AA Solution? Need feedback.

[geneman]

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Whether you feel AA redresses societal racism or perpetuates them / whether you see it promotes diversity or undermines meritocracy / whether you recognize it benefits a particular race or rather stigmatizes that same race, the AA debate is coming to a close. The fence-sitters now probably prefer one side over the other. The activists are clearly set in their ideologies. Yet amazingly, I have not heard one concrete suggestion on how to get out of this problem (and we all agree it is a problem). As a starter, I will offer a possible compromise.

A Diversity Tax
* 20 cent tax on regular gas. 30 cent tax on premium gas.
* Proceeds (~$30 billion/year) go towards a fund that awards competitive grants to local organizations, which provide educational opportunities (K-12) in underprivileged areas.
* Affirmative Action is repealed in 2008.
* Diversity Tax is reviewed annually after 2013.

After 2013, based on results, the DT can be continued, phased out slowly, or eliminated immediately. Over a 10 year period, this will result in a half trillion dollar investment concentrated in lower SES areas. The competitive nature of the grants and the benefit of local organizations knowing their communities best will increase the chances of real results.

Liberals will enjoy the progressively scaled pro-conservation tax on gasoline, while maintaining a viable mechanism (i.e., unassisted meritocracy) of promoting diversity. Conservatives will see the elimination of AA and the upholding of the principles of fair competition and race neutrality.

Whatever the details end up being, I think the final compromise to solve the AA debate is going to require a trade between eliminating the program and subsequently providing alternative support for the ideals of the program -? in a constitutionally acceptable way. But the devil is in the details...

 

[vixenell]

The minute you add a diversity tax on gas is the minute when americans will suddenly become interested in hybrid & electric cars. How about a tax on something like toilet paper--- no one can avoid that...

Good general idea, though.

If a radical new school reform project were to begin tomorrow, I think that AA would be phased out completely by the time that present third graders graduate from high school (~2012ish). This would, of course, involve putting a buttload of effort into improving k-12 schools.

An alternative to the diversity tax would, of course, be a federal-controlled education tax (no more property taxes); that way, all schools will have an equal shot at getting the tools they need.

 

[indo]

If you want to promote hydroge/electric powered vehicles then put a tax on gas and tell everyone you're using the money to help Iraqis rebuild.

 

[vixenell]

This is pretty funny; 5 threads on AA manage to thrive for a couple of weeks, but the second someone suggests coming up with solutions: near silence.

Perhaps a nice bump will help.

 

[Ernham]

It's not quite as simple as funneling some money into some area(s). I can tell you with 99.9% certainty of how someone is going to do in life, education-wise, by three factors:

1. Socioeconomic status. By far the greatest predictor.
.
2. Level of education of the individuals parents.(secon best predictor)

3. Home environment (such as how many parents)

You notice how "school attended" isn't up there? Notice how race isn't up there?

Looking at these areas should be priority number one. I know in a few states they have grants for students that come from families that don't have anything more than a high school education, those are the sorts of programs we need. All of these have been looked at and there are some programs out there, but these should be the defining points of AA, not skin color.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by vixenell
This is pretty funny; 5 threads on AA manage to thrive for a couple of weeks, but the second someone suggests coming up with solutions: near silence.

Perhaps a nice bump will help.

Good point Vixenell.


There's no doubt that improving education at the grade school level will help but even with that, there are some people in positions of power hell bent on excluding people from certian fields/universities based on the color of their skin.. I'd propose a take on the top 10% from each high school theme. The top 2 or 3% of declared premed students (not sure how the numbers would work out) from every college and university should be guarenteed a seat in medical school. Assuming this makes up 60% of all availlable seats, 20% of seats should be reserved for students that were not in the top percentages but have other good premed qualities like MCAT, EC's, ect and the remaining 20% of seats should be reserved for nontrads like myself😉. Each "group" would then be competing with other students in their "group" . Not sure how feasible this would be but it's a start.

 

[pathdr2b]

A bump for the anti AA people😉

 

[Cerberus]

my suggestions:

QUIT POSTING THESE GODDAMN AA THREADS!!!!!

thank you😉

 

[DarkChild]

woohoooooooooooooo
did someone say AA???

i just love a good AA throw down 😉
pathdr - but not all schools are created equally - the student population at a particular school can be of a much higher (or lower) calibre than at another school.
to me a system like that doesnt push people to excel absolutely, but rather to excel competitively. so for instance, as a premed why would i have wasted time going to say Duke when I could go to podunk U, kick some butt, party hardy and still be guaranteed to get in.
if anything the risk of failure is one of the best motivational tools. because nothing is guaranteed in the med admissions game, it teaches you humility and makes sure that for the most part the people who play the game really want to be doctors.

