3rd year DO looking at diagnostic radiology

[W19]

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Can he match DR at University of Rochester? I am trying to get a feel of how difficult things are for DO applicants...

 

[shadowlightfox]

Can he match DR at University of Rochester? I am trying to get a feel of how difficult things are for DO applicants...

Definitely through connections at least, yeah. I know someone from my school that matched IR through URoch. I don't know if without connections they're friendly to DOs, though, but they do have experience taking in DO students alright.

 

[deleted950463]

Definitely through connections at least, yeah. I know someone from my school that matched IR through URoch. I don't know if without connections they're friendly to DOs, though, but they do have experience taking in DO students alright.

IR is a life long dream of mine! I heard that only like 3 DOs in the country matched into the intergrated pathway or something.

Did that student have connection with U of R?

 

[shadowlightfox]

IR is a life long dream of mine! I heard that only like 3 DOs in the country matched into the intergrated pathway or something.

Did that student have connection with U of R?

Most likely. In fact, when you look at the NRMP, it was the only specialty where the people who matched had worse statistics than the ones who didn't match. I'm not just talking about step scores. This also includes number of research publications, etc. That pretty much screams connections.

This pretty much shows how powerful connections can be. In fact, the more competitive a specialty, the more it necessitates your people skills and how you need it to grab connections otherwise those specialties will most likely be reserved for MD applicants sadly.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Most likely. In fact, when you look at the NRMP, it was the only specialty where the people who matched had worse statistics than the ones who didn't match. I'm not just talking about step scores. This also includes number of research publications, etc. That pretty much screams connections.

Actually research was significantly higher in those that matched compared to those that didn't. Like 8 to 3 or something. However, IR was a complete blood bath last year and I wouldn't even consider it without significant connections lol.

 

[shadowlightfox]

Huh, guess I must've misread. Still, lower step score alone is enough to scream connections nonetheless.

 

[W19]

Definitely through connections at least, yeah. I know someone from my school that matched IR through URoch. I don't know if without connections they're friendly to DOs, though, but they do have experience taking in DO students alright.

That's good... I know there is bias against DO but I do not know to what extent those bias are. I went to a bottom 5 or 10 MD school and one of my classmates matched DR at Rochester with mid 220s step1.

I responded to a solid DO applicant on WAMC IM about IM at U of Arizona (Tucson) being a 'reach' or 'super reach' program due to his/her stats. That applicant has a mid 220s step1 and a 240s step2. I was kind of surprised that he thought UoAZ was a 'reach' program. I interviewed there with lower stats and they reached out to me post match to ask me why I did not rank them higher because they ranked me high enough to match. Are PD that shallow? because they want to put someone with MD in their website instead of DO.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

That's good... I know there is bias against DO but I do not know to what extent those bias are. I went to a bottom 5 or 10 MD school and one of my classmates matched DR at Rochester with mid 220s step1.

I responded to a solid DO applicant on WAMC IM about IM at U of Arizona (Tucson) being a 'reach' or 'super reach' program due to his/her stats. That applicant has a mid 220s step1 and a 240s step2. I was kind of surprised that he thought UoAZ was a 'reach' program. I interviewed there with ~220 on step1 and mid 220s step2 and they reached out to me post match to ask me why I did not rank them higher because they ranked me high enough to match. Are PD that shallow? because they want to put someone with MD in their website instead of DO.

Sometimes I do think that DO applicants can undershoot their competitiveness for stuff like that. I know that UA Tucson takes a decent number of DOs almost yearly, although I have no idea what their applications looked like.

 

[W19]

Sometimes I do think that DO applicants can undershoot their competitiveness for stuff like that. I know that UA Tucson takes a decent number of DOs almost yearly, although I have no idea what their applications looked like.

That might be the case... I know the new PD does not want to have a lot of IMG/FMG in the program, but there is no indication that she is anti DO.

By the way, UoAZ is good midtier program with in-house fellowships, so DO who are interested in doing GI/Card should look at program like UoAZ...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

That might be the case... I know the new PD does not want to have a lot of IMG/FMG in the program, but there is no indication that she is anti DO.

Looks like they have 10 DOs spread over the 3 years. What tier is UA-Tucson for IM? Low tier?

 

[Stagg737]

My brother is a plastic surgeon at Stanford, can confirm that cranial is the reason they call DOs quacks. They’ve taken IMGs on occasion, but they loath the DO pseudoscience.

Then you should tell him that over 90% of DOs will never use OMM after becoming practicing physicians, because that's a pretty crap reason to not accept DO applicants.

Not really.... the average USMLE for DO students as a whole is most likely lower than 220. Not including the outliers from either pool they likely are extremely similar.

