2012-2013 EM Rejection Thread

[Anon212]

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Got Regions today, too. So much joy is being brought to me.

 

[ROSY GOMER]

Anyone met by the sound of deafening silence? Applied to 34 originally. Have 8 offers, 3 rejections (Emory, Washington, Pitt) I added 11 more about a week ago after getting on this stupid board and hearing from my ObGyn friends about the 23 they had schedule by the first week of October from which I have 3 waitlists. Outside of that, nothing. 2nd SLOR wasn't up until the 22nd (my mistake, I thought it had been assigned. It was done on the 2nd but my school didn't get it up until the 16th). 223/240 applicant.

I'm in a similar position. I haven't had an invite in almost 3 weeks but many rejections and one waitlist over this period. I've been trying to email or call one or two programs a day, but so far I have been unsuccessful in actually getting ahold of a program coordinator. So far my emails gone unanswered. Not really sure what to do at this point as it seems too late in the game to apply to more programs given how crazy this season is.

 

[DB2013EM]

I just got axed by Medical Univ of SC. Oh well. Charleston will be more fun as a visit anyway. *optimism*

 

[sylvanthus]

Rejected by Regions, awesomesauce.

 

[SserPrun95]

I'm in a similar position. I haven't had an invite in almost 3 weeks but many rejections and one waitlist over this period. I've been trying to email or call one or two programs a day, but so far I have been unsuccessful in actually getting ahold of a program coordinator. So far my emails gone unanswered. Not really sure what to do at this point as it seems too late in the game to apply to more programs given how crazy this season is.

The thing is I haven't gotten interviews or rejections in really about 2 weeks. Pretty much everything came in over the span of maybe 10 days, then nothing. If they all came back with the axe then at least I would know where I stood.

 

[justin8818]

Just got MUSC as well. Along with Eastern Virginia Medical School. My rejections now outnumber my invites, how exciting.

I was going to try and update the list but that seemed like way too much work...

 

[Anon212]

Just got MUSC as well. Along with Eastern Virginia Medical School. My rejections now outnumber my invites, how exciting.

I was going to try and update the list but that seemed like way too much work...

Oh joy, something to look forward to when I come back from the gym. I just can't wait.

 

[ROSY GOMER]

AZ
Maricopa - invictusmaneo, neerdowell (10/25)

CA
UCSF - hypomanics (10/16) 2planker (10/26) harold and kumar (10/26)
UCLA/Olive view - hypomanics (10/21) mydocinabox () coralis
Harbor-UCLA - hypomanics (10/17)
USC-LAC - coralis (10/30)
Alameda County/Highland - ROSY GOMER (11/1)

CT
Univ of CT - hypomanics (10/10)

FL
USF Health Morsani - hypomanics, Kuba (10/23), RockTheBoat (10/24), coralis
UofF Gainsville - hypomanics (10/23), justin8818 (10/24), coralis
Orlando Health - hypomanics, justin8818 (10/25)

GA
Emory - mydocinabox (), hypomaniacs, RockTheBoat, invicusmaneo, justin8818, adizzmfresh (10/24)

IL
Northwestern - neerdowell, hypomanics (10/5)

LA
LSU Shreveport - justin8818 (10/22)
LSU NO - coralis (10/28)
LSU Baton Rouge coralis (10/29)

MA
Boston Univ - adizzmfresh (10/26)

MD
UMEM - neerdowell (10/26)

ME
Maine - mydocinabox ()

MI
Sinai-Grace - hypomanics (10/16)
Western Michigan - coralis (10/12)

MS
Univ of MS - hypomanics (10/22); coralis (10/28)

NC
CMC - RockTheBoat(10/24), coralis

NY
Univ of Rochester - hypomanics (10/23)
NYP - Kuba, neerdowell, hypomanics, adizzmfresh(10/25), coralis

OH
U of Cincinnati - justin8818 (10/22); coralis

PA
UPMC - hypomanics (10/16), neerdowell(10/24) dally1025, coralis
PennState - coralis
Univ of Pitt - coralis

WA
UW - hypomanics (10/12) mydocinabox () invictusmaneo, adizzmfresh(10/24), neerdowell (10/26) coralis (10/12)

 

[Anon212]

OHSU...3 in one day. Glad I went to the gym cause I'm too tired to care.

