3rd year DO looking at diagnostic radiology

[Cowboys05]

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First post here

Step 1: 254

Level 1: 672

No research from med school (some from undergrad, don’t know if that helps any). I hate doing research in general.

Will have good LOR


With my stats would matching into a top 25 program be possible? I know some top DR programs don’t really take DO’s. I know Cleveland clinic takes a couple every year it seems. I don’t mind where I live, and actually prefer not to be on the coasts. So would places like mayo (Rochester), duke, university of Michigan be possible? Would also apply to other mid to upper tier Midwest programs that take DO’s like Cleveland clinic, university of Wisconsin, university of Virginia, northwestern, wake forest, Indiana, etc.



Thanks in advance for any input!

 

[DrWhozits]

First post here

Step 1: 254

Level 1: 672

No research from med school (some from undergrad, don’t know if that helps any). I hate doing research in general.

Will have good LOR


With my stats would matching into a top 25 program be possible? I know some top DR programs don’t really take DO’s. I know Cleveland clinic takes a couple every year it seems. I don’t mind where I live, and actually prefer not to be on the coasts. So would places like mayo (Rochester), duke, university of Michigan be possible? Would also apply to other mid to upper tier Midwest programs that take DO’s like Cleveland clinic, university of Wisconsin, university of Virginia, northwestern, wake forest, Indiana, etc.



Thanks in advance for any input!

Two things:

1) Chances of Duke, Michigan, Virginia, Wake Forest and Indiana for DR is very, very slim. Particularly with no research.

2) If you hate doing research, why would you be concerned with “Top 25” programs that are ranked as such due to their focus on research?

There are plenty of DR programs that take DOs and plenty that would love to have applicants with your stats, but not really the ones you listed minus CCF.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

With my stats would matching into a top 25 program be possible?

Without research? No. Even then top rads programs are pretty anti-DO. However you will be able to match at a great program that won’t hinder your career in any way.

 

[sab3156]

First post here

Step 1: 254

Level 1: 672

No research from med school (some from undergrad, don’t know if that helps any). I hate doing research in general.

Will have good LOR


With my stats would matching into a top 25 program be possible? I know some top DR programs don’t really take DO’s. I know Cleveland clinic takes a couple every year it seems. I don’t mind where I live, and actually prefer not to be on the coasts. So would places like mayo (Rochester), duke, university of Michigan be possible? Would also apply to other mid to upper tier Midwest programs that take DO’s like Cleveland clinic, university of Wisconsin, university of Virginia, northwestern, wake forest, Indiana, etc.



Thanks in advance for any input!

As said above, the fact that you are a DO makes matching at the vast majority of top programs impossible without connections. Should have done research with influential faculty. But as you said, you hate research... so I am confused as to why you would want to go to places that will be heavily research focused.

 

[Cowboys05]

Thanks for the replies. I’m just trying to get a feel for how things are. You guys are right, I really don’t want to go to a research oriented academic residency. So what are some Midwest residencies that more fit my application? Places like Iowa, Beaumont, UNC, USC?

Thanks again for the help

 

[moyamoya6]

Thanks for the replies. I’m just trying to get a feel for how things are. You guys are right, I really don’t want to go to a research oriented academic residency. So what are some Midwest residencies that more fit my application? Places like Iowa, Beaumont, UNC, USC?

Thanks again for the help

You can look it up on Freida to see if your score makes their cut off and if they have taken any DOs in the past. That site isn’t definite though, but can give you an idea. There’s a DO at UNC Chapel Hill.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Thanks for the replies. I’m just trying to get a feel for how things are. You guys are right, I really don’t want to go to a research oriented academic residency. So what are some Midwest residencies that more fit my application? Places like Iowa, Beaumont, UNC, USC?

Thanks again for the help

@SpartanWolverine

 

[ChicagoBear]

So what are some Midwest residencies that more fit my application? Places like Iowa, Beaumont, UNC, USC?

Thanks again for the help

FYI - Iowa has no DO's currently in the DR residency program. Their website lists all GME grads since 2005 - there has only been one DO (who graduated in 2013) in the program. While several residencies at Iowa are DO friendly, the DR residency seems to prefer FMGs to DOs. While the vast majority of each class are US MDs, each year there are some MBBS from India/Pakistan and/or MDs from Japan, Korea etc.

