2.0 GPA getting into Medical School?

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mikejames

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So basically it is saying you can get in this school with a 2.0 GPA ( Meharry Medical School)?
http://admissions.mmc.edu/page.asp?SID=22&Page=1448

Do you guys know of anyone ever getting into Medical School with a very low GPA in the 2's?

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you wont be competitive and will not get in anywhere with a 2.0 straight outta undergrad.
 
I really do not think that is what that means. Many schools (Brown, EVMS, etc) say that they recommend at LEAST a C, but a B or so is competitive. And that is just for those prereqs. It does not mean that you can get a C in all those prereqs and think you have a chance of getting in. A C here and there won't kill you, but a 2.0 WILL. :)
 
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So basically it is saying you can get in this school with a 2.0 GPA ( Meharry Medical School)?
http://admissions.mmc.edu/page.asp?SID=22&Page=1448

Do you guys know of anyone ever getting into Medical School with a very low GPA in the 2's?

That's not what the page is suggesting. I am interpreting the copy as saying that you shouldn't get below a C in any of the prerequisite classes.

There are always exceptions, many of them notable, but by-in-large, you will not get into US allopathic schools with a 2.0 GPA.
 
They're saying their minimum GPA is a 2.0, not that they will ever necessarily accept one. But hey, if a 2.0 is good enough to become POTUS, why not a doctor? When we screw up, we will kill at most one person at a time.
 
Um... I don't think you can really get in anywhere with a below 3.0 GPA. It's already a risky bet if the GPA is 3.4 or less....
 
This is kind of off topic but sort of related but I always like to say this to people so here goes:

I think that it's funny/interesting/ a shame/ or whatever that a person can get 86/87's on every exam in every class in college and not be "worthy" of becoming a doctor. Why is a B average so bad? There are many B students who can explain concepts/problems better than A students (who may have just memorized better for that particular exam). 80% winning/shooting whatever percentage in sports is outstanding, 85% yield in chemistry lab is pretty good, but 86% is not "qualified" enough for medical school. We live in such a funny society.
 
I wouldn't want a surgeon who couldn't muster above a 2.0 in college, working on my heart...
 
Lowest I've heard of personally was a friend of mine with a 3.1. He had sterling EC work, though, and it was to a DO school.

you need to do some more MDApps searching
 
I don't care how my doctor did in undergraduate school. I care about how my doctor did in medical school and how he did in his residency. Then how good of a doctor is he? That is what I care about.

I wouldn't want a surgeon who couldn't muster above a 2.0 in college, working on my heart...

I'm sure there are plenty of doctors who got a 3.8 GPA in undergraduate school, finished in the middle of their medical school class, went onto a so-called big time residency, and are crappy doctors. I would rather want a doctor who had a 3.0 undergraduate GPA, finished in the middle of their medical school class and actually enjoies what they do and not go through the motions and do a sloppy job. I know of a doctor that finished with a 4.0 GPA as an undergraduate, finished near the top of his medical school class, did a big time surgery residency and is a crappy doctor because he does sloppy work. This doctor didn't even cut the skin straight (the skin has to heal over itself in a crooked line resulting in some parts of the skin having a pump after it was healed and another part is smooth, and he didn't even stitch two of the inscions correctly. We won't even talk about the bruising around the belly button that was not supposed to happen.

I also know of a doctor who finished with a 4.0 undergraduate GPA and finished in the top of his class in medical school, and is an interventional radiologist. This doctor is mean. People don't like to work with him. He thinks his work takes priority over everyone else and he bi***s out loud when someone has to take time doing another job and it results in him getting behind schedule.

Then comes another doctor that I know that had a 3.0 undergraduate GPA, went to Oklahoma for medical school, did mediocre residency, and is now one of the most well known clinicians in his specialty. He became well known because he had a passion for what he was doing and is a really nice person. He treats everyone nice, even the nursing assistants. I don't see to many doctors asking a nursing assistant how their life and day is going (not were I worked anyways). But this doctor does and people really like him for that.

People don't like a doctor that is stuck up and thinks they are better then everyone else.
 
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I think that it's funny/interesting/ a shame/ or whatever that a person can get 86/87's on every exam in every class in college and not be "worthy" of becoming a doctor. Why is a B average so bad?
It's good enough for the presidency...
 
