Academic dilemma...possible expulsion from Ivy League school

[pianola]

^I kind of agree with TRN, there. The potential damage to others by 'cheating' on two points is FAR less than the potential damage to others by driving drunk.

But again, we know nothing about this girl's motivations for cheating or why she felt it was acceptable. Perhaps she is a horrible, petty person. Perhaps she actually IS having psychiatric troubles. I mean we'll never know one way or the other.

Until I'm put in a position where I have to judge her I think I'll refrain from commenting one way or the other on her particular situation.

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[Legato]

You know some of the posters on this thread have introduced the idea that "everyone cheats, it's just that some people get caught and others don't". I feel like I've seen enough unethical behavior to kind of believe that yeah, actually, there are a LOT of people in the world who cheat. I guess only 1% of them are either stupid enough or annoying enough to suffer the full-blown consequences.

Obviously, I don't know that everyone cheats, but I'm pretty sure that it's gotta be higher than 1% of applicants based on my own experience.

Of course...the stupid or people in low positions suffer the consequences of cheating. I think that the concept of ethics is dying because it no longer has any value. "What is good for me is Good" is the moral code for most.

Sometimes I wish that high school and college were places of learning rather than a battleground for students. The fact that I only had to prove myself "better" than other students who were applying to the same schools turned me off to my education until now, although I still did well out of necessity.

 

[TRN1983]

Sometimes I wish that high school and college were places of learning rather than a battleground for students.

The sad part is that High School and college really are places for learning and not just a battleground... unless you're pre-professional. Professional's are supposed to hold a really special place in society. It's implied that we adhere to a high code of conduct that serves to benefit the community, and that sure as hell isn't the case when we'd rather destroy the person who may have done something to give themselves an edge over you in a competitive system which pits students against one another for a highly coveted "professional" program spot (e.g. OP's friend changing an answer b/c she think's it'll help her chances of getting into Med School) than the person who knowingly and selfishly put many lives at risk (e.g. the multitide of SDN cases where kids say they've had DUI's, and still get in b/c people just look at it as "meh, they'll grow up").

The priorities of many pre-professionals and pre-professional committee's are so far out of whack it makes me absolutely disgusted. And, I can't wait until I've jumped through all the hoops and I'm a part of the system so I can make a really big freaking stink about this situation.

 

[pianola]

^I totally agree with both of you guys. There are many reasons I'm a non-trad, but one of them was that I was absolutely disgusted with the attitudes of the pre-meds in my core science classes. College (and to some extent high school) really is a battleground; breeding grounds for the most disgusting forms of cheating and pettiness. Even at good schools . The fact that someone would cheat to go from a 96 to a 98 really isn't SO shocking to me, I guess (based on what I've seen).

I remember setting up a study session as a freshman for my first semester chemistry class...and everyone came and took notes when I talked...and then no one else was willing to explain the parts of the lecture that they understood. Just SO unwilling to share, just in case I happened to learn a little bit more than the next person in the study group. I got SO sick of it.

In music, it's really different. If we hadn't helped each other out, none of us would have gotten very far...we all were very clear on the benefits of helping each other out since our program was so small.

 

[TRN1983]

My school isn't as bad as it could be, but I still saw stuff like that. I spent TONS of time helping people out in classes like O-Chem and Physics. And, I missed class every now and then and when I'd come in and ask someone if I could see their notes for the day I missed there was always someone saying behind my back, "don't give him your notes!" (i.e. b/c I did well on tests everyone was rooting for me to fail, despite my attempts to help them). Luckily there were quite a few people who appreciated my efforts.

And, I can't help but think that if those people I am referring to who were always rooting for me to fail were (or are) on SDN they'd be jumping in on the "hang the OP's friend" bandwagon.

 

[katarina90]

Thanks for that TRN, for putting things into perspective...

A DUI is infinitely worse in my mind than cheating. Cheating is bad, and deserves to be punished, but when it gets to the point where its being compared to something on the level of a criminal arrest/putting people's lives in danger, that's ridiculous.

Pianola: I've noticed that too. At all the pre-health committee meetings people always ask what I'm doing as far as volunteering, research opps., etc. and I used to spill what I was doing and even usually offered to help them get involved as well if they wanted to. And then I noticed that everyone else was really vague about their answers (ie, where I would say "I'm volunteering at X hospital, I found the application on their website, actually here's the url if you're interested, I think they need more people"...they would say "Oh, I got a research position, my friend/dad/etc. set it up for me" and they wouldn't say anything more, even if asked, and were very vague, almost like they were afraid other people would find out about it.

