ABC News: Tulsa Shooter Battled Chronic Back Pain

[Orin]

Does anyone think the patient selection here was less than optimal? I'm debating adding a section on gun ownership/views into my intake before I put a pump in.

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[hyperalgesia]

Does anyone think the patient selection here was less than optimal? I'm debating adding a section on gun ownership/views into my intake before I put a pump in.

I think it would be much higher yield to determine if the person has impulsive, anger management issues with a h/o violence.

 

[Agast]

Does anyone think the patient selection here was less than optimal? I'm debating adding a section on gun ownership/views into my intake before I put a pump in.

One of my spine surgeons had a patient who was wandering around downstairs offering $50 to anyone who would be pee in the utox cup for her. He found out about this and STILL offered to operate on her

 

[gaseous_clay]

and more importantly no psych eval prior to surgery for pain.

Some insurances and WC plans are now starting to require this for elective fusions in certain states.

 

[gaseous_clay]

We live in an instant gratification society that cannot tolerate pain or any distress

Or physical therapy

 

[gaseous_clay]

I used to practice in Tulsa and worked with Dr. Phillips a few times. He was a gem of human and will be sorely missed in the community. I just hope surgeons will be less eager to fuse at the drop of hat going forward.

 

[RoloTomassi]

Some insurances and WC plans are now starting to require this for elective fusions in certain states.

Seems like a waste of time and resources. I've never had an SCS candidate fail a psych eval. And if I wanted to trial a bat**** crazy patient, I'm sure I can find a psych who will say yes.

 

[Ferrismonk]

Does anyone think the patient selection here was less than optimal? I'm debating adding a section on gun ownership/views into my intake before I put a pump in.

If you're actually still putting opiate pumps in chronic non-cancer pain, you should have a very long intake.

I don't think the paraplegic baclofen pump patient or the end-of-life cancer pain patients are the usual mass shooter demographic.

 

[callmeanesthesia]

If you're actually still putting opiate pumps in chronic non-cancer pain, you should have a very long intake.

I don't think the paraplegic baclofen pump patient or the end-of-life cancer pain patients are the usual mass shooter demographic.

No but their overprotective husbands are.

 

[lobelsteve]

If you're actually still putting opiate pumps in chronic non-cancer pain, you should have a very long intake.

I don't think the paraplegic baclofen pump patient or the end-of-life cancer pain patients are the usual mass shooter demographic.

If you're actually still putting opiate pumps in chronic non-cancer pain, you should have a very long intake.

I don't think the paraplegic baclofen pump patient or the end-of-life cancer pain patients are the usual mass shooter demographic.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

censorship is not a good thing...

but neither is outright lying and complete fabrication and using social media to encourage psychologically vulnerable people to take deadly action. in these cases, moderation of such content may be a necessary "evil" to prevent worse evil.


speaking of which.....

those who are against moderation of right wing controversies have no grounds to stand on if they are concurrently forcing schools to change curriculum (which do not contain CRT), stop gender identity discussions, and ban books.

... except that my tax dollars are paying for those schools my kids attend so I have a say, sorry.

Better to give right wing nut jobs a voice. When people feel like they have a voice they speak. When they don't, who knows what they're capable of. It's not like those feelings disappear.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

Are you keeping it in your white coat pocket, scrub pants or on your hip?

Best would be sub compact 9mm in a concealed holster with the scrub top over it. Other thoughts?

I'm personally not carrying to work. I wouldn't be comfortable enough in that situation to draw it and use it. Counting that my hands don't let me down.

 

[gaseous_clay]

Seems like a waste of time and resources. I've never had an SCS candidate fail a psych eval. And if I wanted to trial a bat**** crazy patient, I'm sure I can find a psych who will say yes.

That’s exactly what it is supposed to be, a hurdle put in place by insurance companies to make it harder to obtain approval just like peer-to-peers, letters of medical necessity, etc.

 

[gaseous_clay]

... except that my tax dollars are paying for those schools my kids attend so I have a say, sorry.

Better to give right wing nut jobs a voice. When people feel like they have a voice they speak. When they don't, who knows what they're capable of. It's not like those feelings disappear.

The feelings don’t disappear, but I don’t think people resort to mass shooting because of perceived censorship of their views on social media.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

The feelings don’t disappear, but I don’t think people resort to mass shooting because of perceived censorship of their views on social media.

Not sure. I think people can get pretty pissed off if they feel they can't express themselves. All you would do is push people underground where they would find each other. You can't censor the entire internet. I'd much rather prefer for everything to be out in the open.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

Agree with energy independence. Agree with your statement about Iran. Disagree with all else. I am qualified to give an accurate opinion on this as I'm probably the only one that has extensively lived in that part of the world. Free state of Israel is an oxymoron. They stole land from Palestinians. Prior to the first world war there was no Israel. Even according to united nations Israel has more land than they should. Perhaps Europe Germany etc should give back the land they took away from all those innocent Jewish people that died etc. So as a direct result of this there have been a generation of people who now hate the west due to supporting apartheid. Very simple. Islamic terror is again a cia/mossad supported creation and funding aka bin laden etc such as ISIS that is a convenient villain to allow USA to continue it's meddling in the world.
Most average Joe in that part of the world has no hatred of America. They just wanna be left alone and live a simple life.
Prior to all these wars, I was smiled at and hugged for being an American.
Now, not so much.

Once again, America needs to fix our economy. Stop fighting other people's war, help make America the land it once was.

