Academic dilemma...possible expulsion from Ivy League school

[LizzyM]

LizzyM, if you had to estimate, approximately what percentage of applicants have some sort of act of dishonesty or criminality listed somewhere in their files?

We see these posts all the time on SDN, but it's hard to figure out how common it is to see cheating, shoplifting, or DUIs on a medical school application.

It has been a few years since I had the burden of looking at all the applications with an institutional action (IA) = Yes.

I'd estimate that about 1% had something of this nature; about 0.8% breaking of dorm rules or breaches of decorum in public, 0.2% various forms of lying, cheating, stealing -- I don't recall any DUI but I do recall someone who caused a car wreck that killed somone (wasn't DUI). I could be off a bit and the proportion might be 0.5% overall but I think that the 4:1 ratio between dumb stuff and serious stuff holds.

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[LuckyMiner]

 

[pianola]

Interesting. Wow, I guess the fact that "institutional action" files are categorized separately from the other applications speaks volumes about what a problem this might cause for the applicant.

EDIT: You know, if the OP had presented the issue with just a few extra words: (e.g. "She is extremely penitent for what she has done. She has no idea what possessed her to do such a thing.") I really doubt there'd be this huge backlash against her (although there would undoubtedly be some people who would condemn her no matter what).

Funny how those few extra words can make a world of difference.

 

[ChairmanMao]

LizzyM, if you had to estimate, approximately what percentage of applicants have some sort of act of dishonesty or criminality listed somewhere in their files?

We see these posts all the time on SDN, but it's hard to figure out how common it is to see cheating, shoplifting, or DUIs on a medical school application.

Yeah, I was wondering how often the ADCOMs come across a seemingly perfect applicant who didn't list any prior arrest or institutional action only to have it clearly show up on the background check or in their recommendation letter.

*Edit Actually, I was wondering how often LizzyM has come across an applicant who tried to hide their prior arrest record or IA. I thought it would be pretty high, but based on what LizzyM is saying, only about ~1% of applicants have some kind of record, so the number of applicants who willfully try to hide this information would be probably much lower than 1%.

 

[TypicalTuesday]

One of my ex-classmates.....

I have an ex-classmate that thinks that what happened to your ex-classmate is hilarious and fully deserved.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I hope this "Ivy League" cheater doesn't get in.

 

[MattD]

Here is a pre-med dilemma for you all.....

One of my ex-classmates has a 3.93 at an Ivy League university. She is a junior and a biology major/pre-med. Two weeks ago, she received a grade of 96 on her chemistry midterm, but she needed a 98 to receive an A+. She decided to cheat and change a two point question to the correct answer when she received the exam back and submit it for a regrade. Unknown to her, the professor had photocopied the original exam and compared her original to the regrade and they were different. She was immediately placed on academic probation and the honor council decided to give her a harsh punishment to set an example for other students who would consider cheating. She will either:
(A) be expelled or
(B) fail her chemistry class, withdraw from all of her classes this semester, and be suspended for two extra semesters (Spring and Fall 2009)

She still expressed hopes of returning to her original college (if she is not expelled). If she is, she will finish up her undergraduate career at another college. She desperately wants to be a physician and is a deeply empathetic person, but with this large stain on her record, is there ANY REMOTE CHANCE she could get into an allopathic medical school or will this essentially prevent her from that?

oops...

talk about being out of touch with reality. Damn kids and their overblown sense of entitlement. Expell her.

 

[MattD]

Interesting. Wow, I guess the fact that "institutional action" files are categorized separately from the other applications speaks volumes about what a problem this might cause for the applicant.

EDIT: You know, if the OP had presented the issue with just a few extra words: (e.g. "She is extremely penitent for what she has done. She has no idea what possessed her to do such a thing.") I really doubt there'd be this huge backlash against her (although there would undoubtedly be some people who would condemn her no matter what).

Funny how those few extra words can make a world of difference.

Wouldn't matter. She wouldn't be repentant for her actions, she'd be repentant about the fact that she got caught. Perhaps it was a quickly made, dumb decision, but it was also a quickly made, selfish, dishonest, but DELIBERATE decision.

