32 year old accountant wants to get into medical school

[jellybeanjane]

Hi everyone:

It has taken me a while to come out and ask for opinions on my situation.

Summary of my background and stats:

- 32 year old Canadian Chartered Accountant (equivalent to the cpa designation in the States) that is originally from Toronto, Canada.

- graduated from the University of Waterloo's Chartered Accountancy program in 2002 (10 years ago) with a disgraceful 2.73 gpa or 72.6% based on 132 credits. All courses taken were accounting, audit, and tax.

- want to pursue medicine (have all along) and returned to school at the University of Buffalo three years ago to complete all the core course requirements.

- my gpa at UB is 3.98 based on 70 credits which include all core course requirements.

- my overall gpa for Waterloo and UB together is 3.17.

- I am planning to take the MCAT soon but want to get feedback on what you think based on the above alone.

Before I decided to take the core course requirements, I knew that my chances of getting into medical school were slim to none. That's just the reality based on my Waterloo gpa. There is no way I will get into a Canadian medical school. I accept that. I doubt I will get accepted into a US medical school too. Maybe someone might forgive my history but most will throw the book at me. I am trying for Caribbean medical schools. I am hoping that those schools might forgive my history. It's only hope though.

I have tried to get opinions from colleagues and friends who have been through the process but because my background is very unusual, no one really knows.

I am hoping that this forum can give me some feedback. The truth. If I suck, it's better to know now and accept it than waste more time on this pursuit.

I hope that because my Waterloo gpa was from 10-13 years ago, that might help my case.
Having said that, I am still accountable to it. I also hope that having the Chartered Accountant designation will also give me credit. Whether it actually will, who knows.

I have no idea where I stand. It would be great to get some advice. Any advice. My main concerns are my age and my Waterloo gpa.

Thank you.

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[jellybeanjane]

Hi everyone:

It has taken me a while to come out and ask for opinions on my situation.

Summary of my background and stats:

- 32 year old Canadian Chartered Accountant (equivalent to the cpa designation in the States) that is originally from Toronto, Canada.

- graduated from the University of Waterloo's Chartered Accountancy program in 2002 (10 years ago) with a disgraceful 2.73 gpa or 72.6% based on 132 credits. All courses taken were accounting, audit, and tax.

- want to pursue medicine (have all along) and returned to school at the University of Buffalo three years ago to complete all the core course requirements.

- my gpa at UB is 3.98 based on 70 credits which include all core course requirements.

- my overall gpa for Waterloo and UB together is 3.17.

- I am planning to take the MCAT soon but want to get feedback on what you think based on the above alone.

Before I decided to take the core course requirements, I knew that my chances of getting into medical school were slim to none. That's just the reality based on my Waterloo gpa. There is no way I will get into a Canadian medical school. I accept that. I doubt I will get accepted into a US medical school too. Maybe someone might forgive my history but most will throw the book at me. I am trying for Caribbean medical schools. I am hoping that those schools might forgive my history. It's only hope though.

I have tried to get opinions from colleagues and friends who have been through the process but because my background is very unusual, no one really knows.

I am hoping that this forum can give me some feedback. The truth. If I suck, it's better to know now and accept it than waste more time on this pursuit.

I hope that because my Waterloo gpa was from 10-13 years ago, that might help my case. Having said that, I am still accountable to it. I also hope that having the Chartered Accountant designation will also give me credit. Whether it actually will, who knows.

I have no idea where I stand. It would be great to get some advice. Any advice. My main concerns are my age and my Waterloo gpa.

Thank you.

 

[ejw5075]

I have nothing meaningful to contribute except to tell you that you do not "suck". GL

 

[lkthlttr]

Hi everyone:

...

I have no idea where I stand. It would be great to get some advice. Any advice. My main concerns are my age and my Waterloo gpa.

Thank you.

