ACOM vs LUCOM vs WCUCOM

[orange-applicant-8]

Suppose that you received acceptance from all three schools (ACOM, LUCOM and WCUCOM), which school would you choose, and why?

Thank you.

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[Cath Up]

Suppose that you received acceptance from all three schools (ACOM, LUCOM and WCUCOM), which school would you choose, and why?

Thank you.

Beware! My opinion.

I would choose ACOM or forego a cycle to not attend the other two programs (though notably would not have gotten to the point where they would have accepted me, over concern that turning down an acceptance would work against me in the future cycle in some way).

ACOM is affiliated with a regional medical center and seems to have relatively superior clinical rotations. ACOM seems to be a very supportive environment with solid pre-clinical education.

WCUCOM seems to have poorer clinical rotations and does not seem to support students taking USMLE.

LUCOM is a religious institution that has numerous strict rules consistent with a conservative Christian institution. I have heard they have very high student attrition. Regardless of one's spiritual beliefs, I do not think it is desirable to formally affiliate clinical education with spirituality. It does not foster a diverse environment for people of different faiths, for one thing.

 

[Wjldenver]

Suppose that you received acceptance from all three schools (ACOM, LUCOM and WCUCOM), which school would you choose, and why?

Thank you.

Easy... Here is the ranking in order:
1. ACOM—Good clinical rotations.
2. WCOM—Relatively low cost and their board scores are increasing quite a bit over previous classes.
3. LUCOM—Do a search on this site. In addition, 16 students at this school failed the COMLEX. Do a search on LUCOM’s site to verify this info.

 

[orange-applicant-8]

Easy... Here is the ranking in order:
1. ACOM—Good clinical rotations.
2. WCOM—Relatively low cost and their board scores are increasing quite a bit over previous classes.
3. LUCOM—Do a search on this site. In addition, 16 students at this school failed the COMLEX. Do a search on LUCOM’s site to verify this info.

Where did you get the information that 16 students failed the COMPEX at LUCOM?

 

[orange-applicant-8]

Beware! My opinion.

I would choose ACOM or forego a cycle to not attend the other two programs (though notably would not have gotten to the point where they would have accepted me, over concern that turning down an acceptance would work against me in the future cycle in some way).

ACOM is affiliated with a regional medical center and seems to have relatively superior clinical rotations. ACOM seems to be a very supportive environment with solid pre-clinical education.

WCUCOM seems to have poorer clinical rotations and does not seem to support students taking USMLE.

LUCOM is a religious institution that has numerous strict rules consistent with a conservative Christian institution. I have heard they have very high student attrition. Regardless of one's spiritual beliefs, I do not think it is desirable to formally affiliate clinical education with spirituality. It does not foster a diverse environment for people of different faiths, for one thing.

Besides LUCOM being a christian school, do you see any more negatives?
Also, speaking of WCUCOM and USMLE, do osteopathic medical students need to take USMLE? Isn't COMLEX enough to get residencies?

 

[de Ribas]

Besides LUCOM being a christian school, do you see any more negatives?
Also, speaking of WCUCOM and USMLE, do osteopathic medical students need to take USMLE? Isn't COMLEX enough to get residencies?

if you want to go to M.D. residencies

 

[Wjldenver]

Where did you get the information that 16 students failed the COMPEX at LUCOM?

Here is the link related to LUCOM COMLEX Scores:

Academics: COMLEX Results | College Of Osteopathic Medicine | Liberty University

...And since you will be graduating after the residency merger is complete, taking the USMLE will help you match wise assuming you do decent on it. More and more DO grads will choose to take the USMLE going forward to give them a competitive advantage match wise. (And no, the COMLEX is not going away. Therefore, you should prepare for both tests.)

 

[MADD!!!]

ACOM hands down.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Isn't COMLEX enough to get residencies?

Depends on the field and tier residency. Competitive programs in any field will most likely want the USMLE and for competitive fields it is essentially a requirement.

OP, ACOM hands down.

 

[TheWolfOfMainStreet]

I'd say ACOM too.

