70000/year-UPenn.. is it worth it??

[Balki]

I just wanted to add that IT matters where you go to school period!
When I was deciding on undergrad , i didn't choose it because it was the cheapest but i chose because of the experience, environment and academic cirruculum. Yes I took the same orgo class that other students but our expereinces were not even close! I know this for the fact because I have constantly copared with my friends at other colleges.
The same thing will be true for Dental School. I am pretty sure we all are going to learn the same basic skills but the educational expereince is going to be different. Is it worth it? well that's up to you to decide, what do you value in your education and what is important for you.
For me it was also the process its self , besides the goal.

I'll add to this post when I finish my first year, and will compare my expereinces with my friends attendin other schools.
I am going to COlumbia, another high price school, but i chose it over UCONN.

Thanks for reading.

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[JRogoff]

Sorry for the Double post, internet glitch.

 

[JRogoff]

People seem to miss the fact that Penn has good specialization rates because they accept higher caliber students than most schools. The fact that specialization rates are high at Penn has nothing to do with the name and everything to do with the fact that they select students that are extremely hard workers and have proven themselves so in undergrad. The main point here is that the name will not get you into the specialty of your choice; this is what your GPA and board scores are for. If you have 90+ part one boards and 3.5+ GPA, you will have an equal shot at ortho and OMS coming from your state school or Penn. Just my 2 abes

 

[Slain]

i mean really $70000 a year to go to UPenn is it really worth it. I'm someone that will be taking loans. As i calculated there is a $150000 difference between going to my state school or going to Upenn. Is it really worth it to go there and have all these loans... some feedback plz
ohhh btw here is where it says 70000 if u dont believe me: http://www.dental.upenn.edu/academic/DMDprogram/dmd-tuition.html rogram/dmd-tuition.html

no

 

[JayMiranti]

I just wanted to add that IT matters where you go to school period!
When I was deciding on undergrad , i didn't choose it because it was the cheapest but i chose because of the experience, environment and academic cirruculum. Yes I took the same orgo class that other students but our expereinces were not even close! I know this for the fact because I have constantly copared with my friends at other colleges.
The same thing will be true for Dental School. I am pretty sure we all are going to learn the same basic skills but the educational expereince is going to be different. Is it worth it? well that's up to you to decide, what do you value in your education and what is important for you.
For me it was also the process its self , besides the goal.

I'll add to this post when I finish my first year, and will compare my expereinces with my friends attendin other schools.
I am going to COlumbia, another high price school, but i chose it over UCONN.

Thanks for reading.

i agree 100% i am in the same boat i am from ct and this year im not applying to uconn, columbia is my #1.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Actually UCLA and UCSF are much more prestigious than columbia, IMHO.

That may very well be true, I'm too out of the "prestige loop" to know the difference these days (brain cells fried due to Board studying).

But what I do know is that prestige really gets you nowhere in our profession.

 

[ItsGavinC]

The main point here is that the name will not get you into the specialty of your choice; this is what your GPA and board scores are for. If you have 90+ part one boards and 3.5+ GPA, you will have an equal shot at ortho and OMS coming from your state school or Penn. Just my 2 abes

J, you make an excellent point (sorry you won't be down here next year, BTW). However, just for the purposes of being anal, a 3.5 GPA may not play into specialization. What DOES count is your class rank. If a 3.5 puts you in the middle of the pack, then it isn't much good on the application.

 

[JRogoff]

What DOES count is your class rank.

You are absolutely right Gavin. I should have said GPA/Class Rank. I'm glad you agree, too many people in here are obsessed over this Ivy crap. Oh well, if snooty attitudes and turned up collars is what you're into then so be it.

 

[Dentin068]

Well UPenn has a damn good name. Regardless of what people say, public perception goes along way when choosing a school. Its up to you. Do you wanna pay extra for the name. Some people like myself think it would be worth it. That is why I am so glad that Im attending NYU in the Fall.

______________
NYU College of Dentistry 2008

 

[Balki]

You are absolutely right Gavin. I should have said GPA/Class Rank. I'm glad you agree, too many people in here are obsessed over this Ivy crap. Oh well, if snooty attitudes and turned up collars is what you're into then so be it.

