What does it take for DOs to obtain competitive MD residencies (if at all possible)?

[LeBaron33]

I know there are several various threads already related to this topic, but generally speaking none are specific to my current situation and I would really like to hear some input/advice that anyone may have regarding my situation.

I am beginning medical school at MSUCOM (DO) in June (2016). MSUCOM has a great residency match rate, but the majority of these residency matches are in primary care (MSUCOM is ranked #12 in primary care). However, my ultimate goal (and dream) would be to get a competitive MD residency in general surgery (and hopefully a fellowship in Trauma or CT surgery). I will be graduating in 2020, which is when the AOA-ACGME merger of all residency programs must be completed, but I am not sure if this would truly make a difference for me.

Now I know - this is somewhat far off and there are any number of factors that contribute to obtaining a residency (i.e. class rank, USMLE score, research, extracurriculars, etc). When it comes to grades, USMLE scores, etc., I am confident I can do well...but it seems like that may all mean nothing when applying to competitive MD residency programs simply because I would be a DO.

My fear is I will spend four years in medical school, work my butt off making myself a competitive applicant, only to find out that because I am a DO, I will not be able to get into the residency programs I want to.

Side note: I did not take the MCAT because I was part of an undergraduate program that allowed me to apply to MSUCOM without the MCAT. Thus, if I do end up deciding to cancel my enrollment and apply to an MD school, I would have to go through the process of studying for the MCAT (which I should start soon if I am going to apply this cycle).

Update: Thanks everyone for the advice. I'd like to tack on a secondary question for those who can answer. Since my acceptance to MSUCOM was via AACOMAS, would this acceptance be reported to MD schools? Would AMCAS know of this/would I have to mark my acceptance to a DO school on my AMCAS application?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[rokshana]

I know there are several various threads already related to this topic, but generally speaking none are specific to my current situation and I would really like to hear some input/advice that anyone may have regarding my situation.

I am beginning medical school at MSUCOM (DO) in June (2016). MSUCOM has a great residency match rate, but the majority of these residency matches are in primary care (MSUCOM is ranked #12 in primary care). However, my ultimate goal (and dream) would be to get a competitive MD residency in general surgery (and hopefully a fellowship in Trauma or CT surgery). I will be graduating in 2020, which is when the AOA-ACGME merger of all residency programs must be completed, but I am not sure if this would truly make a difference for me.

Now I know - this is somewhat far off and there are any number of factors that contribute to obtaining a residency (i.e. class rank, USMLE score, research, extracurriculars, etc). When it comes to grades, USMLE scores, etc., I am confident I can do well...but it seems like that may all mean nothing when applying to competitive MD residency programs simply because I would be a DO.

My fear is I will spend four years in medical school, work my butt off making myself a competitive applicant, only to find out that because I am a DO, I will not be able to get into the residency programs I want to.

Side note: I did not take the MCAT because I was part of an undergraduate program that allowed me to apply to MSUCOM without the MCAT. Thus, if I do end up deciding to cancel my enrollment and apply to an MD school, I would have to go through the process of studying for the MCAT (which I should start soon if I am going to apply this cycle).

if you want assurance that you will get a ACGME GS residency then you should go to an allopathic school to make that as easy as possible.

take the MCATs and apply to MD schools...

its not to say that you can't get into a ACGME (and by the time you graduate they may very well be all the same) GS program, but it will be more difficult than if you were an allopathic student.

there are of course AOA GS programs as well (again who know what the case may be in 2020).

 

[WedgeDawg]

Moving to pre-osteo

 

[DrMeowMeow]

I know there are several various threads already related to this topic, but generally speaking none are specific to my current situation and I would really like to hear some input/advice that anyone may have regarding my situation.

I am beginning medical school at MSUCOM (DO) in June (2016). MSUCOM has a great residency match rate, but the majority of these residency matches are in primary care (MSUCOM is ranked #12 in primary care). However, my ultimate goal (and dream) would be to get a competitive MD residency in general surgery (and hopefully a fellowship in Trauma or CT surgery). I will be graduating in 2020, which is when the AOA-ACGME merger of all residency programs must be completed, but I am not sure if this would truly make a difference for me.