Who was there first is irrelevant and only applies to modern-day thinking. For much of history, groups of people used to take land by force. Women were raped, men were killed, and the losers were taken into slavery. Whichever group was stronger was the group that then "owned the land." Every country has pretty much been created at the edge of a sword or by bullets and pretty much everyone can trace their ancestors to having been enslaved as well as having been the enslavers at one point or another.

The first people there anyway were probably the Canaanites who are probably most closely related to the modern-day Lebanese people. The ancient Israelites then committed genocide on these people as they were directed to do so by god, at least according to the old testament.

Most modern-day Israelis come from Arab lands and do not have European (Ashkenazi) backgrounds but I imagine you're aware of this since you've lived there for so long. Why should European Germany give their land to Sephardic Jews? Why not have Arab countries give the land back, along with everything else "stolen" from them? Jews were in so-called "Muslim lands" well before Islam came around. Do you see how complicated this can become?

Suggesting one group of people pick up voluntarily and leave an area they've been living in for generations is naive at best. A better solution may be to just accept that history can be argued back and forth but people are where they are and no one is leaving or going back to wherever. The main issue with this area, IMO, is that one group is not accepting of the other group's existence. Until that's resolved, you cannot expect peace.

 

[SSdoc33]

for a frame of reference, israel is about the size of new jersey, and 2/3 of that is uninhabitable desert. its not like there is a lot of land to "give back". but you know who does have a lot of land? egypt. libya. syria. jordan. saudi arabia. iraq. iran. turkey. algeria.

most israelis are packed into a 1 bedroom condo with 4-5 people in it

im not sure going into the arab-israeli conflict is a good idea, b/c we could dedicate 50 pages to it. however, your initial position is jaded, and you clearly have an axe to grind.

 

[Baron Samedi]

Those who support giving back land to Israel -- would you support giving back land to Native Americans?

 

[Pain Applicant1]

im not sure going into the arab-israeli conflict is a good idea, b/c we could dedicate 50 pages to it.

Too late, lid has already been open. Besides, that's what makes things fun around here.

Those who support giving back land to Israel -- would you support giving back land to Native Americans?

Confused by what you're asking? Do you mean giving back land to the Palestinians? What land is Israel asking to be given back? Do you mean back in the 1940s with the UN partition?

They stole land from Palestinians. Prior to the first world war there was no Israel. Even according to united nations Israel has more land than they should. Perhaps Europe Germany etc should give back the land they took away from all those innocent Jewish people that died etc. So as a direct result of this there have been a generation of people who now hate the west due to supporting apartheid.

Other topics for controversial conversation
1. Prior to WW 1, there was no Israel. You could also say prior to WW2, but prior to these wars, there were no Palestinians, as known today, either. Palestine only referred to the land area and Palestinians represented anyone who lived there. For instance, the Jerusalem Post used to be called the Palestinian Post and one of the first Jewish soccer teams in the area was called the Palestinian Soccer Team or something along those lines. The area is named after the Philistines who were not Muslim nor Jewish. Yasser Arafat changed that.
2. If the UN partition was initially abided by the Arab population at the time, we probably wouldn't be in our current situation. They didn't and attacked early Israel. Victory at wars is why Israel kept gaining in size. Is that considered stolen? What country hasn't been built that way?
3. On another note, why is the term Apartheid only used against western nations? How many churches are in Saudi Arabia as just one example? How many non-Saudis sit on their governing bodies? How about Japan? I don't see too much pressure on Japan to diversify?

What do you guys think?

 

[mid|ine]

I found this to be an informed and informative artice:

How to Write Meaningful Assault Weapons Legislation – Zdziarski

 

[Baron Samedi]

Confused by what you're asking? Do you mean giving back land to the Palestinians? What land is Israel asking to be given back? Do you mean back in the 1940s with the UN partition?

Typically I see the argument made in regards to Jerusalem.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

Typically I see the argument made in regards to Jerusalem.

Still confused, sorry. At this point, Israel currently owns/controls/occupies/whatever verb you believe in the entire city of Jerusalem, including east Jerusalem which is mostly made up of Palestinians.

 

[SSdoc33]

israel should stop building settlements in the west bank

palestinians should stop using their kids as human shields

israelis as certainly not blame free but "no such thing as islamic terrorism"? excuse me?

 

[Baron Samedi]

Still confused, sorry. At this point, Israel currently owns/controls/occupies/whatever verb you believe in the entire city of Jerusalem, including east Jerusalem which is mostly made up of Palestinians.

Ah sorry, I am sure my wording is awkward because, to be honest, it's not a topic I am following very closely. I will try again.

I see folks more involved often use the argument that X group is entitled to Y land because they were there historically and have significant cultural and religious connections to the land.

My poorly worded point was that we have a group of people within our own borders who were similarly displaced victims of genocide who have significant cultural and religious connections here in America, but its not discussed on nearly the same scale that Israel is.

 

[pmrmd]

israel should stop building settlements in the west bank

palestinians should stop using their kids as human shields

israelis as certainly not blame free but "no such thing as islamic terrorism"? excuse me?

I thought all was well when the Palestinians were given Gaza?

 

[SSdoc33]

I thought all was well when the Palestinians were given Gaza?

gaza is an absolute nightmare. funny that hamas isnt good at governing. right up there with taliban and the gvt of el salvador.

gaza is basically one gigantic jail cell

 

[SSdoc33]

Ah sorry, I am sure my wording is awkward because, to be honest, it's not a topic I am following very closely. I will try again.

