A note about Affirmative action

[macdown]

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Ok come on, I don't necessarily agree with him, but you're unfairly twisiting his words. Someone said earlier that unlike several ethnic groups, including the jews, blacks were "extremely" discriminated against (i.e. slavery, lynchings, other horrible things) and he was bringing up the point that the jews, as an ethnic group, faced unbelievable oppression and hardship during the 30s and 40s....after the holocaust many jews found they had no homes to return to and, displaced, they emmigrated--many to isreal, many here--so it is relevant to our discussion on ethnic groups in this country who have overcome increadible discrimination and hardship.

Also, he did not mean to make light of the Jim Crow laws--the point of that statement was CLEARLY to illustrate the magnitude of the holocaust (6 MILLION!! people killed, many more affected) and I think you know that. Its not fair to accuse him of being racist and say that he doesn't think the jim crow laws were unjust....christ....

I wanted to add that the Jews have been oppressed far longer than any other group of people on earth. You know the pyramids in Egypt? Do you think they got built on they own? No, they were built by the Jews, 5000 years ago. Blacks enslaving Jews. It's real easy to forget about that, since the black man has been taught that he and only he has been oppress or wronged in this world. If you want to futher read up on the oppression the black man has placed on the Jews there is a little book called the Torah you can read (that's the Old Testament for the gentiles).

Fast forward to the present... the Neo-nazi/ anti-semite movement is still alive today, blaming and murdering the Jews for the wrongs of this world. Last I heard was no black man had to worry about a Klan lynching.

Let me also say something about the Italians, they are probably one of the most unrecognized groups today. Their hard work built this country and even now it is still vouge to bash them. How many time is an Itallian portrayed as a gressy mobster in movies and TV or shown as a less then trustworthy individual? I can't meet one person without them asking me if my family has mob ties, I've been called WOP or daigo and yes it is offensive, but I don't say anything, why? Because I don't care what people say, most of my people don't care. We suck it up and move on. Which is my advice to you, Suck it up and move on.

(For thoes wondering, I am half Italian Jew and half Asian)

 

[Noeljan]

ok this is a little off topic,
but I disagree with the person who said actors and NBA players cannot be included because of their extreme talent. Let's not buy into the fact that talent only comes in form of major athletics or entertainment (which most are lacking of talent and get to be famous bc their parents were rich). Let's not downplay academic talent and put those people any higher up the pedestal that they are🙂
ok I said what I wanted to.
ps
hey mac I am Sicilian and Polish🙂

 

[mochief2000]

This country was formed by europeans, thus the country we see now is basically mainly all the hard work from the europeans who came here and did stuff. You can't tell a German or a Briton, but you can tell an Asian or a Black.

In any case, if you don't want to be discrimnated, just be a WASP. 😉

Sorry to tell u, this country was built by slaves, immigrants and migrate workers. Europeans sat behind desk(most of them) and gave orders. If u want to say that the produced the blueprint, cool. but not much labor. so they didn't build no country, they imagined a country and had it built for them.

 

[Noeljan]

My European family members were immigrants🙂

 

[Gbemi24]

Ok come on, I don't necessarily agree with him, but you're unfairly twisiting his words. .

How did I twist his words? This discussion is about discrimination in America, NOT discrimination elsewhere so what is the relevance of the holocaust? Some of the black slaves also belonged to tribes that were massacred by other African tribes. Should I bring that up? NO! Why not? BECAUSE IT IS IRRELEVANT. Try to stay on topic.

Also, he did not mean to make light of the Jim Crow laws--the point of that statement was CLEARLY to illustrate the magnitude of the holocaust (6 MILLION!! people killed, many more affected) and I think you know that. Its not fair to accuse him of being racist and say that he doesn't think the jim crow laws were unjust....christ....

Do you have to refer to the lynching and oppression of others as "Kindergarten rules" in order to point out that the holocaust was worse than Jim Crow? No. So only an insensitive pr*ck would do that. I don't know why you would choose to defend such crass behavior.

 

[mochief2000]

I wanted to add that the Jews have been oppressed far longer than any other group of people on earth. You know the pyramids in Egypt? Do you think they got built on they own? No, they were built by the Jews, 5000 years ago. Blacks enslaving Jews. It's real easy to forget about that, since the black man has been taught that he and only he has been oppress or wronged in this world. If you want to futher read up on the oppression the black man has placed on the Jews there is a little book called the Torah you can read (that's the Old Testament for the gentiles).