Originally posted by pathdr2b
I'd propose a take on the top 10% from each high school theme. The top 2 or 3% of declared premed students (not sure how the numbers would work out) from every college and university should be guarenteed a seat in medical school. Assuming this makes up 60% of all availlable seats, 20% of seats should be reserved for students that were not in the top percentages but have other good premed qualities like MCAT, EC's, ect and the remaining 20% of seats should be reserved for nontrads like myself😉. Each "group" would then be competing with other students in their "group" . Not sure how feasible this would be but it's a start.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by DarkChild
pathdr - but not all schools are created equally - the student population at a particular school can be of a much higher (or lower) calibre than at another school.
to me a system like that doesnt push people to excel absolutely, but rather to excel competitively. so for instance, as a premed why would i have wasted time going to say Duke when I could go to podunk U, kick some butt, party hardy and still be guaranteed to get in

Not all premeds are created equally either and as for the Duke versus Pudunk U comparion don't think for one minute that people aren't matriculating at lessor competitive schools now to better their chances of getting into medical school. My point is that people seem to be OK with this system of the top % of for undergrad admission so why not apply a similar system for professional school admissions? I also doubt that students getting A's at say the University of North Florida party any harder than students getting A's at UPenn. This seems to be a somewhat elitist assumption on your part.

As a rule I have no problem with criticism, but I thought this thread was about suggesting a replacement for AA. What's your's?

 

[DarkChild]

🙂
well i think the voters in texas are happy with their system, but applying it to both private and public schools might be a problem. i believe the system you're referring to when you say "My point is that people seem to be OK with this system of the top % of for undergrad admission" is the UT system. but not to sound like an elitist pr!ck - but the UT schools arent top tier schools.
Also - as much as folks like to ignore it, there is a difference between an A at UNF party school and at Penn. I mean I saw this at my undergrad (Columbia) where we had an all-women's school (Barnard) right next to us. Much love and respect for Barnard, but their classes were pretty easy.
and lastly, there is a difference between having a few folks choose "less competitive" schools (the "" are for all the caveats that go along with that statement 🙂 ) to better their odds of getting into med school and having an institutionalized system that rewards playing down to the competition. 😎
As for my proposal for an alternative to AA - I dont have one 😀
i like the system just fine the way its working now. if anything we should be increasing the number of minorities in med schools etc. because the levels are still woefully low. i do believe that some more supplementing to AA is necessary, something that addresses educational disparities at the primary school level, etc.
So all in all, i'm taking choice C - which is to defend the current implementation of AA. 🙂

Originally posted by pathdr2b
Not all premeds are created equally either and as for the Duke versus Pudunk U comparion don't think for one minute that people aren't matriculating at lessor competitive schools now to better their chances of getting into medical school. My point is that people seem to be OK with this system of the top % of for undergrad admission so why not apply a similar system for professional school admissions? I also doubt that students getting A's at say the University of North Florida party any harder than students getting A's at UPenn. This seems to be a somewhat elitist assumption on your part.

As a rule I have no problem with criticism, but I thought this thread was about suggesting a replacement for AA. What's your's?

 

[Cerberus]

oops probaly offended Becky with the "GD"

 

[geneman]

Ernham: You mention three broad factors but don't offer a strong, clear alternative. While ~80% of the American public is against race-based admissions, a similar figure supports diversity in higher education. The year after AA is axed, there will almost certainly be a steep drop in URM admissions -- and a subsequent backlash supporting alternative ways to promote diversity. If this issue isn't pre-empted by anti-AA'ers (for example, by a robust educational policy targeting underprivileged children), then institutions will begin implementing so-called "race neutral" policies (paradoxically defined by their capacity to generate racial diversity) -- a somewhat more benign version of AA.

Seriously, take a break from SDN for a few days and use that well-researched noggin of yours to come up with some sort of bold compromise, one that gets rid of AA but addresses the real concerns of the pro-AA people. It's the only way to "win" this debate. I'd be very curious to hear what you come with.

