Accepted to PA school... but having doubts.

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Kochanie

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Hello!
It's been so long since I've been here that I feel so much embarrassment looking at my old posts.

Quick Summary:
I got good grades my entire <18 life without trying, scored well on standardized exams, etc. But have always been a very anxious person. I spent more time procrastinating by worrying about something than doing that thing.

So... Going to a "top" university that graded on a bell curve was quite the wake up call and did pretty bad. Barely studied even when pulling all-nighters. I did do significantly better my senior year and then did a year of postbacc at a local university with 4.0 (Chem/Physics/Bio). I then did a few years of clinical research and lost the job due to funding.

With a "breakup" on top of that, I moved back and tried to pull myself together from a deep depression. I began to study for the PCAT because I just wanted anything to get on with my life. Did okay with the studying but did it all within a couple weeks and scored in the 98th percentile. I didn't even finish any section because I had not done any practice tests. I really knew pharmacy wasn't for me though... Then remembered PA school which I had brushed off and forgotten years ago because of the clinical experience I needed. Took the additional requirements I needed (full load) during the fall and got all As. Took the GRE and scored over 320.

I applied to a few schools very late in the cycle and got IIs for most. I even had to reject interviews that were on the same day but couldn't be rescheduled because they were the last ones offered. Put a deposit on a school I liked and have another interview at my top choice next week.. I was told my trend in grade improvement was stellar and not even a concern. My PS was praised and I was told by faculty that it stood out from the rest, even though I've always considered myself a terrible writer.

But. I still don't know... I've always wanted to be a doctor. My experience shows that. I'm surprised it hasn't hurt me in the cycle besides not being able to apply to most schools for not meeting requirements (classes/shadowing/etc).

Money isn't a factor either way. Not for school loans for med school or the lower income for PA.

I'm currently studying for the MCAT and considering it my last chance. The test has made me nervous since I was 20... I've never really tried and have nothing but time right now. But spending another year applying for a "what if" terrifies me.

I think my story shows how little "natural intelligence" means when you have the self confidence of a potato. I'm just working hard on having a daily routine where I don't procrastinate by getting in my head.

Any advice? WWYD? :/


I don't think stats are relevant to my situation but:
College: Some laboratory research experience (grant, etc). Plenty of hospital and clinical volunteering. Some leadership and volunteering with underprivileged.
After: Clinical coordinator and my name is on a few things but I did minimal data analysis/writing. Just literally everything else.
GPA: Haven't calculated in a while, but graduated with 3.2, probably same science (inflated by easy courses). Then the last 4 or so FT semesters has been all 4.0 in science courses.

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You need to do some soul searching I think. You obviously want to work in clinical care, but you can do that as a PA as well. Figure out why you want to be a doctor. You took the PCAT, then the GRE, now studying for MCAT...you’re indecisive, and strangers on SDN can’t decide for you. Unless you’re really really drawn to becoming a doctor then it’s probably not worth it. If you just want to work with patients you would probably be satisfied enough as PA, with all the added benefits that come along with starting your career sooner and having more flexibility. Med school + residency will be hard enough for the people who really are motivated to get through it, it’ll be even harder if you’re not.
 
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It sounds like you’re not ready for medical or pa or any additional school at this time. If you’re still procrastinating, not committed, etc. it’s not the time. You need to get the best job you can with the degree you have and figure out what you want to do with your life. You sound like some of my friends from families with significant means. No direction and little motivation induced by urgency of getting on with your life because you already have money. That’s great, but it’s not doing you any favors. Some went on to make their own fortune far in excess of their families, others do something like manage a bowling alley. (Really)
Soul search and figure out what you want to do for the next 20-30 years and then go do it.
 
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You need to do some soul searching I think. You obviously want to work in clinical care, but you can do that as a PA as well. Figure out why you want to be a doctor. You took the PCAT, then the GRE, now studying for MCAT...you’re indecisive, and strangers on SDN can’t decide for you. Unless you’re really really drawn to becoming a doctor then it’s probably not worth it. If you just want to work with patients you would probably be satisfied enough as PA, with all the added benefits that come along with starting your career sooner and having more flexibility. Med school + residency will be hard enough for the people who really are motivated to get through it, it’ll be even harder if you’re not.
Right.. The PCAT thing was just my mother annoying me since I "wasted" years so I studied instead of laying in bed. I just mentioned it because of score. I have never wanted to be a pharmacist.. As I mentioned in my post, I have always intended and wanted to be a doctor. I have never worked in a pharmacy, I volunteered at a hospital as a teen. I truly don't mean to be rude but that was just silly.
 
