Why are DO schools easier to get into ?

Jasmine26 · Nov 2, 2006

Hi, Im new to the whole pre-med thing. and im VERY VERY sorry for this question, I tried searching some threads but couldnt find something related.
I have never heard of DO's before coming to this forum. Ive been reading abt other peoples statistics, and when their stats are low, other members keep saying it is not good enough for an MD school but they should apply for DO schools???

Could someone explain this to me or refer me to a post. Why would they be easier to get into? is it because less people apply? I have tried searching abt DO's and from what I understood they are doctors so whats all the fuss abt?

Again sorry for the very naive question!

Kuba · Nov 2, 2006

Jasmine26 said:
Hi, Im new to the whole pre-med thing. and im VERY VERY sorry for this question, I tried searching some threads but couldnt find something related.
I have never heard of DO's before coming to this forum. Ive been reading abt other peoples statistics, and when their stats are low, other members keep saying it is not good enough for an MD school but they should apply for DO schools???

Could someone explain this to me or refer me to a post. Why would they be easier to get into? is it because less people apply? I have tried searching abt DO's and from what I understood they are doctors so whats all the fuss abt?

Again sorry for the very naive question!

DO's are the minority. Less quality(*stats wise) students apply so stats are lower.

Doc2007 · Nov 2, 2006

Jasmine26 said:
Hi, Im new to the whole pre-med thing. and im VERY VERY sorry for this question, I tried searching some threads but couldnt find something related.
I have never heard of DO's before coming to this forum. Ive been reading abt other peoples statistics, and when their stats are low, other members keep saying it is not good enough for an MD school but they should apply for DO schools???

Could someone explain this to me or refer me to a post. Why would they be easier to get into? is it because less people apply? I have tried searching abt DO's and from what I understood they are doctors so whats all the fuss abt?

Again sorry for the very naive question!

DO schools consider all of the characteristics to offer an acceptance. GPA and MCAT scores are important but they also look at other factors such as volunteer work, full time job, research, language barriers to name few. Low scores does not necessarily mean that they are below 3.0 and 20. Most schools average for Mcat score is between 24-29 and GPA is between 3.4-3.6. I hope this answers your questions.

pguin · Nov 2, 2006

Doc2007 said:
DO schools consider all of the characteristics to offer an acceptance. GPA and MCAT scores are important but they also look at other factors such as volunteer work, full time job, research, language barriers to name few.

Hah - awesome answer which is completely true..the only problem is that allopathic schools also look at these qualities so its not really the reason for the difference. In both schools of medicine the best students are accepted first and these are students who have a combination of academic and EC success. The pool of students applying to osteopathic schools is much smaller than that of MD schools. Additionally, whether or not anyone wants to admit it, many students (not all) do use DO schools as a backup to MD schools. Therefore, many people in DO students tried and were unable to make it into an MD program and thus tend to have lower entrance scores.

This in no way means that the education in an osteopathic school is any worse or better than an allopathic school nor does it mean the students will turn out to be better or worse doctors! No matter where you go you will receive an excellent education and be well trained. I personally feel that the focus of a particular medical school and how you fit into that school is much more important than whether the school is DO or MD, highly ranked or bottom, expensive or cheap, etc.

Unfortunately there are still many many people who only care about getting in the highest ranked school. Until this viewpoint changes among pre-med students or osteopathic medicine becomes more widely known among the general public - osteopathic schools will continue to have somewhat lower entrance scores.

Jasmine, if you're considering medical schools no matter what your scores are you should at least look into osteopathic schools, you may find one or the other is a better fit for you.

...and that is my pretend-I-know-what-i'm-talking-about speech for the day!

Packamylase · Nov 2, 2006

Jasmine26 said:
Hi, Im new to the whole pre-med thing. and im VERY VERY sorry for this question, I tried searching some threads but couldnt find something related.
I have never heard of DO's before coming to this forum. Ive been reading abt other peoples statistics, and when their stats are low, other members keep saying it is not good enough for an MD school but they should apply for DO schools???

Could someone explain this to me or refer me to a post. Why would they be easier to get into? is it because less people apply? I have tried searching abt DO's and from what I understood they are doctors so whats all the fuss abt?

Again sorry for the very naive question!

Jasmine, Why don't you try getting into an osteopathic medical school and then we can talk about how easy -or not- it was for you to gain admission. It's not easy to get into medical school, regardless of the applicant. However, osteopathic medical schools are looking for something a little different, so keep that in mind as well.

Taus · Nov 2, 2006

my theory.... the majority of pre-meds are all about getting into the most "prestigious" school possible and consider that above all else.... quality of education and personal "fit" are probably wayyyy down on the list after USNEWS research rankings and the name game... DO schools don't realistically fit the bill for those who have lived their lives to get 4.0's and 35's

JonnyG · Nov 2, 2006

Generally, an osteopathic student is lacking in either the MCAT or GPA. I have yet to run into someone who has had a problem with both. Also there are many borderline applicants who cannot get into a MD school and decide that a DO would not be right for them. This keeps the stats down too because many of these students would get into a DO school. Instead they waste year after year trying to find a loop whole in the application process while DOs keep matching into every field. (i couldnt resist a little jab)

Yes_I_DO · Nov 3, 2006

pguin said:
Hah - awesome answer which is completely true..the only problem is that allopathic schools also look at these qualities so its not really the reason for the difference. In both schools of medicine the best students are accepted first and these are students who have a combination of academic and EC success. The pool of students applying to osteopathic schools is much smaller than that of MD schools. Additionally, whether or not anyone wants to admit it, many students (not all) do use DO schools as a backup to MD schools. Therefore, many people in DO students tried and were unable to make it into an MD program and thus tend to have lower entrance scores.

