2011 Match Lists

[Neuronix]

wtf, more derm than family med, more rad-onc than family med, more opthal/rads than family med

Oddly, the Penn list is missing 2 rad oncs, including one at Harvard. I honestly forget the other.

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[COBuffs]

impressive matches this yr all around. congrats 4th years

 

[dantt]

Penn makes no promise to address the primary care shortage, and openly broadcasts the fact their primary goal is to generate physician-scientists and leading academicians (unsurprisingly, since that's what their rep is based on). So I don't have a problem with their match results. However, at the same time, it's not hard to see why it might draw some concern.

No offense but their match list is more consistent with lifestyle specialties than physician-scientists / leading academicians. There's nothing wrong with that. Just saying.

 

[WingedOx]

So from the way it looks, it DOES matter what school you go to.

I feel like the name of the school gets downplayed a lot when deciding where to go. People talk about "price-tag" and "happiness" and location. Charting Outcomes or one of those NRMP studies show that being a "top 40" NIH school barely makes a difference and has less impact than grades or Step 1. However, looking at these match lists it seems like it's not so. Schools that are higher quality match better. USMLE avg are not that different across the board. Neither are 3rd year grades since an Honors is an Honors and purely subjective unless schools like Penn give 99% honors.

Should there be a higher emphasis on quality of school and not just all the other factors?

sigh... must I post this again?

 

[ButImLETired]

I guess Radiology at Brigham and Mayo, Neurosurgery at Boston children's, and Anesthesia at Hopkins is under performing.

Either way, people that are at those ivy league programs are smart, motivated, and hard working medical students. They work hard, get good board scores, and go where they want for residency. That's not too hard to understand....

Not only that, but the people who attend an academic powerhouse like Penn often want a career in academia. Top schools generally require research experience and expect you to do some kind of research while you're there. Top residency programs often expect some kind of grad-level research because they're geared toward academics. So the two things are really almost symbiotic- big academic med schools accept kids who have research experience, groom them to get into big academic programs, and the big academic programs in turn accept those students (they know their mentors, trust that they have learned how to run a research study, realize those are the students who'll probably take best advantage of an academic program's resources) and groom them to become academic physicians. Those who get into the top programs from the smaller, less-research focused med schools probably had a rockier road because they had to prove that they could compete- but they're still more than capable of getting the job done.

People often forget that some of these things are self-selected. Honestly if you just want to become a general practice IM doc, going to MGH is kind of a waste. You may have the grades for it, but what's the point? Or, you may not have the grades- after all, why fight tooth and nail to be the best of the best if you don't have to? Some of these top programs last longer than usual (they often include research time), the patients are harder to work with because the hospitals are tertiary centers, you may have less attentive teachers because many of them are more research-focused, and they may be more malignant and intense than the less awe-inspiring programs. So why in the world would you put yourself through that if you don't have to?

You guys have to get out of the premed mindset. It's no longer about "going to the best place" or "picking the best specialty". Even if I somehow pulled a 270 on Step 1 out of my rectum, I'd rather be shot in the foot than become like, a neurosurgeon or a radiologist or a dermatologist. The specialties I like have a Step 1 average in the 220s, maybe 230s. To be totally safe and know that I'll get to be at least semi-selective when I apply to residency, I'd like to get something in the 240s. Will I aim for higher? Sure. But I'm not going to be sweating bullets for a month either. It's way more self-selected than y'all think.

 

[riceman04]

What are you talking about?

2 Neurosurgery
4 Urology
7 Rads
4 ENT
11 Ortho
10 Ophthal
8 Derm
etc.

Not bad for a small state school with a ranking of 71st.

you just listed specialties and not programs....I need to go back up and look at your original post to see WHERE they matched

 

[vicinihil]

I agree that it's the program more than the specialty that shows "competitiveness."

Rads at community program is NOT more competitive than IM at MGH or Peds at CHOP. It merely shows interest of the medical school class.

If Penn has USMLE at 240, schools not comparable to Penn also post scores in 230's. A 10 point USMLE difference does not account for the difference in match list. School name and drive of students must play a difference to some degree. Question is what?

 

[fahimaz7]

I agree that it's the program more than the specialty that shows "competitiveness."

Rads at community program is NOT more competitive than IM at MGH or Peds at CHOP. It merely shows interest of the medical school class.

If Penn has USMLE at 240, schools not comparable to Penn also post scores in 230's. A 10 point USMLE difference does not account for the difference in match list. School name and drive of students must play a difference to some degree. Question is what?

Maybe I'm missing something here. I look at Penn and I look at MCG's match list, and I see a lot of full blown academic centers on both of them, with matches at Mayo, Mass Gen, Brigham, Boston Children's, Hopkins, Emory, Duke, Vandy, USC, etc.

 

[Kfire326]

SUNY Downstate 2011 match list. So happy to be part of this!


Anesthesiology
CT Yale-New Haven Hosp-CT NEW HAVEN
IL U Illinois COM-Chicago CHICAGO
MA Brigham & Womens Hosp-MA Boston
MA Massachusetts Gen Hosp BOSTON
NJ St Barnabas Med Ctr-NJ LIVINGSTON
NJ UMDNJ-R W Johnson-Piscataway New Brunswick
NY Einstein/Montefiore Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY Einstein/Montefiore Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY Maimonides Med Ctr-NY BROOKLYN
NY NYP Hosp-Columbia Univ-NY NEW YORK
NY NYP Hosp-Columbia Univ-NY NEW YORK
NY NYU School of Medicine New York
NY Stony Brook Teach Hosps-NY STONY BROOK
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY U Rochester/Strong Mem-NY ROCHESTER
TX U Texas Med Sch-Houston HOUSTON
VA University of Virginia CHARLOTTESVILLE

Child Neurology
NY U Rochester/Strong Mem-NY ROCHESTER

Dermatology
NY NYP Hosp-Columbia Univ-NY NEW YORK
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN

Emergency Medicine
CT Yale-New Haven Hosp-CT NEW HAVEN
MA Brigham & Womens Hosp-MA Boston
NY Einstein/Jacobi Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY Einstein/Jacobi Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY Einstein/Jacobi Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY Einstein/Jacobi Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY Einstein/Jacobi Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY Lincoln Medical Ctr-NY BRONX
NY Maimonides Med Ctr-NY BROOKLYN
NY NYU School of Medicine New York
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
PA Albert Einstein Med Ctr-PA PHILADELPHIA