 

[silas2642]

I agree she was quite foolish, and hilarious at the same time. But I'm sorry to say people on this forum do not typically think realistic, they think pessimistic. Medical schools will not look at a 3.92 GPA and say "this is invalid because she had one minor cheating infraction on her record", I'm sorry that is not how life works. SDN posters over analyze these situation so incredibly much, its insane. I remember reading about 75 different people say if you have a criminal record, you will have to be an incredibly awesome applicant to get into allopathic medical school (which is simply put absolutely not true). This is the same situation, and if the student can explain her situation and make up for it with strong stats and a good interview she will be fine.

Alot of pre meds who come here are fairly dedicated pre meds. I know how it is, and as pre med we tend to get obsessed with medical school admission and read time and time again about how difficult medical school admission is. Thus we believe that a blemish on our application will significantly hinder our chances, but thats not how it is. I was in a somewhat similar situation and still got accepted so I know first hand how it works.

Again, to the OP. Your friend needs to be much more concerned with an F on her transcript and what will happen to her GPA because of it. If she can get back up to a 3.9 GPA with a strong MCAT she will be fine.

Somehow I would find it kind of hard to believe that this is the first time this girl has ever cheated on an exam, particularly if she is changing her answer for two points to get an A+. That is pretty gunner.

Med schools will tolerate a lot of things, but dishonesty is not one of them. The only thing that maybe, maybe will remediate this situation is time and a clear display of remorse (i.e. she speaks to other students about how she has learned from her mistake and how it has ruined her, etc.).

 

[silas2642]

The lack of empathy among the pre meds who post here amazes me. Most of us know what it is like to be obsessed with medical school admission, and how we would do anything to gain it. Imagine having that passion potentially taken away from you - how would you feel? Do you know nothing of empathy?

For those of you who posted here condeming the OP's friend to hell (ie. the NA NA NA child), you obviously lack an innate empathitic emotion, and will thus probably not make all that great of a doctor.

Yes I know, being empathetic to someone who unvoluntarily gets diagnosed with cancer is alot easier than being empathetic to someone who made the poor decision to cheat, but the fact of the matter is if you are inately empathetic (which is the quality of a great doctor) you will feel sorry for the OP's friend because you know just what it would be like to have your dreams potentially taken away from you.

OP, no one here is perfect, even those who condem your friend. Though I mentioned the potential impossibility of your friend achieving her dreams, I do not believe that is the case. She will be fine, she just needs to get back on track and start moving forward.

Sorry for the typos, I'm tired.

Whoa, now. No one is saying that anyone is perfect; however there is absolutely no reason for anyone to feel bad for this person. She cheated, she got caught, and now she is dealing with the consequences of her actions. Why would anyone feel bad for her? It's people like her who throw off the curve and screw everyone else. She's an adult now, and that's part of growing up-- dealing with the decisions you make. She made the decision to change the answer on an exam, break the honor code, and now it's ruined her future. That's just the way it goes.

 

[Demas567]

Wouldn't matter. She wouldn't be repentant for her actions, she'd be repentant about the fact that she got caught. Perhaps it was a quickly made, dumb decision, but it was also a quickly made, selfish, dishonest, but DELIBERATE decision.

Totally agree. I doubt there is ANY remorse in this girl, except the fact that she got caught and has pretty much ruined her entire life.

You can say that there is more to life than getting into med school (and there is) but based on her actions (changing her answer to get an A+ instead of an A), that's probably the only thing that she cared about, so yea, she ruined her life. And she deserved it.

 

[lala2626]

i can bet anything that this was NOT the first time she's cheated.. maybe not in this form but lil lies here and there.. and her high gpa of 3.93 does not hold any credibility anymore. if ur willing to do something like that, it shows she is not fully honest about things and lacks integrity. she deserves to be expelled so she's completely scared out of her mind in the future when she's deliberating whether or not to lie/cheat about something..

 

[jdandturk]

how many people can honestly say that they have never cheated

 

[pianola]

Yeah, I was wondering how often the ADCOMs come across a seemingly perfect applicant who didn't list any prior arrest or institutional action only to have it clearly show up on the background check or in their recommendation letter.

*Edit Actually, I was wondering how often LizzyM has come across an applicant who tried to hide their prior arrest record or IA. I thought it would be pretty high, but based on what LizzyM is saying, only about ~1% of applicants have some kind of record, so the number of applicants who willfully try to hide this information would be probably much lower than 1%.