 

[bad virus]

Nvm

 

[sylvanthus]

OHSU here too dudes! Pretty freakin awesome week and a half.

Wonder if this streak is going to continue or what is going on? Good thing I applied to 123123123 programs and think I am sitting in a good spot. Really glad I didn't just apply to 20-30 programs or id have been screwed.

 

[Invictusmaneo]

OHSU and MUSC today I'm on a roll now, and nothing can stop me.

 

[ianjustlellis]

Got the big in ya face from OHSU 2day.

 

[2planker]

OHSU and Highland rejects!

 

[coffeeeandtea]

another one in the Highland pile. happy november!!

 

[Lanolin]

OHSU here too dudes! Pretty freakin awesome week and a half.

Wonder if this streak is going to continue or what is going on? Good thing I applied to 123123123 programs and think I am sitting in a good spot. Really glad I didn't just apply to 20-30 programs or id have been screwed.

Breath. You have plenty of spots 🙂 Lots of qualified people have recently experienced the rejection stick.

 

[sylvanthus]

Hah im alright dude, but thanks. I know I am sitting in a good spot right now, but rejections still blow. Also, being shot down at some of my top places this week makes it worse. But, ahh well. Likely we will all match and be fine.

 

[Hypomanics]

This week is craaaazy (*Tom Haverford voice*) with the rejections. Got Kaweah Delta just now..damn. They said they decided not to take anyone with prior GME training.

I'm updating the list by the way. Will post in a sec.

 

[Hypomanics]

AZ
Maricopa - invictusmaneo, neerdowell, hypomanics (10/25)

CA
UCSF - hypomanics, 2planker, harold and kumar (10/26)
UCSF Fresno - hypomanics (10/16), Anon212 (11/1)
UCLA/Olive view - hypomanics (10/21) mydocinabox () coralis
Harbor-UCLA - hypomanics (10/17)
USC-LAC - hypomanics, my doc in a box (10/29), coralis, bad virus (10/30), ROSY GOMER
Alameda County/Highland - ROSY GOMER, hypomanics, 2planker, coffeeeandtea (11/1)
Kaweah Delta - hypomanics (11/1)
UC Davis - hypomanics, sylvanthus (10/30)

CT
Univ of CT - hypomanics (10/10)

FL
USF Health Morsani - hypomanics, Kuba (10/23), RockTheBoat (10/24), coralis
UofF Gainsville - hypomanics (10/23), justin8818 (10/24), coralis
Orlando Health - hypomanics, justin8818 (10/25)

GA
Emory - mydocinabox, hypomaniacs, RockTheBoat, invicusmaneo, justin8818, adizzmfresh (10/24)

IL
Northwestern - neerdowell, hypomanics (10/5)

LA
LSU Shreveport - justin8818 (10/22)
LSU NO - coralis (10/28)
LSU Baton Rouge - coralis (10/29)

MA
Boston Univ - adizzmfresh, hypomanics (10/26)
BIDMC HAEMR - my doc in a box, 2planker (10/29)

MD
UMEM - neerdowell, my doc in a box, cougarY, So Say We All, hypomanics (10/26)

ME
Maine - mydocinabox

MI
Sinai-Grace - hypomanics (10/16)
Western Michigan - coralis (10/12)
Univ of MI - hypomanics

MN
Regions - hypomanics, Anon212, sylvanthus (11/1)
Hennepin EM/IM - hypomanics

MS
Univ of MS - hypomanics (10/22); coralis (10/28)

NC
CMC - RockTheBoat(10/24), coralis

NY
Univ of Rochester - hypomanics (10/23)
NYP - Kuba, neerdowell, hypomanics, adizzmfresh(10/25), coralis
SUNY Upstate - hypomanics

OH
U of Cincinnati - justin8818 (10/22); coralis

OR
OHSU - hypomanics, Anon212, sylvanthus, Invictusmaneo, ianjustlellis, 2planker (11/1)

PA
UPMC - hypomanics (10/16), neerdowell (10/24), dally1025, coralis
PennState - coralis
Univ of Pitt - coralis <-- coralis, this is UPMC unless you mean univ of penn

SC
MUSC - DB2013EM, justin 8818, Invictusmaneo (11/1)

VA
Eastern Virginia - justin8818 (11/1)

WA
UW - hypomanics, coralis (10/12), mydocinabox, invictusmaneo, adizzmfresh (10/24), neerdowell, dally1025 (10/26)

WI
Med College of Wisconsin - hypomanics

 

[Anon212]

4th one from Maine. Wow, today was a massacre.