 

[pianola]

Pianola: I've noticed that too. At all the pre-health committee meetings people always ask what I'm doing as far as volunteering, research opps., etc. and I used to spill what I was doing and even usually offered to help them get involved as well if they wanted to. And then I noticed that everyone else was really vague about their answers (ie, where I would say "I'm volunteering at X hospital, I found the application on their website, actually here's the url if you're interested, I think they need more people"...they would say "Oh, I got a research position, my friend/dad/etc. set it up for me" and they wouldn't say anything more, even if asked, and were very vague, almost like they were afraid other people would find out about it.

Oh absolutely, katarina. I've really tried to avoid that same attitude now that I'm in a position to share what I feel has been successful for me in getting into medical school specifically BECAUSE I remember how obnoxious it was as an undergrad (I'm a grad student now). I've tried to help friends get set up shadowing physicians, and I've been a mentor for young students who are uncomfortable with going straight into patient care in a hospice setting all alone.

I think that even one person who is willing to share can make a small difference in everyone's attitude. At least, I hope it does. Maybe my undergrad friends will pass the favor forward. I think they may; they're good kids.

 

[fizzle]

And then I noticed that everyone else was really vague about their answers (ie, where I would say "I'm volunteering at X hospital, I found the application on their website, actually here's the url if you're interested, I think they need more people"...they would say "Oh, I got a research position, my friend/dad/etc. set it up for me" and they wouldn't say anything more, even if asked, and were very vague, almost like they were afraid other people would find out about it.

Actually, I'm usually vague about my pre-med plans because I'm ashamed to admit that I'm a pre-med. Until I actually get in somewhere, I'm a nobody with big dreams, a wannabe. I'd rather not parade that fact around. In fact, when people ask me what I'm planning to do in the future, I just vaguely say, "Oh, I'm planning to apply to graduate or medical school someday." Just saying, people's motivations and reasons aren't always quite what you think they are. Then again, I'm not the type that goes to pre-health committees and clubs or ask other people for their own pre-medical plans while holding back my own.

 

[PainKiller69]

DUIs are inherently commited by those who are drunk. Many an adcom enjoys drinks after work...

On the other hand, many adcoms will not be able to relate to cheating. A cheater can always be held fully accountable for their actions. No one gets pressured to cheat, only to study harder.

I know I have never EVER cheated. I never will. I cannot relate to cheating on any level. It is a conscious attempt to undermine the very essence of academia.

With DUIs come the need for doctors. With cheating comes the disintegration of academic merit.

DUIs are not crimes of moral turpitude. People find themselves behind the wheel of a car after drinking for many reasons; however, 99% of the time it is NOT because they want to hurt themselves or others.

Cheating is a malicious act that shows extreme moral degradation as well as misplaced priorities inacted in an attempt to falsely raise ones academic standing. It is an direct insult and assault upon those who judge their academic performance (i.e. prof's and adcom's).

A person with an outstanding application who has driven under the influence of controlled substances is not likely to continue this behavior. Adcom's, who have witnessed similar instances in their own lives, are likely to give the applicant the benefit of the doubt.

A person with an outstanding (say 3.93 GPA) academic record who has been caught cheating has essentially rendered her academic credentials invalid. This makes cheating detrimental to any applicant applying to any academic institution.

It is the police who are left in charge of reprimanding those who commit criminal acts. Medical schools are in charge of finding the most qualified and capable doctors. Cheaters don't earn their grades.

Of course, if the commitee believes that the person is clearly an alcoholic, there is no point in admitting him only to see him fail. ...Then again, what about House.

 

[Legato]

The sad part is that High School and college really are places for learning and not just a battleground... unless you're pre-professional. Professional's are supposed to hold a really special place in society. It's implied that we adhere to a high code of conduct that serves to benefit the community, and that sure as hell isn't the case when we'd rather destroy the person who may have done something to give themselves an edge over you in a competitive system which pits students against one another for a highly coveted "professional" program spot (e.g. OP's friend changing an answer b/c she think's it'll help her chances of getting into Med School) than the person who knowingly and selfishly put many lives at risk (e.g. the multitide of SDN cases where kids say they've had DUI's, and still get in b/c people just look at it as "meh, they'll grow up").