Yeah, I was really surprised. I was figuring at least 30% had some kind of dishonesty/criminality on their record...but I guess my estimates were WAAY too high.

Thanks for giving us some perspective, LizzyM.

 

[TRN1983]

how many people can honestly say that they have never cheated

I cheated in high school on school work b/c I just didn't care about education at that time in my life--I thought it was a burden. But, since I've learned to value education and started college, on school work and tests I honestly never cheat, despite having opportunities, out of pride/integrity I even had a professor send a test to my house (without asking her, she did it on her own) when I had an issue arise and I couldn't make it in, and I swear to God I actually took the test at my house without cheating in any fashion

 

[mezmerized7]

how many people can honestly say that they have never cheated

I stated before that everyone makes mistakes but some consequences are more dire than others. As other people have stated, she tried to get an A+ not a C from a C-, which does not make it right in any way. It's just the principle. Maybe I did so in like my earlier years, maybe. But when I was in college and was more mature, I realized that cheating was just not worth it. I couldn't bring myself to do it, even if I wanted to.

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

I feel bad for her! That's sad!

No, it really isn't.

This is probably the last place you want to come for advice on this topic - these pre-meds are sooo harsh.

Either way, OP, your "friend" will still most definitely have a shot at getting into medical school. They will not refuse someone with awesome stats because of an extremely minor infraction,
I also had a few "blemishes" on my application yet I still received multiple MD acceptences (3.7 gpa 33 MCAT, strong upward trend). Just explain your situation during your interview and make sure they know you are remoursful about it (assuming you or "she" is/are). She may not be able to get into a top school who is looking for perfect applicants, but as long as shes ok with a tier 2-3 school I believe she will be fine.

Point of the story - medical schools do not look for reasons to refuse applicants they like (

While I agree with you that the premeds on here can be overly psychotic (sorry guys, it's the truth) and I usually disagree with their harsh consensus, but academic dishonesty on this type of level is more than a "blemish". I would consider getting arrested for public intoxication a "blemish" on an app. (see, i'm lenient). Straight up, this person needs no academic help. She chose to cheat with minimal gain (or none, as I see it), which is disturbing, particularly over 2 stupid points. If she was failing the class, I would understand her motive. She's got other probs. I'm sure she'll learn from it, but if I was sitting on admissions for a med school I would not want this person around.
This person reminds me of the type that would change something in the patient's chart if she made a boo-boo. Or the type that would knick the bowel in surgery and never say anything. Trust me, she's that person.

She changed one answer on a single test, an act that took perhaps a minute. It was juvenile mistake, one that showed a lack of maturity.

College is a place of learning. It is here that we not only explore academic disciplines, but learn who we are as people and grow morally. This girl did not know the consequences of her actions, and she should not be burned at the stake for the slightest of sins. Instead, she should be taught.

Juvenile, maybe. Not knowing the consequences? Please... This girl is not 10 years old, and does not need to be "taught" that dishonesty at this level is a "no-no". It never ceases to amaze me how the smartest people do the dumbest things.

Senator Ted Stevens can almost gain reelection for the senate after being a convicted felon. Look at the society we live in. I'm not condoning it, but why are premed students expected to be up on a Greek pedestal?

Doctors are viewed as "squeaky clean". Politicians are known to be crooked bastards. Enough said.

So you're telling me that if a cute little girl started crying in front of you, you wouldn't give her the "A" instead of an "A-"?

I would laugh in her face

 

[aznb0y129]

how many people can honestly say that they have never cheated

I've never cheated on a test while I was in college. Before that, a couple times in high school when I was failing physics junior year.

 

[Fakesmile]

As much as I appreciate the assumption, it is not me. Thanks for your concern though. Take a look at my previous posts. I've been accepted to a few schools already and graduated from college last year.

I'm simply concerned....as much as she was my friend, she was my advisee when she was a freshman and I was a junior. Guess I didn't advise her too well!!! haha

It's highly likely that she found this thread. If she really did, what would she be thinking of you? Does she know that you posted this? If you were a real friend of her, I think it's more appropriate to let her know that you posted her story here.

 

[mmmcdowe]

It was a dumb choice on her part, she should have known that many proffies copy the tests, it wasn't worth the risk. And yes, I have cheated before, IN MIDDLE SCHOOL! I got my butt caught and got a 0 on the exam, and I haven't ever done that again.