 

[Goro]

Suppose that you received acceptance from all three schools (ACOM, LUCOM and WCUCOM), which school would you choose, and why?

Thank you.

NOT LUCOM.
Of the other two, do they have required lecture attendance, if one has, that's a turn off.

I can't remember offhand if these schools have graduated any classes yet. If they have, at least look at match lists, to see % of Primary Care vs specialties,and even more nebulous, how many University hospitals vs community hospitals. That is a VERY rough rule of thumb as to quality of residencies.

 

[StudentDoctorAnon]

I would caution against using % of Primary Care vs specialties as a deciding factor unless you are looking to do something super specific, in which case, yeah go look for the place that has the highest amount of those as a percentage graduating and has an established pipeline that clearly sets it apart from other schools. However, I think you will find if you go look at the numbers, is that all schools, DO's and MD's send roughly the same percentage of their class into the same percentage field as the national average. This notion that MDs will go into specialty fields at a higher rate, or have an easier path just isn't factually true based upon recent residency match numbers. The same goes for DO school 'A' vs school 'B'.


I’ll echo some advice given to me by several people I am close with who have recently graduated and currently residents at various places and also from a surgeon I worked for who served on several residency selection committees and even as a director himself at a few hospitals:

1) Choose the school YOU liked the most when you interviewed or toured it. Did you like the atmosphere? Did you like the faculty? Did you like the students? Did you like the town or area it was located? Etc. Weigh out the pros and cons. You will spend your next few years there so you better like it.

2) In the long run your biggest limitation to where you wind up is yourself. For some people that is a hard pill to swallow, but it is the truth. If you go to a program, fart around and not take it serious, not spend your breaks wisely like staying ahead or preparing for boards and then do mediocre or average on your boards, not reach out to hub site / future residency programs etc, and then find yourself scrambling to match into a not so competitive spot, in a location you're not happy with, then whose fault is it really?..........

3) If any school was just absolutely terrible then it would lose its accreditation. Also, no one on this message board can truly say that one school is worse/better than another, because no one on this message board has successfully completed programs at both schools. "Good" schools make bad doctors, and "Bad" schools make good doctors all the time.

4) Regardless of what you do, if it is competitive, then you will have to do the leg work to set yourself apart. You're going to have to seek out the RD's a year or two before you match. That's just Networking 101. Get face time with them and then build and maintain that relationship. Build and maintain relationships at the school you attend with your profs and admins. You never know, they may know someone that can help you out later down the road. It's not that difficult to schedule an appointment to go preview a program somewhere, and it’s not difficult to occasionally check in with that director to maintain a relationship if you are passionate about it. The best way to position yourself for success is to outwork your competition.

I'm a student at WCUCOM and I know my school is not widely known, as it is still fairly new (started in 2010), but even students in that first class (graduated 2014) were able to match into competitive fields like surgery, anesthesia, and derm with no prior alumni to lean on as a reference. They had to work for it, but the avenue was there, and they were able to do what they wanted. I'm proud of the school I attend and would recommend it to anyone who is interested. I know several students at ACOM that were in my graduate program, and they love their school too. I do not know anyone at LUCOM, but I have a family member up around there that works in a regional hospital with several of their doctors and she doesn't have anything negative to say about them.

Long story short…go with what you want.

If you want to know more about WCUCOM then feel free to PM me. If there is something specific you want to know about ACOM then PM me as well and I will pass that along to my friends over there and get back to you.
That goes for anyone else reading this*

I remember how stressful it was when I was in your position last year and I wish you the best of luck with making your decision!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

This notion that MDs will go into specialty fields at a higher rate, or have an easier path just isn't factually true based upon recent residency match numbers.

It is, in fact, factually true. I agree with your points 1 and 2

 

[Cath Up]

I would caution against using % of Primary Care vs specialties as a deciding factor unless you are looking to do something super specific, in which case, yeah go look for the place that has the highest amount of those as a percentage graduating and has an established pipeline that clearly sets it apart from other schools. However, I think you will find if you go look at the numbers, is that all schools, DO's and MD's send roughly the same percentage of their class into the same percentage field as the national average. This notion that MDs will go into specialty fields at a higher rate, or have an easier path just isn't factually true based upon recent residency match numbers. The same goes for DO school 'A' vs school 'B'.