The priorities of many pre-professionals and pre-professional committee's are so far out of whack it makes me absolutely disgusted. And, I can't wait until I've jumped through all the hoops and I'm a part of the system so I can make a really big freaking stink about this situation.

lol...I agree 100%. I've been planning the same thing...maybe we can join forces.

 

[TRN1983]

DUIs are inherently commited by those who are drunk. Many an adcom enjoys drinks after work, and many drive drunk on the regular.

Very, very, very flawed logic. While you're sober you MUST take proper precautions. If you are sober and fail to properly prepare for transportation and instead drive drunk you consciously made a decision that could have had deadly effects. I hate when people make that excuse. "I was drunk, how can I be responsible" It doesn't work that way.

DUIs are not crimes of moral turpitude. People find themselves behind the wheel of a car after drinking for many reasons; however, 99% of the time it is NOT because they want to hurt themselves or others.

No, and I doubt the OP's friend intended to hurt anyone. Both show that they have issues with good judgement. One person's issues put peoples lives at risk, one was stupid and dishonest. Again, no need for a scale here.

A person with an outstanding application who has driven under the influence of controlled substances is not likely to continue this behavior. Adcom's, who have witnessed similar instances in their own lives, are likely to give the applicant the benefit of the doubt.

That's a huge assumption. How can you prove this? Most people I know who have had DUI's have driven under the influence MANY times, they just don't always get caught.

It is the police who are left in charge of reprimanding those who commit criminal acts. Medical schools are in charge of finding the most qualified and capable doctors. Of course, if the commitee believes that the person is clearly an alcoholic, there is no point in admitting him only to see him fail. ...Then again, what about House.

I hope the house thing was a joke. Anyway, medical schools need to take character into consideration (and they do to some extent with the interview). IMHO a person who disrespects life by drinking and driving is a much poorer choice than someone who tried to get their 96-->98.

 

[cbrons]

I feel bad for this girl... But she should be slapped upside the head for her serious lapse in judgement... perhaps even referred for psychological treatment.

Getting into med school is hard. One of my friends, who goes to a Big Ten school, tells me numerous stories about how competitive her pre-med classes are and how much stress she is under. It's a battleground out there, with a lot of pressure.

She made a big mistake... and she deserves to fail her class. I don't think that this one mistake should keep her out of pursuing her dreams as a physician ... and frankly I think the fact that many people on here find murder and cheating to gain 2 points on a test equivalent speaks volumes about the compassion (or lack thereof) that many pre-meds have for people who occassionally screw up in life.

Let her apply and see if she can explain the situation.... people screw up. Many of your future patients will screw up a lot worse than this.. hopefully you can find it within yourself to feel just a little sympathy for their situation.

 

[PainKiller69]

Very, very, very flawed logic. While you're sober you MUST take proper precautions. If you are sober and fail to properly prepare for transportation and instead drive drunk you consciously made a decision that could have had deadly effects. I hate when people make that excuse. "I was drunk, how can I be responsible" It doesn't work that way.

There are many instances where this isn't possible.

Let's say you are staying at a friends apartment that night. After becoming blackout drunk, you are led to your vehicle and coaxed into driving home. Then, you crash.

This isn't a stretch; it actually happened.

 

[TRN1983]

There are many instances where this isn't possible.

Let's say you are staying at a friends apartment that night. After becoming blackout drunk, you are led to your vehicle and coaxed into driving home. Then, you crash.

This isn't a stretch; it actually happened.

It's all part of the planning process. You have to drink responsibly. That includes choosing to drink with the correct people. If you can't have a group of friends that includes a designated driver you ALL made a very bad decision while you were sober.

There is essentially NO excuse. There are very, very, very few situations where an obvious flaw in logic can be highlighted in a situation where someone drove while intoxicated.

 

[PainKiller69]

It's all part of the planning process. You have to drink responsibly. That includes choosing to drink with the correct people. If you can't have a group of friends that includes a designated driver you ALL made a very bad decision while you were sober.

There is essentially NO excuse. There are very, very, very few situations where an obvious flaw in logic can be highlighted in a situation where someone drove while intoxicated.

The plan was to sleep over at the house, no need for a designated driver. I'm not sure what you mean. Few situations involving DUIs exist where a flaw in logic can be made more apparent?