There is also the debate about what level of homework help is cheating..... for turned in assignments at least. My friend and I would also go over our take at home quizes together, and we would argue until we found the correct answers for everything. Is that cheating? It could be considered that, after all we shared answers.

 

[musicalmedicine]

That is ridiculous. I hope a medical school would not accept a person who was expelled for academic misconduct, I don't want to be in school with people like this nor do I want people like this treating me.

 

[usermike8500]

That is ridiculous. I hope a medical school would not accept a person who was expelled for academic misconduct, I don't want to be in school with people like this nor do I want people like this treating me.

Everybody makes dumb decisions sometimes. I hope that medical schools will look at the whole picture regarding this applicant rather than just judge him/her based on one mistake.

 

[Twiigg]

I would laugh in her face

Yeah... right. You say that now.

 

[Youwishyouknew]

So I just found this post and I found the whole thing to be very interesting. I have asked a few people in various admissions offices what the consequences are for academic dishonesty. I was curious to see what the answer was. The general consensus was that academic dishonesty is a very serious offense. Often times cheating is taken more seriously than many criminal offenses because it speaks to integrity.

I actually turned someone in for doing this same thing, during class a couple weeks ago!! I was astounded that the person was erasing their answers and rewriting on the exam during the same class and asking for a regrade. I do know this person was already admitted to medical school, so I don't know what is going to happen to that acceptance. In all honesty, I would never want to go to medical school with someone like that. We all know being pre-med is hard, but some of us suck it up and take the bad grade.

 

[Twiigg]

So I just found this post and I found the whole thing to be very interesting. I have asked a few people in various admissions offices what the consequences are for academic dishonesty. I was curious to see what the answer was. The general consensus was that academic dishonesty is a very serious offense. Often times cheating is taken more seriously than many criminal offenses because it speaks to integrity.

I actually turned someone in for doing this same thing, during class a couple weeks ago!! I was astounded that the person was erasing their answers and rewriting on the exam during the same class and asking for a regrade. I do know this person was already admitted to medical school, so I don't know what is going to happen to that acceptance. In all honesty, I would never want to go to medical school with someone like that. We all know being pre-med is hard, but some of us suck it up and take the bad grade.

 

[silas2642]

So I just found this post and I found the whole thing to be very interesting. I have asked a few people in various admissions offices what the consequences are for academic dishonesty. I was curious to see what the answer was. The general consensus was that academic dishonesty is a very serious offense. Often times cheating is taken more seriously than many criminal offenses because it speaks to integrity.

I actually turned someone in for doing this same thing, during class a couple weeks ago!! I was astounded that the person was erasing their answers and rewriting on the exam during the same class and asking for a regrade. I do know this person was already admitted to medical school, so I don't know what is going to happen to that acceptance. In all honesty, I would never want to go to medical school with someone like that. We all know being pre-med is hard, but some of us suck it up and take the bad grade.

Well, that will give you something to talk about at your interviews.

 

[dragonfly99]

We're all speculating because we don't know this person. This could have been a one time very poor judgment for which she is paying dearly, or it could be part of a pattern of behavior. I think there is nothing more to do now but go forward. Obviously she is a smart person and going to be successful - you should tell her that, OP. She'll either be successful as a doctor or as something else, as long as she does learn from this mistake.

I would try hard to get back in to school if I were her. I mean, even if they kick her out for 1 year, I think having the guts to come back would show some character. And in the mean time, she should find a job. I think I would do that rather than just to go to another school...this makes it look like she is running away from the problem. However, she may just not be able to face going back to Harvard, or perhaps it was not the right school for her? Some people do not do great at big cutthroat universities...I personally think I would have been eaten alive and probably learned less than at the 1400-student excellent liberal arts school I attended.

I also agree with bipolardoc about the fact that she should go for psychological counseling. If not due to just straight dishonesty, then her cheating was likely due to extreme perfectionism, which can actually be a problem as a doctor...sometimes you have to make decisions based on less that full and perfect information, and sometimes you have to accept that you cannot be perfect.

She should think about whether she really wants to work in health care vs. not. It can be quite stressful on an ongoing basis. Perhaps some more volunteer work in a health care setting could help clarify this.