I’ll echo some advice given to me by several people I am close with who have recently graduated and currently residents at various places and also from a surgeon I worked for who served on several residency selection committees and even as a director himself at a few hospitals:

1) Choose the school YOU liked the most when you interviewed or toured it. Did you like the atmosphere? Did you like the faculty? Did you like the students? Did you like the town or area it was located? Etc. Weigh out the pros and cons. You will spend your next few years there so you better like it.

2) In the long run your biggest limitation to where you wind up is yourself. For some people that is a hard pill to swallow, but it is the truth. If you go to a program, fart around and not take it serious, not spend your breaks wisely like staying ahead or preparing for boards and then do mediocre or average on your boards, not reach out to hub site / future residency programs etc, and then find yourself scrambling to match into a not so competitive spot, in a location you're not happy with, then whose fault is it really?..........

3) If any school was just absolutely terrible then it would lose its accreditation. Also, no one on this message board can truly say that one school is worse/better than another, because no one on this message board has successfully completed programs at both schools. "Good" schools make bad doctors, and "Bad" schools make good doctors all the time.

4) Regardless of what you do, if it is competitive, then you will have to do the leg work to set yourself apart. You're going to have to seek out the RD's a year or two before you match. That's just Networking 101. Get face time with them and then build and maintain that relationship. Build and maintain relationships at the school you attend with your profs and admins. You never know, they may know someone that can help you out later down the road. It's not that difficult to schedule an appointment to go preview a program somewhere, and it’s not difficult to occasionally check in with that director to maintain a relationship if you are passionate about it. The best way to position yourself for success is to outwork your competition.

I'm a student at WCUCOM and I know my school is not widely known, as it is still fairly new (started in 2010), but even students in that first class (graduated 2014) were able to match into competitive fields like surgery, anesthesia, and derm with no prior alumni to lean on as a reference. They had to work for it, but the avenue was there, and they were able to do what they wanted. I'm proud of the school I attend and would recommend it to anyone who is interested. I know several students at ACOM that were in my graduate program, and they love their school too. I do not know anyone at LUCOM, but I have a family member up around there that works in a regional hospital with several of their doctors and she doesn't have anything negative to say about them.

Long story short…go with what you want.

If you want to know more about WCUCOM then feel free to PM me. If there is something specific you want to know about ACOM then PM me as well and I will pass that along to my friends over there and get back to you.
That goes for anyone else reading this*

I remember how stressful it was when I was in your position last year and I wish you the best of luck with making your decision!

This is a mostly reassuring MD/DO match comparison. Much better/more varied for DOs than I anticipated. However I think it is important to point out the creator of this document made at least 1 deceptive claim about ortho surgery.

5.7% of DOs in the AOA match made it into ortho surgery, while 2.7% of MDs matched ortho surgery in the ACGME match. Yes, 5.7 > 2.7, but sample size is much smaller for the AOA match, and the spots were protected for DOs. In the ACGME match, DOs matched poorly compared to MDs (.2% vs 2.7%).

Otherwise, things seem to be pretty similar across the board in terms of match rate which I think is great!

 

[StudentDoctorAnon]

@ Parselea......Not trying to be defensive, just want to get a better understanding here......How is it deceptive? Kind of a silly statement..... but if the numbers are the numbers then that is what they are, right? The sample size is indeed smaller for the DO match, but that's because in general (in terms of total population) there are 30000 MD's vs a few thousand DO's. That's why I think percentages are a more accurate thing to consider than raw numbers.