This in no way means that the education in an osteopathic school is any worse or better than an allopathic school nor does it mean the students will turn out to be better or worse doctors! No matter where you go you will receive an excellent education and be well trained. I personally feel that the focus of a particular medical school and how you fit into that school is much more important than whether the school is DO or MD, highly ranked or bottom, expensive or cheap, etc.

Unfortunately there are still many many people who only care about getting in the highest ranked school. Until this viewpoint changes among pre-med students or osteopathic medicine becomes more widely known among the general public - osteopathic schools will continue to have somewhat lower entrance scores.

Jasmine, if you're considering medical schools no matter what your scores are you should at least look into osteopathic schools, you may find one or the other is a better fit for you.

...and that is my pretend-I-know-what-i'm-talking-about speech for the day!

I think Im gonna frame this answer. 👍

NjD00 · Nov 3, 2006

MD schools are more research orientated and the matriculants usually have more research under their belt and care a biiiiiiiiiitttt more about the science part of medicine.

They do not realize that everyone (esp girls) at DO schools are WAYYYYYYYYYY hotter.

Hardbody · Nov 3, 2006

Jasmine26 said:
Hi, Im new to the whole pre-med thing. and im VERY VERY sorry for this question, I tried searching some threads but couldnt find something related.
I have never heard of DO's before coming to this forum. Ive been reading abt other peoples statistics, and when their stats are low, other members keep saying it is not good enough for an MD school but they should apply for DO schools???

Could someone explain this to me or refer me to a post. Why would they be easier to get into? is it because less people apply? I have tried searching abt DO's and from what I understood they are doctors so whats all the fuss abt?

Again sorry for the very naive question!

Generally easier because DO schools tend to be more forgiving of either MCAT or GPA, but NOT BOTH. Sometimes good students (smart people) are not good standardized test takers and no matter how much prep goes into MAT preparation, they cannot score competitively enough for most MD programs. Sometimes students start off real bad with college (like myself, getting 7 F's in one semester by not officially withdrawing) and decide later on to get it going academically (like me, I have 120+ credit hours of 3.85GPA trend and I aced the pre reqs and an upper level), but still do not have a competitive GPA (AMCAS calculated) for MD programs. In my case, it would be ridicolous to spend an extra two years taking heavy course loads of undergraduate coursework just to bring my GPA up to a level considered competitive for MD programs.

And yes, I do like the DO philosophy, but that is not to say I wouldn't take an offer of admissions to one of my state MD programs.

theraball · Nov 3, 2006

Jasmine26 said:
Could someone explain this to me or refer me to a post. Why would they be easier to get into? is it because less people apply? I have tried searching abt DO's and from what I understood they are doctors so whats all the fuss abt?

AACOMAS lets you replace bad, old grades with better, new grades. You can annul that C- you got in chemistry your freshman year with a shiny, new A. AMCAS on the other hand simply averages the two grades together, although it must be pointed out that lots of allopathic medical schools do look at trends in grades and not merely the sum total.

Testy McAterson · Nov 3, 2006

pguin said:
Hah - awesome answer which is completely true..the only problem is that allopathic schools also look at these qualities so its not really the reason for the difference. In both schools of medicine the best students are accepted first and these are students who have a combination of academic and EC success. The pool of students applying to osteopathic schools is much smaller than that of MD schools. Additionally, whether or not anyone wants to admit it, many students (not all) do use DO schools as a backup to MD schools. Therefore, many people in DO students tried and were unable to make it into an MD program and thus tend to have lower entrance scores.

This in no way means that the education in an osteopathic school is any worse or better than an allopathic school nor does it mean the students will turn out to be better or worse doctors! No matter where you go you will receive an excellent education and be well trained. I personally feel that the focus of a particular medical school and how you fit into that school is much more important than whether the school is DO or MD, highly ranked or bottom, expensive or cheap, etc.

Unfortunately there are still many many people who only care about getting in the highest ranked school. Until this viewpoint changes among pre-med students or osteopathic medicine becomes more widely known among the general public - osteopathic schools will continue to have somewhat lower entrance scores.

Jasmine, if you're considering medical schools no matter what your scores are you should at least look into osteopathic schools, you may find one or the other is a better fit for you.

...and that is my pretend-I-know-what-i'm-talking-about speech for the day!

👍 (we really need a clapping hands icon)

MaximusD · Nov 3, 2006

I've said it a million times:

SMALLER APPLICANT POOL.