I also think some of you on here are probably underestimating the pressure of being premed at Harvard. It's something I haven't personally experienced but I am sure it is not a walk in the park...not that this excuses the student's behavior in any way. I would never "call out" a student in class, or ask one to stay after class to "discuss a discrepancy" in front of other students. She should pay for what she has done but I don't see the point of doing it in public. I guess they are just fed up with people cheating.

Also, I am surprised at how much cheating seems to go on at universities now (based on comments on this thread). I honestly don't know of anyone cheating at my small liberal arts college...I mean we had an honor code and actually people stuck by it. But also I don't think people were made to feel like crapola if they got a B+. I mean, sometimes you cannot ace every class. OP, perhaps your friend would do better at a smaller private college that puts more value on the individual and personal relationships among students and between students and professors. It seems like students at some of these big universities get to competing so much that they forget what is important - it's the learning, not the grade per se.

As to whether she can ever get in to medical school - I am 99% sure that a Caribbean medical school would take her. Also, perhaps European medical schools (such as somewhere in the UK like Ireland) might be an option, esp. if they don't ask about academic infractions on their application, etc.

 

[ChairmanMao]

I would laugh in her face

I once worked as a research student in a lab. Our PI was a middle age MD/Ph.D. physician and he was talking about how often cheating happened while he was an undergrad. He said that when he used to be a TA for organic chemistry (this must have been in the 1970s), there were a number of girls who were failing orgo. Rather than go and change their answers, these girls actually came to him after class and asked him if they could improve their situation by sleeping with him. This was in the era before sexual harrasment training, but the OP's friend sounds exactly like the type who would do anything to get ahead, even if it means having sex or sleeping with the professor or TA.

 

[MattD]

how many people can honestly say that they have never cheated

I cannot recall having ever cheated. I can recall being VERY tempted to do so, and having the opportunity. But I didn't. Because I believe in integrity in what you do.

Now, I'm not promising you that were you to run a video of my life you wouldn't find an instance, it's certainly possible. However, I can't remember an instance of it, which means if I ever did cheat it would probably have been pre-highschool, so I'm ok with chalking it up to immaturity.


Obviously, based on your statement, you HAVE cheated... What class(es) did you cheat in? What assignment(s)? Please tell us about it, as you seem to feel that it's an acceptable activity. And if you're not willing to spill all, maybe you too recognize that it's wrong? If that's the case, please at least share how you justify it to yourself. Is it because 'everybody does it, so you have to do it too to stay on an even playing field?' Is it because you 'deserve your goals, and no unfair professor is going to steal your dreams from you?'

 

[MattD]

I take it that smiley means you don't approve? Don't you care anything about the integrity of your profession? Physicians and aspiring physicians really need to do a better job of policing the profession, lest others come in and police it for them.

And don't you care about the validity of your own grade? Wouldn't it bother you if someone cheated to acheive the same score or higher than you achieved honestly? If not, why do you devalue your own hard work that way?

I once worked as a research student in a lab. Our PI was a middle age MD/Ph.D. physician and he was talking about how often cheating happened while he was an undergrad. He said that when he used to be a TA for organic chemistry (this must have been in the 1970s), there were a number of girls who were failing orgo. Rather than go and change their answers, these girls actually came to him after class and asked him if they could improve their situation by sleeping with him. This was in the era before sexual harrasment training, but the OP's friend sounds exactly like the type who would do anything to get ahead, even if it means having sex or sleeping with the professor or TA.

Did your PI indicate whether he allowed these young ladies to 'earn' a better grade?? :-D

 

[Twiigg]

I take it that smiley means you don't approve?

Don't you care anything about the integrity of your profession?

Physicians and aspiring physicians really need to do a better job of policing the profession, lest others come in and police it for them.

And don't you care about the validity of your own grade?

Wouldn't it bother you if someone cheated to acheive the same score or higher than you achieved honestly?

If not, why do you devalue your own hard work that way?

So. I figured since you decided to read 6 statements and interrogative questions into a single "smilie," I would answer you in similarly. Rebuttal?

 

[MattD]

So. I figured since you decided to read 6 statements and interrogative questions into a single "smilie," I would answer you in similarly. Rebuttal?

Creative, but your sarcasm hides an unwillingness to respond to my question with anything with substance.

You either think cheating should be ignored, or you think cheaters should be turned in. If I read you wrong, please correct me. If not, just admit it.

