Vegan Diet for Dogs

Started by Angelus9
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Dsmoody23 said:
I remember a section from a medmicro class where we were taught that muscle is more or less sterile. Most of the contamination you read about in beef is introduced when it's ground up. So, theoretically, quickly cooking the outside of fresh, unground meat would make it effectively free of bacteria.

Parasites, on the other hand...
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Yup, that's true about meat..... it's why you can eat a steak rare but you should always have your hamburgers well done.... (I don't put a lot of faith in sanitary conditions at restaurants and mixing ground meat-- have worked in a restaurant and know that contamination happens)

Ahh flashbacks of food micro 🙂 Loved that class. Everyone became terrified of eating raw hotdogs...
 
FYI, there are AAFCO certified brands of vegetarian dog food. In general, they're also vegan other than one or two ingredients -- Vitamin D3, for example.

These are the two I'm most familiar with:
http://www.purinaveterinarydiets.com/Product/HAHypoallergenicDogFood.aspx
http://products.royalcanin.us/products/veterinary/canine/vegetarian-formula.aspx

Generally they're marketed toward allergy patients who can't ingest most (or any) meat-derived proteins, but there's also clearly a growing market for owners whose ethics make them uncomfortable feeding their pets standard meat-based diets. I strongly prefer those owners have tested and certified foods available to them instead of having to rely on questionable manufacturers or home recipes.

As an aside, I'm unsettled by some of what comes across as disparaging of other pet owners' ethics and feeding concerns in this thread. If you're going into SA clinical medicine, you're going to have clients who want to have vegetarian/vegan/raw/BARF/organic/whatever diets for their pets. I would strongly encourage those of you who are so upset by these concepts to find a way to communicate your skepticism of their health benefits in a way that is more diplomatic. 'Cause if I was a pet owner and my vet said some of the things I've read here? I'd leave that clinic and tell all my friends how rude the vet was. Just something to consider.
 
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I really like Purina HA (my dog was on it for a 12 week food allergy trial, and did great) but is it really AAFCO certified? I didn't know it was OK for long-term feeding.
 
Psorophoraferox said:
If you're going into SA clinical medicine, you're going to have clients who want to have vegetarian/vegan/raw/BARF/organic/whatever diets for their pets.
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One of the things that I LOVE about our nutritionist is that even though she used to work for Hills and likes their products she GETS this. And she's the first one to say that you need to find out what the CLIENT wants from a diet and then work WITH them, because preaching at them about YOUR ideas will just shut them down and they'll go else where or do their own thing and be afraid to communicate with you what they're really feeding.

She is happy to discuss raw, holistic, etc. options with you and find ways to make them work for you and your pet it at all possible. she definately earned my respect from that approach!
 
Psorophoraferox said:
As an aside, I'm unsettled by some of what comes across as disparaging of other pet owners' ethics and feeding concerns in this thread. If you're going into SA clinical medicine, you're going to have clients who want to have vegetarian/vegan/raw/BARF/organic/whatever diets for their pets. I would strongly encourage those of you who are so upset by these concepts to find a way to communicate your skepticism of their health benefits in a way that is more diplomatic.
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👍

I think we can all agree that the most important thing is the health of the animals, and if the owners decide to pursue a specific diet for their pets, we just need to make sure that they are well informed.
 
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Psorophoraferox said:
As an aside, I'm unsettled by some of what comes across as disparaging of other pet owners' ethics and feeding concerns in this thread. If you're going into SA clinical medicine, you're going to have clients who want to have vegetarian/vegan/raw/BARF/organic/whatever diets for their pets. I would strongly encourage those of you who are so upset by these concepts to find a way to communicate your skepticism of their health benefits in a way that is more diplomatic. 'Cause if I was a pet owner and my vet said some of the things I've read here? I'd leave that clinic and tell all my friends how rude the vet was. Just something to consider.
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I completely agree, but please remember that the way we could/would/are responding to the concerns of clients in real life and during actual conversation is very very different than what is posted on here. 🙂 Hope that reassures you. Different audiences in each type of interaction!
 