 

[Cowboys05]

Hmm, why the FMGs over DO’s. Seems weird. So what are some good DR residencies in the Midwest that don’t put a big focus on research? I’m trying to look a lot of this stuff up, but am largely being unsuccessful. Best thing I can do so far is go to each residencies website and sometimes they are helpful, so,times not.

 

[sab3156]

Hmm, why the FMGs over DO’s. Seems weird.

Not as weird as you think. Some places will just never touch a DO unless there are influential connections at work. Look at Harvard/MGH's IM program. They consistently take people from overseas schools, but they will never seriously consider a DO. Harvard/MEEI's ophthalmology residency program has graduated some foreign graduates, but will never touch DO applicants with a 10 foot pole. Residency programs across New York City openly discriminate against DOs and still take FMGs. The stigma associated with the "DO" letters is sometimes too real.

 

[DarkHorizon]

Not as weird as you think. Some places will just never touch a DO unless there are influential connections at work. Look at Harvard/MGH's IM program. They consistently take people from overseas schools, but they will never seriously consider a DO. Harvard/MEEI's ophthalmology residency program has graduated some foreign graduates, but will never touch DO applicants with a 10 foot pole. Residency programs across New York City openly discriminate against DOs and still take FMGs. The stigma associated with the "DO" letters is sometimes too real.

May be, but those FMGs are exceptionally bright and are usually cream of the crop from their respective countries, unlike most of the D.O. grads.
Just saying like it is.

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

May be, but those FMGs are exceptionally bright and are usually cream of the crop from their respective countries, unlike most of the D.O. grads.
Just saying like it is.

Those FMGs are exceptionally bright, nobody is arguing that. But those same programs take students from Carribean schools. I would say that the applicant pool for most DO schools is much better than the Carribean pool. It isn’t like there hasnt been one outstanding DO student who has t applied to one of the aforementioned programs. It’s discrimination, pure and simple. If you don’t believe that than I’m not sure what kind of rock you’ve been living under. Just sayin it like it is

 

[Cowboys05]

I agree. If I’d have known this going back I wouldn’t have cancelled my interviews at a few MD schools after I got accepted at KCOM. Had no idea some residencies maintained bias.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Those FMGs are exceptionally bright, nobody is arguing that. But those same programs take students from Carribean schools. I would say that the applicant pool for most DO schools is much better than the Carribean pool. It isn’t like there hasnt been one outstanding DO student who has t applied to one of the aforementioned programs. It’s discrimination, pure and simple. If you don’t believe that than I’m not sure what kind of rock you’ve been living under. Just sayin it like it is

Lol show me where a Carib matched at MEEI for ophtho... or MGH IM.

I agree. If I’d have known this going back I wouldn’t have cancelled my interviews at a few MD schools after I got accepted at KCOM. Had no idea some residencies maintained bias.

And this is why we tell every pre-med that MD>DO.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I would say that the applicant pool for most DO schools is much better than the Carribean pool.

Not really.... the average USMLE for DO students as a whole is most likely lower than 220. Not including the outliers from either pool they likely are extremely similar.

It isn’t like there hasnt been one outstanding DO student who has t applied to one of the aforementioned programs.

I think you are overestimating how many DOs are out there that have an app competitive enough for MGH IM and the ilk... yes there is bias buts let’s not pretend that 98% of DO applicants can even dream about MGH IM.

 

[Cowboys05]

I don’t disagree with you that DO’s have a low usmle average. But I got a 254, not a 220. So idk the bias stays with DO’s that have better scores, but it does.

Also, wish my advisors would have told me MD>DO because I’d have definitely listened. Here’s to being an ignorant undergrad a few years ago.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

So idk the bias stays with DO’s that have better scores, but it does.

Yes it does. Matching to top programs takes a lot more than a good board score, at that level everyone has a good board score.

 

[sab3156]

Lol show me where a Carib matched at MEEI for ophtho... or MGH IM.

True, I thought he was referring to the New York programs that have an obvious hatred for DOs.