Family Medicine
CT Middlesex Hospital-CT MIDDLETOWN
NC Duke Univ Med Ctr-NC DURHAM
NJ Overlook Hospital-NJ SUMMIT
NY U Rochester/Strong Mem-NY ROCHESTER
OR Oregon Health & Science Univ PORTLAND
OR Prov Milwaukie Hospital-OR MILWAUKIE
TX McLennan County Fam Med-TX WACO
VA University of Virginia CHARLOTTESVILLE

General Surgery
CT U Connecticut Health Ctr FARMINGTON
FL Jackson Memorial Hosp-FL MIAMI
MO Barnes-Jewish Hosp-MO ST LOUIS
NJ UMDNJ-New Jersey Med-Newark NEWARK
NY Montefiore Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY North Shore-LIJ Health Sys-NY Great Neck
NY U Rochester/Strong Mem-NY ROCHESTER
TX Baylor U Med Ctr-Dallas-TX DALLAS

Internal Medicine
CA Cedars-Sinai Medical Center-CA LOS ANGELES
CA Cedars-Sinai Medical Center-CA LOS ANGELES
CA Harbor-UCLA Med Ctr-CA TORRANCE
CA Olive View-UCLA Med Ctr-CA Sylmar
CT Stamford Hospital-CT STAMFORD
IL U Illinois COM-Chicago CHICAGO
MA B I Deaconess Med Ctr-MA BOSTON
MA Massachusetts Gen Hosp BOSTON
MA Tufts Medical Center-MA BOSTON
MD U Maryland Med Ctr BALTIMORE
MI U Michigan Hosps-Ann Arbor ANN ARBOR
NJ UMDNJ-New Jersey Med-Newark NEWARK
NJ UMDNJ-R W Johnson-Piscataway New Brunswick
NY Einstein/Beth Israel Med Ctr-NY NEW YORK
NY Einstein/Beth Israel Med Ctr-NY NEW YORK
NY Einstein/Montefiore Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY Lenox Hill Hospital-NY NEW YORK
NY Maimonides Med Ctr-NY BROOKLYN
NY North Shore-LIJ Health Sys-NY Great Neck
NY North Shore-LIJ Health Sys-NY Great Neck
NY North Shore-LIJ Health Sys-NY Great Neck
NY North Shore-LIJ Health Sys-NY Great Neck
NY North Shore-LIJ Health Sys-NY Great Neck
NY North Shore-LIJ Health Sys-NY Great Neck
NY North Shore-LIJ Health Sys-NY Great Neck
NY NY Hosp Med Ctr Queens Flushing
NY NYP Hosp-Columbia Univ-NY NEW YORK
NY NYP Hosp-Columbia Univ-NY NEW YORK
NY NYP Hosp-Columbia Univ-NY NEW YORK
NY NYU School of Medicine New York
NY St Lukes-Roosevelt-NY NEW YORK
NY St Lukes-Roosevelt-NY NEW YORK
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY U Rochester/Strong Mem-NY ROCHESTER
NY Winthrop-Univ Hosp-NY MINEOLA
NY Winthrop-Univ Hosp-NY MINEOLA
NY Winthrop-Univ Hosp-NY MINEOLA
OH Cleveland Clinic Fdn-OH CLEVELAND
OH Cleveland Clinic Fdn-OH CLEVELAND
PA Drexel Univ COM-PA PHILADELPHIA
PA Drexel Univ COM-PA PHILADELPHIA
PA Hershey Med Ctr/Penn State-PA HERSHEY
PA Thomas Jefferson Univ-PA PHILADELPHIA

Medicine: Emergency Medicine
MD U Maryland Med Ctr BALTIMORE
MI Henry Ford HSC-MI DETROIT
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN

Medicine: Preliminary
NY North Shore-LIJ Health Sys-NY Great Neck
NY Staten Island Univ Hosp-NY STATEN ISLAND
NY Staten Island Univ Hosp-NY STATEN ISLAND
CT U Connecticut Health Ctr FARMINGTON
CT Yale-New Haven Hosp-CT NEW HAVEN

Neurology
NY Einstein/Montefiore Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY Einstein/Montefiore Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY NYP Hosp-Columbia Univ-NY New York
NY NYU School of Medicine New York
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN

Obstetrics/Gynecology CT
St Francis Hospital-CT HARTFORD
CT U Connecticut Health Ctr FARMINGTON
NY Einstein/Montefiore Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY Mount Sinai Hospital-NY NEW YORK
NY Nassau Univ Med Ctr-NY EAST MEADOW
NY Nassau Univ Med Ctr-NY EAST MEADOW
NY North Shore U-Manhasset-NY MANHASSET
NY North Shore U-Manhasset-NY MANHASSET
NY Stony Brook Teach Hosps-NY STONY BROOK
NY Stony Brook Teach Hosps-NY STONY BROOK
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY SUNY Upstate Med University SYRACUSE

Ophthalmology
NY NYMC - Jamaica Hospital-NY Jamaica
NY SUNY Downstate Brooklyn
NY SUNY Downstate Brooklyn
NY SUNY Downstate Brooklyn

Oral Surgery
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN

Orthopaedic Surgery
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
TX Brooke Army Medical Center-TX Fort Sam Houston

Otolaryngology
NY New York Eye and Ear Infirmary New York
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY U Rochester/Strong Mem-NY ROCHESTER

Pathology
NY NYU School of Medicine New York
NY NYU School of Medicine New York

Pediatrics
CA Childrens Hospital-Oakland-CA OAKLAND
CA UCLA Medical Center-CA LOS ANGELES
IL Rush University Med Ctr-IL Chicago
MA Childrens Hospital-Boston-MA BOSTON
MA Childrens Hospital-Boston-MA BOSTON
MA Childrens Hospital-Boston-MA BOSTON
MD Johns Hopkins Hosp-MD BALTIMORE
NY Einstein/Jacobi Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY Einstein/Montefiore Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY Einstein/Montefiore Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY Einstein/Montefiore Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY Mount Sinai Hospital-NY NEW YORK
NY North Shore-LIJ Health Sys-NY Great Neck
NY North Shore-LIJ Health Sys-NY Great Neck
NY North Shore-LIJ Health Sys-NY Great Neck
NY North Shore-LIJ Health Sys-NY Great Neck
NY NYP Hosp-Columbia Univ-NY NEW YORK
NY NYP Hosp-Columbia Univ-NY NEW YORK
NY NYU School of Medicine New York
NY NYU School of Medicine New York
NY Stony Brook Teach Hosps-NY STONY BROOK
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY SUNY Upstate Med University SYRACUSE
NY SUNY Upstate Med University SYRACUSE
NY Westchester Med Ctr-NY VALHALLA
NY Westchester Med Ctr-NY VALHALLA
PA St Christophers Hosp-PA PHILADELPHIA

Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation
CA VA Greater LA Hlth Sys-CA Los Angeles
NY Mount Sinai Hospital-NY NEW YORK
NY Mount Sinai Hospital-NY NEW YORK
NY Mount Sinai Hospital-NY NEW YORK
PA Thomas Jefferson Univ-PA PHILADELPHIA

Psychiatry
FL U Florida COM-Shands Hosp GAINESVILLE
MA Harvard Longwood Psych-MA BOSTON
NY Einstein/Montefiore Med Ctr-NY BRONX
NY NYP Hosp-Columbia Univ-NY NEW YORK
NY NYP Hosp-Weill Cornell Med Ctr-NY NEW YORK
TX U Texas Med Branch-Galveston GALVESTON

Radiation: Oncology
MA Tufts Medical Center-MA BOSTON

Radiology: Diagnostic
NJ UMDNJ-R W Johnson-Piscataway New Brunswick
NY Mount Sinai Hospital-NY NEW YORK
NY NYP Hosp-Columbia Univ-NY NEW YORK
NY NYP Hosp-Columbia Univ-NY NEW YORK
NY Stony Brook Teach Hosps-NY STONY BROOK
NY Stony Brook Teach Hosps-NY STONY BROOK
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN

Surgery: Preliminary
NY Einstein/Beth Israel Med Ctr-NY NEW YORK
NY SUNY Downstate Brooklyn
NY SUNY Downstate Brooklyn

Urology
CT Yale-New Haven Hosp-CT NEW HAVEN
NY Stony Brook Teach Hosps-NY STONY BROOK
NY SUNY Downstate BROOKLYN

 

[DoctwoB]

I guess Radiology at Brigham and Mayo, Neurosurgery at Boston children's, and Anesthesia at Hopkins is under performing.

Either way, people that are at those ivy league programs are smart, motivated, and hard working medical students. They work hard, get good board scores, and go where they want for residency. That's not too hard to understand....

Those are definitely amazing matches (though check your facts: Boston children's doesn't have a neurosurgery residency, both BWH and MGH rotate at children's for peds neurosurg). I was never saying that the very top students at lower tier schools can't match awesomely, because they definitely can. I was just saying if you compare the mid-top (say ~80th percentile) of a middle or lower tier school with the bottom (say 20th percentile) of harvard or hopkins, you'll find that the harvard students match better, even though they almost certainly aren't more competitive applicants in terms of grades, board scores, etc.

 

[gravitywave]

Maybe I'm missing something here. I look at Penn and I look at MCG's match list, and I see a lot of full blown academic centers on both of them, with matches at Mayo, Mass Gen, Brigham, Boston Children's, Hopkins, Emory, Duke, Vandy, USC, etc.

dude.... honestly and for the last time, calm down already. no one is saying that you can't go to a big name academic program from MCG. your match list proves that. what is being suggested is that your chances of going to such a program are increased if you attend a school that's better regarded for research, and i'd say that's mostly due to better exposure to research opportunities and better access to heavy hitters in the field. honestly, matching into IM at MGH takes a little bit of luck for anyone. going to Penn or Harvard or JH takes a little bit of that luck element out of the equation, just as getting 260 on Step I does (obviously the Step score is more important). i do think that vicinihil overstates the case for school importance, but it certainly matters more as you aim for programs of the very highest reputation.

there's so much data on this, that i just can't believe that you're missing the point this badly. are you just bored and trying to pick fights or something?

 

[gravitywave]

Where you go to school definitely makes a huge difference in where you match, and how easy it is for you to match in a competitive specialty. Most residency program directors (at my medical school included) will tell you that the 3 factors that they look at most are: medical school attended, clerkship grades/AOA status, and step 1 score. Different programs and specialties might put a different weight on each of these, but where you go to school makes a big difference.

i'm not doubting that you're telling the truth here, but your anecdotes only have bearing on the programs at your school. all the data suggests that this is not the case, broadly speaking.

 

[IntelInside]

Anyone have SUNY upstate's match list or SUNY buffalo's?

 

[fahimaz7]

Those are definitely amazing matches (though check your facts: Boston children's doesn't have a neurosurgery residency, both BWH and MGH rotate at children's for peds neurosurg). I was never saying that the very top students at lower tier schools can't match awesomely, because they definitely can. I was just saying if you compare the mid-top (say ~80th percentile) of a middle or lower tier school with the bottom (say 20th percentile) of harvard or hopkins, you'll find that the harvard students match better, even though they almost certainly aren't more competitive applicants in terms of grades, board scores, etc.

All I'm going by is the match list that was provided to us...

 

[DoctwoB]

All I'm going by is the match list that was provided to us...

Fair enough. They must mean the BWH program, which is technically joint with CHOB. Still a very impressive match.

 

[LuckyST]

i'm not doubting that you're telling the truth here, but your anecdotes only have bearing on the programs at your school. all the data suggests that this is not the case, broadly speaking.

So, are you arguing that school matters or it doesn't?

These things are pretty widely accepted among current medical students:
-where you go to school matters a lot
-AOA status, 3rd year grades, and step 1 also matter a lot

After being on the interview trail for 3 months, these things are pretty obvious. If you are interviewing at a "top" program, everyone that you see from a "no name" school is a superstar- AOA, tons of research, etc. However, when you see students who go to med school at Harvard, Penn, Hopkins, etc.- they are often run-of-the-mill students, not AOA, and yet can still get pretty much any interview they want. This may be anecdotal, but you would be hard pressed to find anyone that doesn't have the same experience.

My impression:
-if you go to a top school, you can write your own ticket
-if you go to a less known school, you need to be a superstar to match at a top place

 

[gravitywave]

So, are you arguing that school matters or it doesn't?

These things are pretty widely accepted among current medical students:
-where you go to school matters a lot
-AOA status, 3rd year grades, and step 1 also matter a lot

After being on the interview trail for 3 months, these things are pretty obvious. If you are interviewing at a "top" program, everyone that you see from a "no name" school is a superstar- AOA, tons of research, etc. However, when you see students who go to med school at Harvard, Penn, Hopkins, etc.- they are often run-of-the-mill students, not AOA, and yet can still get pretty much any interview they want. This may be anecdotal, but you would be hard pressed to find anyone that doesn't have the same experience.

