Vegan Diet for Dogs

[Angelus9]

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http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/03/10/vegan.dog.diet/index.html?hpt=C2#

"The notion of a holistic approach that gives pet owners more control over their pets' diet has been gaining ground since 2007, when a melamine contamination of commercial pet food caused people to take a closer look at what they were feeding their pets, says Donna Spector, a veterinary internal medicine specialist who runs SpectorDVM, an animal nutrition consultancy.
"That was a turning point that led to more home-cooked meals and raw food diets. Vegetarianism is another subset of that backlash," she says.
Spector and six other pet experts who spoke with CNN conceded -- some more reluctantly than others -- that most dogs could biologically live on a vegan diet. But doing so requires substantial attention to creating a balanced diet that makes up for the loss of animal protein with substitutions of beans, soy and, to a lesser extent, vegetables and grains."

 

[PocoCalypsoQH]

I have seen a lot of this vegan and vegetarian pet food stuff going around. Honestly, I think it is ridiculous. Yes of course they can live on it...it's just a matter of creating the correct nutrient profile. But COME ON! It's a dog! It is supposed to eat other animals!! Our co-op in town sells vegetarian dog and cat food (on which I could not find any certification, such as AAFCO), and people obviously buy it. To me it just seems like you're projecting yourself onto your pet. If you want to be a vegetarian, fine. It's weird, but there is clearly a valid argument for people eating less meat healthwise, etc. Cats and dogs are supposed to eat meat, their whole biology is geared for it.

 

[awaring1]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRSLQu-d6ZQ[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Dsmoody23]

I saw this article a few hours ago.

I'm of the persuasion that it's the owners choice if health isn't compromised, but some of the statements in that article made me cringe.

The line about letting their dog 'live by the same ideology', made me want to slap a vegan.

 

[skittles12]

I agree that it seems pretty ridiculous. Dogs and cats are carnivores--they naturally eat meat. And your dog living by the same ideology? Dogs don't have ideology, they don't care about your ethical reasons for veganism. I can understand if you want to branch out from big commercial pet food, but I don't think this is the way to do it. Too many things can go wrong with this picture...

 

[nuevaburra]

The line about letting their dog 'live by the same ideology', made me want to slap a vegan.

Lol. I'm a former vegan, and that makes even ME want to slap a vegan. (Should I slap myself? I wish there was an emoticon for that. I guess this is close enough )

Rant /On:

Why do people have to be so self-righteous about food? It's bad enough having people self-righteous about religion, politics, cars or lack thereof, and the clothes they wear. It's not that I think dogs and people can't be healthy on a plant-based diet, but to go around making ridiculous unfounded claims about the medical superiority of a certain diet bugs me. Ok anyone who uses the word "detox" to mean something other than the drunktank at the local jail bugs me.

Rant /Off.

 

[No Imagination]

Why do people have to be so self-righteous about food? It's bad enough having people self-righteous about religion, politics, cars or lack thereof, and the clothes they wear.

IMO, the majority of people who preach it (not all the people who practice it) - are simply being self-righteous. They see it as some sort of moral or health superiority...

Sorry, I had to throw this one in the mix.

 

[168135]

I agree that it seems pretty ridiculous. Dogs and cats are carnivores--they naturally eat meat.

Dogs are omnivores. That's why dogs can do well on vegetarian/vegan diets and cats cannot.

Also... just curious... how much hunting would a domestic dog do in a natural environment? Are they scavengers or do they take down a lot of their own prey?

Had a teacher who's dog got very very sick and almost died from eating a squirrel carcass on a hiking trail, which makes me wonder if this was just a freak event or if they do naturally scavenge without getting ill.

 

[nuevaburra]

I
Sorry, I had to throw this one in the mix.

OMG I LOVE IT! It is so me on the left lol 🙂

 

[No Imagination]

how much hunting would a domestic dog do in a natural environment? Are they scavengers or do they take down a lot of their own prey?

Wild dogs, especially in a pack, will definitely hunt. I've heard several (secondhand) stories of them bringing down deer here in Mississippi (in fairness, Deer in Mississippi are about the size of a large dog - compared to deer up north).