I do personally know and have worked with several faculty members that went to relatively unknown schools in other countries and went to MEEI Ophtho for residency, though, which is pretty awesome for them. I know for a fact, though, that MEEI will never take a DO, ever.

And this is why we tell every pre-med that MD>DO.

They will never accept the truth until they realize how many places they are barred from even with a 280 Step 1.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

True, I thought he was referring to the New York programs that have an obvious hatred for DOs.

True. Although from what I hear through the grapevine is those programs aren't very good and have a pretty malignant culture because they know they can beat the crap out of the IMGs and they won't complain. Not somewhere I would want to be personally so I don't feel slighted in the least that they won't consider me.

I know for a fact, though, that MEEI will never take a DO, ever.

For residency probably not but they have taken them for fellowship, although never say never. I doubt that UW was ever planning on taking a DO for plastics or ortho either. You never know when the right candidate will come along in the right set of circumstances that will make residency PD's consider a DO.

Obviously no one should ever plan on being that person, that's not what I'm saying, only that it wouldn't really shock me if it happened someday.

several faculty members that went to relatively unknown schools in other countries and went to MEEI Ophtho for residency

Unknown to us maybe, but most of the FMGs that land those spots come from foreign schools that are the equivalent to our mid to upper tier MD schools from what I've seen. And they do numerous research years with the program on top of that.

 

[ChicagoBear]

For residency probably not but they have taken them for fellowship, although never say never.

Same with Iowa - went back and looked, 2 of the 16 current DR fellows are DOs. One did their residency at Kansas and the other at Beaumont MSU.

 

[sab3156]

Same with Iowa - went back and looked, 2 of the 16 current DR fellows are DOs. One did their residency at Kansas and the other at Beaumont MSU.

Fellowship is completely different than residency at, say, Iowa Rads or Ophtho, or Harvard/MEEI Ophtho. After ACGME residency, it becomes much easier to attain ACGME fellowship, even at Harvard.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Not trying to be negative, but I would not consider DR. You sit at a desk all day, have to hit RVU number every day , night and dayhawks competing, AI on the horizon. Imaging on the hit list of insurers. I dont think the future is particularly bright

 

[Neopolymath]

Not trying to be negative, but I would not consider DR. You sit at a desk all day, have to hit RVU number every day , night and dayhawks competing, AI on the horizon. Imaging on the hit list of insurers. I dont think the future is particularly bright

I would rather do 10 years of radiology or anesthesia and then quit medicine than step foot in most other specialties like IM/FM. I don't think it would be hard to find people to agree with me. I feel like I have seen you say this stuff about DR more than once and it flies in the face of what people in the field have told me.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I would rather do 10 years of radiology or anesthesia and then quit medicine than step foot in most other specialties like IM/FM. I don't think it would be hard to find people to agree with me. I feel like I have seen you say this stuff about DR more than once and it flies in the face of what people in the field have told me.

I have close relatives and dear friends in the field. Just relating my experience and opinions. Others will vary I'm sure.

 

[Cowboys05]

Not trying to be negative, but I would not consider DR. You sit at a desk all day, have to hit RVU number every day , night and dayhawks competing, AI on the horizon. Imaging on the hit list of insurers. I dont think the future is particularly bright

I’ve heard all of these. Honestly I can’t stand clinic. After 4 hours of clinic I feel like I need to go to bed, for some reason dealing with patients just drains my energy. I agree with neopolymath, I’d rather do 10 years of it and retire than 30 of FM/IM/etc. I’ve talked to a few radiologists, they don’t seem to think AI will be an issue for longer than 10 years, more like 30. And even then they believe it’ll just make their job easier, not replace them. There’s a lot of liability issues that would have to be figured out if AI misses something and there’s not a human radiologist around, who’s liable for that. Radiology does procedures that AI can’t do. Consults that AI can’t do. Plus, even if AI reaches the ability to replace radiology, it would take the government at least 10 years before it would be allowed to be implemented. These are just things I’ve been told by a few different radiology docs. If we are being honest, a feel like AI could replace family med way before radiology. All it would have to do is med management and simple diagnoses or referrals.