My impression:
-if you go to a top school, you can write your own ticket
-if you go to a less known school, you need to be a superstar to match at a top place

honestly i don't feel that we're that far apart on this issue. school matters, yes. but the degree to which it matters depends on what environment you're talking about. if you've just spent the winter interviewing at well-regarded programs connected to UsNews Honor Roll hospitals, then i don't doubt your story. after all, not everyone can be AOA at a top research school. i'd be willing to bet however, that even those folks from H/P/JHU weren't there with a 210 Step score. many of them probably were in the 230-240 range - exceptional for most schools, but run-of-mill for the schools from which they came.

again, i don't doubt your "impression," but most programs are not top places. thus, the data suggests that, in the aggregate, what school an applicant attended is around 8-10th place for what PDs look at - even for Derm. for Derm at MGH, yeah you're damned right it matters a ton. if one realizes by 4th year, as most medical students do, that it's a better idea to concentrate on going to a solid program in your chosen field that isn't in a city that you'd absolutely loathe, than it is to dream about MGH, then the data make sense. your average PD doesn't care nearly as much about school as s/he does about the caliber of the applicant, as measured by grades, Step scores, letters, interview.

edit: just peeked at the MGH Derm residents. either Derm there isn't very good, or school attended matters even less than i thought it did.

 

[Neuronix]

My impression:
-if you go to a top school, you can write your own ticket

I just went through the match from a top school for transitional year and competitive specialty, and I think this is absolute nonsense. I had what I thought was a very competitive application and I got beat out on my rank list by numerous people from lower tier schools.

In the first place, I think regional bias matters more than school rep. I didn't want to stay in my home region, did aways outside of here, did research outside of here, and it didn't matter. I couldn't get off the east coast. At least I went from northeast to southeast. I could have probably moved to the midwest if I really wanted to... But almost nobody does, and hence it's not competitive.

I think the reasons why our school has so many people going into competitive sub-specialties is because:

1) We get a lot of early exposure to sub-specialties. It's hard to ignore the brand new cancer center and massive proton facility that constantly makes news.

2) The subspecialty departments are very strong. So you have a lot of access to advisors, letter writers, and research opportunities in those specialties.

3) Research is strongly promoted at this school. Well over half the class takes at least a year out or attains some other advanced degree.

No offense but their match list is more consistent with lifestyle specialties than physician-scientists / leading academicians. There's nothing wrong with that. Just saying.

I found that post very astute.

4) And to say what everyone knows but nobody actually wants to say... The students here really get grilled by the top medicine and peds residency programs when they rotate through. When you do the rotations and sub-Is in those departments most nurses/residents/attendings are unhappy, and as a med student they often make you feel like an unknowing, unhelpful burden. Then you go do a rotation in derm, rad onc, or some other "cushy" specialty, and all of a sudden here's a big group of friendly attendings and residents who actually seem like they enjoy life and want to teach you. The decision to go into a subspecialty becomes a no-brainer. As for FP, yes there is a subspecialty bias at the top research medical schools. If you talk to faculty here, they'll generally try to push you more towards IM, peds, med-peds, EM, etc... It's hard to subspecialize and have big research careers out of FP. Further, the big name med schools have weak or non-existent FP departments, as opposed to the large, flashy subspecialty departments. People know this coming in, and if they had a strong interest in FP/primary care, they probably wouldn't have come to this big name, expensive private school anyway that so highly values all that undergrad research.

I find it all interesting, because when I talk to my buddies at not so big name schools who go into medicine, most of their class loves their medicine rotations. Their attendings and residents tend to be happy people. This is not so at MASSIVE, BIG NAME PROGRAM where everyone is under high pressure, high stress, low pay, and the residents are probably hiding their actual work hours.

I mean sure, it probably does help a lot that our average step 1 score is about 240. But I don't think school rep really matters much at all.

As for why we end up matching at so many "big name" residencies... We're a big name northeastern medical school, so the location bias comes back in again. There's a lot of big name programs in the northeast.

If you go to MCG, you probably have a lot more incentive to stay in the southeast, and there's not nearly as many big name sounding programs in the area. Though that being said, pre-meds have no idea what programs are "big name" in any given residency field. It does not correlate well with the medical school.

In the end, I'm sure I have swayed nobody. I've been on these forums near 10 years and everyone is convinced school rep means everything all the time. I've lived it (from no name undergrad to big name med school to competitive subspecialty), and I still think this "prestige" factor means little to nothing.

 

[UrsusHorribilis]

Anyone happen to have Cornell or NYU?

 

[gravitywave]

I just went through the match from a top school for transitional year and competitive specialty, and I think this is absolute nonsense. I had what I thought was a very competitive application and I got beat out on my rank list by numerous people from lower tier schools.

In the first place, I think regional bias matters more than school rep. I didn't want to stay in my home region, did aways outside of here, did research outside of here, and it didn't matter. I couldn't get off the east coast. At least I went from northeast to southeast. I could have probably moved to the midwest if I really wanted to... But almost nobody does, and hence it's not competitive.

I think the reasons why our school has so many people going into competitive sub-specialties is because:

1) We get a lot of early exposure to sub-specialties. It's hard to ignore the brand new cancer center and massive proton facility that constantly makes news.

2) The subspecialty departments are very strong. So you have a lot of access to advisors, letter writers, and research opportunities in those specialties.

3) Research is strongly promoted at this school. Well over half the class takes at least a year out or attains some other advanced degree.



I found that post very astute.

4) And to say what everyone knows but nobody actually wants to say... The students here really get grilled by the top medicine and peds residency programs when they rotate through. When you do the rotations and sub-Is in those departments most nurses/residents/attendings are unhappy, and as a med student they often make you feel like an unknowing, unhelpful burden. Then you go do a rotation in derm, rad onc, or some other "cushy" specialty, and all of a sudden here's a big group of friendly attendings and residents who actually seem like they enjoy life and want to teach you. The decision to go into a subspecialty becomes a no-brainer. As for FP, yes there is a subspecialty bias at the top research medical schools. If you talk to faculty here, they'll generally try to push you more towards IM, peds, med-peds, EM, etc... It's hard to subspecialize and have big research careers out of FP. Further, the big name med schools have weak or non-existent FP departments, as opposed to the large, flashy subspecialty departments. People know this coming in, and if they had a strong interest in FP/primary care, they probably wouldn't have come to this big name, expensive private school anyway that so highly values all that undergrad research.

