I don't Want To Start Another War on Here But Guys I Was Just Checking Out Stats...

Hey LP1CW,

It's not just about numbers when it comes to getting into schools. I think they have to look at the whole story of the person. I understand your argument that you should demonstrate a certain level of competence. One could say that she may not have proven herself. I have a friend with numbers a lot better than her and he's at Trinity now. He didn't get in here in the states.

But the way I look at, we don't know here story and apparently they saw something beyond the stats on a page. That's a good thing. We're more than just numbers. I know I am. I know you are. lets worry less about others and what they're doing and more about ourselves.

yep

EDIT: On second thought, I believe a



would be more appropriate.

yeah, if you really go through that website, you'll find more profiles like that (assuming they're real...). i totally agree. since they were denied opportunities in the past, they get this kind of stuff now. i never really bought into the whole two-wrongs-make-a-right bit.

oh well. yea, you'll probably be flamed (and me too, for agreeing)

apparently they saw something beyond the stats on a page

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umm, yea, like race?

We're more than just numbers

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very true, but its an issue of equity (or perceived lack thereof).

i've probably said enough/too much already...

umm, yea, like race?

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yup...wrong or bad or whatever, exactly what i was thinking.

LP without having to start another war here either i have to say something.

You have to understand that people who come from uneducated enviroments, from people who struggle to make ends meet daily (etc), it's a huge deal pulling a 3.4/30. When you are trying to make ends meet, when you know the conditions your parents are living in (etc again) , it's very hard to consistently be great versus people who have always been around educated people, whose families pushed them to study and who didn't have much to think about in their lives.

Yet agian i do understand that the above are not an indication for race all the times but most of the times they are.

I believe that's what the adcoms see...

I hate to be the one pointing this out, but NOBODY is entitled to medical school. No GPA or MCAT score or extracurricular activity entitles you to a medical education.

If tomorrow all medical schools in this country decided that they want to admit only applicants with a huge, hairy mole in the middle of their noses, it's their prerogative. If you don't have the mole, too bad. You don't get in.

It's really unprofessional and immature to be so whiny and think you're entitled to something. The AAMC and Medical Schools make the rules. Deal with it.

I hate to be the one pointing this out, but every citizen is ENTITLED to equal protection under the laws irrespective of their race. Each citizen is entitled to their civil rights as plainly stated in the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

??2000d - No person in the United States shall, on the ground of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.?

Applicants who are discriminated against are not asking for an entitlement to a medical school slot. They are simply asking for their promised civil rights.

Originally posted by SpiritiualDuck
Hey LP1CW,

It's not just about numbers when it comes to getting into schools. I think they have to look at the whole story of the person. I understand your argument that you should demonstrate a certain level of competence. One could say that she may not have proven herself. I have a friend with numbers a lot better than her and he's at Trinity now. He didn't get in here in the states.

But the way I look at, we don't know here story and apparently they saw something beyond the stats on a page. That's a good thing. We're more than just numbers. I know I am. I know you are. lets worry less about others and what they're doing and more about ourselves.

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The only thing they "saw beyond the stats on the page" was that she was an African-American student applying to medical school. Judging from the information on the profile, this student really hasn't done anything profound at all in the extra-curricular section (intramural basketball...). Plenty of premed folks have volunteered in 3rd world countries, done research for years and have first authorship publications, taken on leadership positions in service organizations, etc...and many of them STILL get rejected with numbers that are much higher than this applicants numbers. This is clearly a case of affirmative action...and I wince when I think of the HUNDREDS of more qualified applicants to Hopkins and Penn that received a thin envelope in the mail that started out with the words, "We're very sorry to inform you..."

"Lets worry less about others and what they're doing and more about ourselves." Umm...this doesn't make sense. There are only X number of seats in any given medical school...and usually...there are 10-20X applicants to that medical school. The number of seats in the medical school is a limiting factor...there are clearly not enough to go around so one would hope that the few who do receive admission did so on merit and because their academic and extracurricular background was better than those of the folks who were denied admission. In other words...for every seat that goes to Applicant A...that's one less seat for applicants B, C, D, E, etc. This is how capitalism is designed to work...If someone just earned a promotion at their job...that measn that their former coworkers (the people they were competing against for the promotion)..were denied that promotion because someone else performed better at the job than they did (well..at least we would hope)...but unfortunately...medical school admissions...just like life in general..is not fair

So while this URM applicant gets to study under the tutelage of some of the nations' finest physicians and medical researchers at Hopkins or Penn...applicants who were more qualified academically (and more qualified in terms of ECs)...will be soaking up the sun somewhere in the Caribbean

Originally posted by Tezzie
LP without having to start another war here either i have to say something.