It sounds like you’re not ready for medical or pa or any additional school at this time. If you’re still procrastinating, not committed, etc. it’s not the time. You need to get the best job you can with the degree you have and figure out what you want to do with your life. You sound like some of my friends from families with significant means. No direction and little motivation induced by urgency of getting on with your life because you already have money. That’s great, but it’s not doing you any favors. Some went on to make their own fortune far in excess of their families, others do something like manage a bowling alley. (Really)
Soul search and figure out what you want to do for the next 20-30 years and then go do it.
I'm not sure what you mean by not committed. I spent over half my life now "committed" to medicine. Again, by procrastinating, I don't mean I went out to party. I would sit in front of a book for hours but not absorb any of it. I wish I wasn't as committed because then I would have given up years ago.

And where did I mention I come from significant means. I guess my immigrant farmer parents are hiding some lotto winnings from me...
 
I forgot how lovely SDN can be.:rolleyes:
 
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I'm not sure what you mean by not committed. I spent over half my life now "committed" to medicine. Again, by procrastinating, I don't mean I went out to party. I would sit in front of a book for hours but not absorb any of it. I wish I wasn't as committed because then I would have given up years ago.

And where did I mention I come from significant means. I guess my immigrant farmer parents are hiding some lotto winnings from me...
You’ve pursued 3 different career paths in the last few years, floundered in college, took multiple admissions tests, applied to schools late, gotten in and don’t plan to attend, etc. You're not committed to any career pathway.
That’s clear.
This attitude and approach is death in medicine. You’ll float along, then try to catch up, and struggle or maybe fail. If you get through medical school with your “natural intelligence” you’ll need to get it together for residency or you’ll be left behind again by people that are actually motivated and dedicated.
 
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It sounds like you’re not ready for medical or pa or any additional school at this time. If you’re still procrastinating, not committed, etc. it’s not the time. You need to get the best job you can with the degree you have and figure out what you want to do with your life. You sound like some of my friends from families with significant means. No direction and little motivation induced by urgency of getting on with your life because you already have money. That’s great, but it’s not doing you any favors. Some went on to make their own fortune far in excess of their families, others do something like manage a bowling alley. (Really)
Soul search and figure out what you want to do for the next 20-30 years and then go do it.
I understand your typical cynical SDN interpretation but no... I spent 14yo-26yo wanting to be a doctor. You can look at my old posts... I became severely depressed (situational, but it is is a problem I know I need to continue to address) after a bad breakup, losing job, etc. My mom pushed me to do something I did not want to because she wants me to just do something. Literally that's all. I thought of it as MCAT-lite and I've read of students doing that on this very website years ago. I knew if I failed that, I shouldn't even attempt the MCAT. So no, I don't even know how to apply to pharmacy school or what their AMCAS equivalent is.

I really just mean my mental health has prevented me from doing something I have been passionate for most of my life and I don't want to settle without trying.

Not "years" btw. I'm 27. I took the PCAT and applied to PA within months.
 
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If you’re struggling to even apply to medical school because of anxiety, depression or whatever else, I’m not sure you’re a good candidate for a career in medicine. It’s not going to get easier when you’ve got a mountain of work to do, independent, projects, actual patient care, the demands of a family, etc.
Medicine is a difficult career for those that don’t start with these problems.
If you get that sorted out better, maybe that’s the time to consider medicine.
Good luck.
 
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If you’re struggling to even apply to medical school because of anxiety, depression or whatever else, I’m not sure you’re a good candidate for a career in medicine. It’s not going to get easier when you’ve got a mountain of work to do, independent, projects, actual patient care, the demands of a family, etc.
Medicine is a difficult career for those that don’t start with these problems.
If you get that sorted out better, maybe that’s the time to consider medicine.
Good luck.
Thanks. :( I really should just accept that at this point.
 