I don't know what percentage of their diet would come from scavenged vs. hunted, but I would suspect more from hunted.

Also, a dog that has lived and is accustomed to eating raw/captured meat is going to fare much better then a household dog that ate a dead (rotting?) squirrel carcass.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Dogs are omnivores. That's why dogs can do well on vegetarian/vegan diets and cats cannot.

Also... just curious... how much hunting would a domestic dog do in a natural environment? Are they scavengers or do they take down a lot of their own prey?

Had a teacher who's dog got very very sick and almost died from eating a squirrel carcass on a hiking trail, which makes me wonder if this was just a freak event or if they do naturally scavenge without getting ill.

There's a pretty famous picture set of 2 starving dogs down south, after hurricane katrina, trying to take down a bull. Suffice to say, it doesn't end well for the dogs. I won't repost, because the photos are disturbing, but they're out there if you want to search.

It's a sad thing to look at, but also illustrates how quickly they'll get back into live hunting.

 

[that redhead]

The first thing is that cats are obligate carnivores and forcing them to eat vegetarian or vegan food is not right. While I know that dogs are omnivores, I always got the sense that they ate/eat (are wolves a suitable wild counterpart for comparison?) mostly meat. I doubt most dogs would choose a carrot over a piece of chicken if you gave them the choice.

SH, there's a difference between eating a rotting and potentially infected squirrel carcass and actually hunting food. I'd imagine a lot of animals would get sick off that kind of thing and maybe not so much off of just raw meat. Most diets recommend a gradual shift over to a new food (such as raw, which seems to be growing in popularity or at least publicity) in the hopes of keeping down gastric upset.

I agree with you dsmoody regarding slapping them. Dogs do not have ideologies in regards to food and it's ridiculous to foist that on a pet. In my opinion, as an owner your primary concern about food should be nutritional needs and quality of food and while perhaps these can be met with a vegetarian or even vegan diet, I tend to think most people would do it wrong and screw their dog over nutritionally. All because you don't want to eat meat or use animal products.

To be honest, I think this is a group of slightly more extreme vegans. The ones that I've known didn't even attempt to force their beliefs on other people, let alone pets 🙄

 

[Jamr0ckin]

I think this is plain ridiculous. I hope every DVM that encounters a cat being fed this diet sets the owners straight.

Ugh, what's next? Healthy Choice Steamers ?

 

[libster06]

And your dog living by the same ideology? Dogs don't have ideology, they don't care about your ethical reasons for veganism.

YES! 👍

I won't get into my thoughts on vegans/vegetarians but I will say that I have personally seen a case in which the dog was being undernourished by a "raw food diet". It was recommended that the owner try and supplement his food. I really think this is a rising issue with the "green movement" that owners don't really think as being harmful, when in reality they should definitely talk with their vet about before they go off and play nutritionist (I know the lady did in the article, but many owners, as in the case above, do it on their own). Just as with the cat physiologically needing meat as mentioned above, I'm sure there are many other dietary considerations that veganism could interfere with. Secondly, the whole dental aspect of feeding kibbles is a pretty big one too, IMO.

 

[awaring1]

I doubt most dogs would choose a carrot over a piece of chicken if you gave them the choice.

My dog would. If you have any kind of produce he will sit and drool at you. If you give him an apple he will flip out like a kid on cocaine.

The fact that I am a vegetarian is a complete coincidence. I feed him normally and he is just strange anyway.

 

[Artery]

I won't get into my thoughts on vegans/vegetarians but I will say that I have personally seen a case in which the dog was being undernourished by a "raw food diet".

Well, I totally agree with you, there are people who don't correctly feed a raw diet (for instance, they think that it's okay to just feed the meat, and leave out internal organs, bones, etc). But in the case of someone who has done their research, and correctly feeds the raw diet, can the raw diet really be considered dangerous? I'm asking because my sisters both feed their dogs/cats raw, and there is never a problem, and their health check-ups regarding nutrition are always top notch.

