Why are DO schools easier to get into ?

[czanetti]

You got a point

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[jkhamlin]

I realy like your posts, but I just wanted to point out that you have the statistics a little mixed up. .4 in this particular case is not that low. There are a lot of factors is medical school success, and the fact that ONE of them has a .4 correlation is pretty big. If it were in the .7-1.0 range then it would be the ONLY factor. A study would throw out a .4 correlation because they only focus on ONE variable to see how something works. This does not apply here. If you dont believe me, believe the editors of the journal that published that study. They would not have if it were not significant.

Note: by success I mean board score, which I dont necessarily agree with as an indicator of success, but it is the simplest measure.

A .4 correlation is not equivalent to 40%. For the percent explained by the regressor, you take .4^2, which gives you .16. Therefore, the outcome is explained 16% by the predictor referred to (I assume this was MCAT score). Most entrance exams have this low of a prediction value for future success.

 

[mitawa]

Still believed that often the were over medicating and treating symptoms while not the actual disease. (He had this whole preventative medicine philosophy) Around 1874, He began to formulate several principles that included the importance treating the musculoskeletal system to restore function and aid in maintaining health. At the time there were still other schools of thought out there pertaining to medicine, including the Homeopathy (one of their main schools Drexel Medical School which eventually became allopathic).

Drexel wasn't a medical school previously (at least as it stands today). It has been a combination of many medical schools of the past... Here is Wikipedia's account of Drexel's history:

History

Medical College of Pennsylvania (MCP)
1850 - 1867: Female Medical College of Pennsylvania
1867 - 1970: Woman's Medical College of Pennsylvania
1970 - 1993: Medical College of Pennsylvania

Hahnemann University (HU)
1848 - 1869: Homeopathic College of Pennsylvania
1869 - 1982: Hahnemann Medical College
1982 - 1993: Hahnemann University

Drexel University College of Medicine
1993 - 1998: MCP Hahnemann School of Medicine (merger of MCP and HU)
1998 - 2002: MCP Hahnemann University
2002 - present: Drexel University College of Medicine

It's complicated, but sufficive to say Drexel's precursor, Homeopathic College of Pennsylvania, was only a Homeopathic institution for 21 years out of its 150+ year existence. (source: wikipedia)

or for Drexel's historical account go here: http://www.drexelmed.edu/About/History/tabid/639/Default.aspx

Thanks for the complete picture on Drexels history! Like I've said before the complete history of allopathic/osteopathic and the in between medical philosophies and school origins is lengthy!

 

[Kuba]

Wasn't this thing paid for BY the freakin' company that puts out the MCAT? Of course they will make sure there is a correlation. C'mon.
It's just as bad as drug companies paying for "studies" to show there's no correlation between their drug and heart disease, or there IS correlation with lowering cholesterol and their drug. You'll find another 4 studies done by someone else proving there is NO correlation at all. Gimme a break. This is hardly conclusive proof.

i agree. But it is the best we got... and we still prescribe Lipitor, don't we?
I am just trying to argue for the important of both MCAT and gpa in this whole thread, not that mcat>gpa. Some people earlier were trying to say MCAT doesnt matter, and i am arguing againt that. That's all.

 

[Jamers]

A .4 correlation is not equivalent to 40%. For the percent explained by the regressor, you take .4^2, which gives you .16. Therefore, the outcome is explained 16% by the predictor referred to (I assume this was MCAT score). Most entrance exams have this low of a prediction value for future success.

Damn son, I think I remember that from STATs class...ha!

DRKUBA just won’t let it die. The plane has crashed into the mountain, there are no survivors!!! (NAME THAT MOVIE)!!

 

[Orthodoc40]

i agree. But it is the best we got... and we still prescribe Lipitor, don't we?
I am just trying to argue for the important of both MCAT and gpa in this whole thread, not that mcat>gpa. Some people earlier were trying to say MCAT doesnt matter, and i am arguing againt that. That's all.

Okay, fair enough.

BTW - Lipitor has proven to have some pretty serious complications. Still, the drug companies have pushed to lower the overall recommended cholesterol level so that doctors can prescribe even MORE of it. Point is - the drug companies are calling the shots on what's a good number and what isn't - so is it smart to go by what they say when prescribing? No, because they are tilting the numbers in their favor. Basically I just do not trust published numbers like that... Call me a non-scientist, I guess...

