeling like they were quitting, fear of leaving their colleagues with more work (as mean as it sounds, that is NOT your problem), and sunk cost fallacy.
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So much this! It sucks for the people that will have to pick up the slack BUT I try to keep reminding myself that they’re making a conscious decision to stay. And if boss lady wasn’t a lunatic she wouldn’t be perpetually short-staffed.

UGA is my IS so I think I will check the no contact option on VMCAS when I apply this summer. I don’t want all those hours to go to waste but I don’t want to risk her sabotaging me if she were to be called. Even if I was planning to stay I wasn’t going to ask her for an LOR because she’s so hard to read. She’s said positive things about me to others (supposedly) but never to me directly ... though I’m sure that will change once I give my notice.

Thanks everyone! It’s been super helpful hearing from people that have been through this.
 
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