 

[AngSchmange]

Wild dogs, especially in a pack, will definitely hunt. I've heard several (secondhand) stories of them bringing down deer here in Mississippi (in fairness, Deer in Mississippi are about the size of a large dog - compared to deer up north).

I don't know what percentage of their diet would come from scavenged vs. hunted, but I would suspect more from hunted.

Also, a dog that has lived and is accustomed to eating raw/captured meat is going to fare much better then a household dog that ate a dead (rotting?) squirrel carcass.

But comparing dogs to a more natural relative makes me think of Coyotes, which hunt mainly rats and smaller 'furry woodland creatures'. I don't know if dogs last wild ancestor hunted in a pack like wolves (taking down larger prey), or hunted like Coyotes in a pair (hunting rats, rabbits, smaller prey). But if dogs fully and truthfully came from wolves, like those in N. America or N. Europe, than I would assume they hunted in packs and took down larger prey. Gotta love evolution 🙂

 

[AngSchmange]

My dog would. If you have any kind of produce he will sit and drool at you. If you give him an apple he will flip out like a kid on cocaine.

The fact that I am a vegetarian is a complete coincidence. I feed him normally and he is just strange anyway.

HAHA this is SO awesome!! My dog LOVES grapes, and sometimes likes carrots, like what is up with that! I'm glad he's not alone in his weird behaviors.

OT, but hyenas are often fed fruit at a zoo, and while I QUITE realize that Hyena's are actually feliforms and thus more closely related to cat species than other caniforms, it was quite amusing to me to watch the two hyena's at my zoo have an amazing time with a cucumber we fed them one day 😀 Although I think in the wild they're more on the carnivorous side...if not obligate carnivores. I have no idea as I studied the phylogeny and evolution of hyenas and other carnivores, not the nutritional aspects.

I am LOVING this thread!

 

[MustLoveCats]

HAHA this is SO awesome!! My dog LOVES grapes, and sometimes likes carrots, like what is up with that! I'm glad he's not alone in his weird behaviors.

Eeeek! Grapes?!?!

 

[su_grad2007]

HAHA this is SO awesome!! My dog LOVES grapes, and sometimes likes carrots, like what is up with that! I'm glad he's not alone in his weird behaviors.

Hahaha, my dog eats anything he thinks he's not supposed to have. He actually drank half my cafe mocha this morning. I thought grapes were toxic to dogs.

 

[Dsmoody23]

Hahaha, my dog eats anything he thinks he's not supposed to have. He actually drank half my cafe mocha this morning. I thought grapes were toxic to dogs.

I tried subbing carrots for awhile as treats, so I could feel like I wasn't fattening my fat dog with training rewards.

You can get most dogs to want anything as long as you withhold it. I spent a day sporadically eating carrots in front of her, while making cheerful noises. After a bit she started drooling. Then she ate them with zeal.

But... alas, it didn't last. She got tired of them after a few days and would hide them in the back hall.

My dog would make a sh*tty vegan.

 

[No Imagination]

Well, I totally agree with you, there are people who don't correctly feed a raw diet (for instance, they think that it's okay to just feed the meat, and leave out internal organs, bones, etc). But in the case of someone who has done their research, and correctly feeds the raw diet, can the raw diet really be considered dangerous? I'm asking because my sisters both feed their dogs/cats raw, and there is never a problem, and their health check-ups regarding nutrition are always top notch.

I don't know nearly enough nutrition to comment on any of the nutritional dangers of RAW/BARF diets for the animal (and even if I did, its a cantankerous subject).

The dangers associated with them, as I understand are: Immunodeficient animals at greater risk of infection (from bacteria in food). Apparently diabetic cats = NO RAW diets, or so we were taught.

Also, increased shedding of potential pathogens. I buy this one... and when I have young kids, I doubt I would give my dog any (much) raw meat. I mean, the same 'bugs' that would prevent you from eating a raw steak can get into the animal, and even if the animal is not sick, they can shed them into the environment.

Hahaha, my dog eats anything he thinks he's not supposed to have. He actually drank half my cafe mocha this morning. I thought grapes were toxic to dogs.