 

[Spectreman]

Drop cranial from the DO curriculum and actual institutions will stop crapping on high achieving DO students.

 

[Neopolymath]

I've never understood the "I hate clinic" argument for IM. The vast vast majority of IM residency is inpatient. If you find the speciality with absolutely nothing you dislike then you sir are a unicorn

That's an anti-FM argument. I could write a nice lengthy screed about why I have no desire to do IM, but the joke "eternal medicine" comes to mind as well as dispo, endless rounding, and arguing about things that don't affect treatment. That's just what I've observed over the years and had reinforced by family/friends.

 

[Cowboys05]

I've never understood the "I hate clinic" argument for IM. The vast vast majority of IM residency is inpatient. If you find the speciality with absolutely nothing you dislike then you sir are a unicorn

I dislike FM a lot more than IM. The point that dealing with patients drains my energy still stands for me and IM. I know this because I’ve done a rotation in IM and didn’t really enjoy it. I enjoyed the intellectual aspect of it, not the patient care. I feel like radiology offers an intellectual aspect to medicine without much direct patient contact. I’m sure I’ll find things about radiology I don’t love, but I expect that to happen with any field. Some moreso than others.

 

[Cowboys05]

Drop cranial from the DO curriculum and actual institutions will stop crapping on high achieving DO students.

Laughed at this one. Cranial is a joke and even all DO’s know it except the ones that teach it.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I’ve heard all of these. Honestly I can’t stand clinic. After 4 hours of clinic I feel like I need to go to bed, for some reason dealing with patients just drains my energy. I agree with neopolymath, I’d rather do 10 years of it and retire than 30 of FM/IM/etc. I’ve talked to a few radiologists, they don’t seem to think AI will be an issue for longer than 10 years, more like 30. And even then they believe it’ll just make their job easier, not replace them. There’s a lot of liability issues that would have to be figured out if AI misses something and there’s not a human radiologist around, who’s liable for that. Radiology does procedures that AI can’t do. Consults that AI can’t do. Plus, even if AI reaches the ability to replace radiology, it would take the government at least 10 years before it would be allowed to be implemented. These are just things I’ve been told by a few different radiology docs. If we are being honest, a feel like AI could replace family med way before radiology. All it would have to do is med management and simple diagnoses or referrals.

Nothing I said was inaccurate. I still dont think the future for DR is bright. Imaging is one of the greatest costs to insurers, reimbursement will drop considerably. Already imaging is being bundled into DRGs, and radiologist are fighting with other clinicians for their piece of the pie. I'm not trying to discourage you, just trying to inform. IF DR is where your heart is , God speed. Good luck and best wishes

 

[Black Coffee 24/7]

I dislike FM a lot more than IM. The point that dealing with patients drains my energy still stands for me and IM. I know this because I’ve done a rotation in IM and didn’t really enjoy it. I enjoyed the intellectual aspect of it, not the patient care. I feel like radiology offers an intellectual aspect to medicine without much direct patient contact. I’m sure I’ll find things about radiology I don’t love, but I expect that to happen with any field. Some moreso than others.

Maybe think about fields that limit each pt encounter to no more than 10 mins. I’m very similar, in which any outpatient encounter that lasts more than 10 mins would make me tired and sleepy.

I myself function better with complexity and less pt chatting time.

 

[sab3156]

Unknown to us maybe, but most of the FMGs that land those spots come from foreign schools that are the equivalent to our mid to upper tier MD schools from what I've seen. And they do numerous research years with the program on top of that.

Nah trust me it was random schools. I personally know them and worked with them. They got in through hardcore research connections, but the top dawgs there told me straight up that it wouldn't really be possible for a DO to match at the program.

 

[Spectreman]

Laughed at this one. Cranial is a joke and even all DO’s know it except the ones that teach it.

My brother is a plastic surgeon at Stantford, can confirm that cranial is the reason they call DOs quacks. They’ve taken IMGs on occasion, but they loath the DO pseudoscience.

