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Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by GoLAClippers, Mar 7, 2007.
Hi, I was wondering if DOs make as much as MDs
same discipline, same job, same pay.......
Short answer: yes.
Long answer: Insurance and government reimbursement will be same, because both MD and DO are legal equivalents. The pay variation is between specialty and location, not degree.
Whether or not a MD and DO within the same specialty, with similar offices on the same street make the same amount of money is anyone's best guess. I think it's most reasonable to think that they would earn the same, unless one had a superior reputation or a better personality.
It has been noted by others that DOs who specialize in OMT can significantly increase their financial bottom line, but I've seen no published data, just anecdotal stuff.
yes they do
Um the biggest difference in pay is not reputation or that other stuff though. It is really how many high billing procedures each does. I dont know how much OMT pays.. Maybe thats a difference. Truth is more people in MD schools enter higher paying fields (aka NOT Peds, FP and IM). As such I would GUESS MDs make more on avg but as mentioned same field +same pts + same work done = same pay
I was also wondering if DOs are hired as regularly as MDs in many big hospitals, or do they usually only get jobs in local clinics. Thanks
P.S. I am worried more about the salary and job opportunities than recognition, prestige, etc
should be interesting.. to hear this...
Good question. I've no idea.
I do know that it's regional. I'm in the Boston area and there are not a lot of DOs in the big Harvard affiliates. However, they are around.
Move to Philly, Jersey, etc. and you'll find more.
I usually check the staff pages on the hospital's website. That gives me a good sense.
Keep in mind:
DOs make up about 5% of physicians. We are the minority.
A lot of DOs are interested in primary care and will probably end up in community hospitals and local clinics. However, this is not the only option for DOs.
MD's make $17.95 less than DO's per hour.... I had to bite!
Your question is an extremely general one. According to the god's on Mount Olympus, DO's and MD's bring in roughly the same income in relation to their specialty. They are both doctors and if they both specialize in orthopedics, the brightest, doctor with the best bed side manner and reputation might make a little more than the other doctor. The money factor has to do with the person and the specialty not the MD or DO after his or her name. Since you asked a general question, I will respond generally...YES, they make the same.
Unfortunately, I don't have anything concrete to provide you with. This info is based on what I have gathered from reading several hundred posts dealing with the topic of MD vs DO.
Hope this helps.
I was assuming that the MD and DO were similar in training and practice size. To me it's reasonable to think that it's the nontangible issues that will make one more successful financially over another doc.
I completely agree that a doc who does a lot of procedures will earn a higher paycheck. So, if more MDs specialize than DOs, then it's reasonable to think that MDs as a group can earn more.
However, family medicine (which many DOs are attracted to) can do a lot of procedures, too.
I'm going to work on the assumption that the post is serious, and answer it accordingly.
I work(ed) in a hospital for a number of years, and we had several DO's on staff. It's a Trauma I hospital, so the opportunity for DO's definitely exists. One of the DO's is a general surgeon, and he is very well-respected on our staff. Most of the other DO's are internal medicine, but as you can see, that doesn't limit them to outpatient clinic work.
Also, Kaiser tends to hire DO's for internal medicine at their hospitals. As far as I'm aware, the Kaiser hospitals are not Trauma centers, but that affects only a very small percentage of us. But as far as work opportunities are concerned, yes, you can work in a hospital with all the priveleges afforded to MD's. Prestige/recognition can still be of some concern, but most of the staff doesn't seem to notice that our DO's are DO's, and just refer to them as doctors. Which they are.
To the OP -
PLEASE read the FAQ before posting questions of MD vs DO in this forum ... it would save a lot of time and save a lot of hassle.
search button for the win.
DO's MD's. they basically do the same thing.. esp in their specialties. i dont see why their salaries would differ.
As for your concern for hiring DO's.. . if you have good academic scores, good records, good background experience, I really don't see why you will have a difficult time looking for occupation @ any respected institution. As many in SDN will tell you.. its what you make of your future.. (cliche.. i know.)
You do know FP makes the least amount of money only ahead of Peds.
On average, students with <3.0 GPAs don't get into med schools...yet how many people on SDN do so... quite a few.
With that logic, there are quite a few FPs that can make upwards of 200k with high procedural load or own their practice.