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I think that it's funny/interesting/ a shame/ or whatever that a person can get 86/87's on every exam in every class in college and not be "worthy" of becoming a doctor. Why is a B average so bad? There are many B students who can explain concepts/problems better than A students (who may have just memorized better for that particular exam). 80% winning/shooting whatever percentage in sports is outstanding, 85% yield in chemistry lab is pretty good, but 86% is not "qualified" enough for medical school. We live in such a funny society.
Why would you take the second best job applicant? There are 10,000+ applicants with a 3.7 or better, so why WOULDN'T you take the higher grades?
 
Why would you take the second best job applicant? There are 10,000+ applicants with a 3.7 or better, so why WOULDN'T you take the higher grades?

Maybe a 3.7+ who applied and did not get in can answer that, there are plenty out there.
 
Why? There are people who get into schools with sub-3.0 GPA's. They are few and far between, but they do exist. Even here on these foums.

Not saying they're not out there, just that I don't know any of you guys personally. Can't say that I know the people on MDApps personally either, but I hope exmike will pardon me if I don't pursue his *****ic advice to go forth in search of them. Didn't mean to confuse the OP.

On this whole 3.0 is better than a 4.0 thing (all other things being equal of course), how could you ever justify this, to the "A+" kid you just turned down especially? To use the basketball analogy, why would you ever want an 80% foul shooter on the line instead of your 90% guy? It's not that the guy with the "B" average isn't qualified to be a doc, it's that there are literally thousands of people every year who are better qualified.

I'm sure there are plenty of doctors who got a 3.8 GPA in undergraduate school, finished in the middle of their medical school class, went onto a so-called big time residency, and are crappy doctors. I would rather want a doctor who had a 3.0 undergraduate GPA, finished in the middle of their medical school class and actually enjoies what they do and not go through the motions and do a sloppy job. I know of a doctor that finished with a 4.0 GPA as an undergraduate, finished near the top of his medical school class, did a big time surgery residency and is a crappy doctor because he does sloppy work. This doctor didn't even cut the skin straight (the skin has to heal over itself in a crooked line resulting in some parts of the skin having a pump after it was healed and another part is smooth, and he didn't even stitch two of the inscions correctly. We won't even talk about the bruising around the belly button that was not supposed to happen.

I also know of a doctor who finished with a 4.0 undergraduate GPA and finished in the top of his class in medical school, and is an interventional radiologist. This doctor is mean. People don't like to work with him. He thinks his work takes priority over everyone else and he bi***s out loud when someone has to take time doing another job and it results in him getting behind schedule.

Then comes another doctor that I know that had a 3.0 undergraduate GPA, went to Oklahoma for medical school, did mediocre residency, and is now one of the most well known clinicians in his specialty. He became well known because he had a passion for what he was doing and is a really nice person. He treats everyone nice, even the nursing assistants. I don't see to many doctors asking a nursing assistant how their life and day is going (not were I worked anyways). But this doctor does and people really like him for that.

People don't like a doctor that is stuck up and thinks they are better then everyone else.

Maybe it's your Probationary Status, but I have a sneaking suspicion you're making this stuff up. I work with and have worked with a lot of physicians, and don't know a single one's undergraduate gpa or medical school class rank, much less both for three separate docs. Where they did residency or fellowship training yes in many cases, but not that. I doubt I'll remember my own undergrad gpa in 10-15 years.
 
This is kind of off topic but sort of related but I always like to say this to people so here goes:

I think that it's funny/interesting/ a shame/ or whatever that a person can get 86/87's on every exam in every class in college and not be "worthy" of becoming a doctor. Why is a B average so bad? There are many B students who can explain concepts/problems better than A students (who may have just memorized better for that particular exam). 80% winning/shooting whatever percentage in sports is outstanding, 85% yield in chemistry lab is pretty good, but 86% is not "qualified" enough for medical school. We live in such a funny society.

Well, I'm sure if there was time for every single B student applicant to prove he understood the material to the medical schools they would be a shoo-in but, oh wait, that's not how it works. Grades are just more concrete. Besides plenty of 'B students' get in. They write a great essay, get good LORs and interview well. That's how they prove they are "qualified." For your theoretical '86% students' who don't get in, it's probably because the application as a whole just was not good enough. I know a lot of less stellar students who I would trust as a physician because they are caring and they listen well but in this process, presentation is everything and that includes having good grades.
 
I wouldn't want a surgeon who couldn't muster above a 2.0 in college, working on my heart...