 

[TRN1983]

The plan was to sleep over at the house, no need for a designated driver. I'm not sure what you mean. Few situations involving DUIs exist where a flaw in logic can be made more apparent?

Okay, this is why I said "very, very, very few" not "none". In that situation I didn't read the part where the original intent was to sleep over and I'll admit that situation you described is one I'd be more sympathetic to than normal because the person may have taken reasonable precautions (other than maybe making a very poor choice in friends). However, if we could get statistics on the number of DUI's that occur in a fashion similar to this one they'd have to be astronomically small. There will be exceptions to pretty much everything. That single instance doesn't negate the validity of my argument. In reality drinking and driving is MUCH worse than changing an answer on a test, especially in the context of an aspiring health professional, and the VAST majority of drinking and driving incidents are the result of a cognitive decision not to appropriately plan for a safe way home after drinking.

 

[PainKiller69]

Okay, this is why I said "very, very, very few" not "none". In that situation I didn't read the part where the original intent was to sleep over and I'll admit that situation you described is one I'd be more sympathetic to than normal because the person may have taken reasonable precautions (other than maybe making a very poor choice in friends). However, if we could get statistics on the number of DUI's that occur in a fashion similar to this one they'd have to be astronomically small. There will be exceptions to pretty much everything. That single instance doesn't negate the validity of my argument. In reality drinking and driving is MUCH worse than changing an answer on a test, especially in the context of an aspiring health professional, and the VAST majority of drinking and driving incidents are the result of a cognitive decision not to appropriately plan for a safe way home after drinking.

Agreed. DUIs are much worse. Both have been and will be forgiven at the discretion of the adcom's. I believe that in either case, that instant where the act was committed is not perpetuated eternally. If the adcom's view it as a 'moment of weakness', the applicant will still stand a chance of admittance.

I wish this girl well. I'm sure she will make a very accomplished doctor/scientist.

 

[katarina90]

Actually, I'm usually vague about my pre-med plans because I'm ashamed to admit that I'm a pre-med. Until I actually get in somewhere, I'm a nobody with big dreams, a wannabe. I'd rather not parade that fact around. In fact, when people ask me what I'm planning to do in the future, I just vaguely say, "Oh, I'm planning to apply to graduate or medical school someday." Just saying, people's motivations and reasons aren't always quite what you think they are. Then again, I'm not the type that goes to pre-health committees and clubs or ask other people for their own pre-medical plans while holding back my own.

Oh, that's true. I'm sorry if I came off as cynical. I didn't mean to denigrate people who are vague for other reasons...ie., not knowing someone well, or like you said, not wanting to seem grandiose or presumptive, etc. (Actually, I felt the same way when I was graduating high school early--I kept it mum until I knew for sure I would meet all the requirements).

I guess the people I'm talking about are the type of people who ask a million questions about my plans (Oh, where are you doing research? How'd you get involved in that? Are there any spots left?..etc.) and then when I ask about theirs, they don't offer up any information. I think its great to network with people and help each other out, but it should be a two-way street.

 

[LizzyM]

Some medical professionals use a disease model in their approach to alcoholism. If someone with the disease comes to medical attention and obtains treatment after a DUI (a very common situation, btw) then an adcom may consider the applicant who is in recovery to be a calculated but acceptable risk for medical school. Physicians who develop alcoholism often get similar treatment with oversight and follow-up from state medical society impaired physician programs.

Dishonesty is different. Just as you wouldn't hire a convicted bank robber to work as a bank teller, most schools do not want a known perpetrator of academic dishonesty in their midst.

 

[littlealex]

I can't help but think maybe the system is designed to weed out people like her.

 

[TRN1983]

Some medical professionals use a disease model in their approach to alcoholism. If someone with the disease comes to medical attention and obtains treatment after a DUI (a very common situation, btw) then an adcom may consider the applicant who is in recovery to be a calculated but acceptable risk for medical school. Physicians who develop alcoholism often get similar treatment with oversight and follow-up from state medical society impaired physician programs.

Dishonesty is different. Just as you wouldn't hire a convicted bank robber to work as a bank teller, most schools do not want a known perpetrator of academic dishonesty in their midst.

I don't think its justifiable, just widely accepted. The disease model can be applied to cheaters, too. It is the choice of application that bothers me.