 

[justin8818]

AZ
Maricopa - invictusmaneo, neerdowell, hypomanics (10/25)

CA
UCSF - hypomanics, 2planker, harold and kumar (10/26)
UCSF Fresno - hypomanics (10/16), Anon212 (11/1)
UCLA/Olive view - hypomanics (10/21) mydocinabox () coralis
Harbor-UCLA - hypomanics (10/17)
USC-LAC - hypomanics, my doc in a box (10/29), coralis, bad virus (10/30), ROSY GOMER
Alameda County/Highland - ROSY GOMER, hypomanics, 2planker, coffeeeandtea (11/1)
Kaweah Delta - hypomanics (11/1)
UC Davis - hypomanics, sylvanthus (10/30)

CT
Univ of CT - hypomanics (10/10)

FL
USF Health Morsani - hypomanics, Kuba (10/23), RockTheBoat (10/24), coralis
UofF Gainsville - hypomanics (10/23), justin8818 (10/24), coralis
Orlando Health - hypomanics, justin8818 (10/25)

GA
Emory - mydocinabox, hypomaniacs, RockTheBoat, invicusmaneo, justin8818, adizzmfresh (10/24)

IL
Northwestern - neerdowell, hypomanics (10/5)

LA
LSU Shreveport - justin8818 (10/22)
LSU NO - coralis (10/28)
LSU Baton Rouge - coralis (10/29)

MA
Boston Univ - adizzmfresh, hypomanics (10/26)
BIDMC HAEMR - my doc in a box, 2planker (10/29)

MD
UMEM - neerdowell, my doc in a box, cougarY, So Say We All, hypomanics (10/26)

ME
Maine - mydocinabox

MI
Sinai-Grace - hypomanics (10/16)
Western Michigan - coralis (10/12)
Univ of MI - hypomanics

MN
Regions - hypomanics, Anon212, sylvanthus (11/1)
Hennepin EM/IM - hypomanics

MS
Univ of MS - hypomanics (10/22); coralis (10/28)

NC
CMC - RockTheBoat(10/24), coralis

NY
Univ of Rochester - hypomanics (10/23)
NYP - Kuba, neerdowell, hypomanics, adizzmfresh(10/25), coralis
SUNY Upstate - hypomanics

OH
U of Cincinnati - justin8818 (10/22); coralis

OR
OHSU - hypomanics, Anon212, sylvanthus, Invictusmaneo, ianjustlellis, 2planker (11/1)

PA
UPMC - hypomanics (10/16), neerdowell (10/24), dally1025, coralis
PennState - coralis
Univ of Pitt - coralis <-- coralis, this is UPMC unless you mean univ of penn

SC
MUSC - DB2013EM, justin 8818, Invictusmaneo (11/1)
USC Palmetto - justin8818 (11/2)

VA
Eastern Virginia - justin8818 (11/1)

WA
UW - hypomanics, coralis (10/12), mydocinabox, invictusmaneo, adizzmfresh (10/24), neerdowell, dally1025 (10/26)

WI
Med College of Wisconsin - hypomanics

 

[mediumwhitecoat]

AZ
Maricopa - invictusmaneo, neerdowell, hypomanics (10/25)

CA
UCSF - hypomanics, 2planker, harold and kumar (10/26)
UCSF Fresno - hypomanics (10/16), Anon212 (11/1)
UCLA/Olive view - hypomanics (10/21) mydocinabox () coralis
Harbor-UCLA - hypomanics (10/17)
USC-LAC - hypomanics, my doc in a box (10/29), coralis, bad virus (10/30), ROSY GOMER
Alameda County/Highland - ROSY GOMER, hypomanics, 2planker, coffeeeandtea (11/1)
Kaweah Delta - hypomanics (11/1)
UC Davis - hypomanics, sylvanthus (10/30)

CT
Univ of CT - hypomanics (10/10)

FL
USF Health Morsani - hypomanics, Kuba (10/23), RockTheBoat (10/24), coralis
UofF Gainsville - hypomanics (10/23), justin8818 (10/24), coralis
Orlando Health - hypomanics, justin8818 (10/25)