Fast forward to the present... the Neo-nazi/ anti-semite movement is still alive today, blaming and murdering the Jews for the wrongs of this world. Last I heard was no black man had to worry about a Klan lynching.

Let me also say something about the Italians, they are probably one of the most unrecognized groups today. Their hard work built this country and even now it is still vouge to bash them. How many time is an Itallian portrayed as a gressy mobster in movies and TV or shown as a less then trustworthy individual? I can't meet one person without them asking me if my family has mob ties, I've been called WOP or daigo and yes it is offensive, but I don't say anything, why? Because I don't care what people say, most of my people don't care. We suck it up and move on. Which is my advice to you, Suck it up and move on.

(For thoes wondering, I am half Italian Jew and half Asian)

the jews were not the only ones building egypt, get your facts right. No klan lyching, that's because we are stronger. The can't kill us physically, but they doing a heck of job killing us economiclly.

 

[Blake]

Whoa, blacks enslaving jews 5000 years ago ? Care to give us a link, or should I start reading the Torah to get more details ? You consider egyptians and pharaohs as black ? Interesting...

 

[Sapps]

It's not even worth it anymore. Professors have lied so much to students these days students actually believe ridiculous nonsense as reality. Jim Crow laws were primarily classist, not racist.

Historically speaking, I know of several groups that have had it much worse than african americans: Slavs(did you know the word slave comes from slav?), Jews, Irish. All of these groups comprise a decent chunk of the US population when added together, too.

There is just no sound argument that past injustice can be repaid in the here and now. It doesn't work for dozens of reasons. There's no debate. You can, however, say that modern times are an injustice, and they actually are in the case of URMs. However, URMs aren't the only ones who unduly suffer under them. In actuality, it's a class thing, not a race thing. The only valid, fair way to ameliorate the situation is by looking at several class based variables: Economic status, the education of the parents, and the home environment(single parents? 12 siblings? etc.)

 

[Noeljan]

The only valid, fair way to ameliorate the situation is by looking at several class based variables: Economic status, the education of the parents, and the home environment(single parents? 12 siblings? etc.)
I agree with this🙂

 

[Sapps]

Whoa, blacks enslaving jews 5000 years ago ? Care to give us a link, or should I start reading the Torah to get more details ? You consider egyptians and pharaohs as black ? Interesting...

Well, the Nubians did overrun Egypt for at least some time. Calling Egyptians black is a bit odd, though. I don't think the race of the "enslaver" is of paramount importance anyway.

 

[Blake]

The only valid, fair way to ameliorate the situation is by looking at several class based variables: Economic status, the education of the parents, and the home environment(single parents? 12 siblings? etc.)
I agree with this🙂

I think most people agree with this...

 

[mochief2000]

It's not even worth it anymore. Professors have lied so much to students these days students actually believe ridiculous nonsense as reality. Jim Crow laws were primarily classist, not racist.

Historically speaking, I know of several groups that have had it much worse than african americans: Slavs(did you know the word slave comes from slav?), Jews, Irish. All of these groups comprise a decent chunk of the US population when added together, too.

There is just no sound argument that past injustice can be repaid in the here and now. It doesn't work for dozens of reasons. There's no debate. You can, however, say that modern times are an injustice, and they actually are in the case of URMs. However, URMs aren't the only ones who unduly suffer under them. In actuality, it's a class thing, not a race thing. The only valid, fair way to ameliorate the situation is by looking at several class based variables: Economic status, the education of the parents, and the home environment(single parents? 12 siblings? etc.)

CLASS!!
So answer this, if Jim crows was class and not race, if I was rich and black could i vote? could I use a "ALL White" restroom? did i have to sit in the back set of the bus, could i eat in a white resturant? give me a break, it had nothing to do with class. just the color of my skin.

on your other paragraph, America held us down for 300 years and in 40 everything is suppose to be all good. I wish. It takes time. I don't agrue that other groups had it bad also. We can't use slavery forever, but 40 years is defintly not enough to say it equal.

 

[tofurious]

The black man has been taught that he and only he has been oppress or wronged in this world.

BINGO, while other groups look back and see how the group before them has succeeded through EXTREME hardship and gets motivated. Like Bill Cosby said, the adult African Americans are partially to blame for a lot of what is happeneding to the African American children.