I find it all interesting, because when I talk to my buddies at not so big name schools who go into medicine, most of their class loves their medicine rotations. Their attendings and residents tend to be happy people. This is not so at MASSIVE, BIG NAME PROGRAM where everyone is under high pressure, high stress, low pay, and the residents are probably hiding their actual work hours.

I mean sure, it probably does help a lot that our average step 1 score is about 240. But I don't think school rep really matters much at all.

As for why we end up matching at so many "big name" residencies... We're a big name northeastern medical school, so the location bias comes back in again. There's a lot of big name programs in the northeast.

If you go to MCG, you probably have a lot more incentive to stay in the southeast, and there's not nearly as many big name sounding programs in the area. Though that being said, pre-meds have no idea what programs are "big name" in any given residency field. It does not correlate well with the medical school.

In the end, I'm sure I have swayed nobody. I've been on these forums near 10 years and everyone is convinced school rep means everything all the time. I've lived it (from no name undergrad to big name med school to competitive subspecialty), and I still think this "prestige" factor means little to nothing.

you haven't swayed me, but i think that's because we're more or less under the same tent

 

[mTOR]

And to say what everyone knows but nobody actually wants to say... The students here really get grilled by the top medicine and peds residency programs when they rotate through. When you do the rotations and sub-Is in those departments most nurses/residents/attendings are unhappy, and as a med student they often make you feel like an unknowing, unhelpful burden. Then you go do a rotation in derm, rad onc, or some other "cushy" specialty, and all of a sudden here's a big group of friendly attendings and residents who actually seem like they enjoy life and want to teach you. The decision to go into a subspecialty becomes a no-brainer.

Insightful. Makes sense. We've had a parallel phenomena occur at my school, where a particularly demanding and stressful IM clerkship lead to our Diagnostic Radiology applicant group being nearly as big as our IM group

 

[mdeast]

Anesthesiology UCSF
Anesthesiology Barnes-Jewish Hosp
Anesthesiology Harvard MGH
Anesthesiology Stanford Univ.
Anesthesiology Stanford Univ.
Anesthesiology UCSF
Child Neurology Stanford Univ.
Child Neurology U Washington
Dermatology Stanford Univ.
Dermatology UCSF
Emergency Medicine Loma Linda
Emergency Medicine Stanford Univ.
Emergency Medicine U wisconsin Hospital and Clinics
Emergency Medicine UCLA
Emergency Medicine UCLA
Emergency Medicine UCLA
Emergency Medicine UCSF
ENT Stanford Univ.
Family Medicine UCSF
Family Medicine Mid-Hudson Fam Health
General Surgery Harvard BWH
General Surgery Stanford Univ.
General Surgery UCSF
General Surgery UCSF
Internal Medicine UCLA
Internal Medicine Harvard MGH
Internal Medicine Harvard- BID
Internal Medicine Hosp of Upenn
Internal Medicine Johns Hopkins
Internal Medicine Northwestern
Internal Medicine NYP Hosp-Columbia Univ Med
Internal Medicine OHSU
Internal Medicine Santa Clara Valley
Internal Medicine Stanford
Internal Medicine Stanford Univ.
Internal Medicine Stanford Univ.
Internal Medicine Stanford Univ.
Internal Medicine Stanford Univ.
Internal Medicine Stanford Univ.
Internal Medicine UC Davis
Internal Medicine UCSF
Internal Medicine UCSF
Internal Medicine UCSF
Medicine-Preliminary Kaiser Permanente- Santa Clara
Neurological Surgery Dartmouth
Neurological Surgery Harvard MGH
Neurological Surgery NYP Hosp-Columbia Univ Med Center
Neurology Harvard MGH
Neurology Stanford Univ.
Neurology Stanford Univ.
OB-GYN OHSU
OB-GYN U Washington
Opthamology Duke
Opthamology Johns Hopkins
Opthamology Stanford Univ.
Opthamology USC
Orthopaedic Surgery Johns Hopkins
Orthopaedic Surgery Stanford Univ.
Orthopaedic Surgery Stanford Univ.
Orthopaedic Surgery U Washington
Pathology Stanford Univ.
Pediatrics Children's Hospital Boston
Pediatrics Children's Hospital Boston
Pediatrics Einstein
Pediatrics Stanford Univ.
Pediatrics Stanford Univ.
Plastic Surgery Pittsburgh
Plastic Surgery Stanford Univ.
Psychiatry San Mateo Behavioral Health
Psychiatry Stanford Univ.
Psychiatry Stanford Univ.
Radiation-Oncology Einstein
Radiation-Oncology Kaiser Permanente- LA
Radiation-Oncology Northwestern
Radiology-Diagnostic Duke
Radiology-Diagnostic NY Hosp-Weill Cornell Med
Radiology-Diagnostic Santa Clara Valley
Radiology-Diagnostic Stanford Univ.
Radiology-Diagnostic Stanford Univ.
Radiology-Diagnostic Stanford Univ.
Radiology-Diagnostic U Washington
Radiology-Diagnostic UC San Diego
Radiology-Diagnostic UCLA
Urology U Washington
Vascular Surgery Stanford Univ.

 

[cgk]

Anyone have MCV/VCU 2011 Match list that they can please post? Much appreciated.

 

[LuckyST]

Neuronix, your post was interesting, but I still don't really buy your argument.

Look at your (Penn, right?) match list, then look at SUNY Stony Brook's Match list. If your theory that "school rep doesn't matter, it's all just regional bias" were true, then these lists would be virtually identical. But they aren't. Penn sends many more students to big name programs, both within the east coast and throughout the US.

I agree with you that regional bias is HUGE. Taking a glance at the match list for Penn and Stanford pretty much proves this. But it's only part of the equation. Stanford has a much more impressive match list than Loma Linda; and Penn has a much more impressive list than Thomas Jefferson. These differences are largely due to school prestige.

For those who believe that school prestige doesn't matter, I would strongly encourage you to ask any program director about this. In my experience, they are all very honest in stating that it plays a huge factor in residency recruitment.

 

[HealingSenses]

Well said! "Fit" trumps it all. Can you post Vandy's list? (I was kicking myself for giving up Vandy after I saw our school's list this year lol).

Not only that, but the people who attend an academic powerhouse like Penn often want a career in academia. Top schools generally require research experience and expect you to do some kind of research while you're there. Top residency programs often expect some kind of grad-level research because they're geared toward academics. So the two things are really almost symbiotic- big academic med schools accept kids who have research experience, groom them to get into big academic programs, and the big academic programs in turn accept those students (they know their mentors, trust that they have learned how to run a research study, realize those are the students who'll probably take best advantage of an academic program's resources) and groom them to become academic physicians. Those who get into the top programs from the smaller, less-research focused med schools probably had a rockier road because they had to prove that they could compete- but they're still more than capable of getting the job done.