GA
Emory - mydocinabox, hypomaniacs, RockTheBoat, invicusmaneo, justin8818, adizzmfresh (10/24), mediumwhitecoat

IL
Northwestern - neerdowell, hypomanics (10/5)

LA
LSU Shreveport - justin8818 (10/22)
LSU NO - coralis (10/28)
LSU Baton Rouge - coralis (10/29)

MA
Boston Univ - adizzmfresh, hypomanics (10/26)
BIDMC HAEMR - my doc in a box, 2planker (10/29)

MD
UMEM - neerdowell, my doc in a box, cougarY, So Say We All, hypomanics (10/26), mediumwhitecoat

ME
Maine - mydocinabox

MI
Sinai-Grace - hypomanics (10/16)
Western Michigan - coralis (10/12)
Univ of MI - hypomanics

MN
Regions - hypomanics, Anon212, sylvanthus (11/1)
Hennepin EM/IM - hypomanics

MS
Univ of MS - hypomanics (10/22); coralis (10/28)

NC
CMC - RockTheBoat(10/24), coralis

NY
Univ of Rochester - hypomanics (10/23)
NYP - Kuba, neerdowell, hypomanics, adizzmfresh(10/25), coralis, mediumwhitecoat
SUNY Upstate - hypomanics

OH
U of Cincinnati - justin8818 (10/22); coralis

OR
OHSU - hypomanics, Anon212, sylvanthus, Invictusmaneo, ianjustlellis, 2planker (11/1)

PA
UPMC - hypomanics (10/16), neerdowell (10/24), dally1025, coralis
PennState - coralis
Univ of Pitt - coralis <-- coralis, this is UPMC unless you mean univ of penn

SC
MUSC - DB2013EM, justin 8818, Invictusmaneo (11/1)
USC Palmetto - justin8818 (11/2)

VA
Eastern Virginia - justin8818 (11/1)

WA
UW - hypomanics, coralis (10/12), mydocinabox, invictusmaneo, adizzmfresh (10/24), neerdowell, dally1025 (10/26)

WI
Med College of Wisconsin - hypomanics

added my own rejections

 

[coralis]

AZ
Maricopa - invictusmaneo, neerdowell, hypomanics (10/25)

CA
UCSF - hypomanics, 2planker, harold and kumar (10/26)
UCSF Fresno - hypomanics (10/16), Anon212 (11/1)
UCLA/Olive view - hypomanics (10/21) mydocinabox () coralis
Harbor-UCLA - hypomanics (10/17)
USC-LAC - hypomanics, my doc in a box (10/29), coralis, bad virus (10/30), ROSY GOMER
Alameda County/Highland - ROSY GOMER, hypomanics, 2planker, coffeeeandtea (11/1), coralis (11/1)
Kaweah Delta - hypomanics (11/1), coralis (11/1)
UC Davis - hypomanics, sylvanthus (10/30)

CT
Univ of CT - hypomanics (10/10)

FL
USF Health Morsani - hypomanics, Kuba (10/23), RockTheBoat (10/24), coralis
UofF Gainsville - hypomanics (10/23), justin8818 (10/24), coralis
Orlando Health - hypomanics, justin8818 (10/25)

GA
Emory - mydocinabox, hypomaniacs, RockTheBoat, invicusmaneo, justin8818, adizzmfresh (10/24), mediumwhitecoat

IL
Northwestern - neerdowell, hypomanics (10/5)

LA
LSU Shreveport - justin8818 (10/22)
LSU NO - coralis (10/28)
LSU Baton Rouge - coralis (10/29)

MA
Boston Univ - adizzmfresh, hypomanics (10/26)
BIDMC HAEMR - my doc in a box, 2planker (10/29), coralis (10/26)

MD
UMEM - neerdowell, my doc in a box, cougarY, So Say We All, hypomanics (10/26), mediumwhitecoat

ME
Maine - mydocinabox

MI
Sinai-Grace - hypomanics (10/16)
Western Michigan - coralis (10/12)
Univ of MI - hypomanics, coralis (11/2)

MN
Regions - hypomanics, Anon212, sylvanthus (11/1), coralis (11/1)
Hennepin EM/IM - hypomanics

MS
Univ of MS - hypomanics (10/22); coralis (10/28)