However, most FPs now work in group practices that are often owned by hospital networks (as has been the trend for the last two decades...). Many are on fixed salaries which are closer to the average. With that, however, they get a controlled amount of hours and job security... IMHO, that is more important if you plan on spending a reasonable amount of time with family and friends.
Medicine may be my life's calling, but it still just a job and in the end I will always want to go home and spend time with my wife and children. IMO, the lack of respect for FPs and PCPs, in general, on SDN is not justified. The health care system NEEDS PCPs to function. These fields are not necessarily the dumping ground for those who couldn't get into more competitive residencies.
Wow I'm running on very little sleep...sorry for the ramble.
Painfully aware, my friend.
Still though, it seems to be what I'm interested in the most.
It's difficult to determine what FM docs make because the specialty allows so much flexibility and variablility. Someone working part-time in the city doing mostly referrals will not turn any heads, salary-wise. But someone who is setting up a practice doing a lot of procedures will make much, much more.
Some of these rural FM docs are doing stuff that only subspecialists or surgeons would do in a larger city, like Boston.
In my opinion, as the demand for FP goes up with fewer doctors and an increasing population, I think FP should make more eventually. Simple supply and demand. but we'll have to wait and see what happens....also, DO are becoming more and more well known throughout the US. in another 7-10 years, things will be MUCH MUCH better than things are even right now for DO's.....
I was told during an interview that the avg FP in the US in the first year out of Residency makes ~154K per year. So think about this, my wife is a pharmacist, makes ~90K and is paying back 140K in loans and we live very well (new cars, eat out lots, a new puppy). So i guess Im saying even with 200k in loans no physician is going to be 'poor'.
First year out of Residency? 154K?
That really, really warms my heart.
I haven't really researched the compensation aspects of this process, partly out of some noble cry of "money doesn't matter!" and partly because I was pretty sure it that the money takes care of itself.
But if someone just presents the information to me, I'll take it.
a big advice I would tell everyone is to learn how physicians are compensated ... it is very complex
for the most part, hospitals do not do the hiring ... Human Resources have no input in hiring or firing of physicians ... and hospitals are giant monsters who only care about money ... they don't care if you graduated from Harvard Medical School with triple board certification or if you graduated from a branch campus of Starbucks College of Osteopathic Medicine ... if you make the hospital money they will be happy ... if you make the hospital lose money, they will be very unhappy
Exactly how a physician gets compensated is quite complex and I have posted about this topic in the past ... I would recommend picking up a healthcare economics textbook ... it will be quite beneficial to understand how the system works
*it would also explain why certain specialties make more than other specialties and why certain specialties prefer to do only inpatient consult rather than do have patients on their service
**and to answer your question ... DOs can be found everywhere ... in major university hospitals, community hospitals, and clinics ... for the most part, the MD/DO distinction is nonexistent once you are done with your training
Someone told you wrong.
If that were the case, then I suspect a lot more people would go into family medicine.
What's a good source for finding average salary statistics? Salary.com was pretty accurate, but they recently stopped showing median salaries.
Its tough to find comprehensive salary information because of the wide range of practice setups for a given specialty.
Benefits packages, malpractice coverage, bonuses, ownership in a practice, hospital based, private practice, big group, small group, etc.
I know internists who make $90,000 and I know internists who make close to $300,000.
The best advice I can give is talk to friends who are finishing residency and see what sort of job offers they are getting, but dont be fooled by the "diamond in the rough" offers which do come along every so often.
According to these, he's not too far off:
It was the dean of the college who said it and I thought it was high too but I mean really its encompassing the entire country from FP out in BFE Western NE to Private FP Hollywood. Seemed to be feasible to me.
This sounds like a series of lines from a bad rap song or something.
West Coast, can you FEEL me?
East Coast, can you FEEL me?
Way up North, can you FEEL me?
Dirrty South, can you FEEL me?
Sometimes I amuse myself.
Do you have any particular book recommendation?
I think DOs volunteer (i.e. no salary) almost exclusively. It's a thing they do.
I still prefer the country cover of "Gin and Juice".
From what I have seen, FP's CAN make a very lucrative living, if they're smart about it. An FP DO who graduated from NYCOM is only in his mid 30's and already has 4 practices - 3 in the NYC area and 1 in Florida. I have been told if you're a good businessman as an FP, you can make a killing.