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I understand your typical cynical SDN interpretation but no... I spent 14yo-26yo wanting to be a doctor. You can look at my old posts... I became severely depressed (situational, but it is is a problem I know I need to continue to address) after a bad breakup, losing job, etc. My mom pushed me to do something I did not want to because she wants me to just do something. Literally that's all. I thought of it as MCAT-lite and I've read of students doing that on this very website years ago. I knew if I failed that, I shouldn't even attempt the MCAT. So no, I don't even know how to apply to pharmacy school or what their AMCAS equivalent is.

I really just mean my mental health has prevented me from doing something I have been passionate for most of my life and I don't want to settle without trying.
Don’t take it personally. All we’re doing is giving advice based on the information YOU provided. You might think it’s harsh, but we’re not inside your head to explain away all the things you’ve done. The truth is, to an outside observer, it paints the picture of someone who is indecisive.

That’s really your biggest hurdle though. It’s not like on paper you have a bad application for medical school (based on the little info provided anyways). With a good MCAT and essays you’d probably get in somewhere. I think you just need to figure out if this is the route you want to go down.
 
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Don’t take it personally. All we’re doing is giving advice based on the information YOU provided. You might think it’s harsh, but we’re not inside your head to explain away all the things you’ve done. The truth is, to an outside observer, it paints the picture of someone who is indecisive.

That’s really your biggest hurdle though. It’s not like on paper you have a bad application for medical school (based on the little info provided anyways). With a good MCAT and essays you’d probably get in somewhere. I think you just need to figure out if this is the route you want to go down.
Yeah. I thought I was doing so by mentioning how everything I've done in my adulthood was to get into med school and settling for less is giving me cold feet. But I get it completely. I have gotten a lot better with anxiety/depression which is what I tried to paint with the PCAT/GRE/post-bacc but it's probably not the time, if ever. I'll continue to study for the MCAT and see how it goes.
 
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Would going to PA school be used against me years from now if I were to apply?
 
Would going to PA school be used against me years from now if I were to apply?
You would have to spend time explaining your career path, but I can't imagine it being seen poorly if you can craft a solid narrative.

The main issue would be the fact that you're spending around $80k of tuition on a PA program to then apply to medical school to then pay another $200k or so in tuition. The blow is softened if you work for PA for a few years, but if I were in your position, it would feel like a waste of time to go through the PA route/working as a PA if my goal from the very beginning is to become a physician.
 
You need to ask yourself at some point, what being an MD/DO will do for you and your personal aspirations compared to a PA. You seemed to have bounced around a lot over the past few years and had some personal barriers make your path forward less traditional. PAs can do a lot in clinical work, are well compensated, and have a lot of flexibility in their future career paths. A lot of people would kill to be in PA school. Take the time and ask yourself, why you would want to be an MD/DO and if you would be happy working as a PA. There is a lot of overlap in some regards and large differences in others. There's a point in your life where you need to commit to a path and give it your all.
 
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You need to ask yourself at some point, what being an MD/DO will do for you and your personal aspirations compared to a PA. You seemed to have bounced around a lot over the past few years and had some personal barriers make your path forward less traditional. PAs can do a lot in clinical work, are well compensated, and have a lot of flexibility in their future career paths. A lot of people would kill to be in PA school. Take the time and ask yourself, why you would want to be an MD/DO and if you would be happy working as a PA. There is a lot of overlap in some regards and large differences in others. There's a point in your life where you need to commit to a path and give it your all.
Yes, which is why I just "gave up" and decided to do PA. Not that my heart was not committed. I knew I needed to improve grades after college so I did that for a year then I did clinical research for two. I always intended to apply to med school but I just have never given it my all and taken the MCAT in fear of failure.
 
You would have to spend time explaining your career path, but I can't imagine it being seen poorly if you can craft a solid narrative.

The main issue would be the fact that you're spending around $80k of tuition on a PA program to then apply to medical school to then pay another $200k or so in tuition. The blow is softened if you work for PA for a few years, but if I were in your position, it would feel like a waste of time to go through the PA route/working as a PA if my goal from the very beginning is to become a physician.
I agree and that's why I'm conflicted. That being said, I haven't even taken it or cracked open a book yet besides get started on memorization. I'll give it my all and see when my score comes back. Maybe I can back out last second and apply to DO schools.
 
I also am just a little worried if I do find out I made a horrible decision by going to PA school, it would be used against me. I know it often is for nurses/pharmacists/other areas when they have a change of heart. I'll shadow some PAs as well because I have never even met one lol.
 