"I can't even talk the way these people talk, 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... and I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. And then I heard the father talk ... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth... It is almost analgesic to talk about what the white man is doing against us. And it keeps a person frozen in their seat, it keeps you frozen in your hole you're sitting in." - Bill Cosby

 

[superso]

i know the answer. build a time machine. dont go to iraq. use the 1 trillion to improve public schools. one generation later? equal society.

 

[veenut]

Does Bill Cosby realize that he only played a doctor on TV?

 

[Noeljan]

Does Bill Cosby realize that he only played a doctor on TV?
that was classic🙂

 

[W222]

I believe VELOCYPEDALIST got what I was saying, apparently people jumped on me because they took what I said out of context.

Blacks and whites should read "A People's History of the US" by Zin. It basically points out all the BS that we have been fed in school about our country.

Whoever the idiot was who said that Europeans did nothing to build this country is way off base. Please, my family came from Germany (as Jews) and Scottland and started their own grocery and butcher business. They worked for everything they got. My uncle went to college of an athletic scholarship and never would have gone if he didnt row crew. None in my family are wealthy, maybe after almost 100 years upper-middle class, but we worked for it. My family has given alot to this country (lives in WWII) and taken nothing at anyone else's expense. Get off the "everybody is out to get me" soap box, its old.

 

[Blake]

i know the answer. build a time machine. dont go to iraq. use the 1 trillion to improve public schools. one generation later? equal society.

It'd take way more than one generation to make things equal. I hate to admit this, but the truth is there are a lot of URMs out there who just don't want to work hard enough to be part of the upper classes in society. Sure, improving public schools will tremendously help the cause of URMs, yet I feel that it'd be even more effective to change some mentalities out there.

 

[mochief2000]

BINGO, while other groups look back and see how the group before them has succeeded through EXTREME hardship and gets motivated. Like Bill Cosby said, the adult African Americans are partially to blame for a lot of what is happeneding to the African American children.

please don't use Bill Cosby. If u listen to black radio or BET, bill ain't liked. It's because Bill didn't grow up poor and underpriviledged, he has had it good and then he's been in the white mainstream to long. Bill ain't been to the ghetto in his life. and what makes u think that we don't see the past as use it as motivation. In some instances bill is right(rare) in most he is not seeing the total picture. it more to a story then then the back of a book.

 

[mochief2000]

I believe VELOCYPEDALIST got what I was saying, apparently people jumped on me because they took what I said out of context.

Blacks and whites should read "A People's History of the US" by Zin. It basically points out all the BS that we have been fed in school about our country.

Whoever the idiot was who said that Europeans did nothing to build this country is way off base. Please, my family came from Germany (as Jews) and Scottland and started their own grocery and butcher business. They worked for everything they got. My uncle went to college of an athletic scholarship and never would have gone if he didnt row crew. None in my family are wealthy, maybe after almost 100 years upper-middle class, but we worked for it. My family has given alot to this country (lives in WWII) and taken nothing at anyone else's expense. Get off the "everybody is out to get me" soap box, its old.

blacks fought in WW2 also,but did it get better for them. Oh my god my parents started there own grocery store. wow, please, give me a break. that is the weakest, i mean weakest example i heard so far.

 

[Noeljan]

that is fine mochief
but the problem I have with it is that many white have grown up poor in the inner city, and told to suck it up. I am not saying anyone (white or black) should be treated that way, but that is the way it is. That is why I think it should only be based on economics, parents education etc. This way, no one can argue my group had it worse at this time, etc. Also you have to understand the whole, you did this to us argument is kind of....well some of us don't really know what to make of it (considering most "white" people have no ties to the previous slave owners here). Also, when people make this argument people seem to say well URMs are that poor...well if you go on how THAT person was brought up then if 90% happen to be URMs then so be it. Then everyone wins. All the people with real disadvantages will get special consideration.

 

[mochief2000]

BINGO, while other groups look back and see how the group before them has succeeded through EXTREME hardship and gets motivated. Like Bill Cosby said, the adult African Americans are partially to blame for a lot of what is happeneding to the African American children.