 

[shadowlightfox]

AI on the horizon

Even then, I don't think that's seriously going to impact employment that much. I don't know how all these process works, but upon my first impression on how things work, wouldn't you still need physicians to sign off on whatever reports the AI churns out?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Even then, I don't think that's seriously going to impact employment that much. I don't know how all these process works, but upon my first impression on how things work, wouldn't you still need physicians to sign off on whatever reports the AI churns out?

You might be right. Moores Law says microchips double the transistor capacity every year. I read recently that Intel feels they can only maintain this pace for only about 5 more years. If you look at the advances over the last decade with AI, Watson, self driving cars, voice activated software,smartphones,wireless streaming etc., , it is not hard to imagine that AI will move into DR in some fashion. Most careers are 30-40 years in medicine, so things could be much different in 2 to 3 decades.
As far as physician signing off, it is happening already in DR. Since radiologists aren't in attendance during ultrasound procedures for DVT, etc., they pretty much just sign the USTechs report.
In the future, they may only have to pull random studies that AI has read and over read them. No one has a crystal ball. AI is only one factor I mentioned about DR. Add them all up and I still would be wary of a 30 yr career. But if that is where your heart is, go for it. Good luck and best wishes!

 

[Cowboys05]

My brother is a plastic surgeon at Stantford, can confirm that cranial is the reason they call DOs quacks. They’ve taken IMGs on occasion, but they loath the DO pseudoscience.

Haha can we make this well known that 99-100% of DO students consider cranial pseudoscience. Just because we were forced to sit in labs for it doesn’t mean I didn’t just sit there with someone’s head in my hands while I said this is all bull**** out loud.
Honestly I’m not even that fond of DO in general. I thought I would be going into medical school, that’s why I cancelled interview invites to a few MD schools after I got into KCOM. But shortly after OTM started I was done with it. I didn’t even study for the comlex. I studied all usmle materials, did well on the usmle, then took the comlex a week later without studying any comlex materials. Didn’t really care how I did on comlex.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Son, you're an osteopath with no research. You need to be aiming for "a university" not "top 25."

 

[Cowboys05]

Son, you're an osteopath with no research. You need to be aiming for "a university" not "top 25."

Touché. Was just trying to get a feel for what I’d be able to aim for, I did not expect to be able to aim for top 25. I’m not overly interested in doing research anyways so I probably wouldn’t enjoy any of those schools. Just trying to find programs that are well respected, focus on clinical training with minimal research or research not required, and that would take me as a DO with my stats.

 

[Kuratz]

I'm assuming you are the same student who posted on AM so just take this as a continuum of my original reply. It seems based on what I've heard from PDs and others that this year applying to DR is more competitive than last and many think next year (your cycle) will be the nadir. Based on charting outcomes for DO students the odds of you matching somewhere with your board scores are quite high. It'll be tougher next year than last and I still think you'll be fine but only if you apply broadly. It is a crap shoot for everyone. I genuinely think you can match to the list of programs I suggested, and even if you don't go to a name brand program there are plenty of fantastic community programs like Integris that'll prepare you for a job or residency. I think even if you were an allopathic student the top 25 may be tough simply for the reason that those institutions generally are looking for folks interested in research or an academic career, neither of which you have demonstrated interest in. Private practice and hospital jobs want a well trained radiologist and care very little on the prestige of your residency. I'm serious. You can get amazing training at mid-tier and even community programs so keep an open mind. Feel free to PM me here or on AM. Cheers

 

[ortnakas]

Graduates of my school matched DR at University of Minnesota, Tufts, and University of Florida - Jacksonville this past year, among others. I'm not in rads so I have no idea how competitive those matches are, but university diagnostic radiology isn't out of reach for a DO.

 

[deleted950463]

What about diagnostic rads for DOs at Columbia, Cornell and NYU? I searched through current residents of all those institution and not a single DO! Ridiculous bias.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

What about diagnostic rads for DOs at Columbia, Cornell and NYU? I searched through current residents of all those institution and not a single DO! Ridiculous bias.

Quite possibly. Many programs will give you the avg boards scores for their pgy 1 class, if you contact them. I believe these programs are research heavy, so to be considered you need to understand what a competetive candidate looks like for their program

 

[deleted950463]

Quite possibly. Many programs will give you the avg boards scores for their pgy 1 class, if you contact them. I believe these programs are research heavy, so to be considered you need to understand what a competetive candidate looks like for their program

So not a single DO for 4 years would have the research and step score to match in NYC academic radiology progeams!?

