Why do some go from PharmD to MD/DO?

[pharm B]

The ideal situation would be utilizing your knowledge of pharmacy while working as a physician. You'd never be able to write a prescription and self-dispense, though.

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[kvl1027]

Because they feel like it. The same reason people do just about anything. Personally, I'd rather stab myself in the eye with 23 years worth of Rosanne Barr's bloody tampon drippings frozen into the shape of a razor sharp 10 ft sword than go to school for another 7 years, even if it would mean I could be a super-magical "Practitioner" with the ability to write words down on a piece of paper that can be exchanged for specific goods and services, but to each his own.

I have not yet read the 150 posts that are now on this thread, but I felt the overwhelming urger to post regarding one of the funniest things I have read in this forum. I only wish that one day I will achieve the same sarcastic prowess that you have demonstrated in your response. Brilliant!

 

[AcclratngCharge]

Is there any health care setting where you can actually apply both the MD and the PharmD? What kind of field can you go into that will allow you to apply both fields of knowledge?

You could apply your pharmacy knowledge (eg helping the pt understand how to use a complicated dosage form), but officially, as in billing, probably not. But it seems that the more professional acronyms after your name the more competitive you are for any job or position like a residency. Ones with D's are especially helpful, PharmD, JD, MD, etc.

 

[karizma098]

i haven't read a lot of this thread ( kinda long ) , but to answer the original poster - a lot of people go through pharm school and realize it's not what they want to do - same as med school, dental school, PA school, etc. A good friend of mine completed the college / pharm school route in 6 years, decided he wanted to do medicine, went to med school, and was in residency at the age of 28 ; which isn't that far behind other residents. He's an anesthesiologist now - and though i might get flamed for this, he's making 4X what he would be as a pharmacist...so given the extra 8 years he had to invest were rough, it's also financially rewarding..

 

[elizpharmd]

I'm also a PharmD and finishing up my 1st year in medical school. I have to say that as hard as pharmacy school seemed, medical school is even harder. Not content wise but the speed of information thrown to you. Point is, make sure going to medical school will really make you happy. Even though MD's will make more than pharmacists later on, I basically took a $100K paycut to borrow more federal loans for 4 years. Hmmm....
I think i'm lucky that I got my pharmd in six years. Otherwise I don't think I would have went back to school. Not that you can't. The average matriculant is 24-25 in med school and many of my classmates are older than 26 when they started.
Also, the previous poster is correct, a PharmD from my experience will not help you immensely in getting into medical school. There is no way the adcom will accept a pharmd over a BS student if the latter student has a better GPA/MCAT. I think the pharmd will help if two candidates are equal, then the degree will boost the credentials. Sorry for the long post. BTW.. anyone interested in going from pharmd to MD/DO, i'll be willing to give some advice. PM me.

hi.. i am elizabeth from india.. i am a doing my pharm.D (post baccalaureate) and am in my final year..its when my final year/intership started that realized that i cannot put up with the fact that i would only be a pharmacist and no where near an MD or doctor.. its actually depressing cos even i wanted to be a doctor.. i am 27.. but i was thinking better do wat i desired so much than die unsatisfied.. if u have any idea on colleges or universities offering Pharm.D to MD admissions please do revert..

 

[eagles22]

hi.. i am elizabeth from india.. i am a doing my pharm.D (post baccalaureate) and am in my final year..its when my final year/intership started that realized that i cannot put up with the fact that i would only be a pharmacist and no where near an MD or doctor.. its actually depressing cos even i wanted to be a doctor.. i am 27.. but i was thinking better do wat i desired so much than die unsatisfied.. if u have any idea on colleges or universities offering Pharm.D to MD admissions please do revert..

No med school in the US admits a student just because she/he has a Pharm.D. or recruits people because they have Pharm.D.s. I've been asked by several students from India about this so I think there's some substantial differences in our post secondary educational systems. You can apply to any school assuming you meet the entry requirements. You will start from the beginning again and be given no advanced standing for having the Pharm.D.

 

[PharMed2016]

No med school in the US admits a student just because she/he has a Pharm.D. or recruits people because they have Pharm.D.s. I've been asked by several students from India about this so I think there's some substantial differences in our post secondary educational systems. You can apply to any school assuming you meet the entry requirements. You will start from the beginning again and be given no advanced standing for having the Pharm.D.

Part of the reason is the strict requirements by the LCME to maintain certain standards for courses in the medical school. Its unfortunate but true. However the bright side is that if your coursework was indeed more in depth then its potentially going to be an easy ace which will look good on your transcript when you finally apply to residency.

To tell you the truth... the PharmD I felt hindered more than helped for admission into medical school. However, I feel that ultimately when I do apply to residency I will be more competitive than my counterparts applying for the same residency slot. This will especially be important given the cut in GME funding due to the super committee's inaction. Pharmacy residencies are not affected for those that may be wondering.