Cerebrus: "QUIT POSTING THESE GODDAMN AA THREADS!!!!!" How about (gasp!) you quit reading them? You remind me of those people in the movie theaters that shout, "Shh!!" so loudly that they are more annoying than the person being shushed.

pathdr2b: One criticism of the Texas-style race-neutral system is that, in order to do what it is intended to do (i.e., promote racial diversity), the system depends on schools remaining segregated. Also, specific to med school admission, getting into the UT schools is not on the same level as getting into *any* medical school. In fact, the risk of people doing exactly what DC suggested (i.e., going to crappy college X to get into the top Y%) is extremely high.

DarkChild: "As for my proposal for an alternative to AA - I dont have one 😀" What a cop-out. 😉

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by geneman pathdr2b: One criticism of the Texas-style race-neutral system is that, in order to do what it is intended to do (i.e., promote racial diversity), the system depends on schools remaining segregated. Also, specific to med school admission, getting into the UT schools is not on the same level as getting into *any* medical school. In fact, the risk of people doing exactly what DC suggested (i.e., going to crappy college X to get into the top Y%) is extremely high.[/B]

I agree. But the MCAT is a great neutralizer so if someone attends a crappy school but can't get a decent score, then other parts of the app would have to be strong to justify admissions and that is the point to focus on the person and not the numbers right?

 

[vixenell]

So... no one in favor of a TP tax?

😛

 

[Entei]

I think this thread has so few replies because people are unsure how to respond to such lunacy. A gas tax to fix the problems with AA? Why would anyone agree to this? The problem with AA now is that it benefits some people with middle-of-the-road stats while harming some other people with middle-of-the-road stats. It by no means effects everyone, so why make basically everyone pay a "diversity tax" to change the system? This is America. The communist solution you're proposing would never fly!

As for guaranteeing the top 10% of college students a spot in med school, I don't think that's a good solution either. First of all, it's presumptuous to assume that all the smart college kids even WANT to go into medicine. There are plenty of people with excellent GPAs who have never even considered a medical career. Second, I think the top 10% of college students don't necessarily have to worry about getting admitted to med school under the current system anyway. It's a fairytale that says that students with high stats get bumped in favor of minority applications. It's more along the lines of "barely competitive" applicants getting bumped in favor of "slightly competitive" URM applicants. The best "defense" in such a system is to get high grades and scores, so I think the 10% system would only create more confusion. What score would guarantee a spot at which school? And how would we address the "intangibles" of the applicant like ECs, maturity, compassion, etc?

I'm a "cop-out" too because I don't have a "solution" to the AA problem. I agree that the system is flawed, but it's not so flawed that you have to go digging into MY pocket in order to fix it. I agree with Cerberus. These threads should be kept in the Romper Room (Everyone Forum).

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Entei
I think this thread has so few replies because people are
As for guaranteeing the top 10% of college students a spot in med school, I don't think that's a good solution either. First of all, it's presumptuous to assume that all the smart college kids even WANT to go into medicine.

I specified top PREMED students not top students. Try reading the post next time.

Home environment (such as how many parents)

I don't believe that this factor is important in light of the STRONG influence of the other 2 factors. I am the child of divorced parents ( both college educated). I hold 3 college degrees including an MS in Chemistry and I'm applying MD/PhD this year. If all goes well I'll have 6 college dipolmas ( gotta finish that MPH 😉) 2 at each level: Bachelor's, Master's, and Doctorate. So I guess if my parents had stay marreid, I would have earned 12 degrees ?

 

[geneman]

Originally posted by Entei
I think this thread has so few replies because people are unsure how to respond to such lunacy. A gas tax to fix the problems with AA? Why would anyone agree to this? The problem with AA now is that it benefits some people with middle-of-the-road stats while harming some other people with middle-of-the-road stats. It by no means effects everyone, so why make basically everyone pay a "diversity tax" to change the system? This is America. The communist solution you're proposing would never fly!

I'm a "cop-out" too because I don't have a "solution" to the AA problem. I agree that the system is flawed, but it's not so flawed that you have to go digging into MY pocket in order to fix it. I agree with Cerberus. These threads should be kept in the Romper Room (Everyone Forum).

Entei,

I'm not sure you fully appreciate the significance of Affirmative Action. It doesn't just affect, as you imply, a minority of people. It has profound consequences on all of college admissions, med/law/business/graduate admissions, and the ultimate shaping of careers. The direct effects of AA are powerful.