Same could be said about scores of Caribbean students, and that's only the people who are even allowed to take it. Their first two years are basically a crash course for taking Step 1, and even then large percentages of their students take an extra semester (or even year) to study for Step 1. Or at least I've been told so by multiple college friends who went to Carib schools.

I think you are overestimating how many DOs are out there that have an app competitive enough for MGH IM and the ilk... yes there is bias buts let’s not pretend that 98% of DO applicants can even dream about MGH IM.

Neither are 95% of MD applicants either, as most of their residents would probably match into just about any program in any field they wanted if they had attempted it.

 

[W19]

Looks like they have 10 DOs spread over the 3 years. What tier is UA-Tucson for IM? Low tier?

I would call them a low midtier or upper low tier...

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I would call them a low midtier or upper low tier...

Interesting, I have no clue about IM programs but it seems they provide a good opportunity for fellowships even as a lowish tier program.

 

[W19]

Interesting, I have no clue about IM programs but it seems they provide a good opportunity for fellowships even as a lowish tier program.

I think they do provide good opportunity for fellowships... I think people are caught up in mega big city programs (myself included), hence they don't look at these programs closely.

 

[karling]

For what it's worth, I have a USMLE almost identical to yours and a COMLEX higher than yours. I've applied to over 100 programs. Received 2 interview invites so far, both from places I'm doing away rotations at. I know it's early in the cycle, but I was rotating with MD students with step 1 lower than mine (in the low to mid 230s) who already received 5+ invites.

The bias is real.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

For what it's worth, I have a USMLE almost identical to yours and a COMLEX higher than yours. I've applied to over 100 programs. Received 2 interview invites so far, both from places I'm doing away rotations at. I know it's early in the cycle, but I was rotating with MD students with step 1 lower than mine (in the low to mid 230s) who already received 5+ invites.

The bias is real.

What field?

 

[Cowboys05]

For what it's worth, I have a USMLE almost identical to yours and a COMLEX higher than yours. I've applied to over 100 programs. Received 2 interview invites so far, both from places I'm doing away rotations at. I know it's early in the cycle, but I was rotating with MD students with step 1 lower than mine (in the low to mid 230s) who already received 5+ invites.

The bias is real.

Wow. You’ll have to let me know how things turn out for you, I’d be interested in knowing since we have similar stats.


So I know Beaumont takes DO’s sometimes. Would my scores be good enough for consideration? Would doing an away there be a good idea? I’ve heard you don’t usually do much for DR aways, but at least they can get to know you.

 

[sab3156]

Wow. You’ll have to let me know how things turn out for you, I’d be interested in knowing since we have similar stats.

The other person may have research and letters from ACGME faculty, so it might be a very different application than yours.

 

[karling]

What field?

Radiology

Wow. You’ll have to let me know how things turn out for you, I’d be interested in knowing since we have similar stats.

I'm sure I'll be on here throughout the application cycle periodically, but feel free to send me a message. And in response to the above post, I have no research and one letter from ACGME rads faculty.

 

[Oh_Gee]

s

For what it's worth, I have a USMLE almost identical to yours and a COMLEX higher than yours. I've applied to over 100 programs. Received 2 interview invites so far, both from places I'm doing away rotations at. I know it's early in the cycle, but I was rotating with MD students with step 1 lower than mine (in the low to mid 230s) who already received 5+ invites.

The bias is real.

do you think doing aways is worth it then? probably too soon to tell but let us know where you end up 🙂

 

[Peach Newport]

Top programs want big dog research in the field. That’s why DOs don’t get in, far more so than because they’re DOs. They just by and large don’t have the research output to be meaningful contributors.

FMGs at top programs very often have serious research (and often board scores and clinical experience that put an AMG’s to shame) from their home countries - and can seriously contribute to the department’s research output in real, productive, non-bullsh*t ways. If you see a graduate from India, Pakistan, or Turkey in the Plastics roster at MGH, I guarantee you they put out like 20+ High-impact papers in their home country on a subject very similar to the PI’s. You know, something that proves themselves a useful contributor to the team.