(And a slight disposition towards looking for traits that make a GOOD CLINICIAN)

PhantomfanMD · Nov 3, 2006

Doc2007 said:
DO schools consider all of the characteristics to offer an acceptance. GPA and MCAT scores are important but they also look at other factors such as volunteer work, full time job, research, language barriers to name few. Low scores does not necessarily mean that they are below 3.0 and 20. Most schools average for Mcat score is between 24-29 and GPA is between 3.4-3.6. I hope this answers your questions.

you have no idea what you're talking about... I know quite a few ppl to have gotten into M.D. schools with 3.3 GPAs and MCAT of 30 or so.

brookliner7 · Nov 3, 2006

Jasmine26 said:
Hi, Im new to the whole pre-med thing. and im VERY VERY sorry for this question, I tried searching some threads but couldnt find something related.
I have never heard of DO's before coming to this forum. Ive been reading abt other peoples statistics, and when their stats are low, other members keep saying it is not good enough for an MD school but they should apply for DO schools???

Could someone explain this to me or refer me to a post. Why would they be easier to get into? is it because less people apply? I have tried searching abt DO's and from what I understood they are doctors so whats all the fuss abt?

Again sorry for the very naive question!

why don't you call a school and ask them? None of us are on a adcom.

Jasmine26 · Nov 3, 2006

Thanks for the responses, that was really fast.

Im actually from Canada, so I think its harder for me to get into any school cause Ill be considered an international student.
Right now I started my Masters at McGill in biomedical engineering, I already have a first author publication from my undergraduate research, and a few years of research experience. My prob is I have NO volunteering/clinical experience, which is what im trying to do now.
Also I have NOT written the MCAT and want to write it in the summer. My GPA is around 3.5 overall (I graduated in Electrical Engineering), but its too low to get in a Canadian school which require >3.8-3.9 (isnt that ridiculous). Because of my lack of volunteering experience, and because im writing the MCAT in the summer, im thinking of delaying my application till fall 2009, instead of fall 2008.

My research is in breast cancer drug therapy, so I am interested in cancer research and I would like to be an oncologist, could I achieve this goal by applying to DO schools???
(I know somone is going to tell me off very soon, 🙁, sorry for the stupid questions, bear with me, im an engineering student, and im new to the whole health/pre-med thing)

Jasmine26 · Nov 3, 2006

Hardbody said:
Generally easier because DO schools tend to be more forgiving of either MCAT or GPA, but NOT BOTH. Sometimes good students (smart people) are not good standardized test takers and no matter how much prep goes into MAT preparation, they cannot score competitively enough for most MD programs. Sometimes students start off real bad with college (like myself, getting 7 F's in one semester by not officially withdrawing) and decide later on to get it going academically (like me, I have 120+ credit hours of 3.85GPA trend and I aced the pre reqs and an upper level), but still do not have a competitive GPA (AMCAS calculated) for MD programs. In my case, it would be ridicolous to spend an extra two years taking heavy course loads of undergraduate coursework just to bring my GPA up to a level considered competitive for MD programs.

And yes, I do like the DO philosophy, but that is not to say I wouldn't take an offer of admissions to one of my state MD programs.

Yea I agree with you, I had the same problem in my undergraduate, I had some circumstances and messed up my first two years, even though my last two years of my bachelors are 3.90/4.0, and I have letters from doctors/counsellors, the first two years still come back and haunt me, and my cumulative GPA is only 3.5 which dooesnt reflect my potential. In Canada they make a HUGE fuss over GPA, and even if you show an upward trend, especially when you apply for funding/financial aid/scholarships they would still prefer someone who was consistent with a higher overall GPA.

R.P. McMurphy · Nov 3, 2006

Testy McAterson said:
👍 (we really need a clapping hands icon)

There is one! ---> :clap:

Doc2007 · Nov 3, 2006

PhantomfanMD said:
you have no idea what you're talking about... I know quite a few ppl to have gotten into M.D. schools with 3.3 GPAs and MCAT of 30 or so.

Looks like you know it better than everyone. Good luck.

brookliner7 · Nov 3, 2006

Jasmine26 said:
Thanks for the responses, that was really fast.

Im actually from Canada, so I think its harder for me to get into any school cause Ill be considered an international student.
Right now I started my Masters at McGill in biomedical engineering, I already have a first author publication from my undergraduate research, and a few years of research experience. My prob is I have NO volunteering/clinical experience, which is what im trying to do now.
Also I have NOT written the MCAT and want to write it in the summer. My GPA is around 3.5 overall (I graduated in Electrical Engineering), but its too low to get in a Canadian school which require >3.8-3.9 (isnt that ridiculous). Because of my lack of volunteering experience, and because im writing the MCAT in the summer, im thinking of delaying my application till fall 2009, instead of fall 2008.

My research is in breast cancer drug therapy, so I am interested in cancer research and I would like to be an oncologist, could I achieve this goal by applying to DO schools???
(I know somone is going to tell me off very soon, 🙁, sorry for the stupid questions, bear with me, im an engineering student, and im new to the whole health/pre-med thing)

no one should tell you off, the board is here to help.

well, your stats sound good so far, like research and GPA. BUT, don't you think that having clinical (or working with people) experience is an essential prerequisite? I mean, don't you think that is one of a physician's most important qualities, being able to interact with the patient? And if you haven't done that yet, do you think it would be wise to do so before you decide this is the career for you?

GOOD LUCK!