But even more importantly, AA attacks the very ideals of America. It creates the absurd notion that society should reward its citizens based on their race and not their merits. It also hardens racial divisions and patronizes certain racial groups.

But your point is taken that certain individuals have a greater stake in [getting rid of] AA. The same argument has been used in the Reparations debate (e.g., I had nothing to do with slavery, so why should I have any responsibility for it?). Well, the only thing I can say is this: you have to decide whether the American principles you believe in, those of race neutrality and meritocracy, are worth the cost of any "tax" (whether it be gas or whatever). I think it is.

PS - You acknowledge AA is flawed but, because it has little direct effect on you, the government shouldn't go in YOUR pocket to fix it. Well, surprise: the wealthiest 5% of Americans (the bracket you will one day find yourself in) pays over 50% of the government's bill. In other words, YOUR pocket is funding tons of programs that have virtually no benefit for yourself.

PPS - It's no fun getting into the nitty-gritty of finding solutions. If it were that easy, we'd have one by now. But shooting down proposals without offering an alternative is, indeed, a cop-out.

 

[DarkChild]

Originally posted by geneman
Entei,
PPS - It's no fun getting into the nitty-gritty of finding solutions. If it were that easy, we'd have one by now. But shooting down proposals without offering an alternative is, indeed, a cop-out.

😡 😡
arrrrggghh!!!
i'm getting sucked in again.
since i belong to the camp that has been called a "cop-out" for criticizing alternative AA plans but not suggesting an alternative, i feel the need to respond.
no one here has yet provided a damning indictment of AA if anything, the criticisms of AA have so far been pretty weak.
lets review them:
geneman -
"But even more importantly, AA attacks the very ideals of America. It creates the absurd notion that society should reward its citizens based on their race and not their merits. It also hardens racial divisions and patronizes certain racial groups"

"Whether you feel AA redresses societal racism or perpetuates them / whether you see it promotes diversity or undermines meritocracy / whether you recognize it benefits a particular race or rather stigmatizes that same race, the AA debate is coming to a close."

I'm picking on geneman because he's the only in this thread who's actually criticized AA instead of just saying its flawed.
1) I would argue that the core ideal of america is that everyone is created equal and everyone be given equal protection under the law. hand in hand with that idea is the idea that everyone have a fair chance, or equal opportunity, to make something of their life. I would contend that AA, by promoting diversity, assures URM an equal opportunity to pursue professional careers. if we just take a snap shot of america right now, we'd see that blacks and hispanics are underrepresented in medicine. Regardless of why it happens - it happens. AA aims to address this wrong regardless of why it happens. As I see it, AA is a very american idea - it aims to promote equality in its simplest form because it acknowledges that no matter how it happens, any form of inequality is unacceptable.
2) AA only perpetuates social racism in those who would otherwise find it given some other vehicle. I for one have never thought that a black or hispanic doctor got to be where they are by anything other than hardwork and a little luck. They passed the same exams as whites and jumped through the same hoops. To me they are equal. Now those who would say that URM doctors arent as qualified, would have found some other reason to dislike URMs. I think the vast majority of people arent really bothered by AA because for the most part folks realize that we need more minority doctors and so long as they pass all the requirements of medical licensing thats fine. So no, AA doesnt promote racial polarization.

Feel free to write back anyone, but please, not ernham style. if you're going to respond to me and expect me to actually take you seriously - address the points i made and my arguments, dont start slinging tomatos. lets keep it civilized 🙂

 

[Thundrstorm]

The AA debate is not about money. Therefore, a tax does not offer a valid solution. In fact, the real problem is not AA... it's the problem that AA attempts to address: racial inequality.

 

[Entei]

Pathdr2b, I did read all of your post. I understand that you meant students who are designated pre-med. However, I wanted to point out how that's likely to change over the course of one's college career. It's no secret that many students who enter school with the intention of going pre-med wind up changing their minds in favor of other fields. It's also true that many students might pursue other interests but then decide to become pre-med students. What happens to the students who are pre-med but decide to take a year or two off between college graduation and med school application? How would we factor them into the 10% group?

Regardless of which cohort of students you meant, I still find the system that you propose to be flawed. Who decides which school a student will attend in such a system? Suppose one candidate is qualified to attend Harvard and gets placed there, but cannot afford the tuition?