Psorophoraferox said:
As an aside, I'm unsettled by some of what comes across as disparaging of other pet owners' ethics and feeding concerns in this thread. If you're going into SA clinical medicine, you're going to have clients who want to have vegetarian/vegan/raw/BARF/organic/whatever diets for their pets. I would strongly encourage those of you who are so upset by these concepts to find a way to communicate your skepticism of their health benefits in a way that is more diplomatic. 'Cause if I was a pet owner and my vet said some of the things I've read here? I'd leave that clinic and tell all my friends how rude the vet was. Just something to consider.
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Ha, I would hope that any veterinarian, vet student, or vet school hopeful would be discerning, mature, and tactful enough in practice to objectively (hopefully) or at least nicely talk to a client about pet food choices, versus debating vet to vet in a veterinary internet forum. Sort of like when vets talk amongst themselves about something a crazy client did/does that they don't agree with... they would never discuss candidly their opinion of the client or the action, and if they needed to discuss it, they would certainly find a way to do it tactfully, so as not to lose business. For the most part... there ARE some my-way-or the-highway vets out there :/

I also haven't seen what I would consider any hugely rude things... I haven't really read everything word for word, but I thought the majority of the comments to each of the posters were pretty respectful and people had good evidence and arguments for both sides. It's just a discussion. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, and they're entitled to think other people are wrong. I'm pretty sure no one on here has been largely offended.... yet.
 
bunnity said:
I really like Purina HA (my dog was on it for a 12 week food allergy trial, and did great) but is it really AAFCO certified? I didn't know it was OK for long-term feeding.
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I could have sworn I saw that AAFCO seal of approval on a bag, but now looking for confirmation on the Internet I can't find anything! The Purina site says it's for "growth of puppies and maintenance of the adult dog", so... maybe? 😳
 
Psorophoraferox said:
I could have sworn I saw that AAFCO seal of approval on a bag, but now looking for confirmation on the Internet I can't find anything! The Purina site says it's for "growth of puppies and maintenance of the adult dog", so... maybe? 😳
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It's on the label under the ingredients list and trademark statement. It says something along the lines of feeding trial AAFCO for puppy growth and adult maintenance. I have a bag that I tried on my allergy dog, but her prefers Z/D.
 
vetme said:
I say if the animal is dumb enough to eat that stuff......well survival of the fittest
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I'm not sure you can apply survival of the fittest to an animal that wouldn't exist without artificial selection.


I love my veterinary nerdbook
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? What book? Sounds neat.



Also I thought it was theobromine that was toxic to dogs, but they could metabolize caffeine? I know they're analogs (or at least very close in structure) but thought they could handle the latter, just not the former.
 
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sumstorm said:
It's on the label under the ingredients list and trademark statement. It says something along the lines of feeding trial AAFCO for puppy growth and adult maintenance.
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Ah, thank you! I was starting to worry mid-term stress had caused me to go completely delusional. 😉
 
sumstorm said:
It's on the label under the ingredients list and trademark statement. It says something along the lines of feeding trial AAFCO for puppy growth and adult maintenance.
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I don't think that is likely, because those are completely different things. AAFCO statements should say one of two things: "all life stages" or "adult maintenance." All life stages = puppy food and pregnant/lactating bitch diet. It shouldn't be fed to adult dogs unless you want to predispose them to diabetes (agility dogs, working dogs, etc. are of course another matter). Adult maintenance is a food for animals with low energy demands, such as your typical couch potato that make up 99% of American pets. Weight management diets have no standard and basically mean whatever the company wants it to, so you'll never seen an AAFCO label for a weight management diet.
 
So, here is the deal.

I understand why people think it is ridiculous that they would force their pets to be on a vegan diet and project their ideologies on them. I used to be one of these people that thought it was ridiculous. If this is the reason you are doing it, yes, you are an ridiculous.