@AnatomyGrey12.... I see that train of thought thrown around here all the time without any data to back it up. It's like some of the other silly things people read on here and take as gospel. If the current residency match numbers are not a good indicator of specialties being distributed pretty much equally between the two designations, then what is?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

@ Parselea......Not trying to be defensive, just want to get a better understanding here......How is it deceptive? Kind of a silly statement..... but if the numbers are the numbers then that is what they are, right? The sample size is indeed smaller for the DO match, but that's because in general (in terms of total population) there are 30000 MD's vs a few thousand DO's. That's why I think percentages are a more accurate thing to consider than raw numbers.

@AnatomyGrey12.... I see that train of thought thrown around here all the time without any data to back it up. It's like some of the other silly things people read on here and take as gospel. If the current residency match numbers are not a good indicator of specialties being distributed pretty much equally between the two designations, then what is?

Your comparison chart above is completely worthless and is garbage. The DO numbers ONLY include the AOA match. Seeing as a very large chunk of DOs are doing the NRMP match of which the vast majority is primary care it then skews your given numbers quite a bit. The truth is that specialties vs PC for DOs is about 40/60 maybe closer to 50/50 at the very best. For MD it is 70/30 or greater.

The only numbers that give an accurate picture are the percentages of the DO population in the super competitive fields such as ortho or ENT seeing that a minuscule amount (n= 0-5) match NRMP. Yes, it actually used to be easier on the DO side to become an orthopedic surgeon which is no longer the case.

On top of this the merger and the large increase of incoming osteopathic students makes your point moot as a higher and higher percentage of DOs will be entering primary care.

 

[Cath Up]

@ Parselea......Not trying to be defensive, just want to get a better understanding here......How is it deceptive? Kind of a silly statement..... but if the numbers are the numbers then that is what they are, right? The sample size is indeed smaller for the DO match, but that's because in general (in terms of total population) there are 30000 MD's vs a few thousand DO's. That's why I think percentages are a more accurate thing to consider than raw numbers.

@AnatomyGrey12.... I see that train of thought thrown around here all the time without any data to back it up. It's like some of the other silly things people read on here and take as gospel. If the current residency match numbers are not a good indicator of specialties being distributed pretty much equally between the two designations, then what is?

You’re right that maybe it was a silly statement. I think what I meant is that comparing the AOA ortho match numbers for DOs to ACGME MDs does not really answer the questions that I am interested in when looking at this (as an accepted DO student):

1. Do proportionally as many DOs go into ortho surgery as MDs?
...the comparison made in the chart indicates that more DOs do, but this is not the case, as the true proportion is the combination of AOA and ACGME, which is not presented.

2. What will the future of the match look like (once everything will be ACGME) if we extrapolate from this data?
...for most specialties it looks like it could potentially be pretty good (better existing numbers than I thought), but the very low DO ortho numbers indicate that DOs may not do as well in that specialty once everything is ACGME.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

1. Do proportionally as many DOs go into ortho surgery as MDs?
...the comparison made in the chart indicates that more DOs do, but this is not the case, as the true proportion is the combination of AOA and ACGME, which is not presented.

Actually it used to be easier to do ortho from the DO side as the AOA match had a disproportionate number of spots. The rapid growth of DO schools, and now the merger, make this fact obsolete.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

2. What will the future of the match look like (once everything will be ACGME) if we extrapolate from this data?
...for most specialties it looks like it could potentially be pretty good (better existing numbers than I thought), but the very low DO ortho numbers indicate that DOs may not do as well in that specialty once everything is ACGME.

It is impossible to extrapolate anything from this data to post merger matching

 

[MADD!!!]

Actually it used to be easier to do ortho from the DO side as the AOA match had a disproportionate number of spots. The rapid growth of DO schools, and now the merger, make this fact obsolete.

Ehh still debatable low key. Some PD's of AOA programs want to keep their programs DO heavy and we won't know the actual effects of the merger until it's in full effect.

side note: a FM residency that has historically been an osteopathic teaching hospital told me that for MD applicants they are mandating 160 hrs of OMM that they must learn in order to apply to their program. I asked them how they'd get such training and they said "that's for them to figure out, not us." Point is there's still A LOT of conjecture at this point. All we can say is that getting a competitive specialty will definitely get worse, but we don't know by how much even roughly.