NC
CMC - RockTheBoat(10/24), coralis

NY
Univ of Rochester - hypomanics (10/23)
NYP - Kuba, neerdowell, hypomanics, adizzmfresh(10/25), coralis, mediumwhitecoat
SUNY Upstate - hypomanics, coralis
Maimonidies - coralis (11/1)

OH
U of Cincinnati - justin8818 (10/22); coralis

OR
OHSU - hypomanics, Anon212, sylvanthus, Invictusmaneo, ianjustlellis, 2planker (11/1)

PA
UPMC - hypomanics (10/16), neerdowell (10/24), dally1025, coralis
PennState - coralis
Univ of Penn - coralis
Allegheny - coralis

SC
MUSC - DB2013EM, justin 8818, Invictusmaneo (11/1), coralis
USC Palmetto - justin8818 (11/2)

TX
Texas A&M - coralis (11/1)

VA
Eastern Virginia - justin8818 (11/1)

WA
UW - hypomanics, coralis (10/12), mydocinabox, invictusmaneo, adizzmfresh (10/24), neerdowell, dally1025 (10/26)

WI
Med College of Wisconsin - hypomanics

 

[coralis]

It has been a rough 4-5 days!!! Just under 10 rejections + Sandy.... I feel like Sandy did hit me...ugh... trying to hang on to optimism

 

[teacherman]

All I got today was another wait list at Wisconsin.

 

[QfeverQ]

All I got today was another wait list at Wisconsin.

I wonder why I haven't heard from Madison yet.

I got like 6 rejections and 1 invite this week.

 

[Lanolin]

I wonder why I haven't heard from Madison yet.

I got like 6 rejections and 1 invite this week.

Prob the same reason why I haven't heard from UW or UCSF yet...

 

[teacherman]

I wonder why I haven't heard from Madison yet.

I got like 6 rejections and 1 invite this week.

Wisconsin sent me 2 emails that I was on wait list. Maybe they sent me yours!

 

[DreamingTheLive]

Pitt & OHSU. I had forgotten I'd even applied to Pitt. OHSU really stung for some reason.

 

[my doc in a box]

I'm up to 2 weeks of straight rejects.


AZ
Maricopa - invictusmaneo, neerdowell, hypomanics (10/25)

CA
UCSF - hypomanics, 2planker, harold and kumar (10/26), mydocinabox
UCSF Fresno - hypomanics (10/16), Anon212 (11/1)
UCLA/Olive view - hypomanics (10/21) mydocinabox () coralis
Harbor-UCLA - hypomanics (10/17)
USC-LAC - hypomanics, my doc in a box (10/29), coralis, bad virus (10/30), ROSY GOMER
Alameda County/Highland - ROSY GOMER, hypomanics, 2planker, coffeeeandtea (11/1), coralis (11/1)
Kaweah Delta - hypomanics (11/1), coralis (11/1)
UC Davis - hypomanics, sylvanthus (10/30)

CT
Univ of CT - hypomanics (10/10)

FL
USF Health Morsani - hypomanics, Kuba (10/23), RockTheBoat (10/24), coralis
UofF Gainsville - hypomanics (10/23), justin8818 (10/24), coralis
Orlando Health - hypomanics, justin8818 (10/25)

GA
Emory - mydocinabox, hypomaniacs, RockTheBoat, invicusmaneo, justin8818, adizzmfresh (10/24), mediumwhitecoat

IL
Northwestern - neerdowell, hypomanics (10/5)

LA
LSU Shreveport - justin8818 (10/22)
LSU NO - coralis (10/28)
LSU Baton Rouge - coralis (10/29)

MA
Boston Univ - adizzmfresh, hypomanics (10/26)
BIDMC HAEMR - my doc in a box, 2planker (10/29), coralis (10/26)

MD
UMEM - neerdowell, my doc in a box, cougarY, So Say We All, hypomanics (10/26), mediumwhitecoat

ME
Maine - mydocinabox

MI
Sinai-Grace - hypomanics (10/16)
Western Michigan - coralis (10/12)
Univ of MI - hypomanics, coralis (11/2)

MN
Regions - hypomanics, Anon212, sylvanthus (11/1), coralis (11/1)
Hennepin EM/IM - hypomanics

MS
Univ of MS - hypomanics (10/22); coralis (10/28)