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Obligatory “This is not medical advice” but have you considered therapy? Sounds like you have some issues to work through no matter what path you choose. Anxiety and procrastination will sink any medical student, raw intelligence be damned.

Based on your test scores, you are definitely smart enough to do medical school but that is only a piece of the puzzle. I have been a 98-99th percentile test taker my entire life (nice humble brag I know), SAT/ACT/AP/MCAT, all of that stuff, but my SO who is “only” a 85-90th percentile test taker beats me in most medical school classes. Work ethic, stable mental health, and perseverance are a lot more important than raw intelligence in medicine if you want to excel/be top quartile m. Once you pass the intelligence threshold to be able to learn the material well of course, which is somewhere around a 500-505 MCAT in my opinion. People pass medical school with lower MCAT, but they rarely excel.
 
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You absolutely need to get your mental health in order first off. Just from reading your posts you come off like someone with a depressed affect, and as a PA you'll be working closely with physicians regardless of what setting you choose to practice in (well, with some exceptions). And if you come off like Eeyore you're not going to last very long in a job - the last thing I want to do is be giving emotional support to my PA all day long while I try and see patients.

Once you've done that, you can look more closely as to whether you want to do PA school or stick on the path to med school.
 
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Also PA school is less difficult than medical school but it’s not easy. Probably more difficult than undergrad for most people, and it sounds like undergrad was really tough for you. Which is fine—I definitely didn’t get a 4.0 either and ended up at an MD school, but don’t jump out of an airplane before you have made sure you’re really ready.
 
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I know how you feel. I skipped around from undergrad, to nursing school, to CRNA school, all the while knowing they weren’t for me. Had to do a lot of soul-searching and talking with my family. I don’t know about you but the itch to go to medical school never left even with all the crap I was piling on. If you want it and I mean REALLY WANT IT, you’ll figure it out. I quit CRNA school, got a job, studied for the MCAT and am now almost in my 3rd year. Realize though the path is long and there are much easier things to do that don’t require even close as much effort and still make a great living. If you’re on the fence you don’t want it bad enough. Dig deep and ask what you want out of life.
 
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you applied to PA school without ever shadowing the profession? let alone ever meeting one?
This. If you've never even met a PA or shadowed one then you don't truly know what the profession is like on the day to day basis. I agree with everyone else who is saying to take some time to figure out what you really want in life, you're only 27 you still have plenty of time.
 
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Why do you want to be a doctor and not a PA? I think that’s a very important question to ask yourself, because it seems to me that you may not have the most informed perspective on what medicine really is like. There are definitely huge advantages to having an MD and going through residency, and frankly I think a lot of PAs fresh out of school are not prepared to practice the way they are often hired to practice. However, you’ve mentioned not having much clinical experience, which makes me worry that you may not really know what you’re really getting into in terms of either PA or medical school
 
ETA: I do see you have had some volunteer experience and worked in clinical research. It’s really hard to know what being a healthcare professional is like until you are one, even in medical school I didn’t really get it
 
Obligatory “This is not medical advice” but have you considered therapy? Sounds like you have some issues to work through no matter what path you choose. Anxiety and procrastination will sink any medical student, raw intelligence be damned.

Based on your test scores, you are definitely smart enough to do medical school but that is only a piece of the puzzle. I have been a 98-99th percentile test taker my entire life (nice humble brag I know), SAT/ACT/AP/MCAT, all of that stuff, but my SO who is “only” a 85-90th percentile test taker beats me in most medical school classes. Work ethic, stable mental health, and perseverance are a lot more important than raw intelligence in medicine if you want to excel/be top quartile m. Once you pass the intelligence threshold to be able to learn the material well of course, which is somewhere around a 500-505 MCAT in my opinion. People pass medical school with lower MCAT, but they rarely excel.
Yes! After months of trying to get in, I had an intake and have an appointment for psych who will even do a cheek swab to find out which medications may work for me (SSRIs were like sugar pills to me). And therapy goes along with it and will have my first session Friday. :)

"Natural intelligence" is definitely not as important as hard work and studying skills. I've learned that the hard way. :')
 
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you applied to PA school without ever shadowing the profession? let alone ever meeting one?
By the time I decided to apply, COVID was strong and pretty much impossible to shadow. I've met some volunteering but I wish I had the opportunity to officially shadow.
 