They are, raisins more so (not sure why, perhaps less water content = higher concentration of the toxin (although the mg should be the same)

 

[NStarz]

The vets I've spoken to don't like raw because there hasn't been much (any?) peer-reviewed scientific research proving it's benefit as opposed to other foods or even that it isn't harmful.

I don't feed my pets raw--I also don't feed them commercial diets (Hill's, Purina). My dog's food can be considered lightly cooked (at least according to the label). What I like about it is that it needs to be refrigerated (no preservatives), though that would turn off a lot of people because it's not as convenient. I can also see the veggies (carrots and peas) in the food (which you can't see in other foods) so I know they're there. My cat eats the same brand of food, formulated for cats especially. (PM me if you're interested, I don't want to push pet food on here 😉).

What worries me about raw is that you can handle it perfectly from the time you get it to the time your dog eats it. But you have no idea what happened to that meat from slaughter to the supermarket. There are thousands of people handling it and I don't want to risk my pets on something like that.

Also, you run into problems with raw when you have small children, elderly, or immuno-suppressed people in your home, whom can be affected by pathogens and nasty little bugs much worse than you can.



I don't agree with feeding cats exclusively dry food (because they are obligate carnivores and need meat to thrive), and most of the dry food commercially offered (at least what I've seen) is based on corn.

ETA: No Imag beat me to the punch while I was typing my longish post!

 

[Artery]

I don't know nearly enough nutrition to comment on any of the nutritional dangers of RAW/BARF diets for the animal (and even if I did, its a cantankerous subject).

The dangers associated with them, as I understand are: Immunodeficient animals at greater risk of infection (from bacteria in food). Apparently diabetic cats = NO RAW diets, or so we were taught.

Also, increased shedding of potential pathogens. I buy this one... and when I have young kids, I doubt I would give my dog any (much) raw meat. I mean, the same 'bugs' that would prevent you from eating a raw steak can get into the animal, and even if the animal is not sick, they can shed them into the environment.

THANK YOU for not attacking me and actually offering evidence. I totally understand what you mean. I mean, obviously, everything is a case-by-case basis...there are dogs/cats that do better on raw and dogs/cat that just don't. And yes, the shedding of pathogens is a good point and one that I hadn't thought about. The only reason I asked is because I've heard people make some generalizations about raw diets, saying things like nobody should EVER feed their dog raw, when in some cases it may not be such a horrible thing. Same goes for kibble! 👍

 

[Jamr0ckin]

Hahaha, my dog eats anything he thinks he's not supposed to have. He actually drank half my cafe mocha this morning. I thought grapes were toxic to dogs.

Grapes ARE toxic to dogs... and coffee/caffiene should be considered a toxin to dogs as well.

 

[awaring1]

HAHA this is SO awesome!! My dog LOVES grapes, and sometimes likes carrots, like what is up with that! I'm glad he's not alone in his weird behaviors.

OT, but hyenas are often fed fruit at a zoo, and while I QUITE realize that Hyena's are actually feliforms and thus more closely related to cat species than other caniforms, it was quite amusing to me to watch the two hyena's at my zoo have an amazing time with a cucumber we fed them one day 😀 Although I think in the wild they're more on the carnivorous side...if not obligate carnivores. I have no idea as I studied the phylogeny and evolution of hyenas and other carnivores, not the nutritional aspects.

I am LOVING this thread!

We have an iguana that we feed a vegetarian diet. Whenever we put food in her cage (which is very large and on ground level) my dog sticks his nose in as far as he can tries to steal the food out. He doesn't beg for any other food but he just LOVES fruits and veggies. He never steals food but will dig through a backpack for 10 minutes trying to find an apple buried at the bottom.

 

[AngSchmange]

Hahaha, my dog eats anything he thinks he's not supposed to have. He actually drank half my cafe mocha this morning. I thought grapes were toxic to dogs.