You will learn in med school that nothing you did in college has any meaning, and then in residency that nothing you did in med school has any meaning. That someone made it to the point that he is performing heart surgery means he proved himself somewhere along the line, although for all you know he tanked college and had to do a lengthy postbac and multiple MCATs to get into med school, and even then maybe didn't peak until the later years of med school. He's still probably a better surgeon than many of the people who get into med school with a 3.5 -- the proof is in the pudding and the fact that he got to where he did. And FWIW, you never really know how your doctors did in college, or even in med school. You just know that they somehow made it through. About half of all physicians out there graduated in the bottom half of their med school class. Food for thought.
 
Not saying they're not out there, just that I don't know any of you guys personally. Can't say that I know the people on MDApps personally either, but I hope exmike will pardon me if I don't pursue his *****ic advice to go forth in search of them. Didn't mean to confuse the OP.

On this whole 3.0 is better than a 4.0 thing (all other things being equal of course), how could you ever justify this, to the "A+" kid you just turned down especially? To use the basketball analogy, why would you ever want an 80% foul shooter on the line instead of your 90% guy? It's not that the guy with the "B" average isn't qualified to be a doc, it's that there are literally thousands of people every year who are better qualified.



Maybe it's your Probationary Status, but I have a sneaking suspicion you're making this stuff up. I work with and have worked with a lot of physicians, and don't know a single one's undergraduate gpa or medical school class rank, much less both for three separate docs. Where they did residency or fellowship training yes in many cases, but not that. I doubt I'll remember my undergrad gpa in 10-15 years.

you dont make any sense, n00b

you said the lowest you know of is a 'friend' that got into DO with a 3.1 Even if half the people on mdapps lie, there are dozens that got into allo schools with below a 3.1
Yeah, really *****ic.
 
I wouldn't want a surgeon who couldn't muster above a 2.0 in college, working on my heart...

Hmm, people can change and I have proven that to myself. I didn't used to be a good student till college rolled around (luckily, it happened early enough). There are plenty of non-traditionals on the forum who've made a 180 degree turn around from their undergraduate years. Of course, I'd agree that anyone who can't muster up a 2.0 is inept or has too many problems in their lives to be thinking about medical school. Some time off to improve or to get their affairs in order is probably a necessity.
 
you dont make any sense, n00b

you said the lowest you know of is a 'friend' that got into DO with a 3.1 Even if half the people on mdapps lie, there are dozens that got into allo schools with below a 3.1
Yeah, really *****ic.

Did you read my post man? The guy at Kirksville I know personally. He got in with a 3.1, he's the lowest I know of personally. I don't know the people on MDApps personally. I don't doubt that there are literally dozens of allo matriculants with <3.1 to be found there, should I care to search for them. Even if I did, I still wouldn't know them personally. Are we arguing semantics? By personally I don't mean "in my total life experience and on the internet", I mean "people I've met and know at least their first name". Why is this hard for you to understand? Do you see now why your post came across as dumb?
 
You don't get it do you? I know these doctors personally. That is how I know that stuff.

Your basketball analogy doesn't win in an argument. I would rather take 65% foul shooter with a good 3-point shotting percentage. There are many variables that go into making a good basketball player. Foul shooting is about the last thing coaches look at when deciding if they want this or that player. Heck, O'Neal is a bad foul shooter but he was (he no longer is what he was) one of the best players to ever play in the NBA.

You have to take everything into acount. Not one single person said a 3.0 is better then a 4.0. It is the person behind the 3.0 and 4.0 that matters. Once you are out of school, your GPA no longer sets you apart from others around you (beyond the first job if you go into the job world right after undergraduate school...this doesn't apply to medicine).

If you want me to, I can give you the emails to the doctors I'm talking about.

The world works very similar to this.

You work hard in high school to get into the best undergraduate school you can. Once you are in undergraduate school it doesn't matter what you did in high school. While in undergraduate school you work hard to get into graduate school or get the best GPA you can and try to get those internships that can help lead you to a job. Once you get into graduate school what you did in undergraduate school no longer matters. Once you get that first job what you did as an graduate student no longer matters (beyond the development of certain skills).

What you were able to do in your first job matters more in your second job then what you have ever done in your whole life.