 

[czanetti]

this is what happens when you live in an elitest society. Big buisness gets the final say and becuase US healthcare is a buisness this will happen time and time again. Did you know that the FDA only has about $1.1 million per year to perform follow up studies. According to an FDA official, FDA does not conduct its own clinical trials because of the high cost associated with carrying out such studies and because FDA does not have the infrastructure needed to conduct them. It was recently estimated that clinical trials designed to study long-term drug safety would cost between $3 million and $7 million per trial. The estimated cost of just one such trial would exceed the amount FDA has currently allocated (1.1 million) for its contracts with researchers outside the FDA
here is the report done by the goverment accountability office

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06402.pdf

look on page 28 last paragraph continue to read

here is an article pertaining to what the cost of a follow up study should be

http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/hlthaff.w5.469/DC1


Now can anyone tell me how this avoids bias?????? when the pharmacuetical company that made the drug and needs to profit from it runs the follow up studies to ensure its safety?

Statistics can easily be manipulated for Vioxx the pharmacuetical company literally left out studies that were unfavorable to there product.

This info and much more is in the book :
Overdo$ed America by Dr. John Abramson.

the book research done in the book is amazing he gives you resources for everything.
http://www.amazon.com/Overdosed-Ame..._bbs_sr_1/104-3318858-9580707?ie=UTF8&s=books

 

[czanetti]

Okay, fair enough.

BTW - Lipitor has proven to have some pretty serious complications. Still, the drug companies have pushed to lower the overall recommended cholesterol level so that doctors can prescribe even MORE of it. Point is - the drug companies are calling the shots on what's a good number and what isn't - so is it smart to go by what they say when prescribing? No, because they are tilting the numbers in their favor. Basically I just do not trust published numbers like that... Call me a non-scientist, I guess...

You wouldn't be a non scientist at all. The tilting of numbers by the pharmacuetical companies makes it unscientific, you are arguing for the point of science that is being misinterpreted and abused. You are being scientific by pointing out that they are using currupt science.

 

[Kuba]

You wouldn't be a non scientist at all. The tilting of numbers by the pharmacuetical companies makes it unscientific, you are arguing for the point of science that is being misinterpreted and abused. You are being scientific by pointing out that they are using currupt science.

exactly, that is being scientific. However, there have been several studies relating mcat and med school success. Not just that one. They generally show that the mcat is a good predictor of the performance the first 2 years only. Something I completely agree with. I am sure mcat score has no correlation to how good a doctor you will be in the end at all. If anything that may be inversely related - except in my case of course

 

[do2b4sure]

Tis is a buchnch of crap if you're saying that DIO sutudents are getting into the osteopath easier than it is to get into allopath. That is just a bungch of crap. Sometimes numbers aren't everyinthing. And DO scholols can see that. That's why they let in the beste ver y bsest!!!!

Good luck guys!!!! Thanks guys!

 

[BeatrixKiddo]

Hah Jasmine, if you're considering medical schools no matter what your scores are you should at least look into osteopathic schools, you may find one or the other is a better fit for you.

...and that is my pretend-I-know-what-i'm-talking-about speech for the day!

By better fit do you mean that they allow drinking of cow blood, nudity, and have a class on watching Price is Right?

 

[Kuba]

Tis is a buchnch of crap if you're saying that DIO sutudents are getting into the osteopath easier than it is to get into allopath. That is just a bungch of crap. Sometimes numbers aren't everyinthing. And DO scholols can see that. That's why they let in the beste ver y bsest!!!!

Good luck guys!!!! Thanks guys!

lay off the wine coolers

 

[mletter]

lay off the wine coolers

Nice observation.

 

[pguin]

By better fit do you mean that they allow drinking of cow blood, nudity, and have a class on watching Price is Right?

wow!!...im glad you understood exactly what i meant. I personally would try to find a university where monkeys stand in front and fling poo, theres absolutely nothing better than that!.

However i guess some people actually want a medical education and should choose a school where they are most comfortable and will be able to fit in and work at the highest level possible

Screw them though, im dropping my acceptances and going to Poo Flinging U!

 

[jkhamlin]

Tis is a buchnch of crap if you're saying that DIO sutudents are getting into the osteopath easier than it is to get into allopath. That is just a bungch of crap. Sometimes numbers aren't everyinthing. And DO scholols can see that. That's why they let in the beste ver y bsest!!!!

Good luck guys!!!! Thanks guys!

Scholols? Is that a new beta blocker?

 

[Huntr]

Sure, you win the bigger penis competition, does it make you feel better? And, no, my MCAT doesn't bug me, if it did, I wouldn't tell people about it. You can say anything you want about my MCAT score; that is why it is at the bottom of my signature and why I am not shy in admitting it. But you go and think whatever gets you through the day. The only correct statement I even see in your above post is that I believe that GPA holds more weight. Yep, I do. Am I wrong, go back to my previous post for that answer! And, by the way, do you ever read anything I post or are you just so damn angry that you just type the first thing that comes to your mind? As for your other post about how much better my MCAT score should have been, well it wasn't, so I guess you are making up numbers . I seriously have that hug waiting for you though. I hope it will get you through your interviews. Now this MCAT vs GPA conversation is just so old, can we move onto something else. How about some more MD vs DO arguments, those always go over well. Or if it is better to be a History major or a Biology major. In fact, let’s just start on politics as well. **** it, we should pick out every topic that people are sure to disagree on so we can start a thread and take everything seriously. Do you get my point here? If not, here is a dollar, go see a movie.