As far as salaries. A DO can also charge insurance for doing OMT during a patient visit, so techincally, I guess for an FP a DO could charge more per visit to insurance companies.
You guys have high hopes. Anyways it is tough for FPs to make over 200K. I know you pre-meds/pre-dos know it all. But believe me the one guy you know or may have heard of who makes 300K per yr is at the far end the range. My experience is that alliedphysicians is a good slightly below avg number. The problem is that physician renumeration is not simple at all.
Lastly to the person who thinks this is "supply and demand" doesnt fully understand medical economics. The govt sets the reimbursement along with insurers. Most FP and PCP offices are packed full of pts. As such the only way to make more money is to get more per visit which just did happen and to pray that CMS doesnt cut payments (5%) which was saved at the last minute.
But does it pay enough to make it worth his time? an MD can charge for starting a Peripheral IV, but not a ton of them do it.
Careful about using recruiting agencies as your salary information provider.
There are several good books that explains the economics of healthcare
Health Economics, 3rd edition by Charles E. Phelps is a good textbook. ISBN: 032106898X
Another recommendation is:
The Economics of Health and Health Care, 5th edition by Folland, Goodman, and Stano. ISBN: 0132279428
The above are textbooks but offer good understandings of the economics of healthcare (with a focus on US healthcare).
Another book, while not exclusively focused on economics but lends a good overview of healthcare, but is a quicker read and may be more interesting (less dry) and also cheaper is
Understanding Health Policy (Lange) by Bodenheimer and Grumbach. ISBN: 0071423117
Starting a peripheral IV takes more time than most OMT treatments. And OMT pays better than an IV line as well.
JP how much does OMT pay? or is this purely your opinion?
Are you counting the time it takes to gather the stuff that is required to start an IV or are you just assuming it takes longer because you're not that quick at it due to a relative lack of experience?
Good advice. How do their salary data for surgery compare with what you know? You're probably very familiar with what surgeons earn on average and what they earn right out of residency.
It's reasonable to think that if their data are correct with the surgical salaries, it's correct with FM.
Yea...go search through through tons of links with hundreds of posts by everyone and their dog.
Not sure that's gonna save you too much time though
If you guys want people to use the faqs, it would help to edit out all the fluff and make a concise FAQ with Answers that's precise and to the point.
Ya, but with the pre-med work ethic, it should be a piece of cake. Besides, it doesn't take long to search for your answer. Just think of it as MCAT training.
Yea...I guess he should get used to tedious searching for info anyway
Pays based on areas of the body treated. Generally you can make at least $20.00 per body area
Dont be jealous.
And since I dont know too much about it.. How long does it take to say do someones back?
Cervical, thoracic and lumbar spine in 3-4 minutes.
All while my nurse is starting the IV (and billing for it ).
so $60 in 5 mins? Not bad. I assume you cant do this for all your patients. Otherwise DOs would be richer than plastic surgeons.
If you think you want to go into radiology, dermatology, ophthalmology, and maybe a few other fields with limited number of residency spots then perhaps you should think MD first, though DO could still get you there. You may be at a disadvantage going for some of these residency spots as a DO, depending on which school you attend. Otherwise, I can't think of any difference worth mentioning.
If you tack an OMT charge onto a claim for a routine visit, you usually won't get paid for both by commercial insurance. They will either pay for just the Eval and Management code or the procedure, but often not both. You definitely could appeal this and you'd probably be in the right, but I'm not sure its worth the time. If a patient really thinks they benefit from OMT, then they will come to you just for the procedure with a seperate appointment. This is not financially attractive, because it takes up an appointment slot and a potential level 4 patient visit is generally a higher reimbursement than OMT.
Also, tacking on OMT to every single visit is more or less a form of quackery.
Very few DO's will get to JP's level of efficiency....he did an OMM pre-doctoral fellowship year. The few that have a practice largely devoted to OMM have rediculous waitlists to get an appt. The DO's in primary care who use OMM occasionally when its indicated get to bill for it like any out-patient procedure....so it definitely ads some $$ to an average primary care practice. That being said, I plan on going into PM&R/Sports Med and would like to set aside 1 day a week for my OMM appointments...as to not potentially mess up the flow/timing of my other days. I know of several DO's doing it like that now and it seems to work out well