I see folks more involved often use the argument that X group is entitled to Y land because they were there historically and have significant cultural and religious connections to the land.

My poorly worded point was that we have a group of people within our own borders who were similarly displaced victims of genocide who have significant cultural and religious connections here in America, but its not discussed on nearly the same scale that Israel is.

native americans moved around like bedouin. romed the land and went where the food was. they lived with the land, not on it.

i see what you are saying, but this is one reason (among many) why reservations never worked

 

[Pain Applicant1]

Ah sorry, I am sure my wording is awkward because, to be honest, it's not a topic I am following very closely. I will try again.

I see folks more involved often use the argument that X group is entitled to Y land because they were there historically and have significant cultural and religious connections to the land.

My poorly worded point was that we have a group of people within our own borders who were similarly displaced victims of genocide who have significant cultural and religious connections here in America, but its not discussed on nearly the same scale that Israel is.

I think your argument would more likely apply to the Palestinians than the Israelis. Something along the lines of should people in America criticize Israel for not giving land back to the Palestinians when they themselves are sitting on land that was forcibly taken from the Native Americans?

FWIW, Israel has given massive amounts of land back (think the entire Sinai Penisula) which helped lead to peace with Egypt. When land was given to the Palestinians, peace, unfortunately, was not given in return. What was given was more suicide bombings and deaths. I clearly remember this during my med school.

Either way, the bottom line is that no one really owns land as land cannot really be owned. I own a forest but how can anyone truly own a forest. Makes no sense. People will typically support and advocate for what's in their and their tribes' best interests. There really is no right or wrong.

What does it mean to own land anyway? If you and your group of people erect a fence around a fertile area and produce food for your group is it now your land? What if my group of people lives next door in an infertile area? What if we suffer a famine? You better believe we're coming after your land because I want to survive just like you do. I don't care if you think you own the land. My children need to eat just like yours do.

 

[buddababa]

Who was there first is irrelevant and only applies to modern-day thinking. For much of history, groups of people used to take land by force. Women were raped, men were killed, and the losers were taken into slavery. Whichever group was stronger was the group that then "owned the land." Every country has pretty much been created at the edge of a sword or by bullets and pretty much everyone can trace their ancestors to having been enslaved as well as having been the enslavers at one point or another.

The first people there anyway were probably the Canaanites who are probably most closely related to the modern-day Lebanese people. The ancient Israelites then committed genocide on these people as they were directed to do so by god, at least according to the old testament.

Most modern-day Israelis come from Arab lands and do not have European (Ashkenazi) backgrounds but I imagine you're aware of this since you've lived there for so long. Why should European Germany give their land to Sephardic Jews? Why not have Arab countries give the land back, along with everything else "stolen" from them? Jews were in so-called "Muslim lands" well before Islam came around. Do you see how complicated this can become?

Suggesting one group of people pick up voluntarily and leave an area they've been living in for generations is naive at best. A better solution may be to just accept that history can be argued back and forth but people are where they are and no one is leaving or going back to wherever. The main issue with this area, IMO, is that one group is not accepting of the other group's existence. Until that's resolved, you cannot expect peace.

I would love to have a conversation with you in person one day. Clinic is getting in my way of responding with the respect it deserves.

 

[SSdoc33]

I think your argument would more likely apply to the Palestinians than the Israelis. Something along the lines of should people in America criticize Israel for not giving land back to the Palestinians when they themselves are sitting on land that was forcibly taken from the Native Americans?

FWIW, Israel has given massive amounts of land back (think the entire Sinai Penisula) which helped lead to peace with Egypt. When land was given to the Palestinians, peace, unfortunately, was not given in return. What was given was more suicide bombings and deaths. I clearly remember this during my med school.

Either way, the bottom line is that no one really owns land as land cannot really be owned. I own a forest but how can anyone truly own a forest. Makes no sense. People will typically support and advocate for what's in their and their tribes' best interests. There really is no right or wrong.

What does it mean to own land anyway? If you and your group of people erect a fence around a fertile area and produce food for your group is it now your land? What if my group of people lives next door in an infertile area? What if we suffer a famine? You better believe we're coming after your land because I want to survive just like you do. I don't care if you think you own the land. My children need to eat just like yours do.

we are talking about a a decrepit old wall and some random rock. not exactly crucial for nourishment.....

the arab isreali conslict isnt about the land, its about which god you worship. no different than the crusades. israeli culture, government, politics, economics, etc more align with "western" values so america supports israel.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

we are talking about a a decrepit old wall and some random rock. not exactly crucial for nourishment.....

the arab isreali conslict isnt about the land, its about which god you worship. no different than the crusades. israeli culture, government, politics, economics, etc more align with "western" values so america supports israel.

Lol! I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

I would love to have a conversation with you in person one day. Clinic is getting in my way of responding with the respect it deserves.

I appreciate that but I don't really talk about things like that so much. Nowadays, I'm mostly obsessed with agriculture and now with irrigation. Looking at building a ram pump from my stream. It's a pretty amazing engineering marvel and it's unbelievable that someone was able to figure this out a few hundred years ago. Anyone in here with any experience in this?

In here, I like to kill time for the exact same reason you mentioned, the clinic. I don't want to say it's boring seeing pts but I guess, well, it's kind of boring seeing pts, lol. I noticed I'm mostly active in here on Monday and then my activity tapers as the week moves on.

 

[buddababa]

I appreciate that but I don't really talk about things like that so much. Nowadays, I'm mostly obsessed with agriculture and now with irrigation. Looking at building a ram pump from my stream. It's a pretty amazing engineering marvel and it's unbelievable that someone was able to figure this out a few hundred years ago. Anyone in here with any experience in this?