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

Yeah... right. You say that now.

No, I really would. That crap hasn't worked on me in the past when I had to fire employees (mostly for stealing), and it sure as hell wouldn't fly with me today. I would, I would laugh in her face and tell her to GTFO of my office.

 

[GoBuckeyes913]

I once worked as a research student in a lab. Our PI was a middle age MD/Ph.D. physician and he was talking about how often cheating happened while he was an undergrad. He said that when he used to be a TA for organic chemistry (this must have been in the 1970s), there were a number of girls who were failing orgo. Rather than go and change their answers, these girls actually came to him after class and asked him if they could improve their situation by sleeping with him. This was in the era before sexual harrasment training, but the OP's friend sounds exactly like the type who would do anything to get ahead, even if it means having sex or sleeping with the professor or TA.

I totally believe it. It went on in my class.

 

[Twiigg]

No, I really would. That crap hasn't worked on me in the past when I had to fire employees (mostly for stealing), and it sure as hell wouldn't fly with me today. I would, I would laugh in her face and tell her to GTFO of my office.

"Emotion is futile."

I like that!

 

[WannaBePreMed]

I'm sorry if you don't agree but I have empathy for this girl; I condone cheating but I understand. It was obviously a bad decision but people are people and they make mistakes. This being said I still think there's almost no way she's going to be accepted to Med school. There's going to be lost of trust that she can never gain back.

I've never cheated on a test or quiz since like elementary school. Lol I cheated on vocabulary test I still remember the name of the guy I cheated off of, Stanley. I felt so bad I told myself I'd never cheat again, haven't cheated since.

 

[biophysicianai]

there's a professor at my school who is known to sleep with numerous students per semester. he teaches courses for a major that tends to be female heavy, and takes advantage of it

he's tenured, and his sextoys are of age, so there isn't much the school does about it. the only policy standing on the matter is that a professor/TA can't grade work submitted by a student they've had sexual contact with

alls i gotz is, WTF mate?

 

[LizzyM]

there's a professor at my school who is known to sleep with numerous students per semester. he teaches courses for a major that tends to be female heavy, and takes advantage of it

he's tenured, and his sextoys are of age, so there isn't much the school does about it. the only policy standing on the matter is that a professor/TA can't grade work submitted by a student they've had sexual contact with

alls i gotz is, WTF mate?

Tenure doesn't matter. Age doesn't matter. There is plenty the school can do about it if one of his lovers complains. I've seen it happen at two top tier universities and it is not pretty.

 

[ChairmanMao]

Did your PI indicate whether he allowed these young ladies to 'earn' a better grade?? :-D

He didn't, but this was in the 70s remember, and men and women behaved differently back then and I would imagine that this sort of thing was prevalent, because nowadays, they have all this sexual harrasment training at my school and they make you sign a pledge not to sexually harass your lab partner in Ochem or engage in sexual relationships with your professors, TAs, etc.

 

[pianola]

Tenure doesn't matter. Age doesn't matter. There is plenty the school can do about it if one of his lovers complains. I've seen it happen at two top tier universities and it is not pretty.

Does the student get punished as well if she's accepted some sort of personal gain (grades or otherwise) in exchange for certain favors?

Or is it assumed that she was the victim because the professor was the one in the position of power? (Assuming the student is a female).

Every situation is different...I've heard stories of students coming on to teachers and vice versa. Do the ethics boards in different schools take into account who was the aggressor or is the standard line just that the 'professor/faculty member should have known better.'?

 

[njbmd]

Here is a pre-med dilemma for you all.....

One of my ex-classmates has a 3.93 at an Ivy League university. She is a junior and a biology major/pre-med. Two weeks ago, she received a grade of 96 on her chemistry midterm, but she needed a 98 to receive an A+. She decided to cheat and change a two point question to the correct answer when she received the exam back and submit it for a regrade. Unknown to her, the professor had photocopied the original exam and compared her original to the regrade and they were different. She was immediately placed on academic probation and the honor council decided to give her a harsh punishment to set an example for other students who would consider cheating. She will either:
(A) be expelled or
(B) fail her chemistry class, withdraw from all of her classes this semester, and be suspended for two extra semesters (Spring and Fall 2009)

She still expressed hopes of returning to her original college (if she is not expelled). If she is, she will finish up her undergraduate career at another college. She desperately wants to be a physician and is a deeply empathetic person, but with this large stain on her record, is there ANY REMOTE CHANCE she could get into an allopathic medical school or will this essentially prevent her from that?