Now I know - this is somewhat far off and there are any number of factors that contribute to obtaining a residency (i.e. class rank, USMLE score, research, extracurriculars, etc). When it comes to grades, USMLE scores, etc., I am confident I can do well...but it seems like that may all mean nothing when applying to competitive MD residency programs simply because I would be a DO.

My fear is I will spend four years in medical school, work my butt off making myself a competitive applicant, only to find out that because I am a DO, I will not be able to get into the residency programs I want to.

Side note: I did not take the MCAT because I was part of an undergraduate program that allowed me to apply to MSUCOM without the MCAT. Thus, if I do end up deciding to cancel my enrollment and apply to an MD school, I would have to go through the process of studying for the MCAT (which I should start soon if I am going to apply this cycle).

I am a 4th year DO students. I don't know the answer to your question for sure, but I could provide some anecdotes that I've seen from my classmates that may be helpful?

The majority of my peers are going through the DO match, and a bunch of them who are doing surgical specialties are pursuing DO residencies. For DO residencies, they care a lot more about your character of working hard and being able to get along well with others more than MD residencies. As long as your COMLEX scores were above average, the general surgery residencies would base whether they wanted you or not on how you performed on their rotation for a month. (Ortho does require really high COMLEX scores too just because of how competitive that field is right now). I'm not sure if you are okay with doing a DO residency since the DO and MD residencies will technically be merged by the time you apply, but after the merger, I believe the DO residencies will still use a similar approach to recruiting candidates and still prefer DOs. If you are cool with doing a general surgery residency at a program that is originally DO then you should be totally fine.

I know of a student from LECOM who was pursuing Ortho through the MD Match and she had a USMLE score of either 240 or 250? I don't know how it ended up for her, but she seemed like a smart girl who probably did her research on her chances of getting an ortho residency as a DO.

I know of another DO student who had high USMLE scores, an overall kickass application (lots of extracurriculars, volunteering, research, awesome grades) who applied to like 50 MD anesthesiology programs. She ended up getting 15+ interviews.

My school gave us a lecture on the Match and did recommend that if we wanted to do surgery, our chances were way higher in the DO match over the MD match. They showed us a statistic that only 1 DO matched into an MD ortho residency that year. I think ortho is much more competitive than general surgery, and Anesthesiology seems like a pretty competitive field and the DO student I know of will certainly get into an MD program with her 15 interviews.

I think your chances highly depend on your USMLE scores. If you score higher than an MD student, the program should certainly favor you right?

You should also keep an open mind. Of course there are people who want a certain specialty on day 1, and really are going into that specialty, but I've seen lots and lots of classmates change their minds throughout medical school. On the first day, a lot people people wanted to do general surgery, ortho, radiology, etc. Right now, a bunch of those people changed to family medicine. There have also been people who wanted to do primary care at first, and are now pursuing general surgery.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Work your butt off and have a little bit of luck. Around 40-50 DOs match ACGME General surgery every year. It is doable, just don't be expecting to match at MGH or Hopkins. Every MD surgeon that I know has said that a DO with above a 230 USMLE has a chance to match, given a solid app. By the time you go through the match all surgical programs will be ACGME so you can rank any program you want to go to. I'm assuming the former AOA programs will still like audition rotations.

Integrated CT programs are very competative and probably unlikely as a DO unless you are an absolute rockstar

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I know there are several various threads already related to this topic, but generally speaking none are specific to my current situation and I would really like to hear some input/advice that anyone may have regarding my situation.

I am beginning medical school at MSUCOM (DO) in June (2016). MSUCOM has a great residency match rate, but the majority of these residency matches are in primary care (MSUCOM is ranked #12 in primary care). However, my ultimate goal (and dream) would be to get a competitive MD residency in general surgery (and hopefully a fellowship in Trauma or CT surgery). I will be graduating in 2020, which is when the AOA-ACGME merger of all residency programs must be completed, but I am not sure if this would truly make a difference for me.

Now I know - this is somewhat far off and there are any number of factors that contribute to obtaining a residency (i.e. class rank, USMLE score, research, extracurriculars, etc). When it comes to grades, USMLE scores, etc., I am confident I can do well...but it seems like that may all mean nothing when applying to competitive MD residency programs simply because I would be a DO.