"I can't even talk the way these people talk, 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... and I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. And then I heard the father talk ... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth... It is almost analgesic to talk about what the white man is doing against us. And it keeps a person frozen in their seat, it keeps you frozen in your hole you're sitting in." - Bill Cosby

what makes it wrong that we talk different. So he's saying I am not smart enough to be a doctor because I speak ebonics. Does he even know ebonics is a language. It has its roots from a mixture of french and slavery( when a slave pronouced a word it sounded different). i told u that man is white'er than micheal jackson.

 

[W222]

MOcheif, you really have to look beyond hatred. You cant even see what I am saying because its blinding you. Look at previous posts. Someone wrote that Europeans sat behind desks and built this country at the expense of blacks and asians. Not my family and not the familes of many Americans. Get real, I am from a northeast city that was built by the Irish and Italian, they started from the ground up and were hated every step of the way. What is your problem that you feel everyone is out to get you? I pray I never run into people like you in the future, because you are the first who has been so bold to say the things you have. I have at the age of 25 given back quite a bit to the community, and I didnt have the easy life you claim all white americans have.

 

[care bear]

It's not even worth it anymore. Professors have lied so much to students these days students actually believe ridiculous nonsense as reality. Jim Crow laws were primarily classist, not racist.

😱 😱 😱

you look my mother, a little 'colored' girl from missisippi, born in 1952, in the eye- and tell her that. tell her the *truth* about jim crow laws. i'm sure she will love to have her ridiculous notions corrected.

 

[Blake]

😱 😱 😱

you look my mother, a little 'colored' girl from missisippi, born in 1952, in the eye- and tell her that. tell her the *truth* about jim crow laws. i'm sure she will love to have her ridiculous notions corrected.

And he's a future doctor

 

[MoosePilot]

This thread is officially a train wreck.

 

[mochief2000]

that is fine mochief
but the problem I have with it is that many white have grown up poor in the inner city, and told to suck it up. I am not saying anyone (white or black) should be treated that way, but that is the way it is. That is why I think it should only be based on economics, parents education etc. This way, no one can argue my group had it worse at this time, etc. Also you have to understand the whole, you did this to us argument is kind of....well some of us don't really know what to make of it (considering most "white" people have no ties to the previous slave owners here). Also, when people make this argument people seem to say well URMs are that poor...well if you go on how THAT person was brought up then if 90% happen to be URMs then so be it. Then everyone wins. All the people with real disadvantages will get special consideration.

that's fine except it's not just about income. Diversity, is also there. Action speaks louder that words. Do u now how much motivation a black kid gets by seeing black proffesionals. some have this i ain't smart complex, b/c there ain't much black showing him (like doctor, judges,lawyers etc) he has the capacity. AA is only around for another 50 years. its not that bad. think if it was around now how many URM would be in school. Diversity in profession has a lot to do with it.

 

[mochief2000]

MOcheif, you really have to look beyond hatred. You cant even see what I am saying because its blinding you. Look at previous posts. Someone wrote that Europeans sat behind desks and built this country at the expense of blacks and asians. Not my family and not the familes of many Americans. Get real, I am from a northeast city that was built by the Irish and Italian, they started from the ground up and were hated every step of the way. What is your problem that you feel everyone is out to get you? I pray I never run into people like you in the future, because you are the first who has been so bold to say the things you have. I have at the age of 25 given back quite a bit to the community, and I didnt have the easy life you claim all white americans have.

first of all I said IMMIGRANTS and blacks and...man read it again. if your parent was a immigrant most likely they helped also. did u see that part? I have no hatred. just viewpoints. When have i bragged about anything. You kinda ignorant in a non-hatred way. likewise don't want to run into ignorant people.

 

[Sapps]

😱 😱 😱

you look my mother, a little 'colored' girl from missisippi, born in 1952, in the eye- and tell her that. tell her the *truth* about jim crow laws. i'm sure she will love to have her ridiculous notions corrected.

Go pick up a non-classist text on the south, ante-bellum to present. You will be surprised.

 

[W222]

You said white-Europeans and immigrants, unless you are counting those who came with Columbus, they are one in the same. For the most part, to try and claim many white americans were part of slavery is BS. The influx of immigrants in the 1900s populated the country for the most part and it was mainly the wealthy who owned slaves due to cost of care. But I do agree that JC Laws and institutional racism was/maybe still is a problem in the south.