 

[desklamp]

Part of the reason is the strict requirements by the LCME to maintain certain standards for courses in the medical school. Its unfortunate but true. However the bright side is that if your coursework was indeed more in depth then its potentially going to be an easy ace which will look good on your transcript when you finally apply to residency.

To tell you the truth... the PharmD I felt hindered more than helped for admission into medical school. However, I feel that ultimately when I do apply to residency I will be more competitive than my counterparts applying for the same residency slot. This will especially be important given the cut in GME funding due to the super committee's inaction. Pharmacy residencies are not affected for those that may be wondering.

Can you elaborate on this a bit? Like how you felt the PharmD hindered your admission? I'm looking to app to med school in my third year and have heard things like "Oh it makes you look wishy washy" but also that the advanced degree is looked favorably upon.

Just wondering what I should be expecting from interviewers and adcom if I even get an interview, or what should be addressed in the PS.

Would it help that I was pre-med from the start and that pharmacy was never my first choice?

Thanks

 

[eagles22]

Can you elaborate on this a bit? Like how you felt the PharmD hindered your admission? I'm looking to app to med school in my third year and have heard things like "Oh it makes you look wishy washy" but also that the advanced degree is looked favorably upon.

Just wondering what I should be expecting from interviewers and adcom if I even get an interview, or what should be addressed in the PS.

Would it help that I was pre-med from the start and that pharmacy was never my first choice?

Thanks

I dropped out of pharm 2nd year to go to med school. They will certainly ask you why you want to switch, so you better have a good answer about that. If you answer truthfully and have a decent reason, no one is going to judge you for it. Definitely say why you want to change in your PS.

I don't think it hinders an applicant since the knowledge from pharmacy school can only make you a better doctor. I think the idea that it hinders you is made and just perpetuated on this forum.

 

[desklamp]

I dropped out of pharm 2nd year to go to med school. They will certainly ask you why you want to switch, so you better have a good answer about that. If you answer truthfully and have a decent reason, no one is going to judge you for it. Definitely say why you want to change in your PS.

I don't think it hinders an applicant since the knowledge from pharmacy school can only make you a better doctor. I think the idea that it hinders you is made and just perpetuated on this forum.

I wish I had the guts to drop out Did your pharm school get upset? I'm worried I am going to get blacklisted or something if I apply to the medical school at the same university.

Also how did you manage the interviews? Did you leave pharmacy school first and then apply? Or did you app while in pharmacy school and just take days off to go to interviews? Thanks!

 

[PharMed2016]

Can you elaborate on this a bit? Like how you felt the PharmD hindered your admission? I'm looking to app to med school in my third year and have heard things like "Oh it makes you look wishy washy" but also that the advanced degree is looked favorably upon.

Just wondering what I should be expecting from interviewers and adcom if I even get an interview, or what should be addressed in the PS.

Would it help that I was pre-med from the start and that pharmacy was never my first choice?

Thanks

Your PS should address why you want to ultimately become a doctor while answering why pharmacy isn't a good fit for you. That was a hard question because you want to tell it as is without saying negative things which may be the very reason you've decided that pharmacy isn't the right. Well that is at least my opinion on the subject.

I don't know if saying pharmacy was never your first choice is the right answer but it may very well be depending on who is interviewing you.

===================

Now why do I feel it hindered me?

Well it is not a traditional bachelors which many medical schools require. So it doesn't fit nicely and quite a few schools place an emphasis on having that before they allow you to even get looked at for admission. Additionally, there are a few schools that while accepting actually want you to work a few years before applying so that you "really" know its not right for you. Lastly, I feel there are certain expectations and preconceptions that individuals may have regarding the degree which may impact their decision making. Being from a healthcare background, you better be somewhat more knowledgeable than your standard medical student.

***In my own opinion, I think the PharmD will ultimately make me a better doctor because not only will I have a baseline knowledge of medicine but also the training to be able to look at statistical literature which is applicable to beyond just medications.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I dropped out of pharm 2nd year to go to med school. They will certainly ask you why you want to switch, so you better have a good answer about that. If you answer truthfully and have a decent reason, no one is going to judge you for it. Definitely say why you want to change in your PS.

I don't think it hinders an applicant since the knowledge from pharmacy school can only make you a better doctor. I think the idea that it hinders you is made and just perpetuated on this forum.

I disagree with this point. Med school admissions will want to make sure that you won't drop out of medicine like you did pharmacy. Like you said, if its a good reason then it shouldn't be a problem but you'd better make sure you can answer that question.