MDstudent101 · Nov 3, 2006

To the OP, if you want finish your master's ok, but you dn't have to a 3.5 GPA is competative, you dn't have to delay to Fall of 2009 either, remember procrastination kills!! I would just get some more volunteering and shadowing under my belt before Fall 2008 or earlier. Then take the april mcats and apply that same year prob. in 2008 or even Fall of 2007!!! So keep your head up you can do it. Try to be optimistic regarding your situation, and be more obstinate towards your goal's. Just my 2 cent'z......... 😀

Good Luck.. 😉

NjD00 · Nov 3, 2006

brookliner7 said:
no one should tell you off, the board is here to help.

well, your stats sound good so far, like research and GPA. BUT, don't you think that having clinical (or working with people) experience is an essential prerequisite? I mean, don't you think that is one of a physician's most important qualities, being able to interact with the patient? And if you haven't done that yet, do you think it would be wise to do so before you decide this is the career for you?

GOOD LUCK!

Clinical and shadowing experience is very important, I think especially at DO schools. DMU, for instance, won't consider you if you don't have healthcare experience

Doctor · Nov 3, 2006

Jasmine26 said:
Even though my last two years of my bachelors are 3.90/4.0, and I have letters from doctors/counsellors, the first two years still come back and haunt me, and my cumulative GPA is only 3.5 which dooesnt reflect my potential. In Canada they make a HUGE fuss over GPA, and even if you show an upward trend, especially when you apply for funding/financial aid/scholarships they would still prefer someone who was consistent with a higher overall GPA.

As a dual citizen of the United States and Canada, I must say that the Canadian way of viewing GPA so critically is asinine. The MCAT is a much better indicator of success than GPA.

Testy McAterson · Nov 3, 2006

Jasmine26 said:
Thanks for the responses, that was really fast.

Im actually from Canada, so I think its harder for me to get into any school cause Ill be considered an international student.
Right now I started my Masters at McGill in biomedical engineering, I already have a first author publication from my undergraduate research, and a few years of research experience. My prob is I have NO volunteering/clinical experience, which is what im trying to do now.
Also I have NOT written the MCAT and want to write it in the summer. My GPA is around 3.5 overall (I graduated in Electrical Engineering), but its too low to get in a Canadian school which require >3.8-3.9 (isnt that ridiculous). Because of my lack of volunteering experience, and because im writing the MCAT in the summer, im thinking of delaying my application till fall 2009, instead of fall 2008.

My research is in breast cancer drug therapy, so I am interested in cancer research and I would like to be an oncologist, could I achieve this goal by applying to DO schools???
(I know somone is going to tell me off very soon, 🙁, sorry for the stupid questions, bear with me, im an engineering student, and im new to the whole health/pre-med thing)

i really think you need to get some clinical experience now... i'm assuming your research isn't clinical? research is great but volunteering and/or shadowing is very important--as some other people have already said--they ask about your volunteer experience and clinical experience on nearly every secondary. i really don't think you need a huge number of hours--but i wouldn't try to apply without it. maybe you can volunteer a couple hours a week in an emergency room or at a doctor's office? it'll also come in handy for getting letters of rec...

Hardbody · Nov 3, 2006

Doctor said:
As a dual citizen of the United States and Canada, I must say that the Canadian way of viewing GPA so critically is asinine. The MCAT is a much better indicator of success than GPA.

you know what, I was reading the U of Toronto website and they drop a grade in your GPA calculation for every full semester you have taken. I would actually end up with a great GPA by their measure 😀, so I am not so sure what the fuss about canadian schools is? The average GPA you see up there is partly responsible for their GPA calculation policy.

BTW, I actually like their policy of GPA calculations. I think AMCAS should implement a policy of only using your last 120 credit hours of classes taken (this way people that had issues and got off to a horrible start, like myself, would actually have a chance), or just use the Canadian method, but I am a little bias.

Jamers · Nov 3, 2006

Doctor said:
As a dual citizen of the United States and Canada, I must say that the Canadian way of viewing GPA so critically is asinine. The MCAT is a much better indicator of success than GPA.

I am currently at the top quartile of my medical school. I had a MCAT fo 22 and a GPA of 3.93, which of those is a better predictor of my success? MCAT reflects how you performed on A test, GPA is how you have done on a LOT of tests. Frankly, I wouldn't even look at you if you walked in with a 42 MCAT a below 3.0 GPA.

MaximusD · Nov 3, 2006

Jamers said:
I am currently at the top quartile of my medical school. I had a MCAT fo 22 and a GPA of 3.93, which of those is a better predictor of my success? MCAT reflects how you performed on A test, GPA is how you have done on a LOT of tests. Frankly, I wouldn't even look at you if you walked in with a 42 MCAT a below 3.0 GPA.

Granted you and I both know that your first year performance means jack **** when it comes to attaining residencies when compared to third and fourth year clinical evaluations. Admit it. Step scores and rotations are more important...although class rank is important, too.

And I sincerely hope that you know the difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific empirical evidence. You, my friend, are an example of the former and not the latter...

smuwillobrien · Nov 3, 2006

Jamers said:
I am currently at the top quartile of my medical school. I had a MCAT fo 22 and a GPA of 3.93, which of those is a better predictor of my success? MCAT reflects how you performed on A test, GPA is how you have done on a LOT of tests. Frankly, I wouldn't even look at you if you walked in with a 42 MCAT a below 3.0 GPA.