 

[mochief2000]

You said white-Europeans and immigrants, unless you are counting those who came with Columbus, they are one in the same. For the most part, to try and claim many white americans were part of slavery is BS. The influx of immigrants in the 1900s populated the country for the most part and it was mainly the wealthy who owned slaves due to cost of care. But I do agree that JC Laws and institutional racism was/maybe still is a problem in the south.

the only white immigrant that had a significant impact was the irish. I never said all whites was part of slavery. but all or most adopted jim crow laws. Not sayin all, but most.

 

[Sapps]

the only white immigrant that had a significant impact was the irish. I never said all whites was part of slavery. but all or most adopted jim crow laws. Not sayin all, but most.

Are you this ignorant? Germans built the majority of the Northen US, sans the north eastern seaboard.

 

[Sapps]

Hell. The northern US? The northern US, the midwest, the west, etc.

 

[velo]

the only white immigrant that had a significant impact was the irish. I never said all whites was part of slavery. but all or most adopted jim crow laws. Not sayin all, but most.

yeah man, this is rediculous...re-read what you've been posting. The more you post the less I'm inclined to support you.

 

[mochief2000]

Hell. The northern US? The northern US, the midwest, the west, etc.

are u smoking? stop with the drugs. German's, yeah right. there specialty is destroying not building.

 

[Blake]

are u smoking? stop with the drugs. German's, yeah right. there specialty is destroying not building.

My support for you went down the drain 👎 🙁

 

[mochief2000]

yeah man, this is rediculous...re-read what you've been posting. The more you post the less I'm inclined to support you.

support me? Support what u think is right.

 

[velo]

German's, yeah right. there specialty is destroying not building.

Ok, I'm officially not listening to you anymore...you've just marginalized and stereotyped an entire nationality....I guess you're only for understanding and tolerence when we're talking about tolerating your race. Minorities can be racist too....

 

[mochief2000]

My support for you went down the drain 👎 🙁

cool, but i defend my people. so I still am on top. 👍

 

[mochief2000]

Ok, I'm officially not listening to you anymore...you've just marginalized and stereotyped an entire nationality....I guess you're only for understanding and tolerence when we're talking about tolerating your race. Minorities can be racist too....

this trend is sterotypical. URM's are accepted with less GPA and MCAT scores. like its everyone. So i'm a racist now... i guess u are only for understadning and tolerence when talking about your race.

 

[Sapps]

cool, but i defend my people. so I still am on top. 👍

You better be banned soon.

 

[Blake]

cool, but i defend my people. so I still am on top. 👍

It's okay to defend your people, no problem with that. It's another thing when you belittle other people and minimize their importance in society. But what do I know, being part of '' your people '' ?

 

[Blake]

You better be banned soon.

🙄

 

[Sapps]

🙄

Oh, don't be a hypocrite now.

 

[Blake]

Oh, don't be a hypocrite now.

The irony is so blatant, it hurts... 🙄

 

[mochief2000]

Umm, To bring up the Jews comment (not one myself) but the 30s and 40s were kinda rough on the Jews. As well as Polls, Slovaks, Gypsies, Croats, basically any local ethnic group other than Germans or fair skinned Europeans. Frankly, the Holocast was kinda a bad thing. Made Jim Crow laws look like Kindergarten rules.

im belittling everybody right...
SAAPS defintely sould be banned.

 

[Blake]

im belittling everybody right...
SAAPS defintely sould be banned.

I know others have made far worse comments. I don't think talking to them will bring more sense into their thick skulls. But I am sorry if you took my post the wrong way, it wasn't my intention. Sapps was banned a few days ago, with another account. That's why I think his post was funny.

 

[mochief2000]

So blatant, it hurts... 🙄

its kinda funny. you were on SAAPS side. THat person got issues with people esp minorities.

 

[Blake]

its kinda funny. you were on SAAPS side. THat person got issues with people esp minorities.

Wait a second there. I'm supporting SAAPS ? Where the hell did you get this ? Hell, I saw his racist comment that got him banned the other day.

And what you quoted was directed at him.

 

[mochief2000]

I know others have made far worse comments. I don't think talking to them will bring more sense into their thick skulls. But I am sorry if you took my post the wrong way, it wasn't my attention.

You are cool, your viewpoints are interesting and as close to neutral as possible. Its SAAPS that gets my blood a little stirred. Sorry if i offended u and velocypadelist