Bull**** the MCAT is purely geared towards individuals with an apptitude for taking standardized test...we can sit here all day long and b.s. about which factor determines more...but when it all comes down to it I and (I believe a majority of the population) would much rather prefer a physician that knows how to work hard and has a sound understanding of the pertinent material than an individual that is able to figure his or her way around a damn test. By the way I received an avg. gpa 3.7 and an avg. mcat of 29. I am by no means a "genius" not even close...I just work hard... and in order to receive a descent gpa you must work hard.....period.

 

[Jamers]

Bull**** the MCAT is purely geared towards individuals with an apptitude for taking standardized test...we can sit here all day long and b.s. about which factor determines more...but when it all comes down to it I and (I believe a majority of the population) would much rather prefer a physician that knows how to work hard and has a sound understanding of the pertinent material than an individual that is able to figure his or her way around a damn test. By the way I received an avg. gpa 3.7 and an avg. mcat of 29. I am by no means a "genius" not even close...I just work hard... and in order to receive a descent gpa you must work hard.....period.

I just re-read your comment about 6 times and I have to say, I have no clue why the hell you quoted me in your reply as I did not say anything that you were commenting about. I am willing to give a fellow DMUer the benefit of the doubt though. However, I am very lost right now.

 

[BeatrixKiddo]

wow!!...im glad you understood exactly what i meant. I personally would try to find a university where monkeys stand in front and fling poo, theres absolutely nothing better than that!.

However i guess some people actually want a medical education and should choose a school where they are most comfortable and will be able to fit in and work at the highest level possible

Screw them though, im dropping my acceptances and going to Poo Flinging U!

Ew! I would NEVER touch anything that smell yucky. I will fit in at a school that has a lot of ugly weird Pakistani girls. Where should I go?

 

[Dr.HessD.O.]

exactly, that is being scientific. However, there have been several studies relating mcat and med school success. Not just that one. They generally show that the mcat is a good predictor of the performance the first 2 years only. Something I completely agree with. I am sure mcat score has no correlation to how good a doctor you will be in the end at all. If anything that may be inversely related - except in my case of course

What studies? Second time???

 

[Dr.HessD.O.]

Okay, Dr.Kuba, I'm not picking on you or even disagreeing with you totally I just like solid empirical evidence. Therefore, the fact of the matter is, I just spent barely an hour researching the correlation between GPA and MCAT scores as a predictor of success (more than just googling it) and to my surprise depending on which you chose to research (GPA or MCAT) the one you specify comes up as more significant than the other. I found many studies performed by AAMC and not to my surprise MCAT scores were correlated strongly to success during the first two years as you said. Then for independent studies other than the MCAT, GPA is more important. The point is to me, neither is more important in predicting future success in medical school. It is once again left up to the individual to determine and achieve their success on boards and during medical school. There are many reasons for a poor GPA and equally as many for a poor MCAT score. The fact of the matter is to say one ways more heavily than the other is asinine. Therefore in my opinion we should as a group of SDNR’S no longer argue which is a better predictor of success in medical school. Good luck on the rest of your acceptances....

 

[Kuba]

Okay, Dr.Kuba, I'm not picking on you or even disagreeing with you totally I just like solid empirical evidence. Therefore, the fact of the matter is, I just spent barely an hour researching the correlation between GPA and MCAT scores as a predictor of success (more than just googling it) and to my surprise depending on which you chose to research (GPA or MCAT) the one you specify comes up as more significant than the other. I found many studies performed by AAMC and not to my surprise MCAT scores were correlated strongly to success during the first two years as you said. Then for independent studies other than the MCAT, GPA is more important. The point is to me, neither is more important in predicting future success in medical school. It is once again left up to the individual to determine and achieve their success on boards and during medical school. There are many reasons for a poor GPA and equally as many for a poor MCAT score. The fact of the matter is to say one ways more heavily than the other is asinine. Therefore in my opinion we should as a group of SDNR’S no longer argue which is a better predictor of success in medical school. Good luck on the rest of your acceptances....

you actually agree with me. Thats what I have been saying all along if you read the whole thread. But in reference to your question about which study, there is this British study that compiles al the other ones and gives a thourough analysis of importance. I'd search for it, but its 5am...

 

[Dr.HessD.O.]

you actually agree with me. Thats what I have been saying all along if you read the whole thread. But in reference to your question about which study, there is this British study that compiles al the other ones and gives a thourough analysis of importance. I'd search for it, but its 5am...

Fair enough.....

 

[Depakote]

By better fit do you mean that they allow drinking of cow blood, nudity, and have a class on watching Price is Right?