LawDoc has already pointed out that what you did as an undergraduate student no longer matters when you are in medical school and when you are a resident it no longer matters what you did in medical school. Once you are done as a resident it no longer matters what you did when you are doing a fellowship. Once you are done with your fellowship it no longer matters because it is what you are CURRENTLY doing as a praticing doctor that matters. Once you retire, if you didn't do anything outstanding, then everything you did your life becomes dust.

There are reasons why companies look for people with experience over new graduates. Graduating from undergraduate school with a 3.0 or above shows you have the ability to put up with crap on a daily basis. Employers like that. Employers really are not interested in what degree you get as an undergraduate. They care more that you got a degree and have developed the basic skills of communication, work ethic, critical thinking, and so forth.

A lot of graduate programs are designed for specific jobs.

Not saying they're not out there, just that I don't know any of you guys personally. Can't say that I know the people on MDApps personally either, but I hope exmike will pardon me if I don't pursue his *****ic advice to go forth in search of them. Didn't mean to confuse the OP.

On this whole 3.0 is better than a 4.0 thing (all other things being equal of course), how could you ever justify this, to the "A+" kid you just turned down especially? To use the basketball analogy, why would you ever want an 80% foul shooter on the line instead of your 90% guy? It's not that the guy with the "B" average isn't qualified to be a doc, it's that there are literally thousands of people every year who are better qualified.



Maybe it's your Probationary Status, but I have a sneaking suspicion you're making this stuff up. I work with and have worked with a lot of physicians, and don't know a single one's undergraduate gpa or medical school class rank, much less both for three separate docs. Where they did residency or fellowship training yes in many cases, but not that. I doubt I'll remember my undergrad gpa in 10-15 years.
 
Chuck Norris got into med school with a 0.0 GPA. Then again, he did get a 60 on his MCAT.
 
Um, Q got into med school with a 0.0 GPA. True story. She did, however, have about the most awesome real life MCAT score I'd ever heard of. She is truly awe-inspiring. (wish she'd rub some of that smart onto me!)
 
You don't get it do you? I know these doctors personally. That is how I know that stuff.

Your basketball analogy doesn't win in an argument. I would rather take 65% foul shooter with a good 3-point shotting percentage. There are many variables that go into making a good basketball player. Foul shooting is about the last thing coaches look at when deciding if they want this or that player. Heck, O'Neal is a bad foul shooter but he was (he no longer is what he was) one of the best players to ever play in the NBA.

You have to take everything into acount. Not one single person said a 3.0 is better then a 4.0. It is the person behind the 3.0 and 4.0 that matters. Once you are out of school, your GPA no longer sets you apart from others around you (beyond the first job if you go into the job world right after undergraduate school...this doesn't apply to medicine).

If you want me to, I can give you the emails to the doctors I'm talking about.

The world works very similar to this.

You work hard in high school to get into the best undergraduate school you can. Once you are in undergraduate school it doesn't matter what you did in high school. While in undergraduate school you work hard to get into graduate school or get the best GPA you can and try to get those internships that can help lead you to a job. Once you get into graduate school what you did in undergraduate school no longer matters. Once you get that first job what you did as an graduate student no longer matters (beyond the development of certain skills).

What you were able to do in your first job matters more in your second job then what you have ever done in your whole life.

LawDoc has already pointed out that what you did as an undergraduate student no longer matters when you are in medical school and when you are a resident it no longer matters what you did in medical school. Once you are done as a resident it no longer matters what you did when you are doing a fellowship. Once you are done with your fellowship it no longer matters because it is what you are CURRENTLY doing as a praticing doctor is doing. Once you retire, if you didn't do anything outstanding, then everything you did your life becomes dust.

Would you not agree that a 4.0 is a better indicator of medical school success than an 3.0? The schools themselves certainly see it this way. Again, I'm sure there are folks out there with B averages who'd make great doctors, and some of them are lucky enough to do so. Of course what you did in undergrad no longer matters once you get into medical school, but to get into med school you have to jump through the hoops. One of these hoops is an A average, another is a respectable MCAT score, another is work experience/volunteerism/clinical experience, another is the ps, another is interviewing skill. Any one of which can be compensated for by any of the others, thus allowing schools to judge the fitness of the applicant as a person instead of just some numbers. But my argument is that a 4.0 makes a person better qualified to be a doctor than a 3.0 all other things being equal. I didn't say anything about not taking the whole person into consideration; in fact, my inital post said I know a guy who got in with a 3.1 but he made up for it in other areas. You either misread my post or are disagreeing with this, and if it's the latter I'm saying you're wrong. Taken alone (all other things being equal), the 4.0 deserves the spot over the 3.0 based on merit. This isn't a beauty contest, nor are people granted MD's just because they really really want one and know in their heart they'll make a great doctor. Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree.