 

[owlegrad]

I disagree with this point. Med school admissions will want to make sure that you won't drop out of medicine like you did pharmacy. Like you said, if its a good reason then it shouldn't be a problem but you'd better make sure you can answer that question.

To be fair, anyone who responds on here that they disagree with eagles22 (by definition) is a member of this forum that is perpetuating the myth, so he automatically wins.

 

[eagles22]

To be fair, anyone who responds on here that they disagree with eagles22 (by definition) is a member of this forum that is perpetuating the myth, so he automatically wins.

In my interviews I was never asked any questions that even remotely hinted that they were sizing me up to see if I would drop out of medical school. And logically, if you put in the time in pharm school and drop out to go to medical school, you've invested so much money and time that you're not going to drop out of a second program. Most pharm student who apply to med school have good pharm grades and MCAT scores, so the schools know you're academically qualified, so you likely won't drop out due to the rigor of the classes. That's why I think the concern that this group of students would leave again is overstated. Of course, n=1.

 

[owlegrad]

In my interviews I was never asked any questions that even remotely hinted that they were sizing me up to see if I would drop out of medical school. And logically, if you put in the time in pharm school and drop out to go to medical school, you've invested so much money and time that you're not going to drop out of a second program. Most pharm student who apply to med school have good pharm grades and MCAT scores, so the schools know you're academically qualified, so you likely won't drop out due to the rigor of the classes. That's why I think the concern that this group of students would leave again is overstated. Of course, n=1.

I suspect you are correct. I know an upperclassman applying to med school and we have people on this board who switched from dental school to pharm school, so it is not unheard of to do something like that.

I would be skeptical if I were on an admissions committee but I ain't so there you go.

 

[QofQuimica]

People go back to school for many reasons, not the least of which is that the grass is always greener on the other side. Being a doctor seems glamorous compared to most other jobs out there. Who wouldn't want to save lives like a hero and earn a six figure salary to boot?

Personally, if I could do it all over again, I'd have gone to pharmacy school instead of med school. It's the pharm and biochem that I love, not "the human body." My best friend from grad school is a PharmD/PhD, and that's what I should have done as well. That being said, I don't hate medicine either. Fortunately, I enjoy patient care, and I found a subspecialty that I love. It's just too bad that I have to do three extra years of residency first. But at this point in my life, I'm not going back to school for a third professional degree, even if they'd let me in.

 

[PharMed2016]

People go back to school for many reasons, not the least of which is that the grass is always greener on the other side. Being a doctor seems glamorous compared to most other jobs out there. Who wouldn't want to save lives like a hero and earn a six figure salary to boot?

Personally, if I could do it all over again, I'd have gone to pharmacy school instead of med school. It's the pharm and biochem that I love, not "the human body." My best friend from grad school is a PharmD/PhD, and that's what I should have done as well. That being said, I don't hate medicine either. Fortunately, I enjoy patient care, and I found a subspecialty that I love. It's just too bad that I have to do three extra years of residency first. But at this point in my life, I'm not going back to school for a third professional degree, even if they'd let me in.

If I hadn't gotten into medical school either this year or next - I probably would've done what your friend did and got my PharmD/PhD or PharmD/MPH. However, I did so its a mute point. The cost benefit from my perspective of going MD/PhD isn't worth after having obtained a professional degree. I would be adding 2-3 years on top of the 4 years MD which equates to 2-3 years of lost income. Additionally, a PhD isn't necessary to conduct research (although it certainly helps).

With that being said - my pharmacy practice adviser strongly suggested that I get an MPH while in medical school. I do have an interest in epidemiology and clinical trials but not more than applying my knowledge in a clinical setting - forming relationships with patients. MPH = one additional year of school and not pertinent to my current interest. But who knows what the future may really bring.

 

[QofQuimica]

It would be pretty unusual for you to get into an MD/PhD program after your PharmD. These programs tend not to be the most nontrad-friendly anyway, and a previous non-research professional degree wouldn't do wonders to bolster your app.

Not that it matters, since, as you said, you already have your med school acceptance. (Congrats, btw.) I do want to suggest to you though that if you're looking for clinical research training, you might want to consider a clinical research MS rather than an MPH. There is some overlap, but the MS is geared toward med students and physicians who want to be clinician-scientists. Several med schools have clinical research training program grants for this purpose; maybe your school is one of them.

 

[quantumleap]

It would be pretty unusual for you to get into an MD/PhD program after your PharmD. These programs tend not to be the most nontrad-friendly anyway, and a previous non-research professional degree wouldn't do wonders to bolster your app.

Not that it matters, since, as you said, you already have your med school acceptance. (Congrats, btw.) I do want to suggest to you though that if you're looking for clinical research training, you might want to consider a clinical research MS rather than an MPH. There is some overlap, but the MS is geared toward med students and physicians who want to be clinician-scientists. Several med schools have clinical research training program grants for this purpose; maybe your school is one of them.