And, I just can't see how in any way/shape/form an alcoholic, especially with DUI events, who doesn't have a very long (>5yrs) and very successful (no drinking, no issues) can even be considered as anything close to an acceptable risk.

Unless proven otherwise, we can only assume this is a single event issue. Its not fair to judge on an assumption that either person is a repeat offender (i.e. chronic cheater or chronic drinker). Given that we can only judge a single instance, one is clearly much less severe than the other, especially in terms of someone who is an aspiring health professional.

 

[TRN1983]

I can't help but think maybe the system is designed to weed out people like her.

Well, I hope the system does take care of dishonesty. I just also think that the system needs to re-prioritize its admissions standards on more levels than I could possibly care to enumerate in the midst of studying for a biochem exam , and this is just one example where I think there is a very clear problem in where priorities lie.

 

[jdandturk]

I cannot recall having ever cheated. I can recall being VERY tempted to do so, and having the opportunity. But I didn't. Because I believe in integrity in what you do.



Is it because you 'deserve your goals, and no unfair professor is going to steal your dreams from you?'

yup

 

[LizzyM]

The disease model can be applied to cheaters, too.

Ah, no.

Again, would you hire a convicted bank robber, who only robbed one bank, as a bank teller?

Moral turpitude is not a disease.

 

[pianola]

Moral turpitude is not a disease.

Well, to play devil's advocate: Depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, phobias, etc. etc. are all considered diseases and they could potentially lead to cheating...And the person in this scenario who cheated for an A+ is not altogther an unlikely candidate for some kind of mental disorder.

I mean, ultimately, cheating shows a lack of judgment. A DUI shows a lack of judgment.

I suspect in either case, the offenders didn't intentionally mean to cause anyone else harm and, in both cases, moral considerations (and/or a consideration of others) were just not even on the table. Obviously, they should have been in both cases.

Both were poorly calculated risks, too.

Only you can kill someone by driving drunk and you can't really kill someone by cheating. <-- I think that point is kind of important, insofar as "What other considerations should the offenders have had".

Just my $0.02.

 

[TRN1983]

Ah, no.

Again, would you hire a convicted bank robber, who only robbed one bank, as a bank teller?

Moral turpetude is not a disease.

I'm not sure I agree with comparing a girl who changed an answer on a test to a bank robber. And, although I understand some people have serious drug problems, I, along with many others, consider drinking and driving moral turpitude.

In the context of becoming a physician, I think the person who chose to disregard life and drink and drive is a poorer choice than a person who chose to change an answer on a test and is a far greater risk to the general public.

Note: I'm not justifying either

 

[radxbandit]

Here is a pre-med dilemma for you all.....

One of my ex-classmates has a 3.93 at an Ivy League university. She is a junior and a biology major/pre-med. Two weeks ago, she received a grade of 96 on her chemistry midterm, but she needed a 98 to receive an A+. She decided to cheat and change a two point question to the correct answer when she received the exam back and submit it for a regrade. Unknown to her, the professor had photocopied the original exam and compared her original to the regrade and they were different. She was immediately placed on academic probation and the honor council decided to give her a harsh punishment to set an example for other students who would consider cheating. She will either:
(A) be expelled or
(B) fail her chemistry class, withdraw from all of her classes this semester, and be suspended for two extra semesters (Spring and Fall 2009)

She still expressed hopes of returning to her original college (if she is not expelled). If she is, she will finish up her undergraduate career at another college. She desperately wants to be a physician and is a deeply empathetic person, but with this large stain on her record, is there ANY REMOTE CHANCE she could get into an allopathic medical school or will this essentially prevent her from that?

haha what the hell. a litte bit greedy?

 

[TRN1983]

Interesting article about "academic cheating":

The study of students at one Ohio university found that ...

When the researchers asked students if they intended to cheat in the future, nearly half - 47 percent - said they did not intend to cheat but nearly one in four - 24 percent - agreed or strongly agreed that they would cheat.

The remaining 29 percent indicated that they were uncertain whether or not they would cheat.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/118463.php

^Essentially 53% of students reported that they didn't find cheating out of the possibilities, with 29% guaranteeing they would.

Unfortunately its rampant. It is very upsetting that it does happen, but IMHO this info brings to light the ridiculousness of how severely a cheater is punished when heading into professional school in comparison to someone who has had a DUI event. Both are, unfortunately, common. And, unless evidence is presented to counteract, I feel its safe to assume that premeds fall in this normal range of cheating behavior.