First, not all Canadian schools are necessarily out of reach. I know that at least Western Ontario has a policy of looking at only your best two undergraduate years as long as you meet their steep MCAT subsection requirements (which vary every year, but have in the past 3 years required a score of 11 on the verbal section). The great thing is that if you meet their cutoffs and other requirements you're guaranteed an interview. I'm not as familiar with the other schools, but there is at least a sliver of hope in Canada.

Second, I would very much urge you to investigate osteopathic schools before committing yourself to going to the Caribbean. There has been much debate on these forums about the subject and if you do a search you are likely to find more than you can possibly read on the matter, but the bottom line is that going to the Caribbean is a risky proposition. There simply aren't the same support services at Caribbean schools that one finds in North American schools, many drop out before graduating, and among those that do graduate, the prospects of matching either in the United States or Canada, are considerably lower. Yes you've dug yourself a big hole with your GPA from your first degree, but it isn't impossible to get out of and the fact that your cGPA is now above 3.0 as a result of your impressive showing at Buffalo suggests that you should be able to record a high score on the MCAT and from there you have a reasonable chance at an acceptance to a North American medical school.

Are you a permanent resident in the States?

 

[alexrgross]

That GPA is low, but your UB performance shows promise...and if you get say, 35-38 on the MCAT I think you can be accepted into USMCs.
As for you age, that should not be a concern for Med Schools - are you worried about something on the subject of your age?

 

[StoicJosher]

Before considering Caribbean, I would suggest looking into DO schools as well. They have a grade replacement policy that will help bring up your GPA.

What have you done in terms of shadowing doctors, gaining clinical experience and patient exposure? You will need a solid application in all other categories to make up for the low GPA. Also, you will need to explain why you want to leave a job you have to go into medicine. It is not going to look good if you come across as a 32 year old who just figured out what he/she wants to be when they grow up. You need to show commitment and dedication to medicine and the best way to do that is getting lots of clinical experience and thoroughly fortifying that desire (saying you have always wanted to become a doctor isn't going to cut it either).

It is going to be a hard road but I think you can make it if you work on it.

 

[artsciencelove]

I'm 36, I had a 3.3 GPA for undergrad, 4.0 post-bacc (4 semesters), and a 35 MCAT. I thought my chances were also slim, but I got accepted. Most medical schools don't really care about your age so long as you're under 40, or they actually see it as a benefit - diversity for their school. You really have to be able to answer the question - why do you want to be a doctor, when you already have a career?

 

[Catalystik]

Hi everyone:

It has taken me a while to come out and ask for opinions on my situation.

Summary of my background and stats:

- 32 year old Canadian Chartered Accountant (equivalent to the cpa designation in the States) that is originally from Toronto, Canada.

- graduated from the University of Waterloo's Chartered Accountancy program in 2002 (10 years ago) with a disgraceful 2.73 gpa or 72.6% based on 132 credits. All courses taken were accounting, audit, and tax.

- want to pursue medicine (have all along) and returned to school at the University of Buffalo three years ago to complete all the core course requirements.

- my gpa at UB is 3.98 based on 70 credits which include all core course requirements.

- my overall gpa for Waterloo and UB together is 3.17.

- I am planning to take the MCAT soon but want to get feedback on what you think based on the above alone.

Before I decided to take the core course requirements, I knew that my chances of getting into medical school were slim to none. That's just the reality based on my Waterloo gpa. There is no way I will get into a Canadian medical school. I accept that. I doubt I will get accepted into a US medical school too. Maybe someone might forgive my history but most will throw the book at me. I am trying for Caribbean medical schools. I am hoping that those schools might forgive my history. It's only hope though.

I have tried to get opinions from colleagues and friends who have been through the process but because my background is very unusual, no one really knows.

I am hoping that this forum can give me some feedback. The truth. If I suck, it's better to know now and accept it than waste more time on this pursuit.

I hope that because my Waterloo gpa was from 10-13 years ago, that might help my case.
Having said that, I am still accountable to it. I also hope that having the Chartered Accountant designation will also give me credit. Whether it actually will, who knows.