However, If I had any pets, I would seriously consider it. As long as your pet is getting the correct nutrients and can be healthy on one of these diets, why wouldn't you, as a vegan, also have your pet on a similar diet?

The reason that I am a vegan is not for ideological reasons. Factory farming is a pretty brutal reality in the world. I would not feel comfortable contributing to it whether Im buying food for myself or for a pet.
 
JulesMichy said:
I don't think that is likely, because those are completely different things. AAFCO statements should say one of two things: "all life stages" or "adult maintenance." All life stages = puppy food and pregnant/lactating bitch diet. It shouldn't be fed to adult dogs unless you want to predispose them to diabetes (agility dogs, working dogs, etc. are of course another matter). Adult maintenance is a food for animals with low energy demands, such as your typical couch potato that make up 99% of American pets. Weight management diets have no standard and basically mean whatever the company wants it to, so you'll never seen an AAFCO label for a weight management diet.
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First, HA and Z/D are NOT weight management diets. They are diets with hydrolyzed protein sources that are whole batch processed seperatly on cleared and cleaned machines. Secondly, I have no reason to lie; I don't have any investment in any of the foods, but I do have a store of foods for the half dozen+ pets that I own, so this is really simple for me to confirm:

Word for Word off the bag of Purina Veterinary Diets HA Hypoallergenic:

Animal feeding tests using Association of American Feed Control Official (AAFCO) procedures substantiate that Purina Veterinary Diets HA Hypoallergenic Canine Formula provides comples and balanced nutrition for growth of puppies and maintenance of adult dogs

Here's the one for Z/D

AAFCO statement: Use only as directed by your veterinarian. Animal feeding tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate that Prescription Diet z/d Canine ULTRA Allergen-Free(TM) provides comples and balanced nutrition for maintenance of adult dogs.

I have at least 4 other types of food that I can pull the labels off of.

And since I feel confident that you still won't 'think that is likely' read for yourself:

0
 
sumstorm said:
First, HA and Z/D are NOT weight management diets. They are diets with hydrolyzed protein sources that are whole batch processed seperatly on cleared and cleaned machines. Secondly, I have no reason to lie; I don't have any investment in any of the foods, but I do have a store of foods for the half dozen+ pets that I own, so this is really simple for me to confirm:

Word for Word off the bag of Purina Veterinary Diets HA Hypoallergenic:

Animal feeding tests using Association of American Feed Control Official (AAFCO) procedures substantiate that Purina Veterinary Diets HA Hypoallergenic Canine Formula provides comples and balanced nutrition for growth of puppies and maintenance of adult dogs

Here's the one for Z/D

AAFCO statement: Use only as directed by your veterinarian. Animal feeding tests using AAFCO procedures substantiate that Prescription Diet z/d Canine ULTRA Allergen-Free(TM) provides comples and balanced nutrition for maintenance of adult dogs.

I have at least 4 other types of food that I can pull the labels off of.

And since I feel confident that you still won't 'think that is likely' read for yourself:

0
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You really do make a habit of overreacting and getting hyperdefensive, don't you? I said that I didn't think it was likely that a bag would have both claims since, again, they mean completely different things. One is an energy-dense food for the purpose of growth, the other is a calorie-restricted food for maintaining a certain body condition. They shouldn't appear on the same bag because the two different types of diet do not serve the same purpose. The fact that it does says more about the AAFCO feeding trial than anything else, but that's another thread for another day. I never once accused you of lying or even implied that.

I'm well aware of what Z/D is. I threw in the bit about weight management because I thought it was interesting and for the people in this thread who kept saying that they don't know much about nutrition. Sort of a quick and dirty way of informing them about how to interpret AAFCO labels.
 