Both need to be dealt with. I don't think a single occurence of either should be future-career ending, but there should be some necessary set of steps the offender should take to demonstrate they won't be offending again. But, again, I just want to reiterate that I think the OP is being treated far too harshly when compared against peers who have more morally egregious acts (such as DUI).

 

[pianola]

^Essentially 53% of students reported that they didn't find cheating out of the possibilities, with 29% guaranteeing they would.

Hey that's pretty close to my 30% estimate. I was estimating about 30% of people cheat.

 

[LizzyM]

I'm not sure I agree with comparing a girl who changed an answer on a test to a bank robber.

what I'm saying is that hiring a convicted bank robber to work as bank teller is similar to selecting a woman expelled from college for cheating to be part of the medical school class.

 

[LizzyM]

cheating & DUI event. Both are, unfortunately, common.

In the US, there are about 418 DUI arrests per 100,000 adults per year.

In 2003, there were 961 arrests for alcohol related offenses (DUI, public drunkeness, liquor law violations) per 100,000 adults.

 

[Raryn]

In the US, there are about 418 DUI arrests per 100,000 adults per year.

In 2003, there were 961 arrests for alcohol related offenses (DUI, public drunkeness, liquor law violations) per 100,000 adults.

The proportions are probably much higher for the say, 18-25 group though.

 

[ANF1986]

In the US, there are about 418 DUI arrests per 100,000 adults per year.

In 2003, there were 961 arrests for alcohol related offenses (DUI, public drunkeness, liquor law violations) per 100,000 adults.

Morals are so subjective though LizzyM...Its really just conventional ideology. More often than not, in the REAL WORLD to get ahead you need to cheat others. Not necessarily on a "test," but in the business world and many other professions, you need to be very self interested, cut throat, and willing to screw the guy next to you for advancement. I think to deny this would be to deny reality and be too idealistic. While not advocating the aforementioned behavior or endorsing it, I think that it is an inconvenient fact of life, and one that not many people like to acknowledge.

We indoctrinate our young children with things like "you can be anything you want to be,"....."Cheating is wrong!"......."If you are nice good things will happen to you"..."lying is wrong".... We say this sort of stuff, when the reality of life is far different from those little sayings, and those who shelter their kids from this are often in for a real wake up call when thy make it into the real world (read: most premeds).

I also think, the med school process in general, puts A LOT of pressure on these kids. They are for the most part, students for the majority of their lives, and have a TREMENDOUS amount of pressure to perform and be the best, both from the med school adcoms, their parents, their professors, and their peers.

I would view a gunner who hides/steals books from the library to screw over his classmates, much more harshly then I would for a girl who felt it was necessary to cheat and risk everything for 2 measly points on an exam, when she already had an A. I think that it is pitiful that there is that much pressure on these kids that she wanted to cheat to get a higher A. That is by no means excusing her behavior, she should be appropriately reprimanded for it. But I think that blacklisting her from professional schools for an education is a bit too harsh. Especially when as stated previously, the amount of cheating and backstabbing in the professional world is 10x that of changing 2 points on a test.

 

[LizzyM]

The proportions are probably much higher for the say, 18-25 group though.

" Declines in DUI arrest rates have occurred for every age
group. Of particular note is the decrease in DUI arrest rates
for those under the age of 21 compared to their rates of DUI
arrest in the early 1980's when States had not adopted a uniform
drinking age. In 1980 persons between 16 and 20 years old
accounted for 10% of licensed drivers but 15% of DUI arrestees.
In 1996, this age group accounted for 7% of drivers and 8%
of DUI arrestees."

"Over the last decade rates of intoxication in fatal accidents
have declined across every age group."


US Dept of Justice, 1998.... old data but I've no reason to believe that this has change.


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/ac.txt

 

[LizzyM]

she should be appropriately reprimanded for it.

The OP has told us that her home institution is debating between suspension for more than a year or expulsion. That sounds like a pretty strong reprimand.

Face facts: academic institutions are tough on students found guilty of academic dishonesty. Proceed at your own risk.

 

[HanginInThere]

Morals are so subjective though LizzyM...Its really just conventional ideology. More often than not, in the REAL WORLD to get ahead you need to cheat others. Not necessarily on a "test," but in the business world and many other professions, you need to be very self interested, cut throat, and willing to screw the guy next to you for advancement. I think to deny this would be to deny reality and be too idealistic. While not advocating the aforementioned behavior or endorsing it, I think that it is an inconvenient fact of life, and one that not many people like to acknowledge.