Notice I have not mentioned my reason being simply the prestige or the school being Ivy Ligue. I think I just developed this negative attitude with state/ public schools when you end being just a number and nothing else. By the way when I went on interviews to Ivy leagues very rarely they mentioned/sayed they were good. In fact UCONN bragged more than any school. I just found the environment much more motivating in private schools than in public ones. While I have not personally visited UPENN , I did visit Stonybrook and Uconn I got a completely different feeling from the state schools.
I am pretty sure I might not be right on all the issues, it's just my oppinion.

Thanks

 

[aphistis]

Well UPenn has a damn good name. Regardless of what people say, public perception goes along way when choosing a school. Its up to you. Do you wanna pay extra for the name. Some people like myself think it would be worth it. That is why I am so glad that Im attending NYU in the Fall.

______________
NYU College of Dentistry 2008

If you're paying out the nose to attend NYU because you think it's highly regarded in the dental community...well, you may have something else coming when you start this summer. 😉

 

[ItsGavinC]

If you're paying out the nose to attend NYU because you think it's highly regarded in the dental community...well, you may have something else coming when you start this summer. 😉

I won't even throw a " 😉 " in to soften my post. You WILL have another thing coming if that is your reasoning (and I'm not saying it is, although your post alluded to that).

 

[DesiDentist]

People seem to miss the fact that Penn has good specialization rates because they accept higher caliber students than most schools. The fact that specialization rates are high at Penn has nothing to do with the name and everything to do with the fact that they select students that are extremely hard workers and have proven themselves so in undergrad. The main point here is that the name will not get you into the specialty of your choice; this is what your GPA and board scores are for. If you have 90+ part one boards and 3.5+ GPA, you will have an equal shot at ortho and OMS coming from your state school or Penn. Just my 2 abes

I agree 100%. If you want it you can get it anywhere you go. Regardless, I do NOT want to specialize, however I believe that PENN will adequately prepare me for GP.

The first year is almost done and most other schools just emphasize on the basic sciences, but we have been banged hard into the restorative area already.

The second day of school we were introduced to Dent Sim, trust me, I'm not a huge fan of it but it has taught all of us proper seating, and hand positioning. The 2 pound drill has made drilling so easy in restorative.
In dent sim we drilled Class I, II, III, IV, and V teeth. Then filled them and worked on them in restorative lab: we did amalgams, class I, class II, and complex amalgam with pins and other restorative materials like glass ionomer.

Then our unit was negative carving for bridges.

AFter that we started the Gold unit with inlays, onlays and gold casting.

We just finished with composites, filling all classes of composites, posterior and anterior teeth using flow, hybrid and microfil composites.

Along with that we were taking a perio course, and here we learned the basics of perio, and now we are required to find one patient and do a perio probe chart, calculus detection and removal, scaling, and prophylaxis.

I know other schools, state schools in fact that haven't even done class two preparations yet by the end of their first year.

DesiDentist

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

I bet Arizona and Indiana don't have a third to offer what they have going here. I do not understand what is wrong with people on this site. They try to trash a school they know nothing about. This new dean has changed so much here it is unreal and there are some brilliant minds at work. Below I listed just a few things going on here since last summer...only one year worth of info. You show me what Arizona and Indiana are doing.

-NYUCD receives $2 million in NIH funding for osteoporosis research

-Phase I drug study to treat rare dermatological disorders

-NYUCD participates in federally funded breast cancer research project

-Federally funded nantechnology development research

-NYUCD receives $120,000 grant for composite restoration study

-$5.9 Million Awarded to NYUCD to Develop a Design Prototype to Extend the Life of Ceramic Crowns

-NYUCD Awarded $1 Million?Plus Grant to Identify Genetic Markers in Cariogenic Bacteria

-NHLBI Awards $663,250 Grant to NYUCD to Bioengineer Heart Muscle

-$400,000 HRSA Award to Expand the Number of Pediatric Dentistry Residents

-$1 Million Gift From Dr.Jonathan and Maxine Ferencz Establishes the Jonathan and Maxine Ferencz Advanced Education Program in Prosthodontics

-NYUCD Awarded $488,000 to Improve Head and Neck Cancer Treatments and Reduce Side Effects

-Support From Senator Clinton Brings NYUCD $250,000 in Federal Funds for Facilities Renovation

 

[Bickle]

Looks like NYU just got bitch smacked again on SDN. 😱

In all honesty, the reason I didnt go to my NYU interview was because of SDN. In retrospect, I wish I would have gone.