In here, I like to kill time for the exact same reason you mentioned, the clinic. I don't want to say it's boring seeing pts but I guess, well, it's kind of boring seeing pts, lol. I noticed I'm mostly active in here on Monday and then my activity tapers as the week moves on.

I just came back from vacation, so I have stacks of papers I have to get through. I love the irrigation aspect of farming and agriculture and always read about how the people 100s of years ago did, especially civilization like the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians etc. Wish I could do something like that, however with my bad back, I can barely lift a gallon of milk, let alone farm.

 

[SSdoc33]

I just came back from vacation, so I have stacks of papers I have to get through. I love the irrigation aspect of farming and agriculture and always read about how the people 100s of years ago did, especially civilization like the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians etc. Wish I could do something like that, however with my bad back, I can barely lift a gallon of milk, let alone farm.

you really should see an expert about your back.....

 

[Ducttape]

Seems like a waste of time and resources. I've never had an SCS candidate fail a psych eval. And if I wanted to trial a bat**** crazy patient, I'm sure I can find a psych who will say yes.

i send them to a pain psychologist with wording suggesting i want them to refuse, and i have been pretty successful with that method.

---

To clarify, are you referring to specific curriculum that does not contain CRT, or are you denying that CRT has been embedded into curriculum in some school districts.

school curriculum does not contain CRT. CRT is a theoretical construct developed as a scientific theory, not clinical practice.

---

... except that my tax dollars are paying for those schools my kids attend so I have a say, sorry.

Better to give right wing nut jobs a voice. When people feel like they have a voice they speak. When they don't, who knows what they're capable of. It's not like those feelings disappear.

then you are presupposing that you have more knowledge than teachers and educators who spend their careers learning on such issues. in fact, im pretty sure 99% of those touting the evils of CRT dont actually know what it represents.


what do you say to patients who come in to the office demanding percs because they know their bodies better than you do, or you dont have chronic pain so you dont know chronic pain, or they are experts in fibromalala because they watched a tiktok?


"yeah, you're right, even though i spent 10+ years of my life studying medicine, and pain, you are right. heres your percs."
"wait, i only wrote for 60, do you need more? 180? the 15s, right? is that how much you know your body needs? okay."

 

[Baron Samedi]

Fibromalala may be my new favorite diagnosis.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

then you are presupposing that you have more knowledge than teachers and educators who spend their careers learning on such issues. in fact, im pretty sure 99% of those touting the evils of CRT dont actually know what it represents.


what do you say to patients who come in to the office demanding percs because they know their bodies better than you do, or you dont have chronic pain so you dont know chronic pain, or they are experts in fibromalala because they watched a tiktok?


"yeah, you're right, even though i spent 10+ years of my life studying medicine, and pain, you are right. heres your percs."
"wait, i only wrote for 60, do you need more? 180? the 15s, right? is that how much you know your body needs? okay."

As if the comparison were that straightforward. I'm not trying to tell the teachers HOW to teach but I pay for the schools and my kids must attend the school so I have a say in what's taught. If I don't like what I read on the internet I can choose to simply not read it. Not the case in the schools since my kids must attend and/or fulfill the required curriculum.

Personally, I prefer reading things I don't agree with. I always like feeling that level of discomfort and anxiety with nearly all things. That's how I learn to expand my comfort zone. I always like biting off more than I can chew since I have to figure a way out of it.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

I just came back from vacation, so I have stacks of papers I have to get through. I love the irrigation aspect of farming and agriculture and always read about how the people 100s of years ago did, especially civilization like the ancient Egyptians, Babylonians etc. Wish I could do something like that, however with my bad back, I can barely lift a gallon of milk, let alone farm.

If you're local you're welcome to come by and hang out on my farm with me if you'd like. It's always nice to make a new friend.

I try to farm using as little as possible. I only use power tools if it's really impractical otherwise. I have a compact track loader but still do a lot by hand. I like the problems that come up as they force you to think and try to figure out solutions. It's a different way of dealing with issues and kind of cool to know that you're thinking the way other humans have thought since shortly after bipedalism began.

 

[Doctodd]

then you are presupposing that you have more knowledge than teachers and educators who spend their careers learning on such issues. in fact, im pretty sure 99% of those touting the evils of CRT dont actually know what it represents.

In my son’s case it was embedded in the lesson online, and the teacher had no idea it was there. Her response was the district forgot to check off the option….MEANING IT WAS THERE ORIGINALLY ON PURPOSE, but is dependent on the location.

 

[gaseous_clay]

Not sure. I think people can get pretty pissed off if they feel they can't express themselves. All you would do is push people underground where they would find each other. You can't censor the entire internet. I'd much rather prefer for everything to be out in the open.

This has already happened with 4chan/8chan.

 

[drusso]

This has already happened with 4chan/8chan.

4chan was the best...

 

[ragnathor]

Other topics for controversial conversation
1. Prior to WW 1, there was no Israel. You could also say prior to WW2, but prior to these wars, there were no Palestinians, as known today, either. Palestine only referred to the land area and Palestinians represented anyone who lived there. For instance, the Jerusalem Post used to be called the Palestinian Post and one of the first Jewish soccer teams in the area was called the Palestinian Soccer Team or something along those lines. The area is named after the Philistines who were not Muslim nor Jewish. Yasser Arafat changed that.
2. If the UN partition was initially abided by the Arab population at the time, we probably wouldn't be in our current situation. They didn't and attacked early Israel. Victory at wars is why Israel kept gaining in size. Is that considered stolen? What country hasn't been built that way?
3. On another note, why is the term Apartheid only used against western nations? How many churches are in Saudi Arabia as just one example? How many non-Saudis sit on their governing bodies? How about Japan? I don't see too much pressure on Japan to diversify?