(My point in mentioning the FM residency case is that we don't know how these AOA programs are going to handle MD applicants. Some may be super OMM heavy in residency and want to retain that aspect).

 

[Wiggly Tuff Da Ruff]

ACOM hands down.

you in there bro?

 

[MADD!!!]

you in there bro?

Nope, but I interviewed there. One reason I fell in love with the school was the students. Everyone there just seemed so happy to be in med school, it was awesome. Very laid back atmosphere. Second pro--- those chairs!!! I want to buy one for my room but they're like $500+ each.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Some PD's of AOA programs want to keep their programs DO heavy and we won't know the actual effects of the merger until it's in full effect.

Even if you completely neglect the merger the additional 2000 DO students that will be graduating in the next few years will drive competition up by itself. Yes while I am optimistic a pretty good number of AOA programs will continue to be DO only it is completely unrealistic they all will. Competition for all residencies is going to go up. Just how much is yet to be determined

 

[Cath Up]

It is impossible to extrapolate anything from this data to post merger matching

Disagree with the essence of what you’re saying. Maybe extrapolate is the wrong word, but the fact that some DOs match into ACGME specialties and have in the past can make one pretty confident that this will continue to happen, given that the pool of applicants is only really proportionally adding DOs.

 

[Cath Up]

Actually it used to be easier to do ortho from the DO side as the AOA match had a disproportionate number of spots. The rapid growth of DO schools, and now the merger, make this fact obsolete.

Interesting to know that, though.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Disagree with the essence of what you’re saying. Maybe extrapolate is the wrong word, but the fact that some DOs match into ACGME specialties and have in the past can make one pretty confident that this will continue to happen, given that the pool of applicants is only really proportionally adding DOs.

A couple things, yes it is impossible to assume anything about the merger given the presented statistics. I never said that DO friendly specialties will not continue to take DOs. I do want to emphasize exactly how much the bolded is going to affect the future of DO matching, the match statistics are only going to go down with the increased competition and this is completely neglecting the fact that MD expansion has mirrored DO expansion so not only are you adding a boatload of new DOs but a sizable number of new MDs without increasing residency spots.

It is also important to consider that certain fields only take large amounts of DOs because of decreased interest from USMDs, with anesthesia and radiology being prime examples. As they regain traction in the MD world it will become harder for DOs to match them at the consistent clip that they do now. In fact, radiology is back on the uptick and there are numerous reports of very solid candidates getting fewer interviews than applicants of their caliber would have gotten in the past. This eb and flow in certain fields also makes it difficult to accurately asses DOs chances of matching into those fields too far into the future. Another example is EM, as they get more and more high quality MD applicants DOs will get pushed down the rank lists.

 

[StudentDoctorAnon]

A couple things, yes it is impossible to assume anything about the merger given the presented statistics. I never said that DO friendly specialties will not continue to take DOs. I do want to emphasize exactly how much the bolded is going to affect the future of DO matching, the match statistics are only going to go down with the increased competition and this is completely neglecting the fact that MD expansion has mirrored DO expansion so not only are you adding a boatload of new DOs but a sizable number of new MDs without increasing residency spots.

It is also important to consider that certain fields only take large amounts of DOs because of decreased interest from USMDs, with anesthesia and radiology being prime examples. As they regain traction in the MD world it will become harder for DOs to match them at the consistent clip that they do now. In fact, radiology is back on the uptick and there are numerous reports of very solid candidates getting fewer interviews than applicants of their caliber would have gotten in the past. This eb and flow in certain fields also makes it difficult to accurately asses DOs chances of matching into those fields too far into the future. Another example is EM, as they get more and more high quality MD applicants DOs will get pushed down the rank lists.

You bring up valid arguments for a lot of stuff, but at least from what I've seen in my state, EM is experience quite the opposite trend. EM is becoming increasingly more DO friendly, especially in the newer EM residency programs. I think its hard to make blanket statements because regional differences exist in each specialty based upon local demand for that specialty as it is dictated by regional demographics and availability of qualified physicians. Also, our state's only DO program has now graduated 3 classes