If you had a 42 MCAT and a below 3.0 from JHU, I'd look at you.

Jamers · Nov 4, 2006

drmax said:
Granted you and I both know that your first year performance means jack **** when it comes to attaining residencies when compared to third and fourth year clinical evaluations. Admit it. Step scores and rotations are more important...although class rank is important, too.

And I sincerely hope that you know the difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific empirical evidence. You, my friend, are an example of the former and not the latter...

All matters in the residency game, but I was just harping on MCAT. And to the person who responded after me, I'd ask what the **** you did to get below a 3.0.

Jasmine26 · Nov 4, 2006

Well my research is cancer drug therapy, so I will be working with medical scientists and doctors, but I guess thats not clinical experience, just clinical research still?

Ok so I took everyone's advice and I have an interview for volunteering at the cancer research society. So what kind of volunteering do I need? Does it need to be actually involved with patients? or can I organize charitable events?

I have contacted some friends, so Im trying to find out how to shadow a doctor, so hopefully by this month, I start getting some exposure.

Thanks for all the advice.

Jasmine26 · Nov 4, 2006

Hardbody said:
you know what, I was reading the U of Toronto website and they drop a grade in your GPA calculation for every full semester you have taken. I would actually end up with a great GPA by their measure 😀, so I am not so sure what the fuss about canadian schools is? The average GPA you see up there is partly responsible for their GPA calculation policy.

BTW, I actually like their policy of GPA calculations. I think AMCAS should implement a policy of only using your last 120 credit hours of classes taken (this way people that had issues and got off to a horrible start, like myself, would actually have a chance), or just use the Canadian method, but I am a little bias.

In Canada there are only like what 14 schools I can apply to, since the other ones are french. So think about it. The minimum cut-off is around 3.8 in some places. I am not sure how they actually calculate the GPA, im sure its different for each school. But the thing is you can have excellent grades, good MCAT, volunteering/leadership, and still get rejected from Canadian schools. Ive heard of 4.0 students getting rejected, well I only heard this from people trying to apply to McGill. Maybe its different elsewhere?

I heard Western is easiest to get into, out of all the Canadian schools

Hardbody · Nov 4, 2006

Jasmine26 said:
In Canada there are only like what 14 schools I can apply to, since the other ones are french. So think about it. The minimum cut-off is around 3.8 in some places. I am not sure how they actually calculate the GPA, im sure its different for each school. But the thing is you can have excellent grades, good MCAT, volunteering/leadership, and still get rejected from Canadian schools. Ive heard of 4.0 students getting rejected, well I only heard this from people trying to apply to McGill. Maybe its different elsewhere?

I heard Western is easiest to get into, out of all the Canadian schools

I just wanted to mention that I like the way the canadian schools calculate GPAs.

DoctorMom78 · Nov 4, 2006

Jamers said:
I am currently at the top quartile of my medical school. I had a MCAT fo 22 and a GPA of 3.93, which of those is a better predictor of my success? MCAT reflects how you performed on A test, GPA is how you have done on a LOT of tests. Frankly, I wouldn't even look at you if you walked in with a 42 MCAT a below 3.0 GPA.

I completely agree with you!!! More schools should think that way. Actually, Union College, (which is near where I live), has recently announced their decision to get rid of the ACT or SAT (or one of those tests) as an admission requirement to their school. They said that this is because: 1) People with the financial means to attend prep classes have an unfair advantage over those who don't, and 2) There is not enough of a valid correlation between true academic capability and a single test. Instead, they will be putting greater emphasis on GPA and the rest of the application. Osteopathic schools already do this and so I think that they are years ahead of the allopathic schools in terms of their way of thinking. I don't really understand the logic behind putting such a heavy emphasis on a single test. There are some really great people with high GPAs and great ECs who will make excellent doctors someday that may never get a chance to attend medical school due to their performance on a single test. So, if that person is not too ignorant to explore the possibilty of attending an osteopathic school, then they may have the opportunity after all. Neither the allopathic or the osteopathic schools are "easy" to get into. Just ask all the people who apply DO and don't get accepted. There are fewer people who apply to DO schools and the osteopathic schools are looking for a different type of person than the allopathic schools are. There are a lot of people who want to become a DO because they genuinely love the philosophy. Osteopathic medicine is not filled with only MD school rejects, (although there are a few😀 ). In reality, a large number of ignorant allopathic applicants feel that they are above osteopathic medicine and despite being rejected they would never consider applying to an osteopathic school at all. So, I don't think that it is probably a very large percentage of MD rejects anyway. DO schools just have a different approach and are looking for a different type of student than the allopathic schools are. (I think that the DO approach makes more sense anyway.) This is the reason for the misperception that DO schools are "easy" to get into. :luck:

Kuba · Nov 4, 2006

Jamers said:
I am currently at the top quartile of my medical school. I had a MCAT fo 22 and a GPA of 3.93, which of those is a better predictor of my success? MCAT reflects how you performed on A test, GPA is how you have done on a LOT of tests. Frankly, I wouldn't even look at you if you walked in with a 42 MCAT a below 3.0 GPA.