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

Another nice little link for really ALL the stuff going on here:

http://www.nyu.edu/dental/research/faculty/index.html

 

[aphistis]

Broc, I'm not going to get in a pissing contest here. You have your opinion, and other people (including Gavin & myself) have theirs. Nobody begrudges you yours, and we'd appreciate the same courtesy in return.

 

[NC2PA]

Honestly, It seems like this question comes up every other month on SDN, and it always ends up in a circular argument about which school is better.

Since dental schools aren't ranked anymore, it just boils down to each individual's perception of the school. If someone feels confident in attending a particular school, then so be it.

Does it really matter to argue over which school has this and that? When you graduate with a DDS/DMD degree, it's because you've been deemed competent to practice as a clinician.

and YES I agree that $70K/yr is a heck of a lot of money, but I don't feel like I'd get the same experience at a different school because I chose the school i felt the most comfortable at. and because I made the best decision for myself, I am relatively happy with my dent school experience. Frankly, I haven't met any poor dentists in my life, and I haven't met any poor Penn alumni. So i guess whatever they're doing is working just fine.

so go ahead and say that I'd do this and that with the extra $150K, etc. but there's no reason to be derogatory or condescending about it because we're all in the same boat right now. and we're all going to end up as dentists.

SDNers just get so worked up about things. There's way too much Type A in the house.

 

[DesiDentist]

so go ahead and say that I'd do this and that with the extra $150K, etc. but there's no reason to be derogatory or condescending about it because we're all in the same boat right now. and we're all going to end up as dentists.

right on. RAther than comparing prices why not see how other schools are handling their curriculum. We all might learn from each other. So many new developments out there.

DesiDentist

 

[3rdMolarRoller]

Broc, I'm not going to get in a pissing contest here. You have your opinion, and other people (including Gavin & myself) have theirs. Nobody begrudges you yours, and we'd appreciate the same courtesy in return.

Listen, I do not want a ?pissing contest?, but you and Gavin post some pretty damn arrogant stuff sometimes. If this is your opinion, then give us some facts to back your opinion or don?t waste our time in posting because then we have to read this crap you put up. As you can see, your fact less opinions do sway the minds of some people. The only reason I stick around on this site is to put in facts, as I did, to counter some stupid opinions like yours.

You are the one always talking about professionalism so act like it. You have no clue what goes on here. All you know is what some trolls come around and post on here about NYU.

SDN is a place where people come looking for help and facts and in my opinion its going to the $hit tubes?too many damn opinion on here. Not just about NYU, but many other things. If you look back at the majority of my posts, I do not usually post frivolous stuff such as ?Indiana school of dentistry has a low level of education because they cannot even offer sim-labs to students? And I could go off and post my opinions on Arizona, which are not favorable from what I heard from dentist that I work with. Am I going to post it, no because there is no point to knock another school. You want to go there, fine go there. And Gavin, quit acting like you go to the god of all dental schools.

I do not stoop to that level, so take the advice of the previous poster and just cheer that one-day we will be colleagues.

The End

Yours truly,

Brocnizer

 

[edkNARF]

We are starting to get a little abrasive with each other. I suggest that we have satisfied the original purpose of this thread and consider it honorarily "closed." The purpose of SDN is for everyone to benefit from the experience and knowledge of others, name make negative comments about other schools. Amen.

 

[gryffindor]

Well UPenn has a damn good name. Regardless of what people say, public perception goes along way when choosing a school. Its up to you. Do you wanna pay extra for the name. Some people like myself think it would be worth it. That is why I am so glad that Im attending NYU in the Fall.

______________
NYU College of Dentistry 2008

Anyone have a phone book from Boston? I wonder how many advertise themselves as "Harvard trained" dentists?

Heck, when I get to NYC in three weeks, I'll check myself to see how many there advertise as "Columbia trained" or "NYU trained" dentists.

When a patient walks into the dental office, they want someone who will get them out of pain. When you get them out of pain, you'll be a hero in their eyes, they're going to think you are the best dentist in the world and tell their friends. Word of mouth referrals, the best kind out there.