People often forget that some of these things are self-selected. Honestly if you just want to become a general practice IM doc, going to MGH is kind of a waste. You may have the grades for it, but what's the point? Or, you may not have the grades- after all, why fight tooth and nail to be the best of the best if you don't have to? Some of these top programs last longer than usual (they often include research time), the patients are harder to work with because the hospitals are tertiary centers, you may have less attentive teachers because many of them are more research-focused, and they may be more malignant and intense than the less awe-inspiring programs. So why in the world would you put yourself through that if you don't have to?

You guys have to get out of the premed mindset. It's no longer about "going to the best place" or "picking the best specialty". Even if I somehow pulled a 270 on Step 1 out of my rectum, I'd rather be shot in the foot than become like, a neurosurgeon or a radiologist or a dermatologist. The specialties I like have a Step 1 average in the 220s, maybe 230s. To be totally safe and know that I'll get to be at least semi-selective when I apply to residency, I'd like to get something in the 240s. Will I aim for higher? Sure. But I'm not going to be sweating bullets for a month either. It's way more self-selected than y'all think.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

snip

So much good info in that post. Solid work. Good food for though for both sides of the ongoing specialty vs. primary care discussions going on in a few different places around here right now. Many thanks.

 

[Law2Doc]

I just went through the match from a top school for transitional year and competitive specialty, and I think this is absolute nonsense. I had what I thought was a very competitive application and I got beat out on my rank list by numerous people from lower tier schools.

In the first place, I think regional bias matters more than school rep. I didn't want to stay in my home region, did aways outside of here, did research outside of here, and it didn't matter. I couldn't get off the east coast. At least I went from northeast to southeast. I could have probably moved to the midwest if I really wanted to... But almost nobody does, and hence it's not competitive....

In the end, I'm sure I have swayed nobody. I've been on these forums near 10 years and everyone is convinced school rep means everything all the time. I've lived it (from no name undergrad to big name med school to competitive subspecialty), and I still think this "prestige" factor means little to nothing.

I've been saying this for quite some time as well. Folks believe what they want to believe. As a premed they think a "top ranked med school" is the ultimate achievement when in fact it's still simply base camp and the real mountain looms ahead in the form of Step 1 and networking and research other things that actually matter to residency directors. I also agree that regionality matters at some places. You don't have to go to med school necessarily at the place you want to do residency, but if you want to do your residency in, say, Nebraska, a program director isn't going to take you particularly seriously if you never lived in Nebraska and don't have a strong nexus to that location. I know PDs who won't even look at top applicants from top distant state med schools because there's a high likelihood that that person simply is casting a wide net and likely won't rank the program highly. PDs also sometimes won't look at certain med schools, even high ranking ones, because they've been burned by applicants year after year who feign interest and yet don't actually rank the program highly.

I also would suggest that there are huge flaws with how premeds interpret match lists, and suggest that every post above that suggests that "XYZ has a great list" is operating under multiple very questionable and even flawed assumptions. These lists probably shouldn't be a big factor in anyone's analysis of where to apply. Search for last years threads and you will see lots of posts by residents explaining why these lists aren't relevant or useful to premeds, who neither know what the good programs are in each specialty, nor do they really know what people were shooting for, just what they got. Often a list that looks great to a premed can still be one where most of the class feels they came up short, and sometimes a list that isn't as impressive might actually represent everyone in the school's dream first choice.

 

[gravitywave]

Neuronix, your post was interesting, but I still don't really buy your argument.

Look at your (Penn, right?) match list, then look at SUNY Stony Brook's Match list. If your theory that "school rep doesn't matter, it's all just regional bias" were true, then these lists would be virtually identical. But they aren't. Penn sends many more students to big name programs, both within the east coast and throughout the US.

I agree with you that regional bias is HUGE. Taking a glance at the match list for Penn and Stanford pretty much proves this. But it's only part of the equation. Stanford has a much more impressive match list than Loma Linda; and Penn has a much more impressive list than Thomas Jefferson. These differences are largely due to school prestige.

For those who believe that school prestige doesn't matter, I would strongly encourage you to ask any program director about this. In my experience, they are all very honest in stating that it plays a huge factor in residency recruitment.

you and your anecdotes again!! school attended is not anywhere near what PD's, in the aggregate, first consider. or are they all just lying to the NRMP survey?

YMMV, but that's not what we're talking about here. as for why Penn has a more "impressive" list than Jeff, that's been covered ad nauseum already. selection bias hurr durr

 

[Law2Doc]

Neuronix, your post was interesting, but I still don't really buy your argument.

Look at your (Penn, right?) match list, then look at SUNY Stony Brook's Match list. If your theory that "school rep doesn't matter, it's all just regional bias" were true, then these lists would be virtually identical. But they aren't. Penn sends many more students to big name programs, both within the east coast and throughout the US.
...

I would suggest that premeds are not in a good position to know which are the "big name programs" in each specialty. They are different in every specialty. And they often don't track what are perceived as the big name med schools. Every academic center is going to be good in some things, outright lousy and malignant in others. You do yourself a big disservice if you decide X is a "big name" and so it is good. It might be good for IM, and peds, but be among the worst choices for, say, gen surg or anesthesiology. Another place may be among the top programs for ortho, but scraping the bottom of the barrel for OBGYN. As a premed you probably won't know what is a good program. Even as a med student, you probably will only have a strong idea of what are the good programs in the specialty you are ultimately targeting, because you won't take the time to get the word of mouth about what's the hierarchy in other specialties. So to do a side by side analysis of two programs to see which has better luck with big name programs assumes you actually know which those programs are in each field. Few to no premeds do. So its a big waste of time.

I also would suggest that if a person gets a bona fide big name match, but it wasn't where he wanted, that's not necessarily the positive sign that someone reading a match list as a premed thinks it is. Let's say someone wanted derm or rad onc, but threw in a few big name IM programs as fallbacks. Or someone for family or other reasons really wanted a certain locale for residency, but threw in a big name place low on his rank list. He could have gotten bumped from his desired specialty or locale, and backed into the big name program you see. A premed reading the list would see a big name program, and consider it a positive. But for all you know this wasn't even in the top handful of choices for this applicant. Or maybe the big name place is everyone's least favorite option because it's known as malignant. As a premed you won't know this. As an applicant plugged into the word of mouth, you would.

