38yr old Career Changer

[RorySF]

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I'm 38 and presently in the middle of a career change.
I'm deciding between Medical School and Nurse-Prac/Phys-Ass route. Right now I'm in my second semester back at college and I should make a decision whether or not to pursue Med school in the next few months (because NP/PA pre-reqs are different from Med-School pre-reqs)
I didn't list reasons for career change because my post is already long.


A little about my recent history:
I have a Bachlor's in Photography GPA 3.52
I have a Master's in Film/Video production GPA 3.71
I worked in Television & Documentary films for 10 years (2 Emmy awards)

I became a registered E.M.T. 9 months ago (just to get a taste of emergency medicine and loved it). I was the top student in the EMT program (for whatever that's worth)
However, I only volunteer as an E.M.T. occasionally because I can make as much money freelance editing 9 days a month.

Since being back at school I've taken a Medical Chemistry class, and Microbiology (also some Gen Ed stuff) and got all A's. I'm scheduled to take two separate Anatomy and Physiology classes this spring.
However, if I decide to pursue Med school I'm considering a Post-Baccalaureate program for Pre-Med (because my background in Fine Art is so different)

I'm thinking of Emergency Medicine. I like the idea of being a "Jack of all Trades". But maybe I'm prejudice because my only taste of Healthcare has been in emergency


The types of things I'd like to discuss are:

1) Is a Post-Bacc a good choice in my situation?

2) 1-2yrs Post-Bacc.....4yrs Med School.....3yrs Resident for Emergency. I'll be 48 before I start practicing as a doctor. Will my age be a barrier to getting in to Med School?
(BTW I'm very athletic...still sparr with the young boxers, and look about 30)

3) I'd be funding my education & living all with loans. For Post-Bacc & Med-School I could be looking at $350k in debt. I figure if I make $220k/year for 18-20 years I could manage that debt. What could I realistically expect to make? Any advice on funding??

4) Any thoughts on Med School vs NP/PA?
NP/PA I'm looking at about $150 in debt....but 25 years of working (as opposed to 20yrs as a Dr.)

 

[NuttyEngDude]

there are older people than you who are going/have gone back. age is not a problem. i'm about your age and am going back, just starting my pre-reqs this semester (in another week).

i cant answer the other questions.

good luck!

 

[DrMidlife]

I made the leap at 38 as well.

1) Is a Post-Bacc a good choice in my situation?

Postbac means any undergrad taken after receiving a baccalaureate (bachelors) degree. If you want to know if a structured formal premed program is a good choice, that depends on what you need to thrive. The structured programs are mostly at small private schools. Which is great if it's where you want to be. Or, you can do med school prereqs and get ready to apply by rolling your own program, anywhere you can get yourself admitted. I vote no on CC's, but others vote yes.

2) 1-2yrs Post-Bacc.....4yrs Med School.....3yrs Resident for Emergency. I'll be 48 before I start practicing as a doctor. Will my age be a barrier to getting in to Med School?
(BTW I'm very athletic...still sparr with the young boxers, and look about 30)

I feel very strongly that age isn't a barrier. GPA, MCAT and likability can be barriers, as can entitlement and a lack of humility. Make sure you have mentors that can get to know you well, and will call you on your crap as you proceed.

3) I'd be funding my education & living all with loans. For Post-Bacc & Med-School I could be looking at $350k in debt. I figure if I make $220k/year for 18-20 years I could manage that debt. What could I realistically expect to make? Any advice on funding??

The financial landscape might change completely or not at all over the next ten years. Avoid private loans entirely, only do federal or state. Try to get into a public med school with instate tuition. Maybe marry a Texan. Military scholarships aren't completely off the table, even though the posted age limit is 35 or so.

4) Any thoughts on Med School vs NP/PA?
NP/PA I'm looking at about $150 in debt....but 25 years of working (as opposed to 20yrs as a Dr.)

I have 2 sisters who are PAs, and they're just nowhere near as maniacal about their jobs as I've always been. One's pretty happy with her career (she likes something called "life balance" whatever that is), the other will never forgive herself for not doing med school, poor thing (her MCAT was better than mine).

The best advice I've seen yet is this: if there's anything you'd be happy doing other than medicine, then for the love of all that's holy do the other thing.

Best of luck to you.

 

[MightyMoose]

I selected "Yes" for a major point you have not considered. This is that you might be a year behind your schedule due to your application year. Outside of that, I think your plan sounds good.

A couple things:

You don't need a formal post-bacc, but if you want to start one, don't waste your money on extra classes now.

I think the classes you are taking sound good and will start to build a nice foundation, but might set you back in your timeline. If I were you, I would just start completing the pre-requisites now, then you could complete them by next summer and apply for the Fall of 2013. There is plenty of info out there about timelines, but you essentially need 1 year of bio, 1 year of gen chem, 1 year of physics, and 1 year of Organic Chemistry. I would also advise you to take an arts class (which I know you have plenty of), in order to get a non-science letter of recommendation from a professor there. Seeing as you won 2 Emmy's, I can't imagine you would have any trouble with the arts or getting a letter from an arts prof.