I have no idea where I stand. It would be great to get some advice. Any advice. My main concerns are my age and my Waterloo gpa.

Thank you.

I don't think your age is an issue. Your recent excellent performance will help you a lot. I think many DO schools will be interested in you. And I've heard that Wayne (MD) tends to look mostly at GPA for the last 30 credit hours, so apply there too, as well as others depending on MCAT results. I suggest you call some DO schools and ask their opinion. You can look at this booklet, too, to get an idea of GPA minimums and school requirements:
DO MSAR http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/2012cib/2012cib-whole.pdf

or this: DO GPA cut offs: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=7199902&postcount=2

Be aware of this, since it might make a difference if you retook any classes: the AACOMAS grade forgiveness policy. The retake need not be at the same school. The course name needn't be identical so long as the course content is demonstrably similar per the course catalogs. When one retakes, only the most recent grade is included in the calculation of your application GPA by AACOMAS.

And this:
DO schools needing DO recommendation: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=10677&d=1217108730

 

[paeony]

I would urge you to get the MSAR and see what the GPA range is for some of the lower ranked MD schools (non-Caribbean). You obviously did very well during your post-bac years and that is something that some schools will notice ESPECIALLY if you are able to score a high MCAT score.

I also agree with PP in looking into DO schools. I'm not sure how you feel about DO schools vs Caribbean MD schools. I think good things can be said about both. I also think there are some really excellent DO schools out there. I think they will be a little bit tough to get into based on your UWaterloo GPA but if you have a compelling story, strong post-bac GPA, strong MCAT score and great ECs you will get a look.

In general, I don't think your age is a significant flag. At the same time, I don't think it's NOT a flag. Even though medical schools say that they welcome all ages, I don't think it's entirely true. I am similar in age to you and just went through the interview process. I got a fair amount of interviews so obviously the age thing, if it was a flag, was made up for by some other strengths in my application. I am still waiting to hear back about final decisions though so can't really say for sure...

Overall, I think if you play your age to your advantage (good story, interesting life experiences, etc) and you have a good pre-med record, your age will help you.

Good luck!

 

[Goro]

Ahh, here's an example of the desired upward trend. I have seen a good number of my own students who have backgrounds just like yours. For DO schools you will need to replace those poor grades with re-takes. Do well on the MCAT, get plenty of patient-centered ECs (not just shadowing) and you should be OK.

Oh, being an accountant doesn't mean anything to an AdCom. Your age is a positive factor, I personally like more mature students. You'd be surprised what babies some of my students can be!
good luck!

Hi everyone:

It has taken me a while to come out and ask for opinions on my situation.

Summary of my background and stats:

- 32 year old Canadian Chartered Accountant (equivalent to the cpa designation in the States) that is originally from Toronto, Canada.

- graduated from the University of Waterloo's Chartered Accountancy program in 2002 (10 years ago) with a disgraceful 2.73 gpa or 72.6% based on 132 credits. All courses taken were accounting, audit, and tax.

- want to pursue medicine (have all along) and returned to school at the University of Buffalo three years ago to complete all the core course requirements.

- my gpa at UB is 3.98 based on 70 credits which include all core course requirements.

- my overall gpa for Waterloo and UB together is 3.17.

- I am planning to take the MCAT soon but want to get feedback on what you think based on the above alone.

Before I decided to take the core course requirements, I knew that my chances of getting into medical school were slim to none. That's just the reality based on my Waterloo gpa. There is no way I will get into a Canadian medical school. I accept that. I doubt I will get accepted into a US medical school too. Maybe someone might forgive my history but most will throw the book at me. I am trying for Caribbean medical schools. I am hoping that those schools might forgive my history. It's only hope though.

I have tried to get opinions from colleagues and friends who have been through the process but because my background is very unusual, no one really knows.

I am hoping that this forum can give me some feedback. The truth. If I suck, it's better to know now and accept it than waste more time on this pursuit.