There are numerous other reasons why match lists are not as useful as premeds like to think. The most important is that you never know what the people actually wanted, you just see what they actually got. So you don't know if people were aiming high and falling down, aiming low and hitting the target, getting exactly what they wanted, etc. And you don't really know if that mediocre IM program was someone's fall back, or if that person had the numbers for derm but chose to do something in a different specialty and in a particular locale instead.

 

[muncher]

Neuronix, your post was interesting, but I still don't really buy your argument.

Look at your (Penn, right?) match list, then look at SUNY Stony Brook's Match list. If your theory that "school rep doesn't matter, it's all just regional bias" were true, then these lists would be virtually identical. But they aren't. Penn sends many more students to big name programs, both within the east coast and throughout the US.

I agree with you that regional bias is HUGE. Taking a glance at the match list for Penn and Stanford pretty much proves this. But it's only part of the equation. Stanford has a much more impressive match list than Loma Linda; and Penn has a much more impressive list than Thomas Jefferson. These differences are largely due to school prestige.

For those who believe that school prestige doesn't matter, I would strongly encourage you to ask any program director about this. In my experience, they are all very honest in stating that it plays a huge factor in residency recruitment.

it's hard to tease apart how much of the difference is due to the school vs the students at the school

 

[Law2Doc]

...as for why Penn has a more "impressive" list than Jeff, that's been covered ad nauseum already. selection bias hurr durr

I'm not even sure selection bias is going to be as big a factor as the folks on SDN might believe. I would say pretty confidently that every person you see on the Penn list that you feel matched well (putting aside the fact that this call is based on assumptions) is going to have multiple co-residents from programs that don't have the same cache on SDN. You aren't matching based on home school -- you are matching based on your Step 1 scores, networking, research, and so on. There will be folks who have these credentials throughout the list of schools on USNews, and folks that don't. You aren't going to get them by attending a school that seemed to have a good match list in 2011, even assuming arguendo that you were able to interpret a match list.

 

[mTOR]

it's hard to tease apart how much of the difference is due to the school vs the students at the school

vs the faculty at the school.


LOR f/ Regionally known leader in the field --> huge regional impact, but modest to minimal influence on PD's at distant big names who are unfamiliar with regional leader
LOR f/ Internationally known leader in the field --> huge impact everywhere

Active leaders in the field tend to aggregate in the highest concentration at large academic medical centers. Going to medical school at these institutions increases the likelihood that you will be able to rotate with and have one co-sign your interest and aptitude for the field. This could possibly help explain both the regional and apparent "big name" bias.

I know this seemed to be true in my experience, where I had letters from both nationally known faculty and more regionally known faculty in my field and depending on where I was interviewing either one (i.e., the nationally known one) or both of their names were brought up during my interview.

 

[LuckyST]

I would suggest that premeds are not in a good position to know which are the "big name programs" in each specialty. They are different in every specialty. And they often don't track what are perceived as the big name med schools.

I am not a pre-med.

Also, it is pretty easy to tell what the big name programs are. Hospitals like MGH, B&W, UPenn, UCSF, JHU are good in virtually every specialty. These are great programs in IM, Gen Surg, Radiology (my field), Ortho, etc.

Obviously, there are exceptions. Some obscure places are huge names (e.g. the best ophtho program is in Miami, one of the best neuro programs is in Arizona), and some of these big name programs have weaknesses. But overall, the big name hospitals tend to contain the competitive residency spots.

I agree with you that match lists can be misleading, and should be used cautiously by pre-meds in choosing a school. But they are a pretty clear indication that where you go to school can have a huge impact on where you match.

 

[LuckyST]

you and your anecdotes again!! school attended is not anywhere near what PD's, in the aggregate, first consider. or are they all just lying to the NRMP survey?

I guess we can agree to disagree. But, IMHO, you are kidding yourself if you think that school name isn't a huge factor in the match, on par with Step 1, grades, and research experience.

The data is pretty clear. The top school's match lists are filled with big name matches. The "mid-tier" and "lower tier" schools' lists may have some big names sprinkled throughout, but are overall not as strong. This happens year, after year, after year, after year. It's pretty obvious what's going on.

Anyway, since this is a pre-med forum, you should choose a school where you will be happiest. Not the school with the best reputation, not the school with the best match list. You can overcome a lower tier med school with hard work; you will never get back those 4+ years of your life if you are miserable the entire time. I did this (turned down a bigger name medical school for a lesser known school), and it was the best decision I ever made.

 

[MCAT guy]

I guess we can agree to disagree. But, IMHO, you are kidding yourself if you think that school name isn't a huge factor in the match, on par with Step 1, grades, and research experience.

The data is pretty clear. The top school's match lists are filled with big name matches. The "mid-tier" and "lower tier" schools' lists may have some big names sprinkled throughout, but are overall not as strong. This happens year, after year, after year, after year. It's pretty obvious what's going on.

Wait? Is it pretty clear that the top schools already had top students that were great interviewers, standardized test takers, researchers, etc. OR is it pretty clear that PD are favoring top schools?

Sorry, my pretty clear detector isn't working today.

This would be like saying that the NFL likes to select players only from top schools...

OH wait! The top players happened to attend the top schools. The NFL just wanted the best players.

This is like the argument that schools with lots of in-state students tend to take in-state residencies. That's so weird!

 

[MCAT guy]

I've been saying this for quite some time as well. Folks believe what they want to believe. As a premed they think a "top ranked med school" is the ultimate achievement when in fact it's still simply base camp and the real mountain looms ahead in the form of Step 1 and networking and research other things that actually matter to residency directors.

Boom.

Truth.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
Also, it is pretty easy to tell what the big name programs are. Hospitals like MGH, B&W, UPenn, UCSF, JHU are good in virtually every specialty. ....

Um no. When I said EVERY institution is good in some specialties, not as good in others, malignant in others I wasn't excluding these.

I would suggest that if you are in fact in radiology, you are unlikely to know what the hierarchy is in other fields, so you are making statements well outside of your wheelhouse. How many radiologists keep abreast of how programs are regarded in every specialty -- answer zero.

The only way to know which are the big names versus the ones that maybe look good on paper but in fact aren't the top programs in a number of fields is to talk to folks in the specialty. Programs can be associated with a top med school but be known as malignant and truthfully be nobody's first choice. A program can be tops one year, and because of a change in chairman or program director become mediocre or downright malignant the next. The folks in the field who actually go to the national meetings and know the players will know which programs are good, which are up and coming, which are falling. So med students need to network, and find multiple mentors in the field who can tell you what's what. If you rely on logic like X hospital is a name I have heard of as being top notch so it "must be good in everything", you are going to end up at a malignant program that isn't as well regarded in the field as perhaps a different residency at that hospital is.