Not in this country. Academic dishonesty is a "deal breaker". Tell your friend to start working on raising a pile of money so that she can travel offshore and practice overseas. It isn't likely that practice of any healthcare profession, let alone medicine (that requires a license) is going to happen in this country. As soon as her name goes in for background check, the red flags are going to fly. DON'T CHEAT! There are no amount of points that are worth it. A grade of "D/F" would have looked better than academic dishonesty.

Far from being harsh, the honor council was lenient in even allowing her to stay. At most institutions, academic dishonesty is grounds for expulsion.

 

[Goober]

Not in this country. Academic dishonesty is a "deal breaker". Tell your friend to start working on raising a pile of money so that she can travel offshore and practice overseas. It isn't likely that practice of any healthcare profession, let alone medicine (that requires a license) is going to happen in this country. As soon as her name goes in for background check, the red flags are going to fly. DON'T CHEAT! There are no amount of points that are worth it. A grade of "D/F" would have looked better than academic dishonesty.

Far from being harsh, the honor council was lenient in even allowing her to stay. At most institutions, academic dishonesty is grounds for expulsion.

It is not a deal breaker. Of course it is wrong and she should suffer the significant consequences, but it is definitely not a deal breaker. I know or have heard of quite a few people that have cheated, been caught and went "eventually" to med school. I have known people who got caught cheating in med/dental and pharmacy schools that were not thrown out.

And actually at most undergradaute institutions a single trangression for cheating is not grounds for explusion. You will get an "F", put on probation of some sort and you better not screw up again. There are some undergraduate institutions that have very strict honor codes which results in immediate explusion and I applaud them. But this is actually the exception, not the rule.

 

[scg]

I would imagine her situation would be similar to a researcher looking for a position after being exposed for falsifying data.

 

[Legato]

I know that what she did was bad, and she got what she deserved (maybe overdoing it a bit though), but I'm positive most people are like her. The clever people just don't get caught for their bad actions though.

Not in this country. Academic dishonesty is a "deal breaker". Tell your friend to start working on raising a pile of money so that she can travel offshore and practice overseas. It isn't likely that practice of any healthcare profession, let alone medicine (that requires a license) is going to happen in this country. As soon as her name goes in for background check, the red flags are going to fly. DON'T CHEAT! There are no amount of points that are worth it. A grade of "D/F" would have looked better than academic dishonesty.

Far from being harsh, the honor council was lenient in even allowing her to stay. At most institutions, academic dishonesty is grounds for expulsion.

I know of doctors who are addicted to the drugs they prescribe who are still able to practice medicine at decent places after short suspensions. I'm sure that it isn't all over for her, provided she is intelligent. Of course, she won't get into top schools anymore.

 

[LizzyM]

Does the student get punished as well if she's accepted some sort of personal gain (grades or otherwise) in exchange for certain favors?

Or is it assumed that she was the victim because the professor was the one in the position of power? (Assuming the student is a female).

Every situation is different...I've heard stories of students coming on to teachers and vice versa. Do the ethics boards in different schools take into account who was the aggressor or is the standard line just that the 'professor/faculty member should have known better.'?

In both instances, as far as I know, it was "romance" between a married man on the faculty and an unmarried graduate student. Of course, grad school is less about grades and more about opportunities for collaboration on papers, recommendations for professional advancement (fellowships), etc. and it is very hard to figure out if the teacher is promoting the student's career because the student is talented or because they are lovers.

In the end, the blame is always going to come down on the faculty member. The lines are clear to faculty and we are instructed not to cross the line.

In both cases, the faculty member was fired.

 

[silas2642]

I know that what she did was bad, and she got what she deserved (maybe overdoing it a bit though), but I'm positive most people are like her. The clever people just don't get caught for their bad actions though.


I know of doctors who are addicted to the drugs they prescribe who are still able to practice medicine at decent places after short suspensions. I'm sure that it isn't all over for her, provided she is intelligent. Of course, she won't get into top schools anymore.