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You absolutely need to get your mental health in order first off. Just from reading your posts you come off like someone with a depressed affect, and as a PA you'll be working closely with physicians regardless of what setting you choose to practice in (well, with some exceptions). And if you come off like Eeyore you're not going to last very long in a job - the last thing I want to do is be giving emotional support to my PA all day long while I try and see patients.

Once you've done that, you can look more closely as to whether you want to do PA school or stick on the path to med school.
Haha. Yeah, I'm kind of an enigma. My mental health has never affected my work with patients and I'm a pretty bubbly (if not spastic - ADHD) person naturally. I only ever posted on SDN every time I had a set back with school so I understand how that can come off.
 
By the time I decided to apply, COVID was strong and pretty much impossible to shadow. I've met some volunteering but I wish I had the opportunity to officially shadow.
Thank you. I am trying and hopefully I'll be able to figure it out in the next few months.
 
ETA: I do see you have had some volunteer experience and worked in clinical research. It’s really hard to know what being a healthcare professional is like until you are one, even in medical school I didn’t really get it
Yeah... I have volunteered in a clinical settings for half my life now (obviously more extensively as an adult) and then worked in clinical research directly with physicians. I get that though. This is so hard. :(
 
Also PA school is less difficult than medical school but it’s not easy. Probably more difficult than undergrad for most people, and it sounds like undergrad was really tough for you. Which is fine—I definitely didn’t get a 4.0 either and ended up at an MD school, but don’t jump out of an airplane before you have made sure you’re really ready.
My first 3 years were awful then I made Dean's List my senior year and have never gotten below an A since then (about 2 years of full time classes post-bacc).
 
I think sticking to a MCAT study schedule (or at least actually studying at designated times) and then taking it after a month is a good test. I don't mind dedicating all my time to studying in school and know I can master any material, the issue is the material sinking with a billion jumbled thoughts racing in my head. :(
 
Just started getting help for my issues, just about to start studying for MCAT, and PA school starts in 4 months. It's unfortunate I only work well under pressure. :laugh:
 
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Don't worry about the judgemental comments on here, that's just SDN but maybe try premeddit. Imo, I think you should do PA because there's no guarrantee you will get into medical school, so having a PA degree will really allow you to fall back on something. You don't want to end up burnt out from getting rejected by medical schools and ending up with no MD/DO degree or PA-C degree. If you decide to go that route make sure you do well in your PA school classes as PA school is very tough. You're very lucky to have gotten an acceptance, it's a wonderful career.

Another tip is to imagine yourself in 5 years, would you want to work, and leave work at work, and travel, spend time on hobbies and enjoy life/settle down? If yes, then definitely stay away from medical school. If you count the years in trying to get into medical school with post bacc's or SMP's and then the application cycles, then 4 years med school, 4+ years of residency, plus years of attending salary going fully towards student loans then that's like at least 12 years from now.
 
Don't worry about the judgemental comments on here, that's just SDN but maybe try premeddit. Imo, I think you should do PA because there's no guarrantee you will get into medical school, so having a PA degree will really allow you to fall back on something. You don't want to end up burnt out from getting rejected by medical schools and ending up with no MD/DO degree or PA-C degree. If you decide to go that route make sure you do well in your PA school classes as PA school is very tough. You're very lucky to have gotten an acceptance, it's a wonderful career.

Another tip is to imagine yourself in 5 years, would you want to work, and leave work at work, and travel, spend time on hobbies and enjoy life/settle down? If yes, then definitely stay away from medical school. If you count the years in trying to get into medical school with post bacc's or SMP's and then the application cycles, then 4 years med school, 4+ years of residency, plus years of attending salary going fully towards student loans then that's like at least 12 years from now.
If you average sdn with /r/premed you actually might get decent advice. SDN is super serious and pessimistic, probably because we can get away with it since no downvotes, and premeddit is hilariously optimistic to the point of setting people up for brutal failure.

Good advice and bad advice on either site though. But that’s life advice in general. Ask 10 people for advice and you’ll get 11 different answers.
 