 

[JayMiranti]

ANd no one thinks that there is any correlation between rank of dental school attended, and ability to take away pain/word of mouth referals?

 

[aphistis]

ANd no one thinks that there is any correlation between rank of dental school attended, and ability to take away pain/word of mouth referals?

You shouldn't be asking whether people THINK there is, you should be asking whether there IS a correlation. 😉

 

[honestpredent]

Finally Like another poster said it really depends on what you want to do witih your degree, I want to specialize, and Penn has some of the highest specialization rates in the country. Another poster stated that only the OMS stats were impressive, Id have tto disagree, the OMS stats are, and so are the ortho stats (which is what I want to do), I dont know about the rest. But I dont see any other or at least very few schools besides schools like Harvard, USC and Columbia getting 15 people in ortho and 12 in OMS. True more people are applying, but they also have a better shot, becuase they have higher board scores and people know the caliber of Penn students with so many getting in. My state school had 5 out of 10 get in the year I decided on Penn we had 15 out of 18, If I am in any of those extra ten, then the $150,000 will be made uo in pretty much one year.

I think this is one of the biggest myths about dental school and I'm starting at Columbia next year. I chose Columbia because I liked it better than some of the other schools I got into. I didn't get into my state school because my GPA is on the low end despite having a high DAT. I'm going to try my best but I'm also realistic that getting a top ranking at Columbia is going to be difficult if not not impossible. The level of competition is much higher at Columbia than at my state school.

If you want to specialize, I think it actually hurts you to attend an Ivy league school not named Harvard because of the increased competition. Yes, 18 people may have matched ortho at Penn, but any those 18 could have probably finished in the top 5% at any other dental school. That's the type of competition you face at these Ivy league dental schools. I'm sure some student though he had an edge when going to Penn or Columbia and was disappointed when he or she ranked in the bottom half of the class knowing they could have been ranked much higher had they gone to a less competitive school. Also, like others have mentioned, it was probably their board scores that enabled to them to successfully match. How do you know that the 10 applicants in your state school had the same board scores? Penn students are good students to begin with so I think their own abilities as opposed to their school name helped them. I think if you had 18 people with top board scores from a state school, many of them would match into ortho as well.

It's sad to say but the name of your dental schools means nada. People who attend these schools will obviously feel the need to justify their choice by implying their ability to specialize is greater but it's not true. Columbia and Penn dental is not the same as Columbia and Penn Business or Law. I think Harvard and UCLA are the exceptions when it comes to school name but outside those two, class rank is what counts.

My advice is if you want to specialize, go to your state school where the competition will be less. Class rank by far outweighs school name in the matching process. And even at your state school, you are going to deal with tough competition but it won't be anything compared to what you will deal with at Columbia or Penn.

 

[drPheta]

Wanna specialize? Go to where you'll enjoy dental school. If you hate where you are, you just made it harder to do well in school.

So, again. Is Penn worth the extra $150,000 based on prestige/name alone? NO.

Would it be worth the $150,000 if we put other factors into the equation? Yes and No. It depends on what the hell the applicant wants. To say in this second scenario that it is or isn't worth it is frivolous and a moot point, because this post is about the OPs question, not everyone's penis size.

At this point, I wish I were a mod. Then, I'd close this thread. The OPs question has been honestly answered, and we've gotten waaaaaaaaaaaayyyy off track with all this bickering.

 

[honestpredent]

Notice I have not mentioned my reason being simply the prestige or the school being Ivy Ligue. I think I just developed this negative attitude with state/ public schools when you end being just a number and nothing else. By the way when I went on interviews to Ivy leagues very rarely they mentioned/sayed they were good. In fact UCONN bragged more than any school. I just found the environment much more motivating in private schools than in public ones. While I have not personally visited UPENN , I did visit Stonybrook and Uconn I got a completely different feeling from the state schools.
I am pretty sure I might not be right on all the issues, it's just my oppinion.