My senior told me that they know people from our school with step 1 in the 250s and research who didn’t even get an interview at NYU...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What about diagnostic rads for DOs at Columbia, Cornell and NYU? I searched through current residents of all those institution and not a single DO! Ridiculous bias.

So not a single DO for 4 years would have the research and step score to match in NYC academic radiology progeams!?

My senior told me that they know people from our school with step 1 in the 250s and research who didn’t even get an interview at NYU...

Lol where have you been? Your app is not created equal to a USMD's. This last cycle there was (actual true story coming) an integrated plastics applicant with a 270 and 15 publications. They got 3 interviews. Never for one second think that your app will be viewed the same as a DO.

 

[Cowboys05]

Lol where have you been? Your app is not created equal to a USMD's. This last cycle there was (actual true story coming) an integrated plastics applicant with a 270 and 15 publications. They got 3 interviews. Never for one second think that your app will be viewed the same as a DO.

Wow, 270 with 15 pubs and only 3 interviews. That’s a crazy good app

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Wow, 270 with 15 pubs and only 3 interviews. That’s a crazy good app

Yep, the kind of app where if they were a USMD then they would have their pick of almost any program in the country.

 

[Cowboys05]

Yep, the kind of app where if they were a USMD then they would have their pick of almost any program in the country.

No question. Got a friend from Mizzou that got over a 270. Not sure how much research but I know he has some. Going for IR/DR integrated. He’s probably going to have his pick of top programs.

 

[Lawpy]

Lol where have you been? Your app is not created equal to a USMD's. This last cycle there was (actual true story coming) an integrated plastics applicant with a 270 and 15 publications. They got 3 interviews. Never for one second think that your app will be viewed the same as a DO.

Yep, the kind of app where if they were a USMD then they would have their pick of almost any program in the country.

What about AOA and clinical grades? This probably adds to the bias but PDs probably view AOA to be a pretty big deal and may place higher weight into MD clinical grades than DO clinical grades. I don't know if the DO version of AOA has an impact on residency applications.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

What about AOA and clinical grades? This probably adds to the bias but PDs probably view AOA to be a pretty big deal and may place higher weight into MD clinical grades than DO clinical grades. I don't know if the DO version of AOA has an impact on residency applications.

We have SSP but it's not really the same, and PDs don't care. This applicant was supposedly a superstar across the board. It's just a fact, the letters matter. It isn't all doom and gloom as there are definitely great opportunities to be had as a DO applicant, don't get me wrong, but sometimes it stings that you can do everything right and most likely will still end up in the round filing cabinet simply because of your degree.

 

[sab3156]

What about diagnostic rads for DOs at Columbia, Cornell and NYU? I searched through current residents of all those institution and not a single DO! Ridiculous bias.

No kidding. Welcome to the real world, where pedigree matters. Why did you think the DO degree was considered to be equivalent to the MD degree for residency? I cannot understand how people start attending DO school without first learning these things. Your user name is "doctorsdatdo" (Doctors That DO), so I really can't say that I feel sorry for you, my friend. If your source of inspiration and knowledge was the AOA, I'm not at all surprised by your late realization of how the real world works.

Those programs will take the worst MD applicant over the best DO applicant any day, barring some ridiculous (and probably unattainable for a DO) connections within the department that basically forces them to rank the DO applicant.

Quite possibly. Many programs will give you the avg boards scores for their pgy 1 class, if you contact them. I believe these programs are research heavy, so to be considered you need to understand what a competetive candidate looks like for their program

Listen - people have said it before... you give terrible, terrible advice. Please just stop. Yeah, it's "possible" that you can win a bare knuckles fight to the death with a silverback gorilla - but really, is it? You're talking about programs that straight up do not consider DOs.

Lol where have you been? Your app is not created equal to a USMD's. This last cycle there was (actual true story coming) an integrated plastics applicant with a 270 and 15 publications. They got 3 interviews. Never for one second think that your app will be viewed the same as a DO.

Sounds about right.