What does your friend plan to do with his Pharmd/PhD?

 

[QofQuimica]

What does your friend plan to do with his Pharmd/PhD?

We graduated with our PhDs 5.5 years ago. First, he did a one year internship at a commercial pharmacy and took all of his boards. Then he worked for a year or so as a research pharmacist in industry until the company laid him off. For the past few yrs, he has been a research pharmacist at a university, which he loves. He was considering doing a residency, though I don't know how likely that is to happen now that he and his wife have a baby.

 

[PharMed2016]

We graduated with our PhDs 5.5 years ago. First, he did a one year internship at a commercial pharmacy and took all of his boards. Then he worked for a year or so as a research pharmacist in industry until the company laid him off. For the past few yrs, he has been a research pharmacist at a university, which he loves. He was considering doing a residency, though I don't know how likely that is to happen now that he and his wife have a baby.

Congrats to him. Man... I'm starting to feel old now...

 

[QofQuimica]

Congrats to him. Man... I'm starting to feel old now...

Good grief. According to your mdapps, you're all of 23. You're so young that you can't even appreciate how young you are.

 

[a runner]

In my interviews I was never asked any questions that even remotely hinted that they were sizing me up to see if I would drop out of medical school. And logically, if you put in the time in pharm school and drop out to go to medical school, you've invested so much money and time that you're not going to drop out of a second program. Most pharm student who apply to med school have good pharm grades and MCAT scores, so the schools know you're academically qualified, so you likely won't drop out due to the rigor of the classes. That's why I think the concern that this group of students would leave again is overstated. Of course, n=1.

I've only gone to one of my interviews so far, but this is how I felt too. I don't think it hindered me at all, and I got the impression that it boosted my interviewers' opinion of my academic ability. Yes, they did ask why I want to be a physician, but as long as you give a satisfactory answer that is honest and shows your passion, then they move on. Besides, they're going to want to know this no matter who you are or what your background is.

 

[a runner]

I wish I had the guts to drop out Did your pharm school get upset? I'm worried I am going to get blacklisted or something if I apply to the medical school at the same university.

Also how did you manage the interviews? Did you leave pharmacy school first and then apply? Or did you app while in pharmacy school and just take days off to go to interviews? Thanks!

I haven't advertised the fact that I'm applying to medical school, but the few faculty members I have told have been very supportive. In fact, one of them even wrote me a letter of recommendation. I haven't told any of my friends or classmates. I wouldn't worry about your pharmacy school getting upset, just don't tell anyone who doesn't absolutely need to know (especially classmates) until you get accepted. This is in case you don't get accepted, then it could potentially hurt your pharmacy future and reputation. As for applying to the medical school at the same university as your pharmacy school, every school is different and it depends how interconnected the colleges and admissions people are. For most schools, especially large public ones, this shouldn't be an issue.

As for interviews, I made sure to schedule them (so far) on days that I could safely miss school. I would strongly discourage dropping out of pharmacy school unless you absolutely hate it and would drop out anyway even if you weren't applying to med school. I like pharmacy and would be more than happy to stay here if I don't get accepted to medical school. It is very difficult to be applying, getting your ducks in a row, writing countless essays, shadowing, stressing, and interviewing while in a program that is already pretty demanding, so I recommend doing everything you can during the summer. I didn't start most of the process until the start of the fall semester and wish I had been finished by then.

 

[PharMed2016]

Good grief. According to your mdapps, you're all of 23. You're so young that you can't even appreciate how young you are.

All my friends are settling down and having families now.

 

[pfaction]

It would be pretty unusual for you to get into an MD/PhD program after your PharmD.

That sucks, because I'm looking to do something like this.

I may be wrong, but there are a few DDS and MD programs that allow you to get in prior to receiving the bachelors assuming you have a good score on the MCAT and are very competitive academically.

Based on PharMed and my experience, you're horribly, horrible wrong. It's a bloodbath out there of not having a BS.

There is no way the adcom will accept a pharmd over a BS student if the latter student has a better GPA/MCAT. I think the pharmd will help if two candidates are equal, then the degree will boost the credentials. Sorry for the long post.

This post, while true, is bull ****ing ****. Oh, you have a healthcare professional vs a premed that probably doesn't know anything about medicine at all? LET'S TAKE THE PRE-MED BASED ON A BETTER SCORE FROM SUBJECTS THAT DON'T MATTER.

Most people that continue after a PharmD so so because of the somewhat limited role available to pharmacists. I wanted more autonomy as well as a wider spectrum of opportunities than I felt I could find in pharmacy.

This is why I'm doing it.

***In my own opinion, I think the PharmD will ultimately make me a better doctor because not only will I have a baseline knowledge of medicine but also the training to be able to look at statistical literature which is applicable to beyond just medications.

