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ASA and ABA are separate.
2020 oral boards
- Thread starter Simba1711
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ASA and ABA are separate.
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I know, i meant have ASA advocate for us to ABA. since i doubt ABA will give a crap what we say at all
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Their lack of respect for our time and effort is disheartening. After studying for months, working during a pandemic, and carving out time from our schedule to take this test, we have to wait until next year to do this all over...
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perhaps send in an advocacy request to [email protected] for them to advocate on our behalf.
the petition to change or waive the exam has reached 1700 signatures and has been ignored by ABA. not sure what else we can do. Would only take a couple minutes
the petition to change or waive the exam has reached 1700 signatures and has been ignored by ABA. not sure what else we can do. Would only take a couple minutes
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part of me is concerned that if everyone starts doing that they will be lacking funds, which means they will add oral exam part 3 and double the fees to make up for their lack of funding.
D
deleted697127
Focusing on the exam fee also minimizes the MUCH larger opportunity cost of studying, scheduling, taking time off, and annoyance of shifting call schedules in anticipation of exams that were ultimately cancelled last minute. Hindsight is 20/20 but the ABA has been stubbornly slow to react. The oral boards are supposed to test your ability to have adequate backup plans and adapt to rapidly changing situations in a systematic, controlled, and safe manner. They have slowly failed their mission statement.
Keep the fee to continue funding the board. Grandfather us in based on writtens for the year. Proceed with orals virtually for the next cohort.
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The American Board of Anesthesiology - Board of Directors
The American Board of Anesthesiology - Staff
It's either run by the board of directors who are MDs or have doctorates, so they're just having meetings everyday with no real conclusion. Or it's run by the staff, where there are no MDs, and they have no clue what is involved with preparing for oral boards except okay to take test or not okay to take test.
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Class action suit? I agree the fee is annoying but the time and issues with credentialing especially now is the worst of it. They really need to do what Canada did and certify all those who passed the written.
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Who has the money for class action lawsuit? It will also drag on for years probably. Most likely scenario is to either all email the directors of ABA, or get ASA to support their members and do something
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Can't see why a group of driven, intelligent physicians can't come together in a collective and collaborative effort to assert ourselves to the ABA more effectively? Whether it be a formalized petition with the assistance of the ASA or if it comes down to it, a class-action lawsuit.
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why arent they social distancing? everyone is supposed to social distance. at work we social distance and we have mask on. Department meetings are now virtual
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What? I can’t tell if this is a joke or not.
Why would it be a joke. Let’s be real, in our work lives we are not practicing social distancing. Our office is fairly small and we all hang out there without masks. We intubate random people. And that is just at work. Most people I know are out and about and going to restaurants, the beach on the weekend, gyms ect. Somehow the oral boards are too dangerous to administer???
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must be a situational thing.. cause that is definitely not true where i am at. perhaps you are in a less impacted region? or perhaps just not following recommendations.
our office is small too. We wear surgical masks, some of us wear N95s inside the office. All intubations are done with N95 + eye protection, and every intubated patient gets a Hepa filter. There's not much hanging out at work, since we are working. Theres no lounge. Restaurants/Gyms here are CLOSED except for some outdoor sitting areas.
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I agree with class-action lawsuit. There is no plan and no direction on the part of the ABA regarding this exam. Not to mention everyone will continue to practice anesthesia while not being board-certified - so what is the point of certification? Residency/fellowship is what makes someone a good anesthesiologist not a esoteric, subjective test given over a couple hours. If board certification is important then it should be required before one does ANY cases on their own. Either administer virtually NOW or give automatic certification with passage of the written... or class-action lawsuit.
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but whats your solution to the courts being severely backed up due to covid, and no result will effectly be passed on your lawsuit for a LONG time. by then they'll be administering tests again cause it'll be 2025
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Just because your workplace doesn't care doesn't mean other workplaces don't either. Maybe you need to find a better place to work?
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All I’m asking for at this point is a simple test date (which they won’t even give us) & a contingency plan should it get cancelled again (which they also won’t give us). Very simple and basic things honestly. Give us a test date, and have a virtual exam back up for the same day if travel becomes too dangerous again. Despite how pointless most of us know this exam is, we know they won’t give us a free pass bc there’s too much $$$ involved they’re depending on from us.