My fear is I will spend four years in medical school, work my butt off making myself a competitive applicant, only to find out that because I am a DO, I will not be able to get into the residency programs I want to.

Side note: I did not take the MCAT because I was part of an undergraduate program that allowed me to apply to MSUCOM without the MCAT. Thus, if I do end up deciding to cancel my enrollment and apply to an MD school, I would have to go through the process of studying for the MCAT (which I should start soon if I am going to apply this cycle).

50% of acgme general surgery programs will interview DOs. Its a bit tough to get but if you do well its possible. It might be harder then you think to do this well in medical school. Becoming a surgeon is certainly possible. Do well in medical school and you will have options.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Plus MSU has a lot of competitive residencies themselves, so you may even be able to match in your alma mater also. This is one of the best DO schools to be in if you want something competitive.

 

[Medschoolornah]

I was under the impression DOs have a good shot at MD gen surg without having to be rockstars necessarily

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I was under the impression DOs have a good shot at MD gen surg without having to be rockstars necessarily

You don't have to be a rockstar but you can't have deficits in your app. You have to be solid. This is my understanding

 

[IslandStyle808]

I was under the impression DOs have a good shot at MD gen surg without having to be rockstars necessarily

They have a decent shot at it (still an uphill battle), but it is more difficult to match into university programs. Most match lists I have seen were mainly community hospitals.

 

[j4pac]

I was under the impression DOs have a good shot at MD gen surg without having to be rockstars necessarily

CT Surgery is a different ball game. MD Gen Surg is obtainable for mere mortals...not MD CT surgery. You have to get an elite Surgery resident to get those types of Fellowships, and usually they come from well established, top notch GS residency programs. The OP has to prepare to be top 3% in his/her class, get publications/research, strong LORs, strong audition, and elite board scores. In other words, he/she has to be the Sean Connery of medicine to have a real chance a MD CT Surgery.

 

[cliquesh]

In 2015 there were approximately 5500 osteopathic graduates.

In the 2015 acgme residency match, 36 osteopathic students matched acgme general surgery and 2 matched thoractic surgery.

In the 2015 acgme fellowship match, 5 DOs matched thoractic surgery. There were 87 spots offered.

 

[cliquesh]

I am a 4th year DO students. I don't know the answer to your question for sure, but I could provide some anecdotes that I've seen from my classmates that may be helpful?

The majority of my peers are going through the DO match, and a bunch of them who are doing surgical specialties are pursuing DO residencies. For DO residencies, they care a lot more about your character of working hard and being able to get along well with others more than MD residencies. As long as your COMLEX scores were above average, the general surgery residencies would base whether they wanted you or not on how you performed on their rotation for a month. (Ortho does require really high COMLEX scores too just because of how competitive that field is right now). I'm not sure if you are okay with doing a DO residency since the DO and MD residencies will technically be merged by the time you apply, but after the merger, I believe the DO residencies will still use a similar approach to recruiting candidates and still prefer DOs. If you are cool with doing a general surgery residency at a program that is originally DO then you should be totally fine.

I know of a student from LECOM who was pursuing Ortho through the MD Match and she had a USMLE score of either 240 or 250? I don't know how it ended up for her, but she seemed like a smart girl who probably did her research on her chances of getting an ortho residency as a DO.

I know of another DO student who had high USMLE scores, an overall kickass application (lots of extracurriculars, volunteering, research, awesome grades) who applied to like 50 MD anesthesiology programs. She ended up getting 15+ interviews.

My school gave us a lecture on the Match and did recommend that if we wanted to do surgery, our chances were way higher in the DO match over the MD match. They showed us a statistic that only 1 DO matched into an MD ortho residency that year. I think ortho is much more competitive than general surgery, and Anesthesiology seems like a pretty competitive field and the DO student I know of will certainly get into an MD program with her 15 interviews.

I think your chances highly depend on your USMLE scores. If you score higher than an MD student, the program should certainly favor you right?

You should also keep an open mind. Of course there are people who want a certain specialty on day 1, and really are going into that specialty, but I've seen lots and lots of classmates change their minds throughout medical school. On the first day, a lot people people wanted to do general surgery, ortho, radiology, etc. Right now, a bunch of those people changed to family medicine. There have also been people who wanted to do primary care at first, and are now pursuing general surgery.