ARE there schools like that? Is it too late to designate them?

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Bull**** the MCAT is purely geared towards individuals with an apptitude for taking standardized test...we can sit here all day long and b.s. about which factor determines more...but when it all comes down to it I and (I believe a majority of the population) would much rather prefer a physician that knows how to work hard and has a sound understanding of the pertinent material than an individual that is able to figure his or her way around a damn test. By the way I received an avg. gpa 3.7 and an avg. mcat of 29. I am by no means a "genius" not even close...I just work hard... and in order to receive a descent gpa you must work hard.....period.

As smart as you claim to be, you can't even spell decent?

It wasn't a typo.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

As smart as you claim to be, you can't even spell decent?

It wasn't a typo.

Okay, I tend to be a grammar nazi, but poor spelling doesn't mean you're dumb. Some people can spell; some people can't.

As for the mcat/gpa debate, I don't know. Hard work is an important factor, and I would be worried about admitting anybody who can't show that they have worked hard in the past. One of the people at my school who has since left partially for academic difficulties apparently scored really high on his MCAT (I think especially the verbal section). However, he had a cr@ppy science GPA because he never studied. Unfortunately, he couldn't figure out how to study soon enough in his first year of med school, so he didn't hack it. If anything, our adcoms did him and the other applicants a disservice by admitting someone who didn't have adequate study skills going into school.

Overall, I guess that's why schools prefer applicants with balanced MCATs and GPAs. If you really learn the material in your classes, you should be able to do okay on the MCAT. If you study, you should be able to have an okay GPA. Past performance is the best indicator (don't know if I'm spelling this word right) of future performance, so students with especially low scores on either factor are going to be problem admits.

 

[jbone]

As smart as you claim to be, you can't even spell decent?

It wasn't a typo.

douche.

Did I spell that correctly??

Loosen up and rub one off. Please.

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

Okay, I tend to be a grammar nazi, but poor spelling doesn't mean you're dumb. Some people can spell; some people can't.

As for the mcat/gpa debate, I don't know. Hard work is an important factor, and I would be worried about admitting anybody who can't show that they have worked hard in the past. One of the people at my school who has since left partially for academic difficulties apparently scored really high on his MCAT (I think especially the verbal section). However, he had a cr@ppy science GPA because he never studied. Unfortunately, he couldn't figure out how to study soon enough in his first year of med school, so he didn't hack it. If anything, our adcoms did him and the other applicants a disservice by admitting someone who didn't have adequate study skills going into school.

Overall, I guess that's why schools prefer applicants with balanced MCATs and GPAs. If you really learn the material in your classes, you should be able to do okay on the MCAT. If you study, you should be able to have an okay GPA. Past performance is the best indicator (don't know if I'm spelling this word right) of future performance, so students with especially low scores on either factor are going to be problem admits.

you spelled it correctly and fwiw, my sister is the smartest person I know and can't spell worth a damn.

as for MCAT and blah blah blah. I agree standardized testing is almost completely worthless. the main function is to keep wealth and power in the hands of the few in this country. keep out the riffraff, protect the elite. and in the case of medicine it seems to laregely weed out the non-aholes. just a personal observation...

 

[jkhamlin]

you spelled it correctly and fwiw, my sister is the smartest person I know and can't spell worth a damn.

as for MCAT and blah blah blah. I agree standardized testing is almost completely worthless. the main function is to keep wealth and power in the hands of the few in this country. keep out the riffraff, protect the elite. and in the case of medicine it seems to laregely weed out the non-aholes. just a personal observation...

So that's why just about every doctor I've been to is an "ahole." I got in though, where does that leave me?

 

[yanky5]

Generally, an osteopathic student is lacking in either the MCAT or GPA. I have yet to run into someone who has had a problem with both. Also there are many borderline applicants who cannot get into a MD school and decide that a DO would not be right for them. This keeps the stats down too because many of these students would get into a DO school. Instead they waste year after year trying to find a loop whole in the application process while DOs keep matching into every field. (i couldnt resist a little jab)

That is not true. I got a high MCAT and GPA (31 3.71) as did a lot of my friends and we are happy in an Osteopathic school. The thing is most pre meds have a stick up their ass and can't even dream of not getting into the highest ranked school and the best residency so they don't consider applying to DO schools therefore our application pool is slightly less competative. What happens is most of them don't get accepted and reapply a few times before getting accepted to a low ranked MD school. But the smart ones apply DO and MD like I did and are already in their second year while the dumb gunners are still interviewing. Although, that is not really true anymore since I hear more and more competitive people are applying every year as more students find out about the DO schools. My dean tells me that they every year the avg. GPA and MCAT continue to rise and the number of applicants keeps climbing for NYCOM. I think the caliber of the DO applicants will be even to MD applicants in five to ten years.