Thanks

This is why I'm attending Columbia. I'm not attending Columbia because I feel I will have a better opportunity to specialize or advance my career in any way. I love the environment of Columbia. The administration seems very supportive. Some of the other dental schools I had I gotten into had administrations that seemed to try and cut corners at every opportunity. That didn't seem to be the case at Columbia. You get what you pay for. And I don't get the feeling that I'm just another number there. The professors treat you like a colleague as opposed to a glorified undergrad like at many other dental schools. But, I don't think that I will have a distinct advantage at specializing simply because I will be a Columbia student which is where I agree with the others on this board. I liked the school but I could care less for the name. In my opinion, Harvard and perhaps UCLA are the only dental schools in which their name can help even the low ranked students in their class.

 

[gryffindor]

ANd no one thinks that there is any correlation between rank of dental school attended, and ability to take away pain/word of mouth referals?

As Bill said, the question should be "Is there any correlation..."

No, there is no correlation. Every dental school teaches you how to get patients out of pain, state schools and private schools. The ADA/CODA sets forth the basics you are supposed to learn in dental school regardless of where you go. If your school offers extra (like NYU has the Invisalign course), great. If not, take CE. Heck, even at my school, all the classes below me learned an extra skill, Rotary Endodontics, a skill my classmates & I will now have to acquire either through our residencies or CE courses. If you don't believe me, go read Dentaltown.com.

I have friends that got average/barely passing scores on their Part I or Part II boards, but are superb clinicians and will be excellent dentists. These people have fantastic preps and esthetically beautiful restorations, and can make a patient feel at great ease when the patient is in the chair. Book learning is important when you judge a school by its board scores, but there is a lot more to being a good dentist/practitioner that your ability to score well on a couple of multiple-choice board exams.

Sorry drPheta, to keep on perpetuating this thread, but the OP seems to have disappeared from the discussion.

 

[aileen]

I'm not trying to generalize, the following is my own experience.

Not all patients visit their dentists because they have bad toothache. Many patients go see their dentists for other reasons; almost 70% of the patients who visit the dental office I work at (for 2 years now full-time, 45 hours a week) come to visit the dentist because they want to improve their smile esthetically or to get regular check-ups. So they won't appreciate their dentists just because s/he got rid of their pain.

This means that patients can afford and will spend their time to look for the very best, let it be the reference from friends or advertisement. There's at least one dental office in every block of New York City, and the competition is fierce. I know my boss advertises himself as a "Ivyleague trained" dentist, and his dentist friends do the same thing to stay competitive.

Also, some patients ask ME, the assistant, where my boss went to study dentistry and how long s/he's been practicing. For some reason many patients do not want to ask the dentist directly. So it shows that some patients do care where their dentists went to school.

I'm not trying to say that going to UPENN is definitely worth extra $$$. I'm just trying to tell you guys what I experienced so you can take that into consideration when you make important decisions of your lives.

 

[JayMiranti]

NO correlation!? NO correlation between the educational program and the end resulting skills? Sure there are standards, every law school has standards to meet, but there are good and not-so-good lawers, as there are good and not-so-good dentists.. and these qualities have NOTHING to do with educational background? Nothing!? I mean come on. Sure on many levels the school you go to is superficial, but lets be real.

 

[larrywalkerdds]

Working as a former human resources manager, employees would ask me who everyone in the company likes? I have even been asked which is the hottest looking male and female doctors/dentists. I have been asked which ones have the nices staffs or who keep their appointments without having to wait long. I have been asked which dentists have nice offices or which offices are located in a nice section of the city. I have been asked which doctor or dentist seems the least stressed and is nice to patients etc. But not once has an employee out of the 500 that I managed asked me where a particular doctor or dentist went to school. Now, that's just my experience. I'm not going to contradict what others have said but take it for what it's worth. Maybe it's different in NYC where there is a dentist on every corner but I think many of us can safely say that they don't plan on practicing in an environment that represents that.

The funniest thing is that the most successfull dentist in our city (he has been on ABC's Extreme Makeover) is not known for his dental skills or his school but rather his marketing. Local dentists make fun of him all the time and say he is very salesy but admit he grosses nearly 300K per month. If you want to be the most successfull dentist you can be, try working on your marketing and presentation skills. That means a lot more than the name of your school.

 

[aphistis]

NO correlation!? NO correlation between the educational program and the end resulting skills? Sure there are standards, every law school has standards to meet, but there are good and not-so-good lawers, as there are good and not-so-good dentists.. and these qualities have NOTHING to do with educational background? Nothing!? I mean come on. Sure on many levels the school you go to is superficial, but lets be real.