GPA's are one of the few objective and universal data available, so it carries a good deal of weight. It suggests to adcoms how well they can expect the applicant to perform once they matriculate. Low gpa but high MCAT? It tells them that this guy might not be performing now, but he has the potential to do so if given the chance. Add to that a great ps (describing the motivation that'll get him through the tough times coming up), stellar EC's (showing the ability to be a leader and/or selflessness that one would like to see in a physician), and a dearth of clinical experiences (saying I know what I'm getting into and still want it more than anything), and you've got a route for those who have to work a little harder for it in the book learning department.
 
Would you not agree that a 4.0 is a better indicator of medical school success than an 3.0? The schools themselves certainly see it this way.

GPA's are one of the few objective and universal data available, so it carries a good deal of weight. It suggests to adcoms how well they can expect the applicant to perform once they matriculate.

No argument here, with your points listed above. I agree, medical schools use average GPA and MCAT score as the higher-weighted, determining factors in predicting school and USMLE Step I performance upon matriculation to medical school. A study did show correlation. Naturally, medical schools want very high average Step I scores and everyone to graduate. These statistics help them achieve greater funding potential and a higher rank, among other things.

Obviously, you want future doctors who can pass Step I and who won't fail their classes, so using GPA and MCAT as predicting factors certainly helps ensure that schools will produce competent physicians in that respect. However, nowhere does GPA and MCAT score predict, with any reliability, what kind of doctor you will make beyond competency. There are simply too many other variables in play. What that means is, if you use GPA and MCAT as metrics, that after some given range, they will likely fail to determine anything beyond competency. They aren't robust enough.

So, GPA and MCAT can be said to predict school and test performance, but will have extremely limited value in predicting what kind of doctor you'll make.
 
Threads like this are always so frustrating. Do people honestly believe that a higher GPA doesn't demonstrate higher aptitude in Undergrad? Do they also really not believe that some people aren't capable of attaining good grades, while still balancing some incredible ECs, and have really nice personalities/interview skills to boot? Seriously guys, they're out there. And their taking our acceptances.
 
Undergrad just isn't that hard. If your grades are slipping below 3.0 you either have some extenuating circumstances or you're not trying/don't care/party too much. The first case merits some consideration and the second case deserves a "see ya."

Your GPA reflects a combination of your dedication/intelligence. Sounds like a great criterion for evaluating potential doctors. The higher the better.
 
Your GPA reflects a combination of your dedication/intelligence. Sounds like a great criterion for evaluating potential doctors. The higher the better.

Probably more dedication than intelligence, though. Yeah, I agree, a future doctor should be a good student. Anyway, intelligence is highly contextual...

As a great criterion for evaluating potential doctors? That's completely arguable. One can claim that school performance can be predicted by GPA, but there is no resounding proof that suggests that those who do exceedingly well in school make the best doctors. So the higher, the better? I don't know about that. I'll give you that, up to a point, grades can predict competency in terms of future test performance and grades. I don't think there is a lot of evidence that suggests clinical performance, or future performance as a clinician, is linked to undergraduate GPA or MCAT performance. They are good metrics for predicting academic performance. Why do people try to make them out to be more than that?
 
But my argument is that a 4.0 makes a person better qualified to be a doctor than a 3.0 all other things being equal.

You will discover one day that all things are never equal in medical training, so that line of reasoning is irrelevant.
 
Threads like this are always so frustrating. Do people honestly believe that a higher GPA doesn't demonstrate higher aptitude in Undergrad? Do they also really not believe that some people aren't capable of attaining good grades, while still balancing some incredible ECs, and have really nice personalities/interview skills to boot? Seriously guys, they're out there. And their taking our acceptances.

Heh, I believe the people who argue the other side are generally trying to say that everyone with good grades lack social skills which would make them poor doctors. Oh, also a 4.0 equates to lack of compassion along with full blown gunnerish :rolleyes:.

Like HumbleMD, said it's possible!
 
Stewart University maybe...
 
Most people with 4.0's spend their entire time in the library anyways. I would take a 3.3 over a 4.0 anyday b/c the 3.3 person would have more time interacting with others then worrying about their precious GPA. It's all part of a game, you just have to play it right.
 