100% agreed. Also this.

There is so much to medicine, but we're really limited by being pharmacists. I'm taking the MCAT this April, and I have to start working on my PS and the AMCAS stuff as soon as finals end. PharMed, it'd be good if you were on gmail more often, haha.

 

[rph3664]

I've met, or know of, several pharmacists who went to medical school. Usually, they started off wanting to be a pharmacist and decided during their last year or two of school that they would rather be a physician, so they finished their degree, worked for a couple years as a pharmacist to get their loans paid off and save some money, etc. then went to medical school. One of them took a leave of absence during his residency because his father, who was also a pharmacist, died unexpectedly and he ran his dad's store until he could find a buyer; IIRC, he did this for 8 months.

One of my classmates, who's on Facebook with me, went to law school and while she still has her pharmacist's license, works as a corporate attorney. I suspect that even if the pay isn't as good, the hours are probably better, especially because she's now a single parent. Another pharmacist in my old town went to law school and realized halfway through his L3 year that he really didn't want to be an attorney after all, but since he'd gone this far, did graduate and took the bar exam. Last I heard, he was working at Wal-Mart, and you just know they know not to screw HIM over!

And at my old job, one of the medical residents was in his 40s and this was going to be his 3rd career. His first degree was in engineering, and he found the theory interesting but the practice much less so, so he went to his fallback career: he was a police officer for many years. His interest in medicine was piqued by bringing criminals into the ER, and when he burned out as an officer (not uncommon), applied for and got into medical school, and there he was.

 

[rph3664]

It would be pretty unusual for you to get into an MD/PhD program after your PharmD. These programs tend not to be the most nontrad-friendly anyway, and a previous non-research professional degree wouldn't do wonders to bolster your app.

I'll tell you a field where people get crapped on for wanting to go to medical school, and that's nursing. There's just something about the RN/MD or DO route that really bothers some people.

 

[Ramzy]

.

 

[rph3664]

Altho WVU had a very "eloquent" post....yes...it's true - some do go on to receive an MD/DO education. However, in my class - none did, altho one did go on to do a DDS. He always wanted to be a DDS, but didn't get in, so did a Pharm.D then went on. I recently saw him at my husband's DDS reunion & he does a lot of research on drugs used in dentistry.

Most often, these folks have lots of valid reasons for going on:
1. they didn't really know what pharmacy was like & went into it because of the career it offered, not knowing what the actual job entailed.
2. family pressures them into going into a "defined" job - ie - what are you going to be when you grow up?
3. they didn't get into medical school for a variety of reasons - low MCAT scores or whatever and it was easier to get into a pharmacy school because they had a high GPA
4. after getting into pharmacy school, they decided they wanted to pursue the diagnostic portion of medicine more.

IMO - you really have to decide you like pharmacy - not just drugs and disease, but what we as pharmacists contribute to the healthcare process. Otherwise, you'll be an unhappy pharmacist. I'm glad these folks have an opportunity to pursue what interests them & often it makes these providers very respectful of what we do. They are no better no nor worse than we are as providers - just different!

Or they decided after being in pharmacy school for a while that they really wanted to be a physician instead, and finished the degree in case they didn't get into medical school, or they worked for a year (or a few) and went to medical school later on.

One RPH/DO person I met kept his pharmacist license for some years after he got his DO, and took a leave of absence during his residency to run his father's store (yes, his dad was a pharmacist) after his father died suddenly.

ETA: Didn't realize I'd already posted in this thread!

 

[Faraz]

I have searched internet a lot but could not find right information of the institue that is offering MD after Pharm-D pleaseeeeeee Pleaseeeeeezzzzzz Any one can give some details about it like which institue is offering it?

 

[30Percent]

Any MD institution offers an MD after PharmD.

Try http://med.stanford.edu/.

Good luck.

 

[eagles22]

I have searched internet a lot but could not find right information of the institue that is offering MD after Pharm-D pleaseeeeeee Pleaseeeeeezzzzzz Any one can give some details about it like which institue is offering it?

Read this thread instead of just posting a whining message.

 

[golddagger]

I'm also a PharmD and finishing up my 1st year in medical school. I have to say that as hard as pharmacy school seemed, medical school is even harder. Not content wise but the speed of information thrown to you. Point is, make sure going to medical school will really make you happy. Even though MD's will make more than pharmacists later on, I basically took a $100K paycut to borrow more federal loans for 4 years. Hmmm....
I think i'm lucky that I got my pharmd in six years. Otherwise I don't think I would have went back to school. Not that you can't. The average matriculant is 24-25 in med school and many of my classmates are older than 26 when they started.
Also, the previous poster is correct, a PharmD from my experience will not help you immensely in getting into medical school. There is no way the adcom will accept a pharmd over a BS student if the latter student has a better GPA/MCAT. I think the pharmd will help if two candidates are equal, then the degree will boost the credentials. Sorry for the long post. BTW.. anyone interested in going from pharmd to MD/DO, i'll be willing to give some advice. PM me.