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JulesMichy said:
I don't think that is likely, because those are completely different things. AAFCO statements should say one of two things: "all life stages" or "adult maintenance." All life stages = puppy food and pregnant/lactating bitch diet. It shouldn't be fed to adult dogs unless you want to predispose them to diabetes (agility dogs, working dogs, etc. are of course another matter). Adult maintenance is a food for animals with low energy demands, such as your typical couch potato that make up 99% of American pets. Weight management diets have no standard and basically mean whatever the company wants it to, so you'll never seen an AAFCO label for a weight management diet.
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All life stages can be fed to puppies/lactating bitches, yes, but they are not harmful for maintenance purposes.

From the USFDA:
Regardless of the method used, the nutritional adequacy statement will also state for which life stage(s) the product is suitable, such as "for maintenance," or "for growth." A product intended "for all life stages" meets the more stringent nutritional needs for growth and reproduction. A maintenance ration will meet the needs of an adult, non-reproducing dog or cat of normal activity, but may not be sufficient for a growing, reproducing, or hard-working animal. On the other hand, an all life stages ration can be fed for maintenance. Although the higher levels of nutrients would not be harmful to the healthy adult animal, they are not really necessary.
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You are the one who said that it wasn't likely, and what AAFCO labels 'should' say and giving an inaccurate label reading lesson. You could have just assumed that I do actually know how to read and that I would give a relatively accurate reading since I bothered to go look at the bag of food and locate the statement for Psoro.
 
Coquette22 said:
All life stages can be fed to puppies/lactating bitches, yes, but they are not harmful for maintenance purposes.

From the USFDA:
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We just had this in my canine and feline nutrition class not even a week ago. Yes, feeding an "all life stages" food to dogs can have harmful effects. Most owned dogs/cats are spayed or neutered and extremely inactive, which predisposes them toward diabetes. The energy density of a food intended to meet the caloric needs of a growing or producing animal is not appropriate for most pets. Unless an owner is willing to sit down and do a DER and food dosage calculation for every one of their pets, the likelihood of them feeding it at a level that is appropriate for maintenance is very slim.

sumstorm said:
You are the one who said that it wasn't likely, and what AAFCO labels 'should' say and giving an inaccurate label reading lesson. You could have just assumed that I do actually know how to read and that I would give a relatively accurate reading since I bothered to go look at the bag of food and locate the statement for Psoro.
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You said "something along the lines of" which actually implies that you hadn't read the label and were simply misremembering.
 
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JulesMichy said:
Yes, feeding an "all life stages" food to dogs can have harmful effects.
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If the supposed "harmful effects" are just that a more energy-dense food could lead to obesity more easily, that's a pretty weak argument against all life stages foods for adult animals. It's not hard to restrict food or increase activity to keep a pet's weight stable.

FYI, every animal will vary in their metabolism, some of them significantly compared to the standard formulas, so calculating calorie requirements out for each one isn't very reliable. Monitoring body condition and weight are much better indicators of how many calories and animals needs.
 
Chaco said:
If the supposed "harmful effects" are just that a more energy-dense food could lead to obesity more easily, that's a pretty weak argument against all life stages foods for adult animals. It's not hard to restrict food or increase activity to keep a pet's weight stable.
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Really? I think it's a pretty strong argument, actually, particularly when there are more appropriate diets readily available and no reason (aside from prescription foods) to feed an energy-dense food to an obese-prone animal.

As for the difficulty of restricting food or increasing activity, I heartily disagree with you there. The vast majority of owners do find it incredibly difficult to restrict their pet's access to food from an emotional standpoint, and equate feeding their pet with love. You can try telling them to restrict the amount of food/treats they give to Fluffy, but good luck with your compliance rate. Whereas if you tell them, "You can feed the exact same amount of food, just switch to this diet here, it's better for them!" watch your compliance rates go though the roof. And if you've figured how a way to get every indoor cat on the planet to receive a sufficient amount of exercise, please publish this miracle!
 
The point of debate seems to be that the food itself is harmful, which it is not when given in moderation, same as pretty much everything else.