Geneman, income tax and property tax are completely different from the nationwide gas tax that you're proposing! I am fully prepared to have my tax dollars support programs that will not benefit me if I am ever fortunate enough to make it into that top 5% of earners. HOWEVER, I am not in a position to support anyone with my income now! I'm a student! The gas tax will affect EVERYONE regardless of their income. That's the problem I have with it. You cannot assume that such a tax would affect the "moderately wealthy" who can afford to own cars, either. Such a tax would also affect anyone who uses public transportation, like buses or taxis. In this situation, everyone would suffer to provide a small benefit for a small amount of people. (Not many people are affected by AA in med school admissions. This has been discussed at length in other threads.)

People like Dark Child or myself who can recognize the flaws in AA but not provide an alternative solution are not cop-outs. In my opinion, the situation is not ideal, but I don't think there are any other acceptable solutions! It's a matter of choosing the lesser of two evils. Sure, I could say AA is bad and then come up with a pie-in-the-sky solution like a nationwide gas tax, but that's not going to get us anywhere either! As much as I dislike the countless threads complaining about AA, I'm not about to pay more for gas to get some whiny slacker kid into med school.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Entei
What happens to the students who are pre-med but decide to take a year or two off between college graduation and med school application? How would we factor them into the 10% group?

Originally posted by pathdr2b
and the remaining 20% of seats should be reserved for nontrads like myself😉.

I did account for them as I am in that category😉

 

[Entei]

The last time I checked, taking a year or two off didn't classify someone as a nontrad. 🙄 Nontrads are people who decided to do something else instead of med school and then changed their minds years later. Taking a year or two to do research or travel prior to med school is a different story.

How about addressing the other issues I brought up?

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Since you asked.


1. Your plan would help more poor students into community colleges and lower tier state schools. This is a good thing. We need a more educated work force. However, your plan would do little for top tier undergrad universites and professional schools because it does not address middle class/rich black applicants. In other words, it would do little for current affirmative action beneficiaries.

2. The trucking industry would send hitmen after you. You might want to place an exemption for them. In any case, you can raise several hundred million dollars if you just raise the tax by 1 cent per gallon instead of 30 cents per gallon.

All in all, external loci (teachers' low expectations, racism, social economic status, etc) have been used far too much as reasons for blacks not acheiving their full potential. The only external cause we have not addressed sufficiently is distributive justice in admissions. Pro-AA advocates are correct. Legacy is not fair. Ironically, the people who effectuate Affirmative Action are the people who also effectuate legacy.

Internal loci (viewing intellictualism as "acting white", viewing academic standards such the MCAT as irrelevent, etc) are the causes we should be looking at. Prof Ogbu illustrated this in his Shaker Heights study. Blacks are demading to be motivated when the burden of motivation is within. Unfortunately, a combination of white guilt, black shame, and fear of returning to a segregationist past stiffen honest discussion on this topic.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Entei
The last time I checked, taking a year or two off didn't classify someone as a nontrad. 🙄 Nontrads are people who decided to do something else instead of med school and then changed their minds years later. Taking a year or two to do research or travel prior to med school is a different story.

How about addressing the other issues I brought up?

My belief is that the "traditional" medical student doesn't take time off, they go directly to med school. Everyone else is nontrad. I also thought this thread was about proposing alternatives not necessarily defending them. What's your alternative?

 

[SistaKaren]

Originally posted by Ryo-Ohki
All in all, external loci (teachers' low expectations, racism, social economic status, etc) have been used far too much as reasons for blacks not acheiving their full potential. The only external cause we have not addressed sufficiently is distributive justice in admissions. Pro-AA advocates are correct. Legacy is not fair. Ironically, the people who effectuate Affirmative Action are the people who also effectuate legacy.

Internal loci (viewing intellictualism as "acting white", viewing academic standards such the MCAT as irrelevent, etc) are the causes we should be looking at. Prof Ogbu illustrated this in his Shaker Heights study. Blacks are demading to be motivated when the burden of motivation is within. Unfortunately, a combination of white guilt, black shame, and fear of returning to a segregationist past stiffen honest discussion on this topic.

Wow. I really like the insights you have on this Ryo. I wonder, doesn't it seem like a cycle? I mean, it seems as though the 'internal' causes can be exacerbated by 'external' causes, which then reinforces the antipathy for intellectualism in the black community that you cite in the 'internal' causes...

Then again, I don't suppose I'm disagreeing with you at all here. Just commenting on what you said.

 

[geneman]

OK, let's get off the gas tax thing. I wasn't trying to specify the exact mechanism of how to obtain funds but rather the idea that additional funds will be necessary. Spreading the costs fairly can be tweaked to minimize pain in any one group.