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In the webinar, they at one point said "we can't afford not to test." I was mostly just impressed with that degree of honesty.
It's definitely not about the $ for me at this point; heck, I'd give them MORE money if they just stopped jerking this year's candidates around and wasting our time.
It's definitely not about the $ for me at this point; heck, I'd give them MORE money if they just stopped jerking this year's candidates around and wasting our time.
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that's a ridiculous reason for testing. do you remember around what part of the webinar they said that?
tell them to start a gofundme page
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I rewatched it to make sure I gave accurate info. Here are the approximate timestamps for things I found interesting:
23:00 - said they were already working to double the size of the testing center before COVID (aka why they really need our $)
35:00 - said "we can't afford... to have people (candidates) in limbo for that long". So not exactly what I thought he said, but within context seemed like he was actually talking about money
51:00 - acknowledged that he has heard of the petition for virtual oral boards, but earlier cited the ABA's strong preference for in-person testing
57:00 - was asked about grandfathering in the 2020 cohort; essentially said it would cheapen our profession.
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i watched half of it, got annoyed by a lot of his non answers so i stopped watching it. maybe i'll finish it later.
i especially didnt like how he said they already changed the guidelines of the subspecialty exam so that they can take the exam without passing the applied, except the results wont be released until you pass the applied. amazing solution for all the fellows out there needing board certification
someone needs to tell them that no one will care if they grandfather the 2020 cohort due to covid. if they were truly against cheapening our profession, they wouldnt have grandfathered people into specialty boards without fellowship. and also their current behavior is cheapening our profession
They called each of the 7.5 people to apologize for cancelling the test. I told them that their actions thus far have been unprofessional. They are operating under the assumption that somehow in 2021 things will be better which is the same assumption that got us here in the first place. For some of us the 2021 exam will be the third time they will have made us study for this stupid exam. I told them that the only power they have is that we have no other option than them for board certification. Of course they just kept saying “sorry this is a difficult time for everyone”
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Who called. The secretary at their office?
But thanks. i feel like everyone should be doing that.
It was a physician on the board or something
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Seems like it would be easy enough to sit 10 feet apart, wear a mask, put up some big plexiglass dividers, and administer the exam.
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Just a thought, if they don’t want to administer the exam to us virtually for fear of someone sitting in the room off camera and examiners don’t want the risk of travel, why not reverse the virtual roles. I’m more than willing to travel to their little room in North Carolina and have someone give me the exam via Zoom from the safety of their own home. The board should be able to trust the examiners to administer the exam remotely.
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That’s a pretty damn good ideal!
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Only problem is that my hospital currently requires at least a 7 day quarantine upon returning from certain states & N. Carolina is one of them. Hopefully things change next year.
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I realize I’m a little unique but I can drive there within 6-8 hrs and not interact with anyone other than getting gas and other essentials. They are making this more difficult than it needs to be by having only one solution for all. I realize this isn’t a solution for everyone but it is a solution for more than a few. It’s not completely fair to everyone but COVID isn’t fair either. Reverse virtual exam would ease the backlog for the board and ease the burden for those that require air travel to North Carolina, examiners and test takers alike.
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With the 2020 oral board group, passing the written boards should qualify you for board certification this year. I realize it is easy to write off this oral board subthread, but hear me out on why it is so important to our whole specialty.
For those who are already board certified, remember how intimidating oral boards were. Many people spent months and months studying for it, sacrificing time with family and friends. Now imagine that 5 days before your exam, they cancel the test and not update you for almost 100 days. When they finally update you, they have no definite plan in effect and they hope to get you tested within the next year, although that cannot be guaranteed. The pandemic is still going strong with no end in sight. The majority of test takers need to fly to NC which puts you at a high risk. Flying may expose you, your family, your children to Covid. On top of that, many employers require mandatory quarantines after travel. Some people are being punished by not getting board certified with specialty exams. Some people are getting punished with partnership tracks because they are not board certified. You will now be 2-3 years out of residency before you can take oral boards... For the first time. For those who have already taken it, remember how much time and effort you put into taking this exam.