What clients do with it does not make the food itself harmful. That's like saying water is harmful because it can be given in excess. EVERYTHING is harmful when given in excess.
 
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HopefulAg said:
The point of debate seems to be that the food itself is harmful, which it is not when given in moderation, same as pretty much everything else.

What clients do with it does not make the food itself harmful. That's like saying water is harmful because it can be given in excess. EVERYTHING is harmful when given in excess.
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No, my point is that it isn't an appropriate diet. I would not feed an adult (non-working or producing) dog an "all life stages" food any more than I would a cat food. It isn't meant for them. It is formulated to meet the caloric needs of a growing and/or producing animal, not for maintenance.

Giving an obese-prone pet, which MOST dogs and cats in America are due to being spayed/neutered and kept mostly indoors, an "all life stages" food as their staple diet is the equivalent of someone with a family history of obesity and diabetes eating at McDonald's every day. Is McDonald's itself necessarily harmful? No. Does it pose an unnecessary risk for that particular individual? Yes.
 
Wellness did a recent recall on their canned cat foods based on inadequate thiamine levels or something along those lines...

http://www.fda.gov/Safety/Recalls/ucm245108.htm

It's amazing how just these little differences in levels of this and that can make such a huge difference for the pets being fed this food. This is what concerns me about vegan and other home diets for pets. CAN you monitor the levels of these ingredients and assure that they are provided in the correct amount? If so, how? (I'm genuinely curious as to how it's possible.)
 
Well my dog eats it cause even hypoallergenic food wasn't enough. So now she's happy and isn't scratching sooooo i'm happy!
 
Don't greyhounds require meat in their diets? I read that somewhere but not certain if it is true.
 
seansie said:
As long as your pet is getting the correct nutrients and can be healthy on one of these diets, why wouldn't you, as a vegan, also have your pet on a similar diet?
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Um....maybe because dogs/cats can't get the correct nutrients from such a diet and it's completely biologically inappropriate, even more so than most mediocre kibbles?

Cats especially. They are obligate carnivores, period. Sure, at the absolute most, you could make them a vegan diet and add all sorts of vitamin and powdered protein supplements to get all the correct animo acid profiles - they could survive, but not thrive. Because like TT said:

twelvetigers said:
CAN you monitor the levels of these ingredients and assure that they are provided in the correct amount? If so, how? (I'm genuinely curious as to how it's possible.)
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You really can't unless you have your own home lab set up with HPLC (and lord knows what else) when it comes to all the different crazy supplements you would have to add in very specific proportions to a vegan diet. A homecooked meat diet is slightly more doable just because you know you're getting a complete amino acid profile that is fully digestable....but vegan? No.
 
My $0.02:

I'm vegan, but don't feed my dog a vegan diet. It would be too expensive for me and I don't trust the formulations. In general, I don't think they're appropriate for his well-being. Although, I do think Psorophoraferox made a solid post. Additionally, I do have two very minor points to add (which might be obvious, so I apologize if that's the case):

A) When you buy any food for your pet, you are making a decision for it. Your pet is not autonomous (as we here all know) and we all make these decisions for our animals. If I let my dog loose in a grocery store, I don't he'd be thinking about balancing his nutritional needs, and I'd be a bad pet owner if I only thought about what he would prefer. By deciding on a particular brand of food, I am thinking of what's "best" for him, which is a value judgment in of itself, even if a decision is as instantaneous as, "This is on sale".

B) Talking about what animals are "supposed" to eat reeks of anthropomorphism of evolution and biology. There is no intent in biology, only adaptation. Cats in the wild eat particular critters because they can and it doesn't kill them. Because of their genetic history, they are well-adapted for it, much like we're well-adapted to eating cooked foods. A dog's evolutionary ancestor might have been adapted a certain way, but our human fingers have been selecting dogs for function and appearance for so long that they hardly thrive as feral animals; of course, they can survive out on their own for a period of time.