I hope that because my Waterloo gpa was from 10-13 years ago, that might help my case.
Having said that, I am still accountable to it. I also hope that having the Chartered Accountant designation will also give me credit. Whether it actually will, who knows.

I have no idea where I stand. It would be great to get some advice. Any advice. My main concerns are my age and my Waterloo gpa.

Thank you.

 

[Alex557]

It's not your job to reject yourself, leave that to the admission committee! You might be the perfect applicant for School A but a total turn off for School B. But you'll never know until you get out there and test your assumptions. Don't automatically count yourself out, you don't know what's really possible for you.

Let the admissions committees do their jobs so you can focus on wowing the people who do want you to be apart of their community.

I agree with the others on you needing to show that you're interested in medicine besides taking a bunch of classes. How can you show that you're different from all the other career changers out there? What's your true motivation? How can you stand out?

I was told by current residents and the doctors in my family that no one cares what you studied in college or what your old job was. The admissions committees are only concerned with how you can prove that you can become a relevant asset to their community. How can you add value to their reputation? Their student body? To society after you graduate? Do you have the capacity to pass Step 1, Step 2, and so forth? Can they admit you and be assured that you'll graduate? Or do you come off as a total risk who will fail to get his medical license? Are you a liability or asset?

And what happens if you're rejected? So what, you can always apply again!

There are three women ages 35-53 who graduated last year from the George Washington University School of Medicine. Yes that's right, one of the graduates is 53 years old and here's her direct quote from the article:

“I had dreamed about doing this ever since I was a little girl, but frankly once I turned 45, I thought I was going to have to give that dream up,” said Ms. Boling, of Pasadena, Calif. But when her marriage fell apart in 2005, Ms. Boling decided to give it a try.

It's never too late and don't reject yourself before other people do. Focus on your goal and work your butt off.

Read the George Washington School of Medicine article on older students here, enjoy it!

 

[jellybeanjane]

Thank you for your responses...very detailed and so very helpful...

I intend to apply to both DO and MD schools as my objective is getting the opportunity to practice medicine. Having said that, I am not very familiar with DOs as a profession and have concerns about whether DOs can practice medicine outside of the States (ie, is it recognized abroad). My understanding is that it is something that only the States recognize.

I recognize that for me, any chance of getting into medical school will be determined by the MCAT. The MCAT will show what both gpas are really worth. For me, my 72.6% from Waterloo was more difficult to get than the 3.98 from UB. The reason is, I was forced into getting the CA designation. I went to Waterloo as a 17 year old kicking and screaming. While I had to accept that I was going to be a CA, I was defiant and only did the minimum I needed to get through. I never thought that 10 years later, I would find myself trying to get into medicine. Had I known that, I might have had a different strategy. However, at the end of the day, I am accountable to my behavior. There are kids out there who try to do well regardless of their circumstances. And these are the ones that are more deserving to get into medicine.

That is why the Caribbean schools are so important to me because they might be the only chance I have. I have heard of the challenges associated with them (ie, reputation which translates to more difficulty in getting residency), but I am also very aware of my 72.6% from Waterloo. I am in no position to be picky. I will be so grateful to any medical school that is willing to take me.

While I do have permanent residency in the States, state schools are still tough to get into.

 

[fahimaz7]

u wil be fine. no one cares what happened 10 years ago.

 

[Alex557]

Ahh, here's an example of the desired upward trend. I have seen a good number of my own students who have backgrounds just like yours. For DO schools you will need to replace those poor grades with re-takes. Do well on the MCAT, get plenty of patient-centered ECs (not just shadowing) and you should be OK.

Oh, being an accountant doesn't mean anything to an AdCom. Your age is a positive factor, I personally like more mature students. You'd be surprised what babies some of my students can be!
good luck!

Exactly!