What do you guys think?

1) Point 1 I agree with the first part but not the second about Yasser Arafat. Generally the modern day nation state started with British colonization after WW1 when the area became a British mandate. The majority were Arab Muslims with a sizeable Jewish minority (as there was in many Arab majority areas). Zionism and Jewish colonization began to change the demographic in the early 1900s.
2) This statement is lacking in context. By the time the UN resolution passed it was essentially moot. It gave roughly 2/3 of the territory to about 1/3 of the population as Israel. Israel and Haganah had premeditated plans for greater acquisition of territory and of course neighboring Arab states invaded. The current population (modern day Palestinians) had essentially been dismantled both leadership and militarily in the prior decade by the British.
3) I would call what Saudi Arabia does human rights violations. No doubt they are egregious. But this is a false comparison. Apartheid (in my non-technical definition) is large scale systemic discrimination and segregation of another group. Israel maintains travel restrictions on Palestinians. They are military occupiers, maintain taxing authority, control water, building permits, movement, etc. Palestinians have no path to Israeli citizenship despite having grown up surrounded by Israeli neighbors. Palestinians are subject to home demolitions, land seizures, and harassment from neighboring Israeli settlers. They have no recourse except through the Israeli judicial system which does about as much as you'd expect. These have been well documented by human rights organization both within and outside of Israel.

Here are 2 maps that demonstrate why this is occupation/apartheid:

Explainer: Israel, annexation and the West Bank

Key questions about Israel's plan to annex parts of the occupied West Bank answered.

www.bbc.com

https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5b4280778ffba43192e8420f/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/Entous-West-Bank-Settlements-Map.jpg

FWIW, Israel has given massive amounts of land back (think the entire Sinai Penisula) which helped lead to peace with Egypt. When land was given to the Palestinians, peace, unfortunately, was not given in return. What was given was more suicide bombings and deaths. I clearly remember this during my med school.

To your point earlier that whoever is stronger owns the land, Israel suffered significant losses in the 1973 war for the first time and this was one of the reasons to give the land back to Egypt - it was in the interest to make peace, not out of some innate charitable gesture. And this land was given to Egypt. I know many equate all Arabs with Palestinians but that is inaccurate. Given the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt did nothing for the economic prospects of Palestinians working in the West Bank.

The suicide bombings and deaths you heard about in med school were 20-30 years later and more directly related to settlement expansion and occupation and nothing to do with Sinai Peninsula. And for every suicide bomber killing Israeli civilians there are 10x Palestinian civilians who died from Israeli military raids/bombings.

The Human Cost Of The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Over The Past Decade [Infographic]

The Israeli military and Palestinian militants are trading airstrikes and rocket fire in a conflict that has killed thousands of people over the past decade.

www.forbes.com

the arab isreali conslict isnt about the land, its about which god you worship. no different than the crusades. israeli culture, government, politics, economics, etc more align with "western" values so america supports israel.

I disagree this is primarily a religious conflict. When you take away people's economic prospects, they become increasingly desperate and susceptible to extremism, etc. People in Gaza were born into and have lived their whole lives in squalor. They are told it is Israel's fault and are happy to place 100% of the blame there instead of Palestinian leadership corruption, etc. On the other side of the gulf you have the gulf states in extravagant wealth that truly don't care about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict except to appease their populace.

At the end of the day I think most Palestinians would care a lot less about if the country they live in is called Israel or Palestine than whether they can feed themselves and watch their children grow up to be successful. Plenty of Israeli Arabs are living just fine next to Jewish neighbors.

 

[ragnathor]

for a frame of reference, israel is about the size of new jersey, and 2/3 of that is uninhabitable desert. its not like there is a lot of land to "give back". but you know who does have a lot of land? egypt. libya. syria. jordan. saudi arabia. iraq. iran. turkey. algeria.

most israelis are packed into a 1 bedroom condo with 4-5 people in it

im not sure going into the arab-israeli conflict is a good idea, b/c we could dedicate 50 pages to it. however, your initial position is jaded, and you clearly have an axe to grind.

I probably should have read these posts in order instead of newest first.

I think a plan supporting resettlement of Palestinian refugees that are currently in Jordan/Lebanon to these or other countries with some financial incentive is a reasonable middle ground. No way to realistically expect this many people to come back to resettlet in Israel Palestine after 50+ years.

Those who support giving back land to Israel -- would you support giving back land to Native Americans?