You have to understand that people who come from uneducated enviroments, from people who struggle to make ends meet daily (etc), it's a huge deal pulling a 3.4/30. When you are trying to make ends meet, when you know the conditions your parents are living in (etc again) , it's very hard to consistently be great versus people who have always been around educated people, whose families pushed them to study and who didn't have much to think about in their lives.

Yet agian i do understand that the above are not an indication for race all the times but most of the times they are.

I believe that's what the adcoms see...

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Or you could come from rich parents who only cared about athletics and didn't support your decision to persue medicine in college and left you out to dry. So this person would have to work just as hard to make ends meet and not having a family that emphazied academics made adjustment to college difficult. This why the whole AA thing should be on a case to base basis, not because you're black or hispanic.

How about we turn it to some of the foreign schools system?

A match list based only on grades. Those who have the top grades, make the top schools.

No personal statements, no ECs nothing! Just your GPA and MCAT!

Fair or not?

We are not advocating eliminating the use of personal statements or ECs as factors of admission. We are advocating eliminating the use of RACE as a factor of admission.

Originally posted by Shinken
I hate to be the one pointing this out, but NOBODY is entitled to medical school. No GPA or MCAT score or extracurricular activity entitles you to a medical education.
It's really unprofessional and immature to be so whiny and think you're entitled to something. The AAMC and Medical Schools make the rules.

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People always use this argument, but it's completely senseless. It's the same as saying, "life's not fair, get over it." Yeah, sure life's not fair, but US (supposedly) was built on a principle that people should have equal opportunity to pursue their goals, at least as far as government paid programs go. Hence, reasonable attributes and qualifications do "entitle" you to pursue school, whether it's undergrad or grad (especially public schools). If this wasn't true, there wouldn't be that whole Michigan Law School trial.

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
We are not advocating eliminating the use of personal statements or ECs as factors of admission. We are advocating eliminating the use of RACE as a factor of admission.

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Yes but it was *YOU* who talked about equality. If that was the case then why should the adcom care about if you had the flip burgers 9 hours a day at BK in order to get that 3.4 from UofWhatever-Extension versus the 4.0 uptown kid at Harvard?

.

but US (supposedly) was built on a principle that people should have equal opportunity to pursue their goals, at least as far as government paid programs go

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Well...at one point in time, "people" meant whites, not Native Americans or Blacks or Chinese.

I love all this talk about civil rights and equal protection under the laws. I wonder how many beatings would a black person have received a few years ago if he complained to his Master about civil rights and equal protection.

Like someone once said..."It's payback time!!".

Originally posted by Outer Space
Yeah, sure life's not fair, but US (supposedly) was built on a principle that people should have equal opportunity to pursue their goals, at least as far as government paid programs go.

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Yeah sure, but equal opportunity has never equated to equal success. You have the opportunity to apply. It doesn't mean you'll be accepted.

Has it ever occured to you that this person (if s/he actually exists) may choose not to list all possible identifying information that could link him/her to their all-encompassing MDapplicants.com profile?

So here's the answer: whether or not it's fair, you can't do anything to change it (at least for the next 20 years like the UMich case).

Underpriviliged whites get seats too. Flame them.

Like someone once said..."It's payback time!!".

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well, i guess i was wrong, two wrongs make a right after all.

I wonder how many beatings would a black person have received a few years ago if he complained to his Master about civil rights and equal protection.

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a "few years ago"??? Master??? this is 2003, right? i don't see the need to be so obviously inflammatory unless you have nothing substantive to say.

Okay, I have nothing to say about the merits or problems of affirmative action that hasn't been said umpteen times. I do, however, have a message for the OP and anyone else who spends time scrutinizing mdapplicants or worrying about who got into med school in past years.

KEEP YOUR EYE ON THE BALL. Seriously. It is not a good use of your, I'm sure, very limited time to sit around thinking about how much more worthy you are than someone else. Do the best that you can to maximize your chances of getting in, and let everyone else worry about themselves.