This is unfortunately not the case. I applied for anesthesia. I had a 250+ usmle. My USMD friends with scores in the 230s had better invites than me. Being a USMD is a big advantage.

 

[Medschoolornah]

CT Surgery is a different ball game. MD Gen Surg is obtainable for mere mortals...not MD CT surgery. You have to get an elite Surgery resident to get those types of Fellowships, and usually they come from well established, top notch GS residency programs. The OP has to prepare to be top 3% in his/her class, get publications/research, strong LORs, strong audition, and elite board scores. In other words, he/she has to be the Sean Connery of medicine to have a real chance a MD CT Surgery.

As long as we are playing this game, how about Surg Onc or Peds fellowship.


I'm assuming very similar difficulty?

 

[rokshana]

As long as we are playing this game, how about Surg Onc or Peds fellowship.


I'm assuming very similar difficulty?

peds surgery is one of the most competitive fellowships for surgery...there are < 100 spots so very difficult to get as an USMD applicant much as anything else.

 

[cliquesh]

As long as we are playing this game, how about Surg Onc or Peds fellowship.


I'm assuming very similar difficulty?

Pediatric surgery is very hard for DOs. I think only 1 has matched in recent years. It's not realistic at all.

I am not sure about surg onc. 0 DOs matched last year.

 

[FutureD.O]

I know there are several various threads already related to this topic, but generally speaking none are specific to my current situation and I would really like to hear some input/advice that anyone may have regarding my situation.

I am beginning medical school at MSUCOM (DO) in June (2016). MSUCOM has a great residency match rate, but the majority of these residency matches are in primary care (MSUCOM is ranked #12 in primary care). However, my ultimate goal (and dream) would be to get a competitive MD residency in general surgery (and hopefully a fellowship in Trauma or CT surgery). I will be graduating in 2020, which is when the AOA-ACGME merger of all residency programs must be completed, but I am not sure if this would truly make a difference for me.

Now I know - this is somewhat far off and there are any number of factors that contribute to obtaining a residency (i.e. class rank, USMLE score, research, extracurriculars, etc). When it comes to grades, USMLE scores, etc., I am confident I can do well...but it seems like that may all mean nothing when applying to competitive MD residency programs simply because I would be a DO.

My fear is I will spend four years in medical school, work my butt off making myself a competitive applicant, only to find out that because I am a DO, I will not be able to get into the residency programs I want to.

Side note: I did not take the MCAT because I was part of an undergraduate program that allowed me to apply to MSUCOM without the MCAT. Thus, if I do end up deciding to cancel my enrollment and apply to an MD school, I would have to go through the process of studying for the MCAT (which I should start soon if I am going to apply this cycle).

If it makes you feel any better, my eldest brothers friend is a neurosurgery resident that graduated from MSUCOM.

 

[DrMikeP]

Specialty areas in surgery are extremely highly competitive in general for even MD's. Most MD's won't even make it. So being a DO and competing for such surgery positions means you absolutely have to have huge strengths in other areas and be a very MD looking DO (research, publications, etc that others mention) and a rich parent making a big donation helps. Knowing the right people also helps, which is more difficult as a DO because of limits in opportunities. I do know of a DO neurosurgeon, so it is possible just extremely extremely rare and an uphill battle.

Think of it like trying to get into med school and have a 495 MCAT. All other areas in your application must be phenomenally way above other applicants to even have tiny a shot. Will some do it? Yes, so that makes it possible. But the vast majority won't.

If you want a highly competitive surgical specialty then you need to start working on being a stellar applicant through undergrad on and take the easiest route when ever absolutely possible, which is MD at a medical school known for producing people who make it into that specialty. It may not be right, but it is what it is.

Best of Luck

 

[darknecrosforte]

100 pushups, 100 sit ups, and 100 km run every day.

 

[Henry101]

I know of a student from LECOM who was pursuing Ortho through the MD Match and she had a USMLE score of either 240 or 250? I don't know how it ended up for her, but she seemed like a smart girl who probably did her research on her chances of getting an ortho residency as a DO.