To me the analogy is it's not realistic/appropriate to give back land others have lived in for some time now. Personally I am a proponent of a one state solution offering equal citizenship to all.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

1) Point 1 I agree with the first part but not the second about Yasser Arafat. Generally the modern day nation state started with British colonization after WW1 when the area became a British mandate. The majority were Arab Muslims with a sizeable Jewish minority (as there was in many Arab majority areas). Zionism and Jewish colonization began to change the demographic in the early 1900s.
2) This statement is lacking in context. By the time the UN resolution passed it was essentially moot. It gave roughly 2/3 of the territory to about 1/3 of the population as Israel. Israel and Haganah had premeditated plans for greater acquisition of territory and of course neighboring Arab states invaded. The current population (modern day Palestinians) had essentially been dismantled both leadership and militarily in the prior decade by the British.
3) I would call what Saudi Arabia does human rights violations. No doubt they are egregious. But this is a false comparison. Apartheid (in my non-technical definition) is large scale systemic discrimination and segregation of another group. Israel maintains travel restrictions on Palestinians. They are military occupiers, maintain taxing authority, control water, building permits, movement, etc. Palestinians have no path to Israeli citizenship despite having grown up surrounded by Israeli neighbors. Palestinians are subject to home demolitions, land seizures, and harassment from neighboring Israeli settlers. They have no recourse except through the Israeli judicial system which does about as much as you'd expect. These have been well documented by human rights organization both within and outside of Israel.

Here are 2 maps that demonstrate why this is occupation/apartheid:

Explainer: Israel, annexation and the West Bank

Key questions about Israel's plan to annex parts of the occupied West Bank answered.

www.bbc.com

https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5b4280778ffba43192e8420f/master/w_1600%2Cc_limit/Entous-West-Bank-Settlements-Map.jpg

To your point earlier that whoever is stronger owns the land, Israel suffered significant losses in the 1973 war for the first time and this was one of the reasons to give the land back to Egypt - it was in the interest to make peace, not out of some innate charitable gesture. And this land was given to Egypt. I know many equate all Arabs with Palestinians but that is inaccurate. Given the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt did nothing for the economic prospects of Palestinians working in the West Bank.

The suicide bombings and deaths you heard about in med school were 20-30 years later and more directly related to settlement expansion and occupation and nothing to do with Sinai Peninsula. And for every suicide bomber killing Israeli civilians there are 10x Palestinian civilians who died from Israeli military raids/bombings.

The Human Cost Of The Israeli-Palestinian Conflict Over The Past Decade [Infographic]

The Israeli military and Palestinian militants are trading airstrikes and rocket fire in a conflict that has killed thousands of people over the past decade.

www.forbes.com

I disagree this is primarily a religious conflict. When you take away people's economic prospects, they become increasingly desperate and susceptible to extremism, etc. People in Gaza were born into and have lived their whole lives in squalor. They are told it is Israel's fault and are happy to place 100% of the blame there instead of Palestinian leadership corruption, etc. On the other side of the gulf you have the gulf states in extravagant wealth that truly don't care about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict except to appease their populace.

At the end of the day I think most Palestinians would care a lot less about if the country they live in is called Israel or Palestine than whether they can feed themselves and watch their children grow up to be successful. Plenty of Israeli Arabs are living just fine next to Jewish neighbors.

You're conflating and/or misunderstanding what I said.

I'm referring to Arafat associating the local Arab population living in that area to be reflected as the true Palestinians. This was a PR move to essentially show the world that the Palestinians were the original inhabitants of the area since the area is named after them when in fact it was the opposite. Palestine is the Roman Latin interpretation of the word Philistines, who were a sea-faring people from biblical times.

Jewish people didn't initially forcibly colonize anything. They initially purchased the land from land owners through the Ottoman Empire who owned the land prior to the British. Do land owners not have the right to sell their land to who they wish? There was never a Palestinian state, currency, president, etc in the area and the goal of many of the Palestinians was to kill all of the Jewish inhabitants of the area. That's why the Grand Mufti aligned with Hitler during WW2. Both sides committed atrocities against each other and at first, the Arab states had the upper hand but history has an interesting way of working out. Obviously no longer the case.

I agree with the points you make about Israeli policies but it's important to take it one step further and ask why are things like home demolitions occurring and travel restrictions in place? I think you know the answer to this. I would hope my government would take whatever measures were necessary to protect my family if I lived in a similar situation to the one Israelis live in. Fortunately, you and I have the luxury of living in America and having no clue what it's like to have to worry about something like it. For some reason, I think if Mexico constantly lobbed missiles at our kindergartens the US military would probably respond with more severe measures than home demolitions.

Obviously, the Sinai was traded for peace. Why on earth would anyone think it would be a charitable gesture, especially after a war? My point is that Israel is willing to take the harsh measures needed to make peace.

No one is saying all Arabs are the same but nice try on that one. The Egyptian blockade on Gaza is probably worse for the Palestinians than the Israeli one. Interesting that this rarely gets brought up.

The suicide bombings were not in response to abusive behavior by settlers. It was in response to a perceived weakness by Israel. I clearly remember this. Sharon was the prime minister and the IDF forced out Jewish settlers and dismantled settlements. Sharon refrained from responding to suicide bombings in the interest of peace as he was asked to do so by the US. This just lead to more suicide bombings. They didn't stop until the military force was applied and the separation barrier was built.

If your comment about most Palestinians in Gaza primarily caring about feeding themselves and watching their children grow up to be successful was true they wouldn't have elected Hamas as their leadership. Would they send their children to the front lines and say how happy that their kids became martyrs? Would they hand out candy after a suicide bombing? Have you ever read the covenant of Hamas by any chance? They want Israel destroyed and the entire area to be Islamic. How can you make peace with an organization like this?

If the Palestinians laid their arms down and adopted peaceful measures, most of the world would probably support them and there would likely be a peaceful solution. If Israel laid their arms down do you think there would be peace or do you think it would be destroyed? You know the answer and this is the main crux of the problem.

My point regarding Apartheid is that the western world is held to different standards than the non-western world. In most of the world, minorities aren't given nearly the rights that they are granted in the western world. Are you going to tell me that if Palestine gets created for Palestinians, they're going to have Jewish inhabitants running for leadership positions and they'll freely build their places of worship?