You have chosen a profession that requires sensitivity, awareness of the social issues, and a sense of fairness. The African or Hispanic populations are highly underrepressented in medicine. If you have worked in an inner city area, you would understand how difficult it is for an African American child to succeed because not only does he lack the financial means, but he also lack the cultural capital. While working in DC for the past 2 summers, I have met some of the most amazing kids...kids who are growing out of single-parent homes...kids who do not have food on the table every night...kids who are fighting not to become alcoholics like their parents...Please extend the much needed compassion and understanding to these underrepresented groups (rather than exert anger or even pity).

As for stats, we all know that numbers only go so far in this "admissions game." It's still early in the admissions cycle, and don't let your anger get the best of you. I'm sure with your amazing stats, you'll recieve admissions into all of your top choices.

PrincetonRocks, I bow down to you.

You very eloquently said what I wanted to say. Instead my post came out angy and made me look like a jerk. Thank you!

Originally posted by Tezzie
LP without having to start another war here

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Too Late!

What if we look at it from another point of view....

Maybe our "hypothetical applicant" will bring her Hopkins degree back to the inner-city and provide medical attention to other under-served URMs. I think there are plenty of patients out there who will benefit greatly by being treated by her, someone who knows her patients personally *and* who has an incredible degree, than by Whitey the Man M.D. with his shiny credentials. I think balance is important, and Hopkins has the right to not admit only people with 3.8 and 38S.

Plus I agree with whoever said that she was probably facing sub-par circumstances to achieve what she did. You make it sound as though she's barely literate. I'm sure Hopkins and the many other schools that accepted her were confident in her skill.

Let my people go

Ok, and is posting this thread letting you get in any quicker/faster into Hopkins/Penn? I guess we all like venting, I hope this thread helps you find some peace and comfort.

For all u know, her parents might have been connected with Hopkins Med, after all we allknow how Bush got into Yale. Dont just assume its because of her skin color, she might have connections, just like many people on this board have with people on the admissions committee.

I'm sure Hopkins has enough URM applicants to fill their school with 36+ MCAT scoring URMs. The real mystery is not how someone got into Hopkins with those pathetic stats over white or asian dudes/dudettes, but how she got in over other high scoring URMs. Now that you take race out of the equation, it gets even more bewildering. She probably brought more to the table than she wrote on the profile, or the profile itself is inaccurate.

Hope that helps.

I think she should get into medical school because she is black.

Yes, "payback time", indeed. I wonder how many proponents of preferences by race feel the same way as you.

I remember the last time someone tried to justify racial preferences in admissions by stating that the URMs given special preferences will go back and help underserved communites. They extolled one of these URMs in particular. The placed him on a pedestal and shown all of the world how he went back to the inner city with his MD and helped his fellow URMs. And they asked: "Bakke's scores were higher, but who made the most of his medical school education? From whom did California taxpayers benefit more?"

So from whom did the California taxpapers benefit more from? Allen Bakke or Patrick Chavis?


If the goal is to give good healthcare to underserved communities, then we should start a contract based system where an applicant given special preferences MUST serve X number of years in an underserved community. Every applicant regardless of race can compete for these special prefrences. Because of the larger applicant pool under this system, underserved communites will get better doctors. Not violating the 14th amendment of the United Constitution is another *small* bonus of this program.

Yeah, SP is right. Considering the average black matriculant has 24.4/3.35, there must be another factor that jumped her ahead of some more qualified URM applicants at Hopkins. Legacy or donorship perhaps?

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
Not violating the 14th amendment of the United Constitution is another *small* bonus of this program.

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What did the Supreme Court just rule on the Michigan law school case? Follow it, learn it, and accept it. Its the rule of law.

Howard and Meharry who produce the overwhelming majority of black doctors, its already their mission to have the doctors go back to the underserved communities. They are the school who generally take the low scoring black applicants in the first place.

I agree with Street Philospher. Its something more than meets the eye if the application is even valid.

I just realized that she was a fine arts/architecture major. There you go. Her 4.0 in finger painting with a specialization in crayola are what set her apart. Hope that's a good lesson for some of you applicants who still have time. Remember, nothing saves your sub-3.0 science GPA like a 4.0 in fine arts.