Sorry but you aren't correct.

 

[bobsmith]

2011 Match results HAVE BEEN released. I am posting here in anticipation to help have a clearinghouse of orderly information for schools and programs.

1) I do not want to debate the merits of this information. That is not the purpose of this thread.

I kind of figured this wouldn't last long...

 

[LuckyST]

Wait? Is it pretty clear that the top schools already had top students that were great interviewers, standardized test takers, researchers, etc. OR is it pretty clear that PD are favoring top schools?

Sorry, my pretty clear detector isn't working today.

Man, you guys on SDN are hostile here in the pre-med section.

You are totally right. There are tons of confounders, so it's hard to tell if it is really "school name" that is causing the good match list, or something else entirely.

The answer is probably- both. Top schools have great students. And PDs prefer top schools (even if everything else is equal) partially because they have a reputation for having great students.

 

[mountainhare]

This is an interesting debate.

Based on my personal experiences on the residency interview trail, some residency programs seem to strive hard to recruit kids who currently attend top medical schools; other residency programs blatantly state that don't care what medical school you go to. There is much variation among programs; a lot depends on the personality of the program director of the program in question. I've met some program directors who were themselves graduates of low-tier med schools and who therefore adamantly hold that school reputation shouldn't matter. On the other hand, I've also met some program directors who were themselves graduates of low-tier med schools and who have all the more respect for students from top-tier schools because of it. Because of the immense variation among programs, there will always be plenty of anecdotal evidence for both points of view in this debate.

Still, I agree with the above poster who says that regional bias is a much more important factor than most of us anticipated when we were naive pre-meds. Even trying to move from one Northeast city to another Northeast city can be maddeningly difficult.

Finally, I totally agree with Neuronix's fourth point. Every year, a lot of kids from top med schools choose to go into radiology or whatever because their IM 3rd-year clerkship was just too painful for words.

Keep posting match lists, though; I love them.

 

[LuckyST]

Um no. When I said EVERY institution is good in some specialties, not as good in others, malignant in others I wasn't excluding these.

I would suggest that if you are in fact in radiology, you are unlikely to know what the hierarchy is in other fields, so you are making statements well outside of your wheelhouse. How many radiologists keep abreast of how programs are regarded in every specialty -- answer zero.

...

Sorry but you aren't correct.

Again, why are you guys on SDN so hostile? It's really totally unnecessary.

I go to medical school, currently. I have friends applying in IM, ortho, Gen surg, etc, who have mentioned to me where they are applying and what the "top" programs are. I doubt my colleagues were lying to me that UCSF is great at IM, gen surg, and ortho.

Anyway, the purpose of this thread is supposed to be match lists, so I think this debate should stop or move elsewhere.

 

[Tiki]

UMDNJ RWJ's match list:

http://rwjms.umdnj.edu/education/admissions/documents/MATCHLIST2011.pdf

Quick breakdown:

Anesthesia: 16
Derm: 2
EM: 14
Gen surg: 13
Family: 7
IM: 32
Med-peds: 1
Neurology: 4
Neurosurgery: 3
Ob-gyn: 3
Ophtho: 5
Ortho: 5
Path: 1
Peds: 10
Integrated plastics: 1
Psych: 3
PM&R: 5
Rad Onc: 2
Rads: 10
Urology: 6
Vascular surg: 1

 

[jenesaispas0005]

Again, why are you guys on SDN so hostile? It's really totally unnecessary.

I go to medical school, currently. I have friends applying in IM, ortho, Gen surg, etc, who have mentioned to me where they are applying and what the "top" programs are. I doubt my colleagues were lying to me that UCSF is great at IM, gen surg, and ortho.

Anyway, the purpose of this thread is supposed to be match lists, so I think this debate should stop or move elsewhere.

I've been lurking through this thread the past few days, since, as a 4th year graduating student, I'm just curious to see where people in my class from other places are going. Seeing this thread deteriorate into a debate among people ranging from pre-meds to 3rd year students on who gets the 'top' programs and which schools are the best has been really disappointing. Why can't we all be mature adults and leave the high school BS behind? This is ridiculous.

And, as a note, I'm a DO student. So take what I say with a grain of salt, since I definitely didn't go to any of these places for med school. Although, interestingly, I managed to match into what has been listed on this thread as a 'top' program.

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

oh great, just what this thread needed... to add DO to the debate of high/mid/low tier...

 

[MCAT guy]

Man, you guys on SDN are hostile here in the pre-med section.

You are totally right. There are tons of confounders, so it's hard to tell if it is really "school name" that is causing the good match list, or something else entirely.

The answer is probably- both. Top schools have great students. And PDs prefer top schools (even if everything else is equal) partially because they have a reputation for having great students.

I apologize if I came off hostile. I would agree it is a mix of both, but I also believe we can look at the PD's surveys and see that they favor many factors above school rankings.

 

[LuckyST]

On an unrelated (but more relevant) note, does anyone out there have the match lists for HMS or JHU?

 

[abdoc]

Question -- would Mount Sinai be considered regional when applying for residencies? The 2011 Sinai match list seems to be an "improvement" over previous years. Is it considered a good school only if applying in the NYC area? DO PD's think as highly of Sinai across the board as NYU or Cornell?

 

[MCAT guy]

Again, why are you guys on SDN so hostile? It's really totally unnecessary.

I go to medical school, currently. I have friends applying in IM, ortho, Gen surg, etc, who have mentioned to me where they are applying and what the "top" programs are. I doubt my colleagues were lying to me that UCSF is great at IM, gen surg, and ortho.

Anyway, the purpose of this thread is supposed to be match lists, so I think this debate should stop or move elsewhere.

There was never even really a debate. The PD's have all done surveys in all the specialties mentioned above. We can just look at their responses to determine how much weight the your school plays. If I remember correctly, in most specialties it wasn't even one of the top 7 factors determining selection of residents.

 

[MCAT guy]

Question -- would Mount Sinai be considered regional when applying for residencies? The 2011 Sinai match list seems to be an "improvement" over previous years. Is it considered a good school only if applying in the NYC area? DO PD's think as highly of Sinai across the board as NYU or Cornell?

You will be fine.

Don't buy into the idea that your institution is the driver of residency selection.

 

[hellothere57]

can somebody please throw down on the harvard match list?