Wow, that's a really sad way to see the world.

 

[Chemist0157]

Whoa, some people are overthinking this issue. The cheating event should at least be left on her record. Let's face it: there are many, MANY applicants just like you and just like me. Adcoms comb through applications and look for reasons to cut some people. If a medical school wants to take their chances with her, that's their decision, but the fact of the matter is, there's probably 100 applicants just like her who HAVEN'T cheated.

 

[HanginInThere]

The girl had a 3.93 GPA from an Ivy League and cheated for two points. She did a bad thing and got punished greatly for it. Sometimes people make bad decisions. In the end, it all depends on the admissions committee. Lets say that she finished her school, did stellar on her MCATs, and explained the situation somewhere in her application. I can believe that some school in the US would accept her. It is not like either of us have any proof to back us up...we can wait and see what happens years from now.

Yes, it does depend on the committee. And we've heard, in extremely clear terms on multiple occasions from LizzyM and from other people involved in admissions, how huge a deal this is in someone's application.

You can ignore what they say and believe whatever you want, but the voices in a position to know are unanimous and consistent: cheating, plaguarizing, falsifying data, and the like are cardinal sins in the academic world. They have no interest in taking a chance on someone who has broken their trust, and to think that a great MCAT or a high GPA from a top school is going to counterbalance the cheating to any degree is to ignore direct statements from the very people who make these decisions.

Disagree with the "rules of the game" of applications if you want (personally, I think they are spot-on), but I don't understand how someone can dispute that these are the rules, as specified by the folks who run the game.

 

[Legato]

Wow, that's a really sad way to see the world.

It is the truth about the world...you'll figure it out soon. Don't you know how corrupt so many academic institutions are? Maybe I got the real picture because of my parents.

 

[silas2642]

Well, to play devil's advocate: Depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, phobias, etc. etc. are all considered diseases and they could potentially lead to cheating...And the person in this scenario who cheated for an A+ is not altogther an unlikely candidate for some kind of mental disorder.

I mean, ultimately, cheating shows a lack of judgment. A DUI shows a lack of judgment.

I suspect in either case, the offenders didn't intentionally mean to cause anyone else harm and, in both cases, moral considerations (and/or a consideration of others) were just not even on the table. Obviously, they should have been in both cases.

Both were poorly calculated risks, too.

Only you can kill someone by driving drunk and you can't really kill someone by cheating. <-- I think that point is kind of important, insofar as "What other considerations should the offenders have had".

Just my $0.02.

Okay, so saying that mental illness could potentially lead to cheating is just ridiculous-- where on earth did you pull that statement from? Do you have ANY evidence of that an Axis I d/o is associated with higher rates of academic dishonesty because I have never, ever seen or heard any evidence of this. That kind of statement is just really offensive. Like LizzyM stated, cheating is reflective of one's moral character and not one's mental health, so get it right and stop making such flagrantly ignorant statements.

Yeah, you can potentially kill someone by cheating. If you keep cheating through professional school and you don't know this material, you could potentially miss a diagnosis and kill one of your patients-- that's a big "oops."

Also, flaws in moral character are kind of a big deal in medicine. What happens when she makes a mistake (which is going to inevitably happen)? Do you trust her to be forthcoming and admit it/document it? Or is this the type of person who is more likely to cover her tracks? For God's sake, she changed her answer for an A+ when she already had an A.

 

[Legato]

Disagree with the &quot;rules of the game&quot; of applications if you want (personally, I think they are spot-on), but I don't understand how someone can dispute that these are the rules, as specified by the folks who run the game.

As specified by one individual. There are many more. There are so many worse people in the world...some of them are sitting on admissions committees. Why should this one lose her entire future based on a single event?

The rules of the game suck, and I'm going to fix them. I had to accept them until now out of necessity, but there is something wrong and they need to be changed.

 

[HanginInThere]

Morals are so subjective though LizzyM...Its really just conventional ideology. More often than not, in the REAL WORLD to get ahead you need to cheat others. Not necessarily on a "test," but in the business world and many other professions, you need to be very self interested, cut throat, and willing to screw the guy next to you for advancement. I think to deny this would be to deny reality and be too idealistic. While not advocating the aforementioned behavior or endorsing it, I think that it is an inconvenient fact of life, and one that not many people like to acknowledge.