Hahaha mmm. Chocolate isn't too good either 😛 Not trying to feed him grapes, but when we eat them, he wants! He's a 95 pound lab (def some sort of mix...) who usually gets what he wants when we're not looking lol. Just like DSmoody was saying haha. My cat actually today too was looking at me like he REALLY wanted a grape while I was picking from a bowl. He just licked it lol. Animals are weird! gotta love 'em.

 

[Artery]

The vets I've spoken to don't like raw because there hasn't been much (any?) peer-reviewed scientific research proving it's benefit as opposed to other foods or even that it isn't harmful.

I don't feed my pets raw--I also don't feed them commercial diets (Hill's, Purina). My dog's food can be considered lightly cooked (at least according to the label). What I like about it is that it needs to be refrigerated (no preservatives), though that would turn off a lot of people because it's not as convenient. I can also see the veggies (carrots and peas) in the food (which you can't see in other foods) so I know they're there. My cat eats the same brand of food, formulated for cats especially. (PM me if you're interested, I don't want to push pet food on here 😉).

What worries me about raw is that you can handle it perfectly from the time you get it to the time your dog eats it. But you have no idea what happened to that meat from slaughter to the supermarket. There are thousands of people handling it and I don't want to risk my pets on something like that.

Also, you run into problems with raw when you have small children, elderly, or immuno-suppressed people in your home, whom can be affected by pathogens and nasty little bugs much worse than you can.



I don't agree with feeding cats exclusively dry food (because they are obligate carnivores and need meat to thrive), and most of the dry food commercially offered (at least what I've seen) is based on corn.

ETA: No Imag beat me to the punch while I was typing my longish post!

NStarz, thanks for summarizing everything that I've been thinking
I personally do not feed my animals raw (although I have seen dogs thrive just fine on it without any damages, but who knows, like you said, there is little peer-reviewed scientific literature on it), and I too do not believe in feeding cats exclusively dry food. You are awesome 👍

 

[twelvetigers]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20953132

You are lucky that your dog isn't more sensitive to them.

 

[AngSchmange]

NStarz, thanks for summarizing everything that I've been thinking
I personally do not feed my animals raw (although I have seen dogs thrive just fine on it without any damages, but who knows, like you said, there is little peer-reviewed scientific literature on it), and I too do not believe in feeding cats exclusively dry food. You are awesome 👍

There was a show on Animal Planet a while ago about a woman who fed her cats (I think like 5 or so) raw meet, but she cooked it for a little while before serving it, just to kill some of the bacteria that may be in the ground meat, which after taking microbiology wouldn't have been enough to really kill everything. I feed my cats wet food in the morning so they get something besides dry food, then Purina at night. I like the mix, I think it's working pretty well so far 🙂.

 

[HelloNello]

anthropomorphizing at its best. lolzzz

 

[AngSchmange]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20953132

You are lucky that your dog isn't more sensitive to them.

Wow. I only skimmed the summary and didn't look for a full PDF, but I wonder how much these dogs ate, like if they raided the grape bowl and ate more than a few. TBF I've only seen my dog eat one grape like twice, but he's a big lab so a little different than these small dogs, at least I would think. And it's my dad's dog, and I live with my mom lol. I'll def pass the message along to him though, no grapes for Harley!

 

[NStarz]

One of my dogs once ate insulation (yes the stuff in walls that's basically glass). That was a fun experience 😉. That same dog also ate an entire bag of Hershey kisses. We called poison control and apparently it was such a big issue because milk chocolate has very little cocoa powder or whatever is poisonous in it.

 

[twelvetigers]

Yeah, baking chocolate is the one that will cause big trouble (though that doesn't mean I would feed the dog a hershey's bar or smth).

Raisins are worse than grapes, I think. And steak sauce is made from raisins, FYI, so keep that A1 to yourself as well.

According to Wiki (because I don't have time to dig around much right now):

he estimated toxic dose of grapes is 32 g/kg (1.1oz/kg) (grams of grapes per kilograms of mass of the dog), and for raisins it is 11–30 g/kg. (0.39 – 1.06 oz/kg) [5] Dogs suffer acute renal failure after ingesting 3 grams per kilogram of raisins or dry matter of grapes. (Dry matter is calculated as 20% of grape weight).