It sounds like you've already made up your mind, and aren't about to let anyone else get in your way. That's obviously your prerogative. Best of luck.

 

[DesiDentist]

If you want to be the most successfull dentist you can be, try working on your marketing and presentation skills. That means a lot more than the name of your school.

I 100% agree. People skills, management skills, and Personality are the critical ingredients that no school can or will teach you. There are several students I have observed who are just "average" as grades go, but w/ patients they know how to treat them, and make them feel comfortable. Once you gained a patients trust, you have won 80% of the battle. Then, there are students who are Honor students, who believe that the way to dealing with a patient is not in laymans terms but what they learned in school. The patient never realizes what is going on and is very agitated.

So, technically it is not about the school, nor your grades. Its about how you perceive this porfession and treat patients.

DesiDentist

 

[gryffindor]

NO correlation!? NO correlation between the educational program and the end resulting skills? Sure there are standards, every law school has standards to meet, but there are good and not-so-good lawers, as there are good and not-so-good dentists.. and these qualities have NOTHING to do with educational background? Nothing!? I mean come on. Sure on many levels the school you go to is superficial, but lets be real.

You know that whole "I like to work with my hands" cliche you all pull during interviews? Well, it actually has some truth to it. School A (high board scores) can give you the awesome educational background with dazzling lectures on root canal therapy by some of the best endodontists out there. School A also requires you to complete 1 molar root canal on a live patient prior to graduation. School B (average board scores) also teaches root canal therapy, although the lectures aren't given by the world-famous endodontist (but they use his book). School B requires 10 molar root canals on a live patient prior to graduation.

You need a molar root canal: who do you go to? The one with all the educational background that can write you a great essay on how to do a root canal, or the one with the greater experience in doing it? Or do you go to the one who makes you feel comfortable in the chair, regardless of his experience or background?

But the thing with dentistry is that the student from School A who has only done 1 root canal isn't a bad dentist b/c of his lack of experience. He can do a residency, take lots of CE, or associate with a dentist who will show him the ropes to get some practice and be able to "catch up" to the School B graduate in no time if he is really determined to get good at root canals.

The majority of subjects in dentistry are things that need to be mastered with "hands on" experience. Like giving local anesthesia (the shot to numb the patient prior to a procedure). The student who memorizes all the science behind the chemicals in the anesthesia will get an A in the course, but that doesn't mean he can successfully administer the shot in a patient's mouth. That comes with practice. No school out there can guarantee that you will be numbing your patients up from the very first time you pick up a needle; no matter who you are or where you go to dental school, you will only get good at getting your patient numb after you've practiced it many, many, many times.

All dental schools will give you the educational background you need. Dentistry isn't like law, you can't keep trying to compare the two. But you don't seem to want to believe it, suit yourself.

 

[scandalouslj]

All dental schools will give you the educational background you need. Dentistry isn't like law, you can't keep trying to compare the two. But you don't seem to want to believe it, suit yourself.

Id have to disagree, everyone keeps saying this but does it really hold true? Why is it that in almost every other feild it depends on what school you went to, but in dentistry it doesnt? I mean isnt that the reason schools have different curriculums in dental school, business school, med school? Yeah we will be treating all different types of patients, and practice helps, but kids in Law school will also be trying all types of cases. Can I say which school is better, no way, none of us can compare becuase none of us really know the difference, unless we go to both schools. So weigh the pluses and minuses that you feel are relavant and pick, every one of these treads ends up being the same people trying to dispell the specialization rate myth, the truth, none of us know. Id just like to be on the better odds sidem if it is true great, if not then I am on a lvel playing field with everyone else, maybe thats why Penn only ranks the top 10, not even the top 10%. Either way Id have to disagree that it doesnt matter which school you go to, it just doesnt make sense, why would it matter in every other profession, including Medical schools? It might not matter for Specialization, or for where you are getting a job, but it does matter how much you are learning and what you are learning. FOr exampls Harvard's/Indiana's/USC PBL learning versus Penn's more half didatic/Half clinical vs Temples pretty much all Clincal.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

I think this is one of the biggest myths about dental school and I'm starting at Columbia next year. I chose Columbia because I liked it better than some of the other schools I got into. I didn't get into my state school because my GPA is on the low end despite having a high DAT. I'm going to try my best but I'm also realistic that getting a top ranking at Columbia is going to be difficult if not not impossible. The level of competition is much higher at Columbia than at my state school.