I'm only asking for a common sense solution to the roughly 1000 test takers this year. I have heard many different theories on how to modify the oral exam to get it proctored this year. The problem with this is... It is a modification to the standardized exam. Any modifications from baseline will change the controlled test scenario. Therefore it will not be standardized over time and shouldn't be compared to previous years. Even delaying it a full year assuming covid fully resolves means they are testing the 2020 class two years out of residency instead of one. It's not like this year's class has not been tested (they already took the written...)
I think the best answer is: attribute this year's certification to extraordinary events, pass everyone in 2020 who passed the written, and move on to the class of 2021 examination contingency plan.
For those who are already board certified, remember how intimidating oral boards were. Many people spent months and months studying for it, sacrificing time with family and friends. Now imagine that 5 days before your exam, they cancel the test and not update you for almost 100 days. When they finally update you, they have no definite plan in effect and they hope to get you tested within the next year, although that cannot be guaranteed. The pandemic is still going strong with no end in sight. The majority of test takers need to fly to NC which puts you at a high risk. Flying may expose you, your family, your children to Covid. On top of that, many employers require mandatory quarantines after travel. Some people are being punished by not getting board certified with specialty exams. Some people are getting punished with partnership tracks because they are not board certified. You will now be 2-3 years out of residency before you can take oral boards... For the first time. For those who have already taken it, remember how much time and effort you put into taking this exam.
I'm only asking for a common sense solution to the roughly 1000 test takers this year. I have heard many different theories on how to modify the oral exam to get it proctored this year. The problem with this is... It is a modification to the standardized exam. Any modifications from baseline will change the controlled test scenario. Therefore it will not be standardized over time and shouldn't be compared to previous years. Even delaying it a full year assuming covid fully resolves means they are testing the 2020 class two years out of residency instead of one. It's not like this year's class has not been tested (they already took the written...)
I think the best answer is: attribute this year's certification to extraordinary events, pass everyone in 2020 who passed the written, and move on to the class of 2021 examination contingency plan.
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We need a lot of signatures from our BC colleagues as well/possibly have them write up the actual petition.
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There was a recent petition that reached like 1700 signatures about moving it to virtual. It was fairly well written, but they kind of just ignored it.
I th ink a new petition should be created to simply BC the 2020 class, with virtual as backup if they refuse. 2021 can do contingency plans. Include they dont even need to return the money, make it an administrative fee or something.
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Incentive would be they dont have to worry about testing 1500 people. I would say most people would even agree to have them keep the fee, to resolve this mess. So they do have an incentive.
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They have no clue...
2020 group has one of the highest loans upon graduation, hundreds of thousands per person, with minimal savings
We graduate into a recession, and the worse pandemic in generations
Many of us have higher risk going to work with covid, and may be working longer hours especially in peak areas. Also have to deal with stress of possibly living away from family.
There is a lot of job insecurity, furlough, lack of work.
Not have BC only worsens this, delays/prevents us from getting raises, promotions, and even jobs itself .
Many of us have quarantine rules with the state or work after flying.
With all that, we have to somehow study, even multiple times, because they keep making changes last minute. Then they leave us dealing with canceling hotels, and plane tickets, etc.
None of them probably come close to understanding
In the webinar, they talked about how it would be unfair to previous groups who passed the Oral. This is just an excuse. Many senior anesthesiologists were grandfathered in subspecialty boards without a FELLOWSHIP. Just take a written exam. I would argue a 1 yr fellowship is worth way more than 1 oral exam.
Furthermore, they added OSCE and keeps adding more parts to it. Isn't it unfair to the previous groups, since they didnt have to take OSCE??
Im not good with writing at all. So i think someone good at it should write stuff up, get signatures, and also involve ASA.
Try emailing the president of teh ASA. She sends out monday emails every week. If enough people email (theres 1500 ppl affected, non anesthesiologists can email too), she should make a response
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I think getting the ASA involved may help. Does someone with better English then me want to right this up?
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Video Statement from ABA Secretary on the Cancellation of 2020 APPLIED Exams - ABA NEWS
ABA Secretary David O. Warner, M.D., explains in the video below our rationale for cancelling this year’s APPLIED Exams and addresses our plans for the future. It is with deep regret that the Board has cancelled APPLIED Exam Weeks 7.5-9. This decision was made in light of travel restrictions...
aba-news.org
Video from Warner. Claim to exam everyone by the end of next year. Virtual if necessary.
Sorry but Im over the virtual exam as well. By the end of 2021 it could potentially be almost 3 yrs since Ive done any anesthesia.