Hello,
read your post and made me think switch to medical school. How different is MD than PharmD? Is it better, worse or about the same as far as for employment, or academically? Do you recommend it to anybody?

 

[Humble Sloth]

Hello,
read your post and made me think switch to medical school. How different is MD than PharmD? Is it better, worse or about the same as far as for employment, or academically? Do you recommend it to anybody?

PharmD is a scam for *****s are are too stupid to get into medical school. Although easy to get in to, pharmacy shows its truth worthlessness when you hit the saturated job market with no jobs available.

 

[Humble Sloth]

i haven't read a lot of this thread ( kinda long ) , but to answer the original poster - a lot of people go through pharm school and realize it's not what they want to do - same as med school, dental school, PA school, etc. A good friend of mine completed the college / pharm school route in 6 years, decided he wanted to do medicine, went to med school, and was in residency at the age of 28 ; which isn't that far behind other residents. He's an anesthesiologist now - and though i might get flamed for this, he's making 4X what he would be as a pharmacist...so given the extra 8 years he had to invest were rough, it's also financially rewarding..

i wouldn't say that's financially rewarding. do you know how progressive federal income tax brackets work and productivity costs work? If anything he's probably lost at least lifetime 500,000 income

 

[PAtoPharm]

i wouldn't say that's financially rewarding. do you know how progressive federal income tax brackets work and productivity costs work? If anything he's probably lost at least lifetime 500,000 income

I think it probably depends on what specialty someone chooses. I went to undergrad for a year with a guy who just graduated from his orthopedic surgery fellowship and residency, and he was offered a base salary of $400k+ by orthopedic groups throughout the southeast, plus a percentage of procedure revenue. Even with the extra time and money spent in school, he's still looking at making way more over his lifetime than any pharmacist can expect to make.

 

[Humble Sloth]

I think it probably depends on what specialty someone chooses. I went to undergrad for a year with a guy who just graduated from his orthopedic surgery fellowship and residency, and he was offered a base salary of $400k+ by orthopedic groups throughout the southeast, plus a percentage of procedure revenue. Even with the extra time and money spent in school, he's still looking at making way more over his lifetime than any pharmacist can expect to make.

not when you include hours worked. He is worknig like 60 hours on average a week so that 400k is only 266k but he's really paying taxes on the whole 400k so he's only clearing 190 after tax and with debt and productivity cost he's maknig less lifetime income

 

[owlegrad]

not when you include hours worked. He is worknig like 60 hours on average a week so that 400k is only 266k but he's really paying taxes on the whole 400k so he's only clearing 190 after tax and with debt and productivity cost he's maknig less lifetime income

I am not sure that is how numbers work?

 

[Humble Sloth]

I am not sure that is how numbers work?

he is working 60 hours for 40 hours of pay. therefore his effectively hourly rate is much less than if he worked 40 hours.

 

[owlegrad]

he is working 60 hours for 40 hours of pay. therefore his effectively hourly rate is much less than if he worked 40 hours.

Hourly rate yes, not annual salary!

 

[owlegrad]

And you are assuming his wages are based on a 40 hour week...

 

[gwarm01]

I thought about it for a little bit after graduating. I don't think it's that uncommon. You get your first "clinical" position and see that it isn't what you thought. I know several pharmacists who worked as clinical specialists who shared the sentiment that they just expected it to be more. I knew a few guys that went back to medical school. I dropped the idea right around the time I stopped defining myself by my professional success. I've done decently well for this early in my career, and I take pride in what I do, but this is just a gig to me and not who I am. I don't think that attitude would get you through medical school or let you be a successful physician because the personal demands are so much greater.

 

[Humble Sloth]

And you are assuming his wages are based on a 40 hour week...

what im trying to say is if a physican is working 3120 hours a year for 400,000 USD and a pharmacist is working 2080 hours a year for 120,000 the 400,000 is worth less because it took more hours to earn it

 

[PAtoPharm]

what im trying to say is if a physican is working 3120 hours a year for 400,000 USD and a pharmacist is working 2080 hours a year for 120,000 the 400,000 is worth less because it took more hours to earn it

When I do the math based on your example, the pharmacist's hourly wage is $57, while the surgeon's hourly wage is $128. So even if the physician worked the same number of hours per year as the pharmacist, they'd still make more than twice as much as the pharmacist.