NC
CMC - RockTheBoat(10/24), coralis

NY
Univ of Rochester - hypomanics (10/23)
NYP - Kuba, neerdowell, hypomanics, adizzmfresh(10/25), coralis, mediumwhitecoat
SUNY Upstate - hypomanics, coralis
Maimonidies - coralis (11/1)

OH
U of Cincinnati - justin8818 (10/22); coralis

OR
OHSU - hypomanics, Anon212, sylvanthus, Invictusmaneo, ianjustlellis, 2planker (11/1), mydocinabox

PA
UPMC - hypomanics (10/16), neerdowell (10/24), dally1025, coralis
PennState - coralis
Univ of Penn - coralis
Allegheny - coralis

SC
MUSC - DB2013EM, justin 8818, Invictusmaneo (11/1), coralis
USC Palmetto - justin8818 (11/2)

TX
Texas A&M - coralis (11/1)

VA
Eastern Virginia - justin8818 (11/1)

WA
UW - hypomanics, coralis (10/12), mydocinabox, invictusmaneo, adizzmfresh (10/24), neerdowell, dally1025 (10/26)

WI
Med College of Wisconsin - hypomanics

 

[21isFun]

UCSD rejection today. In the last week, 1 invite, 1 waitlist (Stanford), and 2 rejections. Depressing...

 

[ianjustlellis]

Rejection from New Mexico

 

[Hypomanics]

Rejections today from Western Michigan, Genesys, & UT Houston.

 

[21isFun]

UCLA-Olive View- nothing like waking up to the smell of rejection in the morning!

 

[Anon212]

Lehigh Valley...I've gotten like 10 rejections in as many days. Where are the famous cancellation interviews everyone keeps talking about?

 

[K31]

Cinci rejection

 

[sylvanthus]

Stony brook.

 

[SserPrun95]

Got the axe from New Mexico yesterday. Orlando sent out an email saying all their slots are filled but that they will review as people cancel. Politest rejection yet. Got Maine last week. Others which are older are Emory, Seattle, and Pitt.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Cinci rejection

+1. And it was a really cold rejection too.

 

[my doc in a box]

Got my New mexico and san diego rejections yesterday. I pity them - they're going to miss out on my awesome dance moves.

 

[justin8818]

Saw on the class matching 2013 thread that UTSW Austin sent out invites. Checked my phone and saw the mythical "donotreply" email. I got so pumped, opened it up and........ rejected. Ha, this process is horrible.

 

[teacherman]

Saw on the class matching 2013 thread that UTSW Austin sent out invites. Checked my phone and saw the mythical "donotreply" email. I got so pumped, opened it up and........ rejected. Ha, this process is horrible.

Me too. Only place I applied in TX that I didn't get an interview. Oh well, if they don't want me, I don't want them.

 

[DB2013EM]

+1. And it was a really cold rejection too.

Yep, this. I guess Cincy sent out their second wave of rejections ha.

 

[my doc in a box]

+1 austin reject.

Since 10/20 I have had 13 straight rejects. Can anyone beat that?

 

[Invictusmaneo]

Austin. Not gonna lie, as a Texan, this one stung a bit.

 

[Anon212]

Iowa rejection. I'm now at something like 15 in a row.

 

[K31]

Another Austin reject here. Not a lot of Texas love for me.

 

[ROSY GOMER]

Iowa rejection as well, which was somewhat surprising. Didn't realize people are rushing to move to Iowa.

 

[peachate]

I love this thread. I've been lurking and just decided to share my pain with everyone. I do have 7 interviews at different places but have been rejected from University of Maryland, OHSU, MUSC, Maricopa, UC Davis, Emory, Fresno, and today Austin. I can't wait to see where I'll get rejected next!

 

[lemonsandlimes]

At this point Im discouraged
Step1 240
Step2 252
Step 2CS passed
Ranked 1st in my class
6 months of away rotations

2 aways in EM - 2 SLORS
1 neuro LOR
1 regular em LOR

1 interview (where I rotated)... 14 rejections

my rejections: UMNDJ, U of Washington, SFU, Emory, Mayo, Case Western, University of Michigan, Boston U, Tufts, Oregon, Allegheny, UT Huston and SUNY upstate
(In no particular order)

I applied to 38, think it is to late to increase that number/ would it even help??