We ALL have to adapt to Covid and future similar potential catastrophes. We have had a good run of BC years and BC of already prepared 2020 candidates is reasonable and as virtual Cohort; we are all sitting ducks here as bigger assault is happening daily from all angles. Ironically the oral test itself is about how fast you can adapt to the new unknown, not wait 1 hour or next year as it is now. Let's lead with example. Let's stand together and focus on what is really important.
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Passinggasbutnotboards
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While I know that video was well-intentioned, it kind of rubbed me the wrong way. In it he states,
"We know how significant this exam is to your career advancement."
Lol...well, it's only significant because you arbitrarily say that's it's significant. Then he apologizes for the added stress (again, added stress that they are voluntarily making us endure....for an abnormally extended period of time).
Also, there was no mention of our $2400 fees? If it's going to be a year before I have to take it, can I at least have my money back for that year?
"We know how significant this exam is to your career advancement."
Lol...well, it's only significant because you arbitrarily say that's it's significant. Then he apologizes for the added stress (again, added stress that they are voluntarily making us endure....for an abnormally extended period of time).
Also, there was no mention of our $2400 fees? If it's going to be a year before I have to take it, can I at least have my money back for that year?
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If more people complain more, to ABA, and ASA, or anywhere, it will put more pressure on them to act. i highly doubt they posted this 4 months after the first cancellation, because they are sitting at home with nothing to do. They are probably receiving some complaints, or at least aware
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Complaints only matter when there’s a governing body to which the entity being complained about is held accountable. Who holds the ABA accountable?
Foregoing oral boards for 2020 grads will only jeopardize the future of the exam for all future classes. “If the 2020 grads didn’t have to take it, why should we?”
the ABA royally screwed up by not having a clear contingency plan. Now the new grads have to pay the price for it - just like they have to pay the price for all the mistakes/laziness of the previous generation of anesthesiologists (who also make up the ABA board)
Foregoing oral boards for 2020 grads will only jeopardize the future of the exam for all future classes. “If the 2020 grads didn’t have to take it, why should we?”
the ABA royally screwed up by not having a clear contingency plan. Now the new grads have to pay the price for it - just like they have to pay the price for all the mistakes/laziness of the previous generation of anesthesiologists (who also make up the ABA board)
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It will not jeopardize examinations of future classes because they will likely not be dealing with a pandemic.
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what i meant to say was that it would jeopardize their ability to defend the validity of having an oral exam in the first place. Same thing with Step 2 CS. These are all money making exams and getting rid of them for one year gives ammo to the cohort of people who Are to get rid of board certification (or just oral boards) altogether
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i get what you are saying but i dont think this is true. a lot of changes are made with all types of things due to emergencies. If instead of pandemic, we are dealing with ww3, and US is getting actively bombed, i dont think people will fault them to waive it and say , hey in ww3 you waived it, how can you justify not waiving it now?
Furthermore, canada and europe already waived it. They have doctors there too. There's no reason why this would only be a problem for us in the US if we waive it. Besides, like i mentioned above, this isn't too different from them grandfathering in senior anesthesiologists from needing to do a fellowship, or not requiring BC anesthesiologists to do the OSCE. And those werent even in pandemic situations
I was one of the week 7.5 candidates who got jerked around by the ABA's back and forth and lack of preparedness. I agree with what a lot of you are saying. We should absolutely make our voices heard in as large numbers as possible. For those who could use some help with how/where to direct their grievances, ABA secretary Dr. Warner should be contacted at the following email address:
[email protected]
At this point it appears there is no resolution that would occur within a reasonable time frame. I for one am not okay with losing a year of income and opportunity, not to mention the sacrifices that went into preparing for an exam that would never happen. If there is similar interest I am willing to put together a petition to have the exam waived and the 2020 cohort grandfathered in as was done for other cohorts across the world who were probably not even as severely affected as us.
[email protected]
At this point it appears there is no resolution that would occur within a reasonable time frame. I for one am not okay with losing a year of income and opportunity, not to mention the sacrifices that went into preparing for an exam that would never happen. If there is similar interest I am willing to put together a petition to have the exam waived and the 2020 cohort grandfathered in as was done for other cohorts across the world who were probably not even as severely affected as us.