If you want to specialize, I think it actually hurts you to attend an Ivy league school not named Harvard because of the increased competition. Yes, 18 people may have matched ortho at Penn, but any those 18 could have probably finished in the top 5% at any other dental school. That's the type of competition you face at these Ivy league dental schools. I'm sure some student though he had an edge when going to Penn or Columbia and was disappointed when he or she ranked in the bottom half of the class knowing they could have been ranked much higher had they gone to a less competitive school. Also, like others have mentioned, it was probably their board scores that enabled to them to successfully match. How do you know that the 10 applicants in your state school had the same board scores? Penn students are good students to begin with so I think their own abilities as opposed to their school name helped them. I think if you had 18 people with top board scores from a state school, many of them would match into ortho as well.

It's sad to say but the name of your dental schools means nada. People who attend these schools will obviously feel the need to justify their choice by implying their ability to specialize is greater but it's not true. Columbia and Penn dental is not the same as Columbia and Penn Business or Law. I think Harvard and UCLA are the exceptions when it comes to school name but outside those two, class rank is what counts.

My advice is if you want to specialize, go to your state school where the competition will be less. Class rank by far outweighs school name in the matching process. And even at your state school, you are going to deal with tough competition but it won't be anything compared to what you will deal with at Columbia or Penn.

This is one the best posts I have seen on SDN......and from a Columbian?? 😱 Good Job.....perhaps you should teach your fellow future Columbia classmates the same logic. 👍

 

[marshall]

Has anyone given any credence to people that intend OMFS as their specialty and the effect of the school name? Everyone argues that medical school name does matter and in this thread some people have pointed out the high OMFS placement of Penn SDM students. In general, if the fellow MDs you are working with in residency and in life place weight on the name but you didn't go to traditional medical school I think they might place some weight on the dental school you went to, especially if there is a medical school there. In that case, Penn could be really good because it is the #4 ranked medical school. Food for thought.

Cheers,
Marshall

 

[gryffindor]

Id have to disagree, everyone keeps saying this but does it really hold true? Why is it that in almost every other feild it depends on what school you went to, but in dentistry it doesnt? I mean isnt that the reason schools have different curriculums in dental school, business school, med school? Yeah we will be treating all different types of patients, and practice helps, but kids in Law school will also be trying all types of cases. Can I say which school is better, no way, none of us can compare becuase none of us really know the difference, unless we go to both schools. So weigh the pluses and minuses that you feel are relavant and pick, every one of these treads ends up being the same people trying to dispell the specialization rate myth, the truth, none of us know. Id just like to be on the better odds sidem if it is true great, if not then I am on a lvel playing field with everyone else, maybe thats why Penn only ranks the top 10, not even the top 10%. Either way Id have to disagree that it doesnt matter which school you go to, it just doesnt make sense, why would it matter in every other profession, including Medical schools? It might not matter for Specialization, or for where you are getting a job, but it does matter how much you are learning and what you are learning. FOr exampls Harvard's/Indiana's/USC PBL learning versus Penn's more half didatic/Half clinical vs Temples pretty much all Clincal.

In dentistry there is only 1, maybe 2 owner dentists doing the hiring for an associateship position in a private practice. Not like law where there might be a whole team of lawyers or even an entire department set up just to sift through resumes and pick out the law school pedigrees.

Read larryphrank's post earlier on this page. Ask Dr. Jeff, or go post this question on DentalTown. They've said it many times - patient's almost never ask where the dentist went to school. That's why I'm sticking to my opinion that it doesn't matter where you went - I'm more apt to believe practicing dentists over pre-dents who have yet to hit the clinics.