If your grades aren't swell then improve them or at least do one of those special masters degree programs. My school offers one: Boston University School of Medicine - Masters in Medical Science. I've heard that lots of people have gotten into MD and DO schools through this track, so have a plan A and B. I have a plan A,B,C,and D, though I hope Plan A works out just fine

Being 32 is quite cool because you can be role model to the younger students. You can tell them stories about what is was like in the real world after college or what it's like to work in a career that's not satisfying. And some of the students might feel more comfortable telling you about their personal problems and struggles to succeed because you're older and more mature. You're an asset.

 

[Catalystik]

I am hoping that this forum can give me some feedback.

I have no idea where I stand. It would be great to get some advice.

Do you want to tell us about your relevant extracurricular activities?

 

[jellybeanjane]

Do you want to tell us about your relevant extracurricular activities?

In terms of volunteering:

(1) I have been shadowing a doctor in Toronto on the weekend. Having said that, because of my background, I actually function more in the doctor's office as the bookkeeper. That is a fine line.

(2) When I was in high school almost 17 years ago, I volunteered in a Toronto hospital with maybe 500 hours total.

(3) I spent three months in South Africa volunteering at a children's orphanage however, my responsibilities only involved changing diapers, feeding, taking the babies to clinics. There was really no valuable medical experience there. But at the same time, one could argue that in substance, there is really no medical experience involved in volunteering in a hospital other than getting exposure into the environment itself.

I worry a lot because I know I am lacking in too many places both with my gpa and volunteering. I hope that if an academic committee does look at my case, they will notice that I did most of my volunteering during a period of my life that had nothing to do with wanting to do medicine or anything health care related. I was an accountant and accepted that profession as my fate.

I enjoy the aspect of helping others which is inherently embedded in health care related professions and something I have been unable to find and fulfill as an accountant.

 

[Catalystik]

In terms of volunteering:

(1) I have been shadowing a doctor in Toronto on the weekend. Having said that, because of my background, I actually function more in the doctor's office as the bookkeeper. That is a fine line.

(2) When I was in high school almost 17 years ago, I volunteered in a Toronto hospital with maybe 500 hours total.

(3) I spent three months in South Africa volunteering at a children's orphanage however, my responsibilities only involved changing diapers, feeding, taking the babies to clinics. There was really no valuable medical experience there. But at the same time, one could argue that in substance, there is really no medical experience involved in volunteering in a hospital other than getting exposure into the environment itself.

I worry a lot because I know I am lacking in too many places both with my gpa and volunteering. I hope that if an academic committee does look at my case, they will notice that I did most of my volunteering during a period of my life that had nothing to do with wanting to do medicine or anything health care related. I was an accountant and accepted that profession as my fate.

I enjoy the aspect of helping others which is inherently embedded in health care related professions and something I have been unable to find and fulfill as an accountant.

Starting soon, to update your clinical experience, do you think you could manage 3 hours a week of volunteering in a local medical environment (skilled nursing home, hospital, clinic, hospice, rehab center), or even in the private office where you do bookkeeping (perhaps acting as the receptionist, if they are open on Saturday)?

How often have you been able to observe the physician interact with patients?

Have you given time in the community at all, like with scouts, sporting teams, fund raisers, etc?

Any hobbies, sports, artistic endeavors, other leisuretime activities? Any awards, honors, or recognitions?

Any leadership, teaching, tutoring, coaching, mentoring?

All these things have a place on your application.

 

[jellybeanjane]

Starting soon, to update your clinical experience, do you think you could manage 3 hours a week of volunteering in a local medical environment (skilled nursing home, hospital, clinic, hospice, rehab center), or even in the private office where you do bookkeeping (perhaps acting as the receptionist, if they are open on Saturday)?

How often have you been able to observe the physician interact with patients?

Have you given time in the community at all, like with scouts, sporting teams, fund raisers, etc?

Any hobbies, sports, artistic endeavors, other leisuretime activities? Any awards, honors, or recognitions?

Any leadership, teaching, tutoring, coaching, mentoring?

All these things have a place on your application.

I am very appreciative to you for your advice and comments...