If you want to be a doc, I would go the medical route. If you want to be in the medical field, but don't really care about being a doc then I would go the PA route.

 

[Quik]

$350k in debt sounds pretty outrageous. The median debt load of Med Students is about $140k, according to the latest poll I've read. Also, I wouldn't worry so much about the money, if it's truly what you want to do.

Maybe others have also mentioned, there are often +40 y/o students matriculating into med school, so you're not going to be unheard of old.

Sounds like you're cultivating a well thought out plan, I say do it.

 

[RorySF]

I made the leap at 38 as well.

Postbac means any undergrad taken after receiving a baccalaureate (bachelors) degree. If you want to know if a structured formal premed program is a good choice, that depends on what you need to thrive. The structured programs are mostly at small private schools. Which is great if it's where you want to be. Or, you can do med school prereqs and get ready to apply by rolling your own program, anywhere you can get yourself admitted. I vote no on CC's, but others vote yes.

I guess I like the idea of a formal Post-Bacc program because this is such a different field than what I'm used to....and the formal programs seem to hold your hand through the process (i.e. classes in taking the MCAT & Interviewing)

I feel very strongly that age isn't a barrier. GPA, MCAT and likability can be barriers, as can entitlement and a lack of humility. Make sure you have mentors that can get to know you well, and will call you on your crap as you proceed.

What do you mean by "Entitlement" and "Lack of Humility"?

The financial landscape might change completely or not at all over the next ten years. Avoid private loans entirely, only do federal or state. Try to get into a public med school with instate tuition. Maybe marry a Texan. Military scholarships aren't completely off the table, even though the posted age limit is 35 or so.

Why avoid private loans?
Isn't there a lifetime max on Federal loans you can receive?
I'd like to avoid private loans but I'm afraid I may have no choice.

I have 2 sisters who are PAs, and they're just nowhere near as maniacal about their jobs as I've always been. One's pretty happy with her career (she likes something called "life balance" whatever that is), the other will never forgive herself for not doing med school, poor thing (her MCAT was better than mine).

I would like some life balance. I realize that is not possible while in Med-School and a residency. But is it possible when practicing?
I'm thinking of just working in an ER....not starting my own private practice

 

[RorySF]

$350k in debt sounds pretty outrageous. The median debt load of Med Students is about $140k, according to the latest poll I've read. Also, I wouldn't worry so much about the money, if it's truly what you want to do.

How much does Med-School cost?

I thought it was about $30k-$50k per year.
I'll plan on the high side to be safe so 4yrs of med school is $200k.
I probably can't work much in Med-School so I'll need about $30k per year for living...that's $120 for 4 years.
I think I'll get paid enough to live on during internship/residency.
Add some for a Post-Bacc program and unexpected stuff and it's a total of about $350k.

Are my numbers wrong?
If so please tell me.

I'd also love to be wrong about the cost of Med-School.....If so please tell me.

 

[Quik]

How much does Med-School cost?

I thought it was about $30k-$50k per year.
I'll plan on the high side to be safe so 4yrs of med school is $200k.
I probably can't work much in Med-School so I'll need about $30k per year .

Tuition can certainly be that high- depending on where you go. I assume by your screen name (RorySF), that you're in CA, and in the case that you're accepted to a state school, you're looking at $20-$25k for tuition. Otherwise, it is a big unknown. I would think $30k/year for living expenses would be high, but again, that depends on where you are and the lifestyle you choose to maintain. I just don't think beyond rent, food, and basic bills and necessities, that your schedule will allow you to spend as much as you may think. Regardless, it IS f'ing expensive, and talking about numbers is arbitrary until you know where you're going. Anyway, best of luck to you.

Not to answer your question directed back at Dr. Midlife, but if you're looking for good (bad) examples of humility and entitlement, spend a bit of time in the pre-med forum. You'll get a sense of the attitude she's talking about.

 

[MightyMoose]

How much does Med-School cost?

I thought it was about $30k-$50k per year.
I'll plan on the high side to be safe so 4yrs of med school is $200k.
I probably can't work much in Med-School so I'll need about $30k per year for living...that's $120 for 4 years.
I think I'll get paid enough to live on during internship/residency.
Add some for a Post-Bacc program and unexpected stuff and it's a total of about $350k.

Are my numbers wrong?
If so please tell me.

I'd also love to be wrong about the cost of Med-School.....If so please tell me.

No school will give you 30k to live on a year in loans, unless you have a very high cost of living in the area (e.g., New York), but even then, I'm not sure they would.


The average COA is ~20k.

If your school is ~40K + 20K in COA = 60k/year * 4 = 240k + ~ 50k for your post-bacc (that is on the high end) = 290k in debt for PB and Med school.

 

[RorySF]

Not to answer your question directed back at Dr. Midlife, but if you're looking for good (bad) examples of humility and entitlement, spend a bit of time in the pre-med forum. You'll get a sense of the attitude she's talking about.