Good conversation, let's keep this going.

 

[SSdoc33]

i think it is important to realize that arabs in Israel can vote. they have political leadership and a political party.

the biggest difference is that there are no arabs/palestinians in the army. this is a huge part of Israeli life. israel exists solely because it has a strong military. cant exactly let "the enemy" serve in your army.

also, if not for religion, then what is the difference between the sephardim and Palestinians? nothing. just a bunch of similiar-skinned people haggling about the price of an item, being way too loud, and complaining any chance they get (this is actually an endearing statement, btw)

the point about Palestinian poverty is a good one, but you cannot dismiss the importance of religion in this conversation. embedded in much of Islamic teaching is indeed martyrdom.

"

“When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”​

― Golda Meir, A Land of Our Own: An Oral Autobiography

 

[SSdoc33]

tell me more about your one-state solution. how would this work? and what about the military?

 

[SeniorWrangler]

This would be a great time for both sides to stand down. Palestinians could stop random knife attacks, Israelis could stop expanding settlements and demolishing houses.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

i think it is important to realize that arabs in Israel can vote. they have political leadership and a political party.

the biggest difference is that there are no arabs/palestinians in the army. this is a huge part of Israeli life. israel exists solely because it has a strong military. cant exactly let "the enemy" serve in your army.

also, if not for religion, then what is the difference between the sephardim and Palestinians? nothing. just a bunch of similiar-skinned people haggling about the price of an item, being way too loud, and complaining any chance they get (this is actually an endearing statement, btw)

the point about Palestinian poverty is a good one, but you cannot dismiss the importance of religion in this conversation. embedded in much of Islamic teaching is indeed martyrdom.

"

“When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”​

― Golda Meir, A Land of Our Own: An Oral Autobiography

Don't mean to and sorry to correct you but there are Arabs in the IDF. They're just not conscripted for obvious reasons. Check out the Gadsar unit documentary on the BBC. There may not be Palestinians as they're not citizens of the Israeli state but Israeli Arabs do serve. There are also Bedouin and Druze. There is also an Israeli Arab on the Supreme Court. Not sure how that happens in an apartheid state but what do I know.

I've read many books on the Jewish people and Israel. I find them to be an interesting and remarkable people.

I also appreciate Muslim countries very much. I'd love to travel to Iran and Iraq one day as they've had a massive impact on early civilization as did the Persian empire on the ancient world.

 

[SSdoc33]

Don't mean to and sorry to correct you but there are Arabs in the IDF. They're just not conscripted for obvious reasons. Check out the Gadsar unit documentary on the BBC. There may not be Palestinians as they're not citizens of the Israeli state but Israeli Arabs do serve. There are also Bedouin and Druze. There is also an Israeli Arab on the Supreme Court. Not sure how that happens in an apartheid state but what do I know.

I've read many books on the Jewish people and Israel. I find them to be an interesting and remarkable people.

I also appreciate Muslim countries very much. I'd love to travel to Iran and Iraq one day as they've had a massive impact on early civilization as did the Persian empire on the ancient world.

i realize that there are a a smattering in the IDF. druze don't count. not sure what the druze are, but nobody seems to be pissed off at them, so they must be doing something right. they also make that good thin bread on that hot dome thingy

Exemption from military service in Israel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Arab citizens of Israel (who make up a little under one-fifth of the country's population) are also exempted from military service; this exemption does not originate via Israeli statutory law, but rather is based on IDF Human Resource Department guidelines, issued under the IDF's discretionary powers pursuant to the law.[6] As a result, Arab Muslims, Arab Christians, and Bedouins are not conscripted,[6] although small numbers of each community voluntarily join the IDF.[7][8] By contrast, members of Israel's small Druze and Circassian communities are conscripted.[6]"

 

[ragnathor]

I'll try to tackle this piece by piece.

You're conflating and/or misunderstanding what I said.

I'm referring to Arafat associating the local Arab population living in that area to be reflected as the true Palestinians. This was a PR move to essentially show the world that the Palestinians were the original inhabitants of the area since the area is named after them when in fact it was the opposite. Palestine is the Roman Latin interpretation of the word Philistines, who were a sea-faring people from biblical times.

Jewish people didn't initially forcibly colonize anything. They initially purchased the land from land owners through the Ottoman Empire who owned the land prior to the British. Do land owners not have the right to sell their land to who they wish? There was never a Palestinian state, currency, president, etc in the area and the goal of many of the Palestinians was to kill all of the Jewish inhabitants of the area. That's why the Grand Mufti aligned with Hitler during WW2. Both sides committed atrocities against each other and at first, the Arab states had the upper hand but history has an interesting way of working out. Obviously no longer the case.

Arabs in the area started referring to themselves as Palestinians before Yaser Arafat. This was an outshoot from the British mandate name - this is my point. No doubt Arafat capitalized on this with some propaganda. Various Israeli leaders (Golda Meir) have done likewise claiming 'Palestinians' did not exist to delegitimize their claim and that they have true Biblical origins, etc. Regardless, there was an Arab majority in the first half of the 1900s with a Jewish minority that was increasing with Zionism. I don't really think the history should influence modern day claims we are generations past, but I do think it is useful if the two sides are ever to come together to an understanding and respect of one another.