Also, I *swear* I read something about the likelihood that some dogs are more sensitive to the toxin than others, so keep that in mind as well.

 

[Dsmoody23]

There was a show on Animal Planet a while ago about a woman who fed her cats (I think like 5 or so) raw meet, but she cooked it for a little while before serving it, just to kill some of the bacteria that may be in the ground meat, which after taking microbiology wouldn't have been enough to really kill everything. I feed my cats wet food in the morning so they get something besides dry food, then Purina at night. I like the mix, I think it's working pretty well so far 🙂.

I remember a section from a medmicro class where we were taught that muscle is more or less sterile. Most of the contamination you read about in beef is introduced when it's ground up. So, theoretically, quickly cooking the outside of fresh, unground meat would make it effectively free of bacteria.

Parasites, on the other hand...

 

[AngSchmange]

I remember a section from a medmicro class where we were taught that muscle is more or less sterile. Most of the contamination you read about in beef is introduced when it's ground up. So, theoretically, quickly cooking the outside of fresh, unground meat would make it effectively free of bacteria.

Parasites, on the other hand...

I wonder what kind of meet people are feeding their cats and/or dogs, like if they're buying steaks or something of that sort, or ground beef? That'd make a big difference in how well one should cook it to kill microbes.

 

[HelloNello]

Wow. I only skimmed the summary and didn't look for a full PDF, but I wonder how much these dogs ate, like if they raided the grape bowl and ate more than a few.

4 grapes can be toxic to a 16 ish pound dog

1-2 grapes can be toxic in a small dog

etc. etc.

I love my veterinary nerdbook


onions are also toxic

 

[No Imagination]

Yeah, baking chocolate is the one that will cause big trouble (though that doesn't mean I would feed the dog a hershey's bar or smth).

The big thing about not letting your dog have ANY chocolate is you do not want them to develop a sweet tooth. My dog has never had chocolate, and if I held a candy bar in front of him, he would sniff it, lick it, then try some. After that, he would be all over me next time I had a candy bar.

Same thing with grapes...

Also, I believe cats are just as susceptible to theobromine (toxic component of chocolate) as dogs, they just never really develop a taste for it, so its not really an issue.

And, my apologies if this has already been said - but I don't think they know the toxic properties of grapes in dogs (this fact alone makes me want to go back to my biochem lab for a few months 🙁 God I miss it, and hate studying!)

 

[HelloNello]

Hahaha, my dog eats anything he thinks he's not supposed to have. He actually drank half my cafe mocha this morning.

Part of what makes chocolate toxic is the caffeine. Be careful with that one :/

 

[HelloNello]

And, my apologies if this has already been said - but I don't think they know the toxic properties of grapes in dogs (this fact alone makes me want to go back to my biochem lab for a few months 🙁 God I miss it, and hate studying!)

It isn't know; They do know it causes renal failure, but don't know why :/

Maybe some of us can figure it out in the future *hopeful*



Sorry for all the posts in a row. I kept learning new stuff and wanted to share.

 

[dyachei]

I remember a section from a medmicro class where we were taught that muscle is more or less sterile. Most of the contamination you read about in beef is introduced when it's ground up. So, theoretically, quickly cooking the outside of fresh, unground meat would make it effectively free of bacteria.

Parasites, on the other hand...

In our zoonoses class, we were taught about the amount of parasites we eat without realizing it. Scary business. Makes you rethink sushi, for sure.

But I'm also concerned about contamination. Even though muscle is sterile, the people that handle it may not be. And how many people really sear their dog's raw/BARF diet?

The biggest issue for me isn't that people do it. It's that people do it with very little knowledge. And salmonella is ubiquitous in raw chicken, it seems.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc339295/

this is one such source.

 

[su_grad2007]

Grapes ARE toxic to dogs... and coffee/caffiene should be considered a toxin to dogs as well.

Oh yeah, I made my dog throw up my mocha latte.