I remember 2 different students during my LECOM interview that mentioned her during lunch. Apparently she's a wicked genius that spent a year off to do research at Cornell and has had several publications in top line orthopedic journals. The students mentioned it as one of the benefits of the cheap tuition that affords the opportunity to take these breaks and research. Yes, I also heard she had a USMLE of 240+ and was gunning for Ivy League programs. Apparently she's a legend at Bradenton.

 

[Medschoolornah]

I remember 2 different students during my LECOM interview that mentioned her during lunch. Apparently she's a wicked genius that spent a year off to do research at Cornell and has had several publications in top line orthopedic journals. The students mentioned it as one of the benefits of the cheap tuition that affords the opportunity to take these breaks and research. Yes, I also heard she had a USMLE of 240+ and was gunning for Ivy League programs. Apparently she's a legend at Bradenton.

so it is very fair to say as a non-supersayain it is not wise to EXPECT these acgme residencies. not to say u shouldn't try, but definitely be realistic about your options

 

[DrMeowMeow]

This is unfortunately not the case. I applied for anesthesia. I had a 250+ usmle. My USMD friends with scores in the 230s had better invites than me. Being a USMD is a big advantage.

I'm sure that's true if your applications are otherwise similar. This girl had a huuuuge laundry list of genius stuff on her application though. She was a superstar!!

 

[235009]

Side note: I did not take the MCAT because I was part of an undergraduate program that allowed me to apply to MSUCOM without the MCAT. Thus, if I do end up deciding to cancel my enrollment and apply to an MD school, I would have to go through the process of studying for the MCAT (which I should start soon if I am going to apply this cycle).

This fast track program to MSU sounds like a scam. You should not go to a DO school unless you have at least attempted to get into a US MD school! Sure if you don't have the stats for MD then going through this program or apply to DO only is reasonable but you haven't even tried! Stop trying to take the easy way out. Start studying for the MCAT and take a couple of practice tests to see where you stand. If you are doing well apply to MD schools. DO schools will still be an available option in the future. Ideally you would have an MCAT score in hand by the time you have to decide whether or not to forfeit your spot at MSU. I really hope you have time to sort this out and don't have to make a decision ASAP without an MCAT score.

Bottom line is that your effort will be rewarded more if you are a US MD graduate. If you end up wanting to do surgery many programs (sounds like half or more based on what someone posted earlier) won't even consider your application for residency simply because you're a DO. The same goes for top-tier programs in almost all fields (the exceptions being PM&R, anesthesia, FM, psych). Those programs that will look at your app will routinely pick the US MD with lower stats. This happens in almost all fields and not just at the "top tier" programs. In my field (IM) you'll find that the DOs at low-tier academic programs have stats that would've landed them in a mid- or top-tier program had they graduated from a US MD school.

 

[Goro]

This an excellent question!

Of my students who have landed in competitive ACGME residencies, (several of whom have cracked open the door to formerly MD only or vastly MD dominant programs), they have in common:

Top 10% of their class
Top 10% of COMLEX
They took USMLE. We don't get data on USMLE performance, but based upon NBME shelf exams, out top students do well on these and thus, we surmise that they did well on USMLE.
They "worked very hard" (in the words of one student) in rotations, especially in their audition rotations.
The Clinical deans tell me that their LORs were outstanding.

So one of these days, one of them will end up in the IM program at NYU.

And just subjectively, not only were these top students academically, but they also were great people. Maybe this is just confirmation bias, but granted, we've had high performing students who were disagreeable, but they seem to not end up in competitive specialties.

Also keep in mind that the definition of a "top program" is very hard to pin down unless you have an expert (like a resident or attending in that field) telling you exactly what "top" is. But I've asked people in the know, and so I know that the students I'm referring to did indeed land high.

I know there are several various threads already related to this topic, but generally speaking none are specific to my current situation and I would really like to hear some input/advice that anyone may have regarding my situation.

I am beginning medical school at MSUCOM (DO) in June (2016). MSUCOM has a great residency match rate, but the majority of these residency matches are in primary care (MSUCOM is ranked #12 in primary care). However, my ultimate goal (and dream) would be to get a competitive MD residency in general surgery (and hopefully a fellowship in Trauma or CT surgery). I will be graduating in 2020, which is when the AOA-ACGME merger of all residency programs must be completed, but I am not sure if this would truly make a difference for me.