No, it's pretty much over. If you have a pool of stellar applicants of whom you are trying to choose the best future physicians, who are you going to pick, the ones who don't have a record of academic dishonesty (which are the vast majority) or the one who does (the minority)? The one with the history of cheating is more of a risk, she (in this case a "she") is more likely to lie and cover up when she makes a mistake, she has a known past history of cheating and may do it again in the future.

 

[MedicalSonata]

I didn't read the whole thread...sorry if the school has already been mentioned..

But would it happen to be Cornell?

 

[Legato]

No, it's pretty much over. If you have a pool of stellar applicants of whom you are trying to choose the best future physicians, who are you going to pick, the ones who don't have a record of academic dishonesty (which are the vast majority) or the one who does (the minority)? The one with the history of cheating is more of a risk, she (in this case a "she") is more likely to lie and cover up when she makes a mistake, she has a known past history of cheating and may do it again in the future.

Doctors today are no saints...people do worse and get out fine.

The girl had a 3.93 GPA from an Ivy League and cheated for two points. She did a bad thing and got punished greatly for it. Sometimes people make bad decisions. In the end, it all depends on the admissions committee. Lets say that she finished her school, did stellar on her MCATs, and explained the situation somewhere in her application. I can believe that some school in the US would accept her. It is not like either of us have any proof to back us up...we can wait and see what happens years from now.

 

[pianola]

In the end, the blame is always going to come down on the faculty member. The lines are clear to faculty and we are instructed not to cross the line.

In both cases, the faculty member was fired.

Yeah, there was a situation in my undergrad where one of the faculty members (unmarried) slept with multiple students. There wasn't exactly a 'position of power' thing going on because he only taught pass-fail classes. Anyway, he was fired but only after other, multiple egregious violations of school code, and it was very conveniently done at the end of the semester (he wasn't removed immediately). One of the students he slept with was a friend of mine and I know the other teachers in the department 'looked at her funny' after the incident.

On the other hand, I have a friend who teaches at a community college and he says that the girls are ALWAYS hitting on him, trying to get him to raise the grade a bit. According to him, he's raised the grade in some cases (I don't know why he would do something silly like that except that he obviously felt that raising their grades was not jeopardizing his position at all). He's been teaching at this community college forever, and he's not likely to quit any time soon.

--
You know some of the posters on this thread have introduced the idea that "everyone cheats, it's just that some people get caught and others don't". I feel like I've seen enough unethical behavior to kind of believe that yeah, actually, there are a LOT of people in the world who cheat. I guess only 1% of them are either stupid enough or annoying enough to suffer the full-blown consequences.

Obviously, I don't know that everyone cheats, but I'm pretty sure that it's gotta be higher than 1% of applicants based on my own experience.

I can't remember ever having cheated myself except once in middle school when I got a little overzealous in a game of class jeopardy (I REALLY wanted this girl on my team to know the answer to the question so I whispered the answer to her). I got caught and I have NEVER been so humiliated in my entire life. So I learned my lesson pretty quickly after that. Better to be caught for something petty in 7th grade than for something petty as a junior in college, I guess...

 

[TRN1983]

Doctors today are no saints...people do worse and get out fine.

The girl had a 3.93 GPA from an Ivy League and cheated for two points. She did a bad thing and got punished greatly for it. Sometimes people make bad decisions. In the end, it all depends on the admissions committee. Lets say that she finished her school, did stellar on her MCATs, and explained the situation somewhere in her application. I can believe that some school in the US would accept her. It is not like either of us have any proof to back us up...we can wait and see what happens years from now.

I personally find it to be absolutely disgusting that someone who changed a single answer on a test is treated MORE harshly than a person who has had DUI events. I mean, people with DUI's get into medical school without too much issue from what I've seen on these forums. However, academic dishonesty (no matter what the degree) is almost an instant death-sentence. DUI = potentially killing people and showing a complete disrespect for life. Minor cheating = stupid and dishonest. Do we really need to bust out a scale for this, ESPECIALLY in the context of someone looking to go into the health profession?

And where is the line for academic dishonesty drawn? I constantly hear about how common it is for old tests to be all over schools. Some people get them, others don't. Is that cheating any less severe (its obviously less stupid) than what the person in the OP did? I'd say its more severe. People with the old tests may have seen 50%+ of the questions in advance... possibly 100%. And, there are bound to be people in the class who didn't see the tests.