Well, ok, we are a case of opposites I guess. You have an amazing gpa, i have a poor gpa. you have a poor MCAT, I have a good MCAT. Who is harder working? I would say you based on your gpa. Who has a better grasp of scientific concepts? I would have to say me. Who will perform better in medical school? Who knows, There may be many reasons for the differences in the gpa that might influence med school performance, but you probably would acheive better grades. Who will do better on the boards? Most likely me. There is a good correlation between MCAT, especially verbal (*i got an 11) and boards, especially the USMLE step 2. So in the end, who is the better applicant?

snowkhat · Nov 4, 2006

Taus said:
my theory.... the majority of pre-meds are all about getting into the most "prestigious" school possible and consider that above all else.... quality of education and personal "fit" are probably wayyyy down on the list after USNEWS research rankings and the name game... DO schools don't realistically fit the bill for those who have lived their lives to get 4.0's and 35's

I would sadly agree with this statement. At least from the some of the pre-meds at my school (baby-gunners).

I think, in part, DO schools have lower requirements because some of the schools are newer and less established. Moreover, there are fewer DO schools and practicing physicians than allopathic.

In no way should DO applicants or students feel or be illustrated as "left-overs" from MD programs or less qualified students.

Best of luck and keep your options open. :luck:

snowkhat · Nov 4, 2006

DRKUBA said:
Well, ok, we are a case of opposites I guess. You have an amazing gpa, i have a poor gpa. you have a poor MCAT, I have a good MCAT. Who is harder working? I would say you based on your gpa. Who has a better grasp of scientific concepts? I would have to say me. Who will perform better in medical school? Who knows, There may be many reasons for the differences in the gpa that might influence med school performance, but you probably would acheive better grades. Who will do better on the boards? Most likely me. There is a good correlation between MCAT, especially verbal (*i got an 11) and boards, especially the USMLE step 2. So in the end, who is the better applicant?

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Union/5092/valid.html

Ok. These studies show a correlation between MCAT and medical school performance. The correlation is pretty low (r=.30 to r=.44). For a perfect correlation you want 1.0+. So I don't think these studies prove anything. In my opinon MCAT=revenue for AAMC and attempts to standardize applicants.

The MCAT certainly isn't the end all-win all---hard work and determination (and an IQ above 100, lol) are what is required!
:luck:

Kuba · Nov 4, 2006

snowkhat said:
http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Union/5092/valid.html

Ok. These studies show a correlation between MCAT and medical school performance. The correlation is pretty low (r=.30 to r=.44). For a perfect correlation you want 1.0+. So I don't think these studies prove anything. In my opinon MCAT=revenue for AAMC and attempts to standardize applicants.

The MCAT certainly isn't the end all-win all---hard work and determination (and an IQ above 100, lol) are what is required!

considering all variables involved in medical school success, .44 is a strong correlation. You cannot expect a single variable such as the Mcat to have a .7 correlation or else that would be the only thing evaluated by adcoms. And I never said it was the "end all-win all" I was just responding to Jamers comments. I got 25 on my first practice MCAT without studying at all and without finishing the pre-reqs. So did I learn the material from my undergrad classes taht I had taken so far? YES! Is my gpa crappy? YES. learning the material and gpa dont relate well. You can get by with strict memorization for undergrad classes, but you dont learn the material well and hence get a poor mcat score. Say what you want about the mcat, but in order to break 30 you need a strong understanding of the fundamental scientific topics.

sorry if i sound like a prick, but I was offended by Jamers comment.

Kuba · Nov 4, 2006

Just want to point out that I dont believe that having a 22 MCAT will mean you will stink up the boards. I am just talking probabilty of one person being greater in score than the other. There are many more variables involved. Neither the gpa or the MCAT are perfect, but dont discount the other by saying " I wouldnt look at a 42 MCAT with an under 3 gpa." that's just ridiculous

QofQuimica · Nov 4, 2006

Jamers said:
I am currently at the top quartile of my medical school. I had a MCAT fo 22 and a GPA of 3.93, which of those is a better predictor of my success? MCAT reflects how you performed on A test, GPA is how you have done on a LOT of tests. Frankly, I wouldn't even look at you if you walked in with a 42 MCAT a below 3.0 GPA.

Well, for all of the lip service that people in this forum pay to osteopathic schools considering applicants holistically, you and those who agree with you would have just eliminated me from your med school applicant pool, friend. I applied to medical school last year with a 43 MCAT and a GPA of ZERO. Why? Because my undergraduate institution doesn't give grades, credit hours, or GPAs. So when AMCAS calculated my UG GPA, they literally came up with zero. Evidently some of the schools agree with your hardnosed approach, but luckily for me and a lot of other non-traditional students, many schools (both allopathic and osteopathic) are willing to take a look at WHY someone might have a sub 3.0 GPA and a high MCAT score. And actually, DO schools tend to be kinder to us non-trads on the whole than allopathic schools are. It's in keeping with their more holistic approach, IMO. 🙂

edge_of_me · Nov 4, 2006

pguin said:
Hah - awesome answer which is completely true..the only problem is that allopathic schools also look at these qualities so its not really the reason for the difference. In both schools of medicine the best students are accepted first and these are students who have a combination of academic and EC success. The pool of students applying to osteopathic schools is much smaller than that of MD schools. Additionally, whether or not anyone wants to admit it, many students (not all) do use DO schools as a backup to MD schools. Therefore, many people in DO students tried and were unable to make it into an MD program and thus tend to have lower entrance scores.