Now I know - this is somewhat far off and there are any number of factors that contribute to obtaining a residency (i.e. class rank, USMLE score, research, extracurriculars, etc). When it comes to grades, USMLE scores, etc., I am confident I can do well...but it seems like that may all mean nothing when applying to competitive MD residency programs simply because I would be a DO.

My fear is I will spend four years in medical school, work my butt off making myself a competitive applicant, only to find out that because I am a DO, I will not be able to get into the residency programs I want to.

Side note: I did not take the MCAT because I was part of an undergraduate program that allowed me to apply to MSUCOM without the MCAT. Thus, if I do end up deciding to cancel my enrollment and apply to an MD school, I would have to go through the process of studying for the MCAT (which I should start soon if I am going to apply this cycle).

 

[LeBaron33]

This fast track program to MSU sounds like a scam. You should not go to a DO school unless you have at least attempted to get into a US MD school! Sure if you don't have the stats for MD then going through this program or apply to DO only is reasonable but you haven't even tried! Stop trying to take the easy way out. Start studying for the MCAT and take a couple of practice tests to see where you stand. If you are doing well apply to MD schools. DO schools will still be an available option in the future. Ideally you would have an MCAT score in hand by the time you have to decide whether or not to forfeit your spot at MSU. I really hope you have time to sort this out and don't have to make a decision ASAP without an MCAT score.

Bottom line is that your effort will be rewarded more if you are a US MD graduate. If you end up wanting to do surgery many programs (sounds like half or more based on what someone posted earlier) won't even consider your application for residency simply because you're a DO. The same goes for top-tier programs in almost all fields (the exceptions being PM&R, anesthesia, FM, psych). Those programs that will look at your app will routinely pick the US MD with lower stats. This happens in almost all fields and not just at the "top tier" programs. In my field (IM) you'll find that the DOs at low-tier academic programs have stats that would've landed them in a mid- or top-tier program had they graduated from a US MD school.

While it is not a scam, I can understand where you are coming from. The truth is my grades, extracurriculars, research, etc right now would be enough to build a strong application for applying to MD schools. Obviously the caveat is taking the MCAT. Additionally, I am concerned I would have to check "Yes" on the AMCAS application question "have you ever been accepted to medical school" (or something along those lines), which I am unsure if I would have to answer "yes" to yet. I am by no means trying to take the easy way out, at the time of applying I just believed this was the best option before I had done real research on residencies and what not. Thanks for your input though, I definitely understand what you mean.

 

[hallowmann]

While it is not a scam, I can understand where you are coming from. The truth is my grades, extracurriculars, research, etc right now would be enough to build a strong application for applying to MD schools. Obviously the caveat is taking the MCAT. Additionally, I am concerned I would have to check "Yes" on the AMCAS application question "have you ever been accepted to medical school" (or something along those lines), which I am unsure if I would have to answer "yes" to yet. I am by no means trying to take the easy way out, at the time of applying I just believed this was the best option before I had done real research on residencies and what not. Thanks for your input though, I definitely understand what you mean.

You should take the MCAT and see where you stand with US MD schools. As for answering yes, most places ask if you have ever matriculated/registered at a medical school in the past, not if you've ever been accepted. I don't remember having to answer this on my AMCAS, but I do remember the question about matriculating at a medical school. Its possible things have changed, but I would really check that out. You might be worrying for no reason.

 

[22031 Alum]

The truth is my grades, extracurriculars, research, etc right now would be enough to build a strong application for applying to MD schools. Obviously the caveat is taking the MCAT.

I'd urge you to think long and hard about purposely limiting your opportunities, just to avoid the MCAT- just the first of many high-stakes standardized tests you'll have to take. Especially since you already have "competitive" residencies on the brain.

 

[Mavs88]

Take the MCAT between now and matriculation...maybe April? If you score higher than 510, and the rest is as strong as you say, there's a good likelihood you'd get in somewhere for MD. However, don't underestimate the peace of mind of having an acceptance in hand. Also helps that your DO acceptance is at a public state school.

 

[TheBoneDoctah]

When I was volunteering at a children's hospital, one of the CT surgeons was a D.O. from KCUMB.

Yes, it can be done. Will it? Prolly not.