BTW, most surgeons also earn a percentage of the revenue they generate from insurance companies by doing procedures, so that's another thing to keep in mind. Some of the PAs I know in my area who have worked here forever have told me that the neurosurgeons and spine surgeons here all earn in the range of $2 mil - $5 mil a year. I believe it... these guys (not just the spine/neuro surgeons, but all the local ortho docs I'm familiar with) all have huge estate-type properties, like they're members of some kind of royal family. Just unreal to see how some people's hard work has paid off.

On the other hand, every pharmacist I'm familiar with lives in a middle (or upper-middle) class house... at best.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I thought about it for a little bit after graduating. I don't think it's that uncommon. You get your first "clinical" position and see that it isn't what you thought. I know several pharmacists who worked as clinical specialists who shared the sentiment that they just expected it to be more. I knew a few guys that went back to medical school. I dropped the idea right around the time I stopped defining myself by my professional success. I've done decently well for this early in my career, and I take pride in what I do, but this is just a gig to me and not who I am. I don't think that attitude would get you through medical school or let you be a successful physician because the personal demands are so much greater.

For some people, their motivation to become doctors/dentists doesn't even seem to be about having a preference to do the actual work of a doctor/dentist. Maybe it's just an act, but I knew guys in undergrad who are totally alpha-male "A type" people who want to specifically be an orthopedic surgeon, interventional radiologist, oral surgeon, or some other ultra high-paid specialist physician because they simply want to be a top one-percenter in everything they do. When I was in AA school, I met dental residents at the same university who had the same sort of mentality; they just want to be extremely successful, and financial wealth is a primary measure of success for them.

 

[lord999]

What about ER docs what make 300-400K working 24-28 hours per week?

Theirs is worth more!!!!

On pay parity for medicine, ER, diagnostic medicine (rad/specific areas in path/nuc), and a couple of the surgeries as employees make considerably more than pharmacy (in the range of $200-300/hour and higher adjusted for professional indignities like rurality or working with the poor). Even considering the training and liability increases, this is a different category than pharmacy will be.

As practice owners or equity partners (like dentistry), even IM practices usually work out to be in the $500k range in the low end. For surgical practice ownership (heck, even major non-surgical procedures), a sole practice can earn an idiotproof business net income between $2M and $3M as a solo one once all results are tabulated (by the way, there is a soft cap due to IRS intervention at those levels and above). A multiphysician practice where you are the owner or equity partner where you "own" the peon practitioners, the sky's the limit. However, most physicians end up starting some other line of business to avoid the IRS and Stark Law issues. In Minnesota, the owner of all the Popeye chain restaurants happens to be one of the senior transplant surgeons in the state (http://www.startribune.com/obituary-paul-najarian-business-owner/266125431/).

Pharmacy ownership usually tops out around $600-700k as a net matter if you are not a chain. Chain efficiency can drive that number up to $2-3M net per store as an average and $5-8M as an outlier.

The difference is that most states have it in their practice acts for physicians and dentists that an institution may not have employees as those licensed professionals except for delineated matters (Medical Chief of Staff, etc.), where pharmacy has always been more tolerant toward professional employees. Don't knock on it, the chains were the most responsible party for raising salaries beyond inflation in our business as much as they have considering flat reimbursements.

It's the matter of working for it, plain and simple. There are different risks, and there are different rewards. For the amount of headaches pharmacy has, I'm sure there are a lot of physicians who would not want to do what we do and vice-versa. Glad that there is a diversity of views.

That said, there are a bunch (as in most of my golf partners and people who hang around the U) of 60 year old physicians and 50 year old pharmacists who've made their numbers and are out of the rat race doing something else. Almost all of them upgraded to Spouse 2.0 as well (there is something about that from a sociological perspective that is interesting). It comes down to whether you intend to work a career/family or build capital. I do think there is a hard tradeoff unless you inherited rich whether or not you do one of the three. It's possible to do two of three, but one of them will end up falling apart (and most people choose the family to fall apart unlike what Hollywood idealizes).

 

[Lnsean]

On pay parity for medicine, ER, diagnostic medicine (rad/specific areas in path/nuc), and a couple of the surgeries as employees make considerably more than pharmacy (in the range of $200-300/hour and higher adjusted for professional indignities like rurality or working with the poor). Even considering the training and liability increases, this is a different category than pharmacy will be.

As practice owners or equity partners (like dentistry), even IM practices usually work out to be in the $500k range in the low end. For surgical practice ownership (heck, even major non-surgical procedures), a sole practice can earn an idiotproof business net income between $2M and $3M as a solo one once all results are tabulated (by the way, there is a soft cap due to IRS intervention at those levels and above). A multiphysician practice where you are the owner or equity partner where you "own" the peon practitioners, the sky's the limit. However, most physicians end up starting some other line of business to avoid the IRS and Stark Law issues. In Minnesota, the owner of all the Popeye chain restaurants happens to be one of the senior transplant surgeons in the state (http://www.startribune.com/obituary-paul-najarian-business-owner/266125431/).