I highly doubt you will see many Caribbean grads in top 25 programs in competitive fields. You’ll see more DOs.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I guarantee you they put out like 50+ High-impact papers in their home country

FTFY. These people are straight up studs. I looked up one of them up on Pubmed just for kicks and the dude had 100+ pubs.... and he was a resident.... meaning it was all from before. The FMGs who get these spots are literally some of the best and brightest in the world.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I’ve heard all of these. Honestly I can’t stand clinic. After 4 hours of clinic I feel like I need to go to bed, for some reason dealing with patients just drains my energy. I agree with neopolymath, I’d rather do 10 years of it and retire than 30 of FM/IM/etc. I’ve talked to a few radiologists, they don’t seem to think AI will be an issue for longer than 10 years, more like 30. And even then they believe it’ll just make their job easier, not replace them. There’s a lot of liability issues that would have to be figured out if AI misses something and there’s not a human radiologist around, who’s liable for that. Radiology does procedures that AI can’t do. Consults that AI can’t do. Plus, even if AI reaches the ability to replace radiology, it would take the government at least 10 years before it would be allowed to be implemented. These are just things I’ve been told by a few different radiology docs. If we are being honest, a feel like AI could replace family med way before radiology. All it would have to do is med management and simple diagnoses or referrals.

Fat chance, that machine would blue screen itself after the first 20 drug seekers trying to lie thier way into inappropriate therapy.

 

[sab3156]

Top programs want big dog research in the field. That’s why DOs don’t get in, far more so than because they’re DOs. They just by and large don’t have the research output to be meaningful contributors.

The overwhelming majority of "top programs" in fields like radiology will simply not even sniff the DO applicants, barring connections. You can have all the research in the world. DOs cannot publish their way into MGH/UPenn/Hopkins radiology.

Fat chance, that machine would blue screen itself after the first 20 drug seekers trying to lie thier way into inappropriate therapy.

Plus, how are you going to have a computer feel and document the CRANIAL RHYTHMIC IMPULSE? Only a human can lie. Unless you code a dishonest computer program.

 

[deleted600623]

Does going to a top tier residency program affect your job opportunities after? Say one goes to a low-mid tier Rads program. Does this affect what job opportunities they can get outside of an academic position? Like just a typical radiologist position at a community hospital?

 

[deleted950463]

Does going to a top tier residency program affect your job opportunities after? Say one goes to a low-mid tier Rads program. Does this affect what job opportunities they can get outside of an academic position? Like just a typical radiologist position at a community hospital?

It does. If you go to auntminnie, you’ll learn about jobs that mainly recruit from certain residencies/fellowships. Google IRs in the San Francisco bay area. Most of them went to UCSF.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Everyone always gives a top tier candidate a good first and sometimes a second look. Having said that, hospital systems and university systems are now quite focused on productivity and patient throughput. Board certification and subspecialty skills are the primary factors making a candidate attractive to a group, IMO. Womens imaging, MSK, IR, chest and body imaging, etc.. Secondly, being able to handle the large volume caseload is the next most important factor. Lastly, location is important, some docs and their families dont want a rural location, some dont want urban. It's all about the fit. Groups want competent productive applicants. You can become this person at many residency programs.

 

[deleted600623]

It does. If you go to auntminnie, you’ll learn about jobs that mainly recruit from certain residencies/fellowships. Google IRs in the San Francisco bay area. Most of them went to UCSF.

What about more rural hospitals? Not looking to live in the huge cities.

 

[Peach Newport]

The overwhelming majority of "top programs" in fields like radiology will simply not even sniff the DO applicants, barring connections. You can have all the research in the world. DOs cannot publish their way into MGH/UPenn/Hopkins radiology.

Your years of experience with PDs top 25 rads programs tell you that?

 

[sab3156]

Your years of experience with PDs top 25 rads programs tell you that?

No, but my friends in Boston who graduated from Hopkins radiology and MGH radiology who are attendings now tell me that. They took part in resident selection and know PDs/faculty in other top programs. Sure beats imagination.

 

[libertyyne]

IR is a life long dream of mine! I heard that only like 3 DOs in the country matched into the intergrated pathway or something.

Did that student have connection with U of R?

you have a lot of work ahead of you. Only 58% of MD applicants matched in IR and 15% of the DO applicants.

 

[Rekt]

For what it's worth, I have a USMLE almost identical to yours and a COMLEX higher than yours. I've applied to over 100 programs. Received 2 interview invites so far, both from places I'm doing away rotations at. I know it's early in the cycle, but I was rotating with MD students with step 1 lower than mine (in the low to mid 230s) who already received 5+ invites.

The bias is real.

How you doing now? I'm not applying rads, but my friends are, just curious.

 

[karling]

IR is a life long dream of mine! I heard that only like 3 DOs in the country matched into the intergrated pathway or something.

Did that student have connection with U of R?

I go to the same school, and my understanding is that guy basically went to every IR conference he could right from the start of medical school. I've never met him (he's 2 years ahead of me), but I've heard he's also really personable and likable. I don't even think his scores were great, he just met a ton of people in the field over 3ish years of making connections and charmed them. It got him a spot.

How you doing now? I'm not applying rads, but my friends are, just curious.

I'm doing fine now. 13 rads invites. It was a slow start, but thankfully this week they started coming in.