Cheers

What did the Supreme Court rule in the UM case? Enlighten me.

The Supreme Court ruled that they can legislate from the bench. Hope that helps.

What happened to the two monkeys? Everybody loved the two monkeys. Bring them back!

bla bla bla whine whine whine. who cares? Nobody on SDN will ever change anything involved in the admissions process. No matter what you say, its been said.

Her non-BCPM GPA must have been impressive if she managed a 3.53 cumulative. A 2.7ish is a B-. Not the best. But at the same time, not exactly close to failing.

This is the way I see it. YOU have to have the desire and drive to become a doctor. Pointing fingers at everyone else isn't going to bring you any closer to getting your MD. It is up to you to maxmize your application so that you WILL reach your desired goal. Who gives a **** is someone else doesn't have the same grades or scores as you? What does that have to do with you and your application? Don't spend so much time worrying about everyone else, and work harder yourself.

Racism n.

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Draw your own conclusions.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racism

this was her senior thesis

This is the way I see it. The OP worked very, very hard and achieved a 34S/3.8. He did research, volunteered and did everything within his power to be a competitive applicant. However, a extremely low scoring matriculant who obviously worked substantially less than him reminded him of one very large factor that he could not improve on no matter how hard he tried. His skin color. He does not feel it is fair to be judged upon his race.

Yet, you tell him to mind his own business and study harder.

I wonder, would you give the same advice and tell a black applicant to mind his own business if medical schools were discriminating in favor of whites?

Originally posted by PrincetonRocks
You have chosen a profession that requires sensitivity, awareness of the social issues, and a sense of fairness. The African or Hispanic populations are highly underrepressented in medicine. If you have worked in an inner city area, you would understand how difficult it is for an African American child to succeed because not only does he lack the financial means, but he also lack the cultural capital. While working in DC for the past 2 summers, I have met some of the most amazing kids...kids who are growing out of single-parent homes...kids who do not have food on the table every night...kids who are fighting not to become alcoholics like their parents...Please extend the much needed compassion and understanding to these underrepresented groups (rather than exert anger or even pity).

As for stats, we all know that numbers only go so far in this "admissions game." It's still early in the admissions cycle, and don't let your anger get the best of you. I'm sure with your amazing stats, you'll recieve admissions into all of your top choices.

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The problem is, many of the underrepresented minorities that end up getting in are just students with lower stats who came from middle to upper class homes. Being a minority does not necessarily mean they were poor or had any disadvantages to speak of.

It seems discrimination is only discrimination if it affects minorities anymore.

SpongeBobby:


which IIT?

the Illinois or India?

Okay, I didn't read anything except for a few posts because I am in a rush...but I wanted to tell everyone a story.

I worked in a law firm for several years while going to school. To get to the point, there was a woman who had gone to a top 10 law school, and she told me she face discrimination a lot from her male classmates because they thought she only got in because of affirmative action. The fact is she had a higher GPA and LSAT score than the majority of them, but that didn't change them thinking she got in because she was a woman (back in the 70's). So for all of you complaining, if you think every black or hispanic or even woman classmate got into a top 10 because of affirmative action, face the facts, they might have better numbers than even you. If you show your ignorance, it is your own problem.

I agree with 2cent

I met an african-american girl a couple of years ago that was graduating WashU with a 3.7 and had a 38 MCAT.

GM2 & Tezzie,

We will never know whether all URM matriculants were lifted up b/c of the race card . . . but it will certainly be assumed by the other students. It is call a two-sided sword.

This AA system is Political Correctness 101. If we really wanted to help disadvantaged people, it would be based on other parameters, like financial, marital / family history, etc.

What we actually have is a generalization that an entire segment of society is oppressed and disadvantaged. Just another stereotypical classification used to grant entitlements.

I am all for converting AA to contract based system where lower credential applicants get preference for admission but they have to agree to practice in inderserved communities or places of medical need for 5 years after residency.

Then the mission and spirit of AA can live on in a fair and just manner. As someone said, the world is not fair. Get used to it. However, when tax dollars come into the picture, I do have a say as to how those funds are distributed. The field cannot be tilted by a generalization about skin color.

BTW, what % minority is deemed enough to qualify as a URM? 1%, 25%, 51% ?