I agree that I have to contribute more to volunteering. I have been hesitant and somewhat resistant to doing more volunteering at this time because my thought is that I could have a million hours of volunteering but I need to do well on the MCAT. I should see how well I do on the MCAT.

The thing is, for me, any chance I have of getting into medical school will be determined by the MCAT. The MCAT will show what both gpas are really worth. For me, my 72.6% from Waterloo was more difficult to get than the 3.98 from UB. The reason is, I was forced into getting the CA designation. I went to Waterloo as a 17 year old kicking and screaming. While I had to accept that I was going to be a CA, I was defiant and only did the minimum I needed to get through. I never thought that 10 years later, I would find myself trying to get into medicine. Had I known that, I might have had a different strategy. However, at the end of the day, I am accountable to my behavior. There are kids out there who try to do well regardless of their circumstances. And these are the ones that are more deserving to get into medicine.

I wanted to ask you if you could give me some insight into whether DOs can practice medicine outside of the States (ie, is it recognized abroad) and what your thoughts are on Caribbean medical schools.

Caribbean schools are so important to me right now because they might be the only chance I have. I have heard of the challenges associated with them (ie, reputation which translates to more difficulty in getting residency), but I am also very aware of my 72.6% from Waterloo. I am in no position to be picky. I will be so grateful to any medical school that is willing to take me.

 

[Catalystik]

I agree that I have to contribute more to volunteering. I have been hesitant and somewhat resistant to doing more volunteering at this time because my thought is that I could have a million hours of volunteering but I need to do well on the MCAT. I should see how well I do on the MCAT.

The thing is, for me, any chance I have of getting into medical school will be determined by the MCAT. The MCAT will show what both gpas are really worth. For me, my 72.6% from Waterloo was more difficult to get than the 3.98 from UB. The reason is, I was forced into getting the CA designation. I went to Waterloo as a 17 year old kicking and screaming. While I had to accept that I was going to be a CA, I was defiant and only did the minimum I needed to get through. I never thought that 10 years later, I would find myself trying to get into medicine. Had I known that, I might have had a different strategy. However, at the end of the day, I am accountable to my behavior. There are kids out there who try to do well regardless of their circumstances. And these are the ones that are more deserving to get into medicine.

1) a) I wanted to ask you if you could give me some insight into whether DOs can practice medicine outside of the States (ie, is it recognized abroad) and b) what your thoughts are on Caribbean medical schools.

2) Caribbean schools are so important to me right now because they might be the only chance I have. I have heard of the challenges associated with them (ie, reputation which translates to more difficulty in getting residency), but I am also very aware of my 72.6% from Waterloo. I am in no position to be picky. I will be so grateful to any medical school that is willing to take me.

1) a) Yes they can.
DO International Practice Rights: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=107627
DO/Canadian province practice rights: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=8365157&highlight=Brunswick#post8365157

b) I don't know the perspective of Caribbean schools from a Canadian point of view (I think maybe you are limited in the residency you can get into). From the American perspective, getting back into the US for a residency can be difficult (50% chance), attrition rates are high, graduation rates are low, and choice of specialty is limited. But for US MD schools, 96% graduate and for DO, I believe it is nearly as high.

2) After all you've accomplished in your last 70 hours of coursework, don't let your gumption fail you now. Concentrating on getting a decent MCAT score is your next goal so that Caribbean is not your only option.

 

[clausewitz2]

Some countries won't recognize DO degrees, but this is less of a problem than it used to be. Furthermore, some countries that don't officially recognize them will let DOs practice after a kind of probation period unofficially (Singapore, for instance).

Speaking of Singapore, you might consider the Duke-NUS program before Carribean schools. Much more of the support you'd expect and better connections for matching in North American residencies. Also cheaper than US medical schools! There is a service commitment for foreigners, but you can discharge that after doing a residency back in North America. I adore Singapore (developed, Anglophone, amazing food, everything just works), but YMMV.

 

[JJMrK]

Threads merged.