Most people with 4.0's spend their entire time in the library anyways. I would take a 3.3 over a 4.0 anyday b/c the 3.3 person would have more time interacting with others then worrying about their precious GPA. It's all part of a game, you just have to play it right.
Now you've just got the bullsh-t knee deep. Are you really serious? What if the person with a 3.3 spent all their time in the library, but the person with the 4.0 is naturally more intelligent? The person with the highest GPA I know (that has been accepted to med school) is also one of the bigger party animals I know.
 
Most people with 4.0's spend their entire time in the library anyways. I would take a 3.3 over a 4.0 anyday b/c the 3.3 person would have more time interacting with others then worrying about their precious GPA. It's all part of a game, you just have to play it right.

That's an unfair stereotype. I can just as easily say that those with 3.3's shouldn't go to medical schools because they were so concerned about their social life they failed to perform academically. I resent that you say 4.0's spend most of their time in the library. Like I said before it is possible for people with high GPAs to have a social life, a good one too! You are right, it is a game. So I think people should "play it right" and have the best of both worlds. Of course, and I know some one will argue this, there is always room for extenuating circumstances.

What's your status? med student, doctor, current applicant, freshman? You say "precious GPA" like it doesn't matter. Trust me, it matters. Why else would we have all these people posting to see if their 3.X GPA is good enough? It is not the end all be all of the application but every little bit helps and since GPA is one of the more controllable parts of the application, why not maximize the potential?
 
They're saying their minimum GPA is a 2.0, not that they will ever necessarily accept one. But hey, if a 2.0 is good enough to become POTUS, why not a doctor? When we screw up, we will kill at most one person at a time.

No, they're saying that the minimum GPA for premed course work should be a 2.0, not the overall undergrad GPA.
 
It is not the end all be all of the application but every little bit helps and since GPA is one of the more controllable parts of the application, why not maximize the potential?

You know, when it's all said and done, I agree with you. Also, it's possible to place school work as a top priority and also be well-rounded. If I only knew back then what I know now... :D
 
Med school is an academic challenge. Undergrad GPA and MCAT score is a way to measure if you can handle the workload. I don't know why it's so hard for people to see that. Does your academic performance tell you how good of a doctor you are? No. Could it tell you if you are a sufficiently strong academic background to do the school in med school? Very likely.

One can argue that a 4.0 may not be any different than a 3.5 in terms of being a good doctor but there is a certain point when someone's abysmal GPA may indicate deficiencies in the sciences, and/or a lack of work ethic. Kind doctors are nice, but competent doctors are even more important. And a GPA, up to a point, serves as an approximate indicator of the ability to produce a competent physician.
 
You will discover one day that all things are never equal in medical training, so that line of reasoning is irrelevant.

Take a medical school like BU or Temple that gets 10,000 apps. Hundreds of them are very much the same: same MCAT range, clinical experience, similar volunteer efforts, etc. Who deserves an interview slot if not the ones with the higher gpa? The ones with the lower gpa? Every medical school in the country uses undergraduate gpa as the prime determinant on who gets in, so I would argue that this line of reasoning is the most relevant thing concerning most of the people on this board.

The OP seemed to be asking if a 2.0 will get him into Meharry. Posters start chiming in with how all these people on MDApps get in with sub-3.0's all the time, when the reality is you have about as good a chance of winning the lottery. I just think it's disingenuous to give premeds the false hope that their 3.0 will cut it. There are those few who manage a spot, but they have to work awfully hard on the other areas of their application. You have to earn your shot, one way or another.
 
No, they're saying that the minimum GPA for premed course work should be a 2.0, not the overall undergrad GPA.

Lol, in the end, doesn't matter. Either way I'm never going to let a graduate from that school treat me or my family for anything more serious than a papercut.
 
So, GPA and MCAT can be said to predict school and test performance, but will have extremely limited value in predicting what kind of doctor you'll make.

I want to emphasize the above point. Sure GPA and MCAT scores are modest indicators of med school success. Actually lots of things are. But there are many folks with 4.0 undergrad who struggle in parts of med school and folks with lower B averages who ultimately do quite well. It is foolish to think undergrad grades or stats have any meaning once someone gets into med school. This is a field where you always have to prove yourself, and where the competition keeps getting better and better and the workload higher and higher. While MCAT scores and GPA loom large in your guys mind as pre-allos, the second you get accepted to med school, you are back at zero again, and expected to prove yourself anew in a much more difficult arena. So nothing you have done in college has meaning in terms of how good a physician you will be. You are just trying to get a ticket to entry at this point -- the game has yet to begin.
 