It would be difficult to make a full-on comparison with ancient diets in order to pass judgment on whether say Purina or Hill's food is more "natural". Personally, I'm not a fan of such discussions and I'd much rather see the research on how well an animal lives on a particular food based on a trial of some sort. Extruded, highly processed kibble doesn't sound very natural to me, but it works pretty darn well at keeping my pets alive.

I apologize if my post comes off as a bit rant-y or pretentious, but I have a bit of a background in genetics & epistemology (pre-DVM), so it is a subject that interests me. In any case, I do agree with much of what has already been posted.
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
Oh God, did I really just bump this from two months ago?
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Yes, because this can't be said often enough: 🙂

Originally Posted by seansie
As long as your pet is getting the correct nutrients and can be healthy on one of these diets, why wouldn't you, as a vegan, also have your pet on a similar diet?

WhtsThFrequency said:
Um....maybe because dogs/cats can't get the correct nutrients from such a diet and it's completely biologically inappropriate, even more so than most mediocre kibbles?

Because like TT said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by twelvetigers
CAN you monitor the levels of these ingredients and assure that they are provided in the correct amount? If so, how? (I'm genuinely curious as to how it's possible.)

You really can't unless you have your own home lab set up with HPLC (and lord knows what else) when it comes to all the different crazy supplements you would have to add in very specific proportions to a vegan diet. A homecooked meat diet is slightly more doable just because you know you're getting a complete amino acid profile that is fully digestable....but vegan? No. __________________
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awaring1 said:
My dog would. If you have any kind of produce he will sit and drool at you. If you give him an apple he will flip out like a kid on cocaine.

The fact that I am a vegetarian is a complete coincidence. I feed him normally and he is just strange anyway.
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OT: you're vegetarian? me too 🙂 if we both wind up at ISU, we'll have to have tofu nights, haha :laugh:
 
Haha that is funny. My cat LOVES romaine lettuce. She's a freak. Just goes to show that we still don't know everything about dogs and cats in terms of diet, so saying any one way of feeding is the best way is by nature erroneous.
 
Going back to the toxic grapes topic...

I am not one for nutrition, never found it extremely interesting despite its importance to general health. I knew chocolate was toxic in high doses, I did not know that grapes were toxic until I read SDN. Last year my friend, and new dog owner, called me very concerned because her dog (a dachshund) had eaten raw onions out of her salad. Since I had no idea she called up her vet who insisted that the dog be induced to vomit. After giving the dog peroxide she did NOT vomit 😕. I am assuming the peroxide was ancient and simply water at that time. But regardless, her dog survived with no ill side effects of the onions or H2O2.

My assumption is this: Humans have varying allergies and intolerances. One person can have milk, while another almost dies from it. Maybe animals can have the same variabilities. Some animals may have a higher tolerance to grapes, chocolate, and onions (not just the fact that a larger dog has to consume more). Im not saying that anyone should not be alarmed or should lack concern if their dog consumes any of these, it is always better to go to the vet and have them checked. I just would like to acknowledge that variation does occur and some animals can handle these toxins better than others.


Also a side note, which is not backed up by any article, i am just recalling reading/hearing about this. But people have exposed themselves to toxins in increasing doses over a long period of time and have built up resistance to the toxin. When consuming a larger dose of the toxin, they have no ill side effects (similar to The Princess Bride 😀 or the formation of anti-venom).

Food for thought, ending my ramble now 🙂
 
SouthJerseyBell said:
Some animals may have a higher tolerance to grapes, chocolate, and onions (not just the fact that a larger dog has to consume more). Im not saying that anyone should not be alarmed or should lack concern if their dog consumes any of these, it is always better to go to the vet and have them checked. I just would like to acknowledge that variation does occur and some animals can handle these toxins better than others.
Click to expand...


A good assessment. I think you are probably right. I have seen some dogs handle toxins with ease (welll, relative ease of course), and others kick the bucket. There's always individual variation in life.
 
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