DarkChild: I didn't make this thread to argue the merits of AA. I understand that, based on the different worldviews we've developed throughout our lives, we have a gentlemen's disagreement that won't be changed here and now.

I made the thread to solicit specific proposals, for those brave enough to search for compromises, on how to end the program while addressing the real concerns that the pro-AA faction has.

Thundrstorm: "The real problem is not AA... it's the problem that AA attempts to address: racial inequality." Thanks for being so specific. I'll add to your helpfulness: poverty is bad, so let's address socioeconomic inequality. Details please.

Entei: 1) "Not many people are affected by AA in med school admissions." 2) "As much as I dislike the countless threads complaining about AA, I'm not about to pay more for gas to get some whiny slacker kid into med school." 1) I already made clear that AA goes far beyond med school admissions. 2) You're not paying "to get some whiny slacker kid into med school". Your money would go directly to support primary education in underserved areas. Are you willing to pay for this?

Ryo-Ohki: As my long-ago posts show, I also recognize that the most important factor in producing long-term changes, in particular on cultural values such as education, derive from within a community. However, realistically, it is difficult (if not, counterproductive) for national policy to produce/impose cultural transformation. And changes from within, barring drastic events, typically occur slowly; unfortunately, in the long-run, we're all dead.

 

[Thundrstorm]

Okay, here's what I'm thinking: I'm kind of on the fence w/the AA issue. I see the need for such a program, though I think it's the wrong kind of help too late. There wouldn't be a need for college and med school AA programs if minority and low-income children had equal opportunities in primary and secondary schools. I think one major component of a solution has to be a change at the elementry, middle, and high school levels. Unequal funding and facilities, unequal quality of teaching, lack of resources and AP classes, and teachers' lowered expectations for certain students are all big factors that affect one's performance in school and, as a result, opportunities for higher education.

The other issue (that some people find irrelevant) is the inherent prejudice that is behind all of the above inequailities. As I've stated in earlier threads, I know from experience how distracting overt racism from peers can be in a school setting. In an atmosphere of hatred, sometimes it's difficult to focus in class. It's discouraging when teachers imply that you don't have what it takes to go to a good college, or when you are automatically placed in low level classes, even though you've earned As in honors classes in previous years.

In addition, there is still a tie between race and class that stems from history. History cannot be ignored. It can't be erased and so, it's influence can last a long time. For example, in my hometown, there are some black families living in shacks with no plumbing a mile away from the county's largest country club (incidentally named after the confederate states 🙄 ). Those black families are descendents of slaves. Now, slavery did end over 100 years ago, but in my county, Jim Crow laws, discriminatory housing laws, and school segregation did not end until the late 1960s. The adults living in those one-room shacks were alive at that point. Keep in mind that in the scheme of history, government-supported discrimination was not so long ago. I think it is in our nation's best interest to provide support for its citizens who were personally affected by such discrimination. We need better schools in low-income areas, we need more programs encouraging minority students to excel (b/ it's true -- there is an anti-intellectual movement in some black communities), we need to do something about the mess America got itself into and now is trying to ignore.

Self-motivation is very important, but not everyone is raised to believe that they have the capacity to excel. When my mother was young, she was basically told to be a housewife b/c she was a woman; I'm thankful for programs that support women in science. No one seems to have a problem with that b/c they realize that women were historically treated as second class citizens.

Maybe AA is flawed, but I'd rather have a flawed system than nothing at all.

 

[Thundrstorm]

Sorry if I got off on a tangent. My basic solution is this: fix the public schools. 🙂

 

[Ernham]

Originally posted by Thundrstorm
Sorry if I got off on a tangent. My basic solution is this: fix the public schools. 🙂

Wow. I think you are right. I feel dumber having just read that crybaby crap.

 

[Thundrstorm]

Originally posted by Ernham
Wow. I think you are right. I feel dumber having just read that crybaby crap.

what crybaby crap? my original post? 😕

 

[Ernham]

Originally posted by Thundrstorm
what crybaby crap? my original post? 😕

Just about anything you write regarding racism is crap, considering the fact you have a choice racial epithet right in your "location." You must be quite a racist if it is even oozing out of you when offering something as innocent as locale.

 

[Thundrstorm]

Originally posted by Ernham
Just about anything you write regarding racism is crap, considering the fact you have a choice racial epithet right in your "location." You must be quite a racist if it is even oozing out of you when offering something as innocent as locale.