What matters most in dental school learning is your background in your dental courses and the clinical experiences you are lucky enough to walk away with. Minutia pounded into your head in classes like Histo & Physio are only important for the Part I boards (and USMLE I if you do the MD/Oral Surgery). In the big picture of clinical dentistry & a dental career, it won't matter if you remember what a goblet cell looks like. I just tossed (recycled) 95% of my basic science notes after graduation b/c I forgot all of it during third and fourth years and I am never going to need that info in such great detail again. Seriously, I flipped through my biochem notes and was horrified that I had once known all that stuff inside and out and three years later, I couldn't recall any of it. If in the off chance I need to know some biochemical pathway, I'll buy myself a review book and relearn it.

But what do I know? I'm a new graduate and maybe I'm in for a hell of a shock when I go to NYC to get a job, and my Buffalo degree doesn't hold up in a sea of NYU/Columbia/UMDNJ/Penn/Stonybrook/Temple down there. Maybe name does matter, but seeing as my classmate UBTom got himself several job leads in the NYC area, I'm thinking it won't be such a big issue.

 

[elias514]

Somebody commented earlier that everyone knows that med school name is important. Since I start medical school in the fall, I thought I'd chime in on this subject, in part because I've been researching the role of prestige as a determinant of professional success--be it private practice options or academia.

Actually, there isn't any broad consensus among pre-meds, medical students, and medical graduates that institutional reputation has any real bearing on professional success. Many people claim that "med school name" is pretty much irrelevant to an individual's ultimate success as a doctor. There is plenty of evidence to back up this claim (incidentally, I happen to align myself with this particular assertion). For instance, there are gross discrepancies between institutional prestige and the career paths of graduates--if you really investigate this issue, you'll find that people from unranked medical schools manage to secure spots in the most prestigious residency programs, including programs in the most competitive specialties (orthopaedics, neurosurgery, otorhinolaryngology, etc.). The house staff listings at top residency programs , with very few exceptions, include a surprisingly high proportion of grads from mid-tier and unranked schools.

Most individuals in the medical community would agree with the statement that residency placement can have a significant impact on career opportunities. Fortunately, the Match depends almost exclusively on the applicant's performance as a medical student (board scores, clinical evaluations, etc) and his/her interview; prestige of the applicant's medical school is merely a secondary factor.

The bottom line is that medicine truly is a field that rewards people on the basis of merit, not institutional affiliation. Dentistry, according to my dad anyways, is the same way. If you excel at any dental school in the country, your career options are wide open. My dad is a dentist, and he strongly believes that prestige is pretty much worthless--success depends on the individual, not the school.

 

[drPheta]

Elias, well put. Though I have said in the past that med school does put emphasis on institute name for residencies, I do realize that name isn't everything. Heck, I have friends going to SGU, and they tell me that they know of alumni who get to participate in very well regarded recidencies. However, I still feel that a med school's name has more of an effect than a dental school's name. I say this mainly because there are wayyyy more med school graduates fighting for residencies than dental school graduates.

You are right, though. Within the health professions, name has a supportive role (be it minimal) in specialty/residency.


This thread is still going...it's more powerful than the Energizer Bunny.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Id have to disagree, everyone keeps saying this but does it really hold true? Why is it that in almost every other feild it depends on what school you went to, but in dentistry it doesnt?

Becuase our field is one of the few that blends academic knowledge with a manual practice. You can enter dental school already having fabulous hand skills, and even a mediocre school can teach you plenty about dentin and enamel.

The statement is 100% true. Also, in law school, graduates with high ranking in the top 10 schools (or even the Trinity of Standford, Harvard, and Yale) are the ones who are sought after for the high-paying jobs. Not so in dentistry. Graduates at the bottom of the class have a MUCH better chance of earning just as much (or more) than those who sit higher in the class. In dentistry is simply doesn't matter, whereas in law school it makes a world of difference. Just ask the recent law grads, one of which is making $140,000 and the other that is pulling in $65,000.

 

[elias514]

Yeah, law and business schools are weird--where you get your degree has a HUGE impact on job placement and immediate earning potential. Fortunately, dentistry and medicine don't work this way, primarily because the majority of grads still go into private practice AND specialization requires additional schooling. God bless dentistry and medicine! Screw law and business.

 

[ItsGavinC]

God bless dentistry and medicine! Screw law and business.

Amen (even though I'm getting my law degree after dental school).

 

[edkNARF]

Amen (even though I'm getting my law degree after dental school).

Why? I don't understand the advantage of a DMD/JD?