Pharmacy ownership usually tops out around $600-700k as a net matter if you are not a chain. Chain efficiency can drive that number up to $2-3M net per store as an average and $5-8M as an outlier.

The difference is that most states have it in their practice acts for physicians and dentists that an institution may not have employees as those licensed professionals except for delineated matters (Medical Chief of Staff, etc.), where pharmacy has always been more tolerant toward professional employees. Don't knock on it, the chains were the most responsible party for raising salaries beyond inflation in our business as much as they have considering flat reimbursements.

It's the matter of working for it, plain and simple. There are different risks, and there are different rewards. For the amount of headaches pharmacy has, I'm sure there are a lot of physicians who would not want to do what we do and vice-versa. Glad that there is a diversity of views.

That said, there are a bunch (as in most of my golf partners and people who hang around the U) of 60 year old physicians and 50 year old pharmacists who've made their numbers and are out of the rat race doing something else. Almost all of them upgraded to Spouse 2.0 as well (there is something about that from a sociological perspective that is interesting). It comes down to whether you intend to work a career/family or build capital. I do think there is a hard tradeoff unless you inherited rich whether or not you do one of the three. It's possible to do two of three, but one of them will end up falling apart (and most people choose the family to fall apart unlike what Hollywood idealizes).

upgraded to Spouse 2.0 ehhh....lol

 

[Humble Sloth]

On pay parity for medicine, ER, diagnostic medicine (rad/specific areas in path/nuc), and a couple of the surgeries as employees make considerably more than pharmacy (in the range of $200-300/hour and higher adjusted for professional indignities like rurality or working with the poor). Even considering the training and liability increases, this is a different category than pharmacy will be.

As practice owners or equity partners (like dentistry), even IM practices usually work out to be in the $500k range in the low end. For surgical practice ownership (heck, even major non-surgical procedures), a sole practice can earn an idiotproof business net income between $2M and $3M as a solo one once all results are tabulated (by the way, there is a soft cap due to IRS intervention at those levels and above). A multiphysician practice where you are the owner or equity partner where you "own" the peon practitioners, the sky's the limit. However, most physicians end up starting some other line of business to avoid the IRS and Stark Law issues. In Minnesota, the owner of all the Popeye chain restaurants happens to be one of the senior transplant surgeons in the state (http://www.startribune.com/obituary-paul-najarian-business-owner/266125431/).

Pharmacy ownership usually tops out around $600-700k as a net matter if you are not a chain. Chain efficiency can drive that number up to $2-3M net per store as an average and $5-8M as an outlier.

The difference is that most states have it in their practice acts for physicians and dentists that an institution may not have employees as those licensed professionals except for delineated matters (Medical Chief of Staff, etc.), where pharmacy has always been more tolerant toward professional employees. Don't knock on it, the chains were the most responsible party for raising salaries beyond inflation in our business as much as they have considering flat reimbursements.

It's the matter of working for it, plain and simple. There are different risks, and there are different rewards. For the amount of headaches pharmacy has, I'm sure there are a lot of physicians who would not want to do what we do and vice-versa. Glad that there is a diversity of views.

That said, there are a bunch (as in most of my golf partners and people who hang around the U) of 60 year old physicians and 50 year old pharmacists who've made their numbers and are out of the rat race doing something else. Almost all of them upgraded to Spouse 2.0 as well (there is something about that from a sociological perspective that is interesting). It comes down to whether you intend to work a career/family or build capital. I do think there is a hard tradeoff unless you inherited rich whether or not you do one of the three. It's possible to do two of three, but one of them will end up falling apart (and most people choose the family to fall apart unlike what Hollywood idealizes).

I don't know how you can in good conscience operate a fast food joint that ruins peoples' lives and health like Pop Eyes and then pretend to be a medical professional. This guy was literally killing tens of thousands a people a year and making hundreds of thousands more into bariatric indivudals. He definitely did more harm operating the soda/fast foot eateries than good as a surgeon. He should have just sold heroin on the street. He would have done less damage to society.

 

[Lnsean]

I don't know how you can in good conscience operate a fast food joint that ruins peoples' lives and health like Pop Eyes and then pretend to be a medical professional. This guy was literally killing tens of thousands a people a year and making hundreds of thousands more into bariatric indivudals. He definitely did more harm operating the soda/fast foot eateries than good as a surgeon. He should have just sold heroin on the street. He would have done less damage to society.

Humans will be humans...that's greed and it's not limited to one profession. There was a pharmacist that ran his own store who was diluting chemo agents and pocketing the difference. It makes you lose hope in humanity.