I'm not a racist. If you're implying that I hate white people b/c I say "redneck," you're wrong. I'm half white.

I don't consider redneck a racial slur, but I'm sorry if it offends you. I'm just poking fun at my hometown -- which I affectionately call Hicktown, USA. If you grew up there, you'd probably make fun of it too.

 

[Ernham]

Originally posted by Thundrstorm
I'm not a racist. If you're implying that I hate white people b/c I say "redneck," you're wrong. I'm half white.

I don't consider redneck a racial slur, but I'm sorry if it offends you. I'm just poking fun at my hometown -- which I affectionately call Hicktown, USA. If you grew up there, you'd probably make fun of it too.

Doh! someone caught ya! Silly hypocrite. Oh, I don't consider ****** racist, since it really only means "an ignorant person." Let me go place that in my sig and preach on "racism." You are a joke, ****storm.

 

[Thundrstorm]

Originally posted by Ernham
Doh! someone caught ya! Silly hypocrite. Oh, I don't consider ****** racist, since it really only means "an ignorant person." Let me go place that in my sig and preach on "racism." You are a joke, ****storm.

There's no reason for name calling. People in my town honestly say things like, "this is a redneck town; we like it that way." (that's a direct newspaper quote). I find it pretty funny, considering your previous posts, that you would call me racist.

I certainly am not, not that I need to convince you of that.

You have a nice day. 🙂

 

[Cerberus]

Originally posted by Ernham
Doh! someone caught ya! Silly hypocrite. Oh, I don't consider ****** racist, since it really only means "an ignorant person." Let me go place that in my sig and preach on "racism." You are a joke, ****storm.

no one even takes your racist ass seriously - do humanity a favor and (to borrow one from Tein VI)...

 

[Ernham]

Originally posted by Cerberus
no one even takes your racist ass seriously - do humanity a favor and (to borrow one from Tein VI)...

Ahhh, I'm a racist. For? Pointing out racist doctrine? Pointing out racists "locations." Pfft. Ok, knuckle-dragger. Why don't you do yourself a favor and put my "racist" ass on ignore. Much too difficult to figure out with 70 IQ, huh?

 

[DarkChild]

cannont find the report to moderator button fast enough 🙄

 

[Raptor]

Even if AA is nullified, there will still be discrimination, prejudice, and racism in non school settings and school settings. There will still be whining rich white kids blaming URM for taking their place if they don't get accepted into the programs of their liking. URM will still have to prove to thier peers and their non-urm peers will feel that they got the job/school because of thier skin color. Its a cycle that isn't going to end in our generation and probably our kids generation. 🙁

 

[geneman]

It seems that the one area of agreement between most of us is that primary educational opportunities (retaining higher quality teachers, creating achievement-oriented after-school programs, subsidizing test prep, etc.) in certain areas need to be improved.

As AA is such a significant program, there will need to be an equally significant investment (i.e., tens of billions per year) towards these ends. The majority of Americans support efforts like the $15 billion grant towards helping Africa or AIDS programs throughout the world. A little ingenuity will go a long way towards reforming a major problem in our own backyard. I wouldn't call a half trillion dollar investment on a group of needed children "nothing at all", Thundrstorm, would you?

Thundrstorm: "It's discouraging when teachers imply that you don't have what it takes to go to a good college, or when you are automatically placed in low level classes, even though you've earned As in honors classes in previous years."

There is a very distinct difference between the first and second scenarios. The latter is an explicit form of discrimination. If this happened to you, a simple trip to the principal's office could have recitified this. (If he denied you, Al Sharpton would've been on his tail faster than you can say NAACP).

The former scenario may be discouraging, but a teacher's implication does not force a student to *not study*. Instead, this would be a classic example of differences in individual character. Some people buckle under this kind of pressure, others thrive. As someone who has grown up "in an atmosphere of hatred", you obviously have succeeded in the face of adversity and should know first-hand that low expectations alone does not cause poor academic performance.

Raptor: "There will still be whining rich white kids blaming URM for taking their place if they don't get accepted into the programs of their liking. URM will still have to prove to thier peers and their non-urm peers will feel that they got the job/school because of thier skin color. " Right now, the American public is sympathetic to these "whining rich white kids" because their complaints are rooted in reality. After AA is nullified, they can still complain, but the vast majority of the public will not take them seriously.