To say Jewish people didn't forcibly colonize anything is false. In the 1948 war 700,000 Palestinians were forcibly expelled from their homes and the newly created Israel had premeditated ambitions for expansion beyond the 1948 UN mandate and subsequent wars beyond. Since 1967 Israel has continued settlement expansion in Palestinian territory (West Bank) despite UN and international opposition. This continues to the present day.

I agree with the points you make about Israeli policies but it's important to take it one step further and ask why are things like home demolitions occurring and travel restrictions in place? I think you know the answer to this. I would hope my government would take whatever measures were necessary to protect my family if I lived in a similar situation to the one Israelis live in. Fortunately, you and I have the luxury of living in America and having no clue what it's like to have to worry about something like it. For some reason, I think if Mexico constantly lobbed missiles at our kindergartens the US military would probably respond with more severe measures than home demolitions.

Israeli policy is to continue settlement expansion and acquisition of Palestinian territory. Even in times of relative peace such as Oslo accords Israel has only briefly paused settlement expansion. I am not justifying Palestinian attacks, but a crushing occupation is a major cause of it.

Your analogy with Mexico is a false comparison. A more accurate comparison is if Russia occupied the US, stopped Americans and their children on the way to school/work, detained them if they didn't have ID, prevented you from building a new home or traveling to other cities, etc. Perhaps we wouldn't be surprised if there were some desperate people who respond with random acts of violence.

Obviously, the Sinai was traded for peace. Why on earth would anyone think it would be a charitable gesture, especially after a war? My point is that Israel is willing to take the harsh measures needed to make peace.

No one is saying all Arabs are the same but nice try on that one. The Egyptian blockade on Gaza is probably worse for the Palestinians than the Israeli one. Interesting that this rarely gets brought up.

The suicide bombings were not in response to abusive behavior by settlers. It was in response to a perceived weakness by Israel. I clearly remember this. Sharon was the prime minister and the IDF forced out Jewish settlers and dismantled settlements. Sharon refrained from responding to suicide bombings in the interest of peace as he was asked to do so by the US. This just lead to more suicide bombings. They didn't stop until the military force was applied and the separation barrier was built.

Going back I believe I misread your statement thinking you were linking Sinai Peninsula to the current Israeli-Palestinian issues. I did not mean to imply you are equating Palestinians with all Arabs and apologize if I did so. I do see this as a common mistake to think interests of Egypt/Jordan/Lebanon are the same as Palestinians (not what you wrote).

Agree the Egyptian blockade is crushing as well. It is in the interests of the Egyptian dictatorship to maintain its distance from the Palestinians.

The paragraph about suicide bombings is inaccurate. Sharon's disengagement from Gaza was strategic. 8,000 settlers and the military controlled about 30% of Gaza. Palestinian population in this area is about 1.5 million. Why were the settlements placed their in the first place? Sharon and leadership were worried about the demographics. They wanted to disentangle Israeli settlers from Palestinian population in order not to risk a Jewish majority in any future settlement. Israel dismantled Gaza settlements in 2005. The bombings have come in waves but the majority were before 2005 with many in the time of the Intifidah.

If your comment about most Palestinians in Gaza primarily caring about feeding themselves and watching their children grow up to be successful was true they wouldn't have elected Hamas as their leadership. Would they send their children to the front lines and say how happy that their kids became martyrs? Would they hand out candy after a suicide bombing? Have you ever read the covenant of Hamas by any chance? They want Israel destroyed and the entire area to be Islamic. How can you make peace with an organization like this?

If the Palestinians laid their arms down and adopted peaceful measures, most of the world would probably support them and there would likely be a peaceful solution. If Israel laid their arms down do you think there would be peace or do you think it would be destroyed? You know the answer and this is the main crux of the problem.

My point regarding Apartheid is that the western world is held to different standards than the non-western world. In most of the world, minorities aren't given nearly the rights that they are granted in the western world. Are you going to tell me that if Palestine gets created for Palestinians, they're going to have Jewish inhabitants running for leadership positions and they'll freely build their places of worship?

Hamas was elected in 2006. The choice were Hamas (extremist) and PA/Fatah (corrupt). The latter had been in power for a decade + with basically no progress or prospects for peace. PA was very corrupt pilfering or . Hamas, while extreme, was providing significant social services. When picking from two terrible choice they voted for the one they saw as more hopeful at the time and are suffering the consequences now (isolation, blockade, poverty). I am not justifying their actions but when you vote for someone once it doesn't mean you support every ideological believe they have. Note there has not been another election since 2006 - not hard to wonder why.

What do you mean "if the Palestinians laid their arms down"? Isn't this what happend with the Oslo Accords? Take a look at the timeline of maps. This consolidated Israel's occupation and they continued settlement expansion. Any supposed offers of peace were breaking up would-be Palestine into multiple discontigous parts - a state in name only.

No doubt the celebration of bombings, martydom, etc is shameful. I highly doubt the majority of Palestinians dance to this. There are Israeli settlers likewise celebrating bombings of Palestinians homes and beatings of children. Extremist Israeli groups support forced expulsion of Palestinians from the West bank. I don't equate these with the sentiment of Israeli Jews overall.

Israel touts itself as a democracy so it gets critiqued as such. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is probably the most heavily scrutinized conflict on the globe. Part of this is I believe it is so long-standing (50+ years) but also the prominent role Israel plays in our politics and the sympathy of the Palestinian plight to those elsewhere in the Middle East in abroad. Saudi Arabia is an egregious human rights violator. It is not in our economic interest to critique them. Note I am stating why I think Israel is held to a different standard - not saying it is justified to do so.

Good conversation, let's keep this going.

Agreed!