Take a medical school like BU or Temple that gets 10,000 apps. Hundreds of them are very much the same: same MCAT range, clinical experience, similar volunteer efforts, etc. Who deserves an interview slot if not the ones with the higher gpa? The ones with the lower gpa?

Hee hee hee!! I'm leaving this thread mostly alone, but I had to chime in when I saw this... BU and Temple were two of the only places that decided to interview my boyfriend... who has a **** GPA!
 
I want to emphasize the above point. Sure GPA and MCAT scores are modest indicators of med school success. Actually lots of things are. But there are many folks with 4.0 undergrad who struggle in parts of med school and folks with lower B averages who ultimately do quite well. It is foolish to think undergrad grades or stats have any meaning once someone gets into med school. This is a field where you always have to prove yourself, and where the competition keeps getting better and better and the workload higher and higher. While MCAT scores and GPA loom large in your guys mind as pre-allos, the second you get accepted to med school, you are back at zero again, and expected to prove yourself anew in a much more difficult arena. So nothing you have done in college has meaning in terms of how good a physician you will be. You are just trying to get a ticket to entry at this point -- the game has yet to begin.
Modest? For heaven's sakes Law. You really think that good grades in college chemistry, biology, and biochemistry classes has almost nothing to do with performance in medical school science courses (I'm not sayig clinicals, of course). Of course your GPA goes back to zero, but so did my high school GPA. Where are those kids who said their HS GPA was meaningless and no measure of how they'd do in college nowadays? Not at a top university, I'll tell you that much.

And if I've heard the whole "I know a 4.0 kid who failed out of med school and a 2.0 student at the top of the class" thing once, I've heard it a million times. I'm just trying to figure out if this anecdote is always about the exact same set 2 students. Either way, I think its clear that this is probably an exception and not a rule. Otherwise, adcoms would start from the bottom up of GPAs and MCAT scores -
"Uh oh Jim, we've got another 4.0 and 42 MCAT here. Jeez, why don't they just read the admissions requirments. He's well above the maximum score cut-off. Into the trash it goes. Maybe he'll have better luck in the Caribbean."

Y'all can wait until that happens. I for one, will not be holding my breath.
 
Modest? For heaven's sakes Law. You really think that good grades in college chemistry, biology, and biochemistry classes has almost nothing to do with performance in medical school science courses (I'm not sayig clinicals, of course). Of course your GPA goes back to zero, but so did my high school GPA. Where are those kids who said their HS GPA was meaningless and no measure of how they'd do in college nowadays? Not at a top university, I'll tell you that much.

And if I've heard the whole "I know a 4.0 kid who failed out of med school and a 2.0 student at the top of the class" thing once, I've heard it a million times. I'm just trying to figure out if this anecdote is always about the exact same set 2 students. Either way, I think its clear that this is probably an exception and not a rule. Otherwise, adcoms would start from the bottom up of GPAs and MCAT scores -
"Uh oh Jim, we've got another 4.0 and 42 MCAT here. Jeez, why don't they just read the admissions requirments. He's well above the maximum score cut-off. Into the trash it goes. Maybe he'll have better luck in the Caribbean."

Y'all can wait until that happens. I for one, will not be holding my breath.


I wasn't actually talking about how schools make admissions decisions -- clearly schools have a limited number of objective things they can look at and so numerical stats are used pretty significantly at the pre-interview stage and to thin the field for consideration. Duh.
I was talking about relative success once someone has been admitted (in response to the several posts of folks who would never go to a doctor/surgeon who didn't get X.X GPA in undergrad.)
Folks who get admitted had something going for them, and some reason med schools decided they would succeed. For some it was largely undergrad grades and numerical stats, for others, there are a variety of things that made schools comfortable that such person could thrive.
And yes, I would say modest. Lots of people do really well in college when the competition is less impressive, but find themselves struggling thereafter. In med school, the range of accepted grades tends to be smaller, the credentials more impressive, and thus honors tend to go more to people who are better at adapting to the new regime and levels of expectation than to those who historically did well in college. If you look at the typical med school class, you are going to see a pretty nice spread of people you thought should be stars ending up at both the top and bottom of the class and folks you thought were out of their element often doing fairly well. Lots of us made A's in college in courses we didn't really study for, but no med school course is ever like that. It is a very different ballgame and the tools that made you do well in undergrad, albeit modestly correlated (in the sense that smart people in college are often still smart in med school), are not the same ones that will make you succeed or fail in med school -- undergrad credentials are simply not the end all be all that some here suggest. You have to prove yourself all over again. You start med school as a nothing -- a 0.0, just like the dude who got in on the strength of his ECs. Doesn't mean you will get the last laugh.
 