 

[libster06]

Well, I totally agree with you, there are people who don't correctly feed a raw diet (for instance, they think that it's okay to just feed the meat, and leave out internal organs, bones, etc). But in the case of someone who has done their research, and correctly feeds the raw diet, can the raw diet really be considered dangerous? I'm asking because my sisters both feed their dogs/cats raw, and there is never a problem, and their health check-ups regarding nutrition are always top notch.

I think someone addressed, and I was reluctant to bring it up because I dont have *expert* knowledge on it, but I know things from talking to previous vets about this subject, but the bacteria in raw meat can be potentially harmful because of the shedding and intestinal issues. However, if you're feeding free range or grass fed meats they are less likely to have bacteria strong enough to withstand our gastric juices... so that would be your call.

 

[No Imagination]

However, if you're feeding free range or grass fed meats they are less likely to have bacteria strong enough to withstand our gastric juices... so that would be your call.

What is the correlation between free range/grass feed and a bacteria's ability to withstand a monogastrics stomach pH?

Ab resistance, bacterial load, ect. I could see an argument... but whats the rationale?

P.S. I love how this thread about vegan diets turned to a thread about BARF

 

[libster06]

What is the correlation between free range/grass feed and a bacteria's ability to withstand a monogastrics stomach pH?

Ab resistance, bacterial load, ect. I could see an argument... but whats the rationale?

P.S. I love how this thread about vegan diets turned to a thread about BARF

Cornell did a study and found that grass fed beef had 80% less of the E coli strain that causes illness in humans. They said that grain feeding increases stomach acid, s othe E coli in that beef become acid resistant, but the ones in grass fed beef were not resistant to acids (likely to die when encountering the gastric acid). Pretty interesting I think... wouldn't have guessed that in a million years.

*I was NOT referring to chicken... I'm pretty sure that's still just as potently E coli-c as it ever was*

 

[No Imagination]

Cornell did a study and found that grass fed beef had 80% less of the E coli strain that causes illness in humans. They said that grain feeding increases stomach acid, s othe E coli in that beef become acid resistant, but the ones in grass fed beef were not resistant to acids (likely to die when encountering the gastric acid). Pretty interesting I think... wouldn't have guessed that in a million years.

Huhh, I knew grain overload would cause a decrease in pH, but never knew simply reading them grain did the same thing. Pretty interesting stuff!

 

[vetme]

Grapes ARE toxic to dogs... and coffee/caffiene should be considered a toxin to dogs as well.

Well, EVERYTHING is toxic in the right amount

One of my dogs once ate insulation (yes the stuff in walls that's basically glass). That was a fun experience 😉. That same dog also ate an entire bag of Hershey kisses. We called poison control and apparently it was such a big issue because milk chocolate has very little cocoa powder or whatever is poisonous in it.

I say if the animal is dumb enough to eat that stuff......well survival of the fittest

I think someone addressed, and I was reluctant to bring it up because I dont have *expert* knowledge on it, but I know things from talking to previous vets about this subject, but the bacteria in raw meat can be potentially harmful because of the shedding and intestinal issues. However, if you're feeding free range or grass fed meats they are less likely to have bacteria strong enough to withstand our gastric juices... so that would be your call.

Interesting

 

[NStarz]

I say if the animal is dumb enough to eat that stuff......well survival of the fittest

I'm sorry, did you just call my dog stupid? Insulation tastes sweet, that's why dogs (not just mine) like to eat it. My dog is a certified therapy dog, CGC certified, and a decorated agility dog, so I'd really appreciate it if you didn't call her names.

 

[Dsmoody23]

I'm sorry, did you just call my dog stupid? Insulation tastes sweet, that's why dogs (not just mine) like to eat it. My dog is a certified therapy dog, CGC certified, and a decorated agility dog, so I'd really appreciate it if you didn't call her names.

 

[NStarz]

Hey, if someone made fun of your dog, I'd bet you stick up for him/her, too. She is fourteen and was basically the only thing that got me through my two year stint in and out of hospitals, so I'm a little protective over her. Sorry to take things so seriously 🙄