This in no way means that the education in an osteopathic school is any worse or better than an allopathic school nor does it mean the students will turn out to be better or worse doctors! No matter where you go you will receive an excellent education and be well trained. I personally feel that the focus of a particular medical school and how you fit into that school is much more important than whether the school is DO or MD, highly ranked or bottom, expensive or cheap, etc.

Unfortunately there are still many many people who only care about getting in the highest ranked school. Until this viewpoint changes among pre-med students or osteopathic medicine becomes more widely known among the general public - osteopathic schools will continue to have somewhat lower entrance scores.

Jasmine, if you're considering medical schools no matter what your scores are you should at least look into osteopathic schools, you may find one or the other is a better fit for you.

...and that is my pretend-I-know-what-i'm-talking-about speech for the day!

This is a great response! But just out of curiosity does anyone know on average how many MD seats and DO seats are available each year?

Jamers · Nov 4, 2006

DRKUBA said:
considering all variables involved in medical school success, .44 is a strong correlation. You cannot expect a single variable such as the Mcat to have a .7 correlation or else that would be the only thing evaluated by adcoms. And I never said it was the "end all-win all" I was just responding to Jamers comments. I got 25 on my first practice MCAT without studying at all and without finishing the pre-reqs. So did I learn the material from my undergrad classes taht I had taken so far? YES! Is my gpa crappy? YES. learning the material and gpa dont relate well. You can get by with strict memorization for undergrad classes, but you dont learn the material well and hence get a poor mcat score. Say what you want about the mcat, but in order to break 30 you need a strong understanding of the fundamental scientific topics.

sorry if i sound like a prick, but I was offended by Jamers comment.

Yes, my point was to offend everyone, not give hope to those that had low MCAT scores. You got me. Anyways, I have three degrees and I can tell you that you CANNOT get by with memorizing topics. Did I learn the material in my undergrad, **** yeah. Proof is in the fact that I don't have to kill myself with studying and my rank is still strong. In addition, medical school is NOT memorization.Those people that had the high GPAs that, as you say, just memorized their way through the 4 years would find it very easy here in medical school. I am sorry but if it was this easy the mean for our first anatomy test would not have been a measly 82. I have seen similar studies to the MCAT and BOARD calculations and, while my strong point is not math, I have not been impressed. Coorelation does NOT equal causation; there is much more to performance than a simple score on one test. For example: many schools teach to the MCATs, mine didn't. Also, many people take a prep class, I could not afford one. Was this the only thing to lower my score? No, the pure lack of taking it seriously was what lowered my score. Until I see some real hardcore proof, I will continue to believe that a four year performance in a hard major carries more weight than a performance on a single test.

Jamers · Nov 4, 2006

QofQuimica said:
Well, for all of the lip service that people in this forum pay to osteopathic schools considering applicants holistically, you and those who agree with you would have just eliminated me from your med school applicant pool, friend. I applied to medical school last year with a 43 MCAT and a GPA of ZERO. Why? Because my undergraduate institution doesn't give grades, credit hours, or GPAs. So when AMCAS calculated my UG GPA, they literally came up with zero. Evidently some of the schools agree with your hardnosed approach, but luckily for me and a lot of other non-traditional students, many schools (both allopathic and osteopathic) are willing to take a look at WHY someone might have a sub 3.0 GPA and a high MCAT score. And actually, DO schools tend to be kinder to us non-trads on the whole than allopathic schools are. It's in keeping with their more holistic approach, IMO. 🙂

Maybe my inital post was not worded correctly, I didn't throw in anything about life experiences in there. I could easily understand someone who is in their 30's with a lower GPA but with enough experiences to even it all out. However, my comment was pointed towards people who just graduated. You can choose to take offense to it if you want and, if you do, I have a tissue right here. 😍

Jamers · Nov 4, 2006

DRKUBA said:
Just want to point out that I dont believe that having a 22 MCAT will mean you will stink up the boards. I am just talking probabilty of one person being greater in score than the other. There are many more variables involved. Neither the gpa or the MCAT are perfect, but dont discount the other by saying " I wouldnt look at a 42 MCAT with an under 3 gpa." that's just ridiculous

Would you like a hug? This is a forum sweetheart, not everyone shares your opinion on things. People with a high GPA but lower MCAT are going to share mine and people with a high MCAT but lower GPA are giong to be like **** YOU. I bet people with a balance of both are just going to think we are both idiots. The moral of the story: stop wasting your time being angry with someone you will most likely never meet and go have fun. You will not convince me that MCAT means more than GPA and I will not convince you that GPA is more than MCAT. I wont even convince you that the balance is better since my MCAT is so low that you already think my board scores will stink despite my high GPA. Am I going to write an angry reply back to you or am I just going to say, "I have heard this from about 8 billion people and it is up to me to proove them wrong?" You be the judge.

Kuba · Nov 4, 2006

Jamers said:
Did I learn the material in my undergrad, **** yeah. Proof is in the fact that I don't have to kill myself with studying and my rank is still strong.

No offense, If you really learned the materiel well you would be able to acheive higher than a 22 without studying.