I wasn't actually talking about how schools make admissions decisions -- clearly schools have a limited number of objective things they can look at and so numerical stats are used pretty significantly at the pre-interview stage and to thin the field for consideration. Duh.
I was talking about relative success once someone has been admitted (in response to the several posts of folks who would never go to a doctor/surgeon who didn't get X.X GPA in undergrad.)
Folks who get admitted had something going for them, and some reason med schools decided they would succeed. For some it was largely undergrad grades and numerical stats, for others, there are a variety of things that made schools comfortable that such person could thrive.
And yes, I would say modest. Lots of people do really well in college when the competition is less impressive, but find themselves struggling thereafter. In med school, the range of accepted grades tends to be smaller, the credentials more impressive, and thus honors tend to go more to people who are better at adapting to the new regime and levels of expectation than to those who historically did well in college. If you look at the typical med school class, you are going to see a pretty nice spread of people you thought should be stars ending up at both the top and bottom of the class and folks you thought were out of their element often doing fairly well. Lots of us made A's in college in courses we didn't really study for, but no med school course is ever like that. It is a very different ballgame and the tools that made you do well in undergrad, albeit modestly correlated (in the sense that smart people in college are often still smart in med school), are not the same ones that will make you succeed or fail in med school -- undergrad credentials are simply not the end all be all that some here suggest. You have to prove yourself all over again. You start med school as a nothing -- a 0.0, just like the dude who got in on the strength of his ECs. Doesn't mean you will get the last laugh.
No, others weren't talking about admissions decisions, but the way you and others on SDN talk, its as if a 4.0 would be the worst thing possible - you're going to fail out of med school and you have no social skills or interests outside of courses. If this is so apparent to you, why wouldn't admissions committees start picking up on this miraculous trends and start adjusting their admissions processes? Oh, that's because no one in the Universe is as intelligent as Law2Doc. Or because these trends don't exist.

Of course you start over in med school for GPA, but see my previous post about HS - college transition.
And again, you really don't believe that someone who had to study a bunch and work hard to attain an A in biochemistry courses is going to be just as prepared for medical school science work as a 2.0 sociology major? Really?
And of course the competition is at a higher intense level in med school. Now you're up against other students from better schools with equal or better GPAs from undergrad.
I get the point that it's not just about the numbers, but this hyperbolic assertion that they are meaningless is ridiculous. It allows people to believe that anyone who's seen 3 episodes of E.R. are cut out for medical school.
 
Even the most unrepresented amongst us will have a hard time getting into a medical school with a 2.0.
 
No, others weren't talking about admissions decisions, but the way you and others on SDN talk, its as if a 4.0 would be the worst thing possible - you're going to fail out of med school and you have no social skills or interests outside of courses. If this is so apparent to you, why wouldn't admissions committees start picking up on this miraculous trends and start adjusting their admissions processes? Oh, that's because no one in the Universe is as intelligent as Law2Doc. Or because these trends don't exist.

You seem to be combining my responses with others on this thread that have nothing to do with the posts I was responding to. I responded to the dudes who said college grades reflected on how good a doctor one would become. I never said having a 4.0 was a bad thing or that someone with a 4.0 necessarilly had poor social skills (xucardsfan08 did, not me). Numerical stats certainly play a big role in admissions, as do other things - and you had better believe med schools look at these other things too. Med schools are not simply using grades as their sole acceptance criteria so in fact they are incorporating these other trends. In med school, you will meet people with pretty impressive ECs with high B averages, to go along with the handful of A average types. You can disagree with this approach, but you cannot really disagree that it exists. And it exists because med schools find indicators of success in a variety of places these days. They chose these people over folks with higher numerical stats.

And I certainly never said I was more intelligent than anyone here - chill.
 
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