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as others have mentioned I really feel like you need to get your mental health in order. there's not much of a point to continue before that if youre gonna struggle again and repeat the cycle. If youre able to get your mental health under control with therapy/treatment whatever it is you need that will likely help you determine what path it is that you should take in life. I would highly recommend that before making any big decisions right now
 
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Just started getting help for my issues, just about to start studying for MCAT, and PA school starts in 4 months. It's unfortunate I only work well under pressure. :laugh:
If your heart isn't set, you should probably give up your seat to a lucky applicant.
 
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If your heart isn't set, you should probably give up your seat to a lucky applicant.
That’s a poor argument. It’s like telling a sick patient, “if you’re not prepared to fight, you should give up your heart, lungs, and kidneys to a lucky transplant patient.”
 
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That’s a poor argument. It’s like telling a sick patient, “if you’re not prepared to fight, you should give up your heart, lungs, and kidneys to a lucky transplant patient.”
Hard no. The OP's posts reek of ignorance and outright arrogance. The OP would be wasting the taxpayers' money (assuming its a state school), the faculty's time and energy, taking a seat from someone who's dying to get in, and is acting very selfishly. "Look at me, I have it so hard! I have to start PA school in 4 months but I'm going to try taking the MCAT after only a month of studying so that I can noncommittally attempt to feel less inferior to all the doctors!! Maybe I'll try out therapy too? LOL." Bruh...come on.

The OP needs to grow up before they're ready to enter medicine or PA. They lack respect for their peers, faculty, school, and the medical training process in general. Could you imagine turning to your classmate/professor/parents on the first day of PA school and telling them that you wish you weren't in PA school because you wanted to be a doctor instead? If I was a PA student, I'd hate to have them as a classmate. Act like this and you'll be ostracized by EVERYONE so flippin' fast...

The decision to enter these professions can't be wishy-washy. If there's anything I've learned (admittingly, sometimes painfully) in my 1st year of med school is that this is a life-altering decision. Additionally, you will not succeed without drive. Sorry, but the OP but ain't got the right stuff yet. Give up your seat, take a gap year or two, prepare for the MCAT like you mean it, then apply to medical school. OR go to PA school and be freakin' stoked.
 
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Do what's going to satisfy you. It seems like you're reacting to external pressures (parents, societal ideals, etc) rather than doing what you want. It feels like you're here because you want SDN to provide another external pressure for you. If you don't want to do PA right out of the gate, it's probably not the best idea. But if you feel like you just want to get a move on and start your career then maybe it's a good option. You need to think about your values and interests, then make the decision and take ownership of it. If you decide based on what your mom thinks or what SDN says, you are likely to have regrets down the line and no way to calibrate your internal gut instincts based off of it, bc you let someone else decide. You're the only expert on yourself and your situation so you need to trust yourself!

But to answer your question more directly, if I were you I would apply to medical school.
 
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You said upive always wanted to be a doctor, so go be a doctor.
 
If you want to get a move on with your life/career, I think you should just go to PA school. They have seriously sweet gigs, regularly get paid paid 100k+ (sometimes close to 150k if you enter a surgical department), get to provide direct patient care, amazing shift schedules in many specialties without the hellhole that is residency etc. There are much worse situations to be in in life OP.
 
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OMG... I got 3 more IIs to PA school since I wrote this post. Got IIs to pretty much every school I applied to (one even without a completed app). Now I'm even more conflicted because clearly I rock! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
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OMG... I got 3 more IIs to PA school since I wrote this post. Got IIs to pretty much every school I applied to (one even without a completed app). Now I'm even more conflicted because clearly I rock! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
This has gotta be a troll thread, right?
 
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OMG... I got 3 more IIs to PA school since I wrote this post. Got IIs to pretty much every school I applied to (one even without a completed app). Now I'm even more conflicted because clearly I rock! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Genuinely curious, what do you even talk about in your interviews with these PA schools? You've never shadowed a PA and you don't sound like you want to do PA school at all in this post. What're you telling them during the interviews?
 
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Genuinely curious, what do you even talk about in your interviews with these PA schools? You've never shadowed a PA and you don't sound like you want to do PA school at all in this post. What're you telling them during the interviews?
It’s not like I don’t want to be a PA. I see the pros and cons. By shadowing I meant I don’t have formal shadowing. But I worked in a clinic where I was the patient’s shadow and did observe and collaborated with PAs all the time. I just think I would benefit from a 1-1 shadowing which corona has made almost impossible (I think my state is more strict with this?).
 
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