Wow, that's a really sad way to see the world.

It is the truth about the world...you'll figure it out soon. Don't you know how corrupt so many academic institutions are? Maybe I got the real picture because of my parents.

I'll figure it out soon?

I went through undergrad, through a career in the "real world", and into med school without needing to be "very self interested, cut throat, and willing to screw the guy next to [me] for advancement." I've done just fine without thinking I had to cheat anyone else. What do you envision happening to me now that will change my opinion of basic human nature?

 

[FatherOblivion]

Moral turpetude is not a disease.

Hit the nail on the head. She knew what she was doing was wrong, and she chose to ignore the immorality of her actions in exchange for some extremely modest rewards. It seems clear to me that this is situation exposes a fundamental character flaw, one which will be directly relevant not only to her future in medical school but her career as a physician. I often think that we are too hard on pre-meds in the sense that we demand that they not make the same youthful mistakes that are normally forgiven of others. That said, someone's honesty speaks directly to who they are as a human being. If you ask me, there is something deeply wrong with this girl and she needs to get help. I wouldn't blame adcoms for passing on her.

 

[Legato]

I'll figure it out soon?

I went through undergrad, through a career in the &quot;real world&quot;, and into med school without needing to be &quot;very self interested, cut throat, and willing to screw the guy next to [me] for advancement.&quot; I've done just fine without thinking I had to cheat anyone else. What do you envision happening to me now that will change my opinion of basic human nature?

Sorry...I was being rude. I shouldn't have said that. I'm not one of those cut-throat people, but I know that they are everywhere, and most people at top positions are like that, especially in the top universities. Like I said, I got the inside scoop on the workings of universities from my parents, and the people up top are pretty corrupt, including adcom members, so it bothers me to hear about these same individuals probably rejecting a student who cheated for two points when many are being hypocrites and it is them who created this messed up system in the first place. The system isn't to blame for what this girl did, but it definitely sucks and surely contributed to it. I knew one girl like this one in high school, and although she was very irritating, she didn't act this way out of malice...she had her own problems.

It just really surprises me that everyone is being so judgmental. I'm always cautious to judge people because I'm not perfect and I don't know her circumstances. I doubt most others are perfect saints.

 

[LizzyM]

the people up top are pretty corrupt, including adcom members, ...

It just really surprises me that everyone is being so judgmental.

 

[Legato]

But you don't know the extent of what these guys did... This kid only cheated for 2 points on a test, while the top guys at the university did things to hurt many, many more for years.

I only said that the top positions are filled with corrupt people anyway, or at least that is what I meant to say. I didn't say that just because you are at a top position, you are corrupt. There are exact names of people who are corrupt, but that is based on years of experience and not some small incident.

I understand denying admission to this student because you have so many applications to look through and don't have time to look through an application with a flaw like this, but to act like this student has committed such a great sin and thus doesn't even deserve a spot bothers me.

 

[HumidBeing]

Tired:

God I miss undergrads. You're all so cute.

We love you, too, Tired.

 

[HumidBeing]

and I don't agree with ANF1986. Just wanted to share some of those warm undergrad fuzzies with you.

 

[katarina90]

So I might just get lambasted for this, but something about this thread is a bit scarlet letter-esque. I mean, if the OP had a 2.8 GPA and went to a run of the mill school as opposed to being an Ivy League student with a 3.9, I don't think this thread would be nearly as heated or as interesting.

I don't think I would find this thread as fascinating either if that were the case.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way condoning what she did, but it seems like this thread would have been forgotten pretty quickly if OP hadn't had such an outstanding academic record. A cheater is infuriating, but a successful (or at least up into this point--whether this is a first offense or not is up for speculation) cheater is internet forum gold...

 

[Legato]

You should be immediately banned. Your post is not offensive or insulting, but it is incredibly stupid. And that level of stupidity will, in the long run, be more harmful to the SDN community than any insult or offensive post ever could be.

(Bonus points to anyone who gets the reference)

I don't understand the reference, and although it is a quick, not well thought out response, it isn't stupid. Bad people often end up on top...I thought that that was common knowledge. Universities or med schools are no special place. The policy may be to severely punish cheaters, but I won't accept that it shows some terrible lack of morals which other med students, doctors and adcoms have.