Thanks for your advice....My questions are for anyone with insight, so I appreciate any knowlageable help.

I'll look at the Pre-Med forum that you suggested. But I thought "Entitlement" meant coming from a middle or upper class background.
I come from a slightly lower-middle class background.
But now I'm poor as dirt (tough times).

OR does "Entitlement" mean an "I'm the smartest guy ever" attitude.
Having worked on an amublance I can easily admit to being a "rookie". I could not run an emergency call the way a good SF Paramedic does.

That's good to hear that Med-School might be much less than I thought.
Yes I'm in Calli.....but realistically I may need relocate depending where I can get accepted.
$30k per year is a fairly basic living in Calli.
If I can live cheaper I will (I don't expect to be going out to expensive dinners or skiing while in Med-School

 

[RorySF]

No school will give you 30k to live on a year in loans, unless you have a very high cost of living in the area (e.g., New York), but even then, I'm not sure they would.


The average COA is ~20k.

If your school is ~40K + 20K in COA = 60k/year * 4 = 240k + ~ 50k for your post-bacc (that is on the high end) = 290k in debt for PB and Med school.

$290k Maximum sounds much better than $350k.
If I can get by on $20k I will.....but not anywhere near SF.
Yeah $50k for Post-Bacc is about what I planned.

So how much can I expect to make when I start practicing?
Assuming I'm working in a hospital....say in an ER?
I'm not motivated to build a private practice.

That will determine how much debt I can comfortably carry.

I'm never going to be a "country-club-Jaguar-driving" doctor.....that's fine with me. I just need to make enough to carry $3k per month in loan payments and have enough left to not live like a poor student.

 

[MightyMoose]

$290k Maximum sounds much better than $350k.
If I can get by on $20k I will.....but not anywhere near SF.
Yeah $50k for Post-Bacc is about what I planned.

So how much can I expect to make when I start practicing?
Assuming I'm working in a hospital....say in an ER?
I'm not motivated to build a private practice.

That will determine how much debt I can comfortably carry.

I'm never going to be a "country-club-Jaguar-driving" doctor.....that's fine with me. I just need to make enough to carry $3k per month in loan payments and have enough left to not live like a poor student.

This site will give you some insight into specialties and provide some salary info as well:

https://www.aamc.org/students/medstudents/cim/63550/specialties/

 

[DrMidlife]

What do you mean by "Entitlement"

This is when a candidate thinks he/she doesn't need to jump through the prescribed hoops, or doesn't need to do any more than the minimum, because he/she's entitled to a seat in med school. Doesn't fly.

and "Lack of Humility"?

This is when a candidate has no sense of how freaking lucky they are to be applying to med school. Aka lack of perspective, aka lack of gratitude, aka lack of exposure to people who have nothing. Doesn't fly.

Why avoid private loans?

Federal loans are predictable and have multiple convenient and/or essential rules that allow for deferments and repayment programs. Private loans make their own rules. It's pretty tough to find a private loan lender that offers a fixed interest rate, painless deferment during med school or income-based repayment during residency. Private loans can be bought or sold by banks. If you get 9 federal loans you have one loan servicer, but if you get 9 private loans you can have 9 loan servicers even if you got them all from the same lender originally.

Nobody cares about this now, but if you die, your estate (thus your family) is on the hook for private loan balances, unlike federal loans (discharged at your death). In a bankruptcy, federal loans aren't forgiven but private loans sometimes are.

Isn't there a lifetime max on Federal loans you can receive? I'd like to avoid private loans but I'm afraid I may have no choice.

In undergrad there's a limit. Last I checked, you can borrow $10.5k per year for postbac or a 2nd degree. This is where the private loan temptation will be strongest. I recommend a plan that has you working during your application year to pay off any private loans before med school.

In grad/med school, the limit is cost of attendance as set by the school. $8500 per year is Stafford subsidized which doesn't accrue interest during school, another (I can't remember, is it 25k?) is Stafford unsubsidized, which accrues, and the balance is Grad Plus, which requires clean credit and isn't quite as tasty a deal as Stafford, and accrues. The Staffords have a lifetime limit of something like $185k. There should be no need for private loans during med school under normal circumstances.

I would like some life balance. I realize that is not possible while in Med-School and a residency. But is it possible when practicing?I'm thinking of just working in an ER....not starting my own private practice

People who prioritize life balance can find it anytime. I suggest you'll want to spend several days shadowing docs (NOT just ER docs, and NOT just while you're working as an EMT). Most med schools require shadowing anyway.

Best of luck to you.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

OR does "Entitlement" mean an "I'm the smartest guy ever" attitude.

my view of entitlement in this sense is the general attitude that the world owes you something, or more specifically the attitude that "of course i will be made a doctor, dont you know who i am or what i've accomplished?"

so it isnt necessarily a hard fact, like someone is from a specific background, more of their attitude and how they present themselves.