Kuba · Nov 4, 2006

Jamers said:
Would you like a hug? This is a forum sweetheart, not everyone shares your opinion on things. People with a high GPA but lower MCAT are going to share mine and people with a high MCAT but lower GPA are giong to be like **** YOU. I bet people with a balance of both are just going to think we are both idiots. The moral of the story: stop wasting your time being angry with someone you will most likely never meet and go have fun. You will not convince me that MCAT means more than GPA and I will not convince you that GPA is more than MCAT. I wont even convince you that the balance is better since my MCAT is so low that you already think my board scores will stink despite my high GPA. Am I going to write an angry reply back to you or am I just going to say, "I have heard this from about 8 billion people and it is up to me to proove them wrong?" You be the judge.

you already wrote an angry reply.... lol. Im not the angry one, I never said Mcat is more important than gpa, i was just arguing for a balance. you were the one who said that gpa is much more important than mcat. i am a premed, i have an excuse for saying stupid things. For a med student, you are still very insecure about that MCAT, huh?

by the way, did you even read what you qouted in your reply? Try reading it again.

Jamers · Nov 4, 2006

DRKUBA said:
you already wrote an angry reply.... lol. Im not the angry one, I never said Mcat is more important than gpa, i was just arguing for a balance. you were the one who said that gpa is much more important than mcat. i am a premed, i have an excuse for saying stupid things. For a med student, you are still very insecure about that MCAT, huh?

by the way, did you even read what you qouted in your reply? Try reading it again.

Sure, you win the bigger penis competition, does it make you feel better? And, no, my MCAT doesn't bug me, if it did, I wouldn't tell people about it. You can say anything you want about my MCAT score; that is why it is at the bottom of my signature and why I am not shy in admitting it. But you go and think whatever gets you through the day. The only correct statement I even see in your above post is that I believe that GPA holds more weight. Yep, I do. Am I wrong, go back to my previous post for that answer! And, by the way, do you ever read anything I post or are you just so damn angry that you just type the first thing that comes to your mind? As for your other post about how much better my MCAT score should have been, well it wasn't, so I guess you are making up numbers :laugh:

. I seriously have that hug waiting for you though. I hope it will get you through your interviews. Now this MCAT vs GPA conversation is just so old, can we move onto something else. How about some more MD vs DO arguments, those always go over well. Or if it is better to be a History major or a Biology major. In fact, lets just start on politics as well. **** it, we should pick out every topic that people are sure to disagree on so we can start a thread and take everything seriously. Do you get my point here? If not, here is a dollar, go see a movie.

Darch · Nov 4, 2006

Jamers said:
Sure, you win the bigger penis competition, does it make you feel better? And, no, my MCAT doesn't bug me, if it did, I wouldn't tell people about it. You can say anything you want about my MCAT score; that is why it is at the bottom of my signature and why I am not shy in admitting it. But you go and think whatever gets you through the day. The only correct statement I even see in your above post is that I believe that GPA holds more weight. Yep, I do. Am I wrong, go back to my previous post for that answer! And, by the way, do you ever read anything I post or are you just so damn angry that you just type the first thing that comes to your mind? As for your other post about how much better my MCAT score should have been, well it wasn't, so I guess you are making up numbers . I seriously have that hug waiting for you though. I hope it will get you through your interviews. Now this MCAT vs GPA conversation is just so old, can we move onto something else. How about some more MD vs DO arguments, those always go over well. Or if it is better to be a History major or a Biology major. In fact, lets just start on politics as well. **** it, we should pick out every topic that people are sure to disagree on so we can start a thread and take everything seriously. Do you get my point here? If not, here is a dollar, go see a movie.

seriously guys? can we agree to disagree and stop yelling through a forum...

both of you are correct...the MCAT and your GPA are important for getting into medical school and both are important factors that most likely correlate with board scores. you are both good candidates in your own ways so be proud of what you have accomplished. there is no need to fight about things that you clearly worked hard to attain and you are not going to change them in the future. go out and have a drink or something...both of you seem to need it.

pguin · Nov 4, 2006

wow...i really like the argument here!!! im going to try to help it along by throwing in some arguments for both of you.

Pro MCAT: Everyone takes the same test so it does a much better job of determining what and how well i assimilated information from your undergraduate education.

Pro GPA: The GPA is a much better reflection of your ability to perform consistently well over a long period of time.

Pro MCAT: I got a 33 so obviously its more important

Pro GPA: I never ever ever went to class and will probably continue to do this in med school and do terribly!

In the end I win....wait what are we talking about?

Kuba · Nov 4, 2006

umm..I never said mcat was more important. I was just refuting JAmers statement that the gpa was so much more important than the mcat. I think you guys just assumed I was saying that...😕

Jamers · Nov 4, 2006

pguin said:
wow...i really like the argument here!!! im going to try to help it along by throwing in some arguments for both of you.

Pro MCAT: Everyone takes the same test so it does a much better job of determining what and how well i assimilated information from your undergraduate education.

Pro GPA: The GPA is a much better reflection of your ability to perform consistently well over a long period of time.

Pro MCAT: I got a 33 so obviously its more important

Pro GPA: I never ever ever went to class and will probably continue to do this in med school and do terribly!

In the end I win....wait what are we talking about?

HAHAH, you have become my new best friend. What is your avatar though??

Why are DO schools easier to get into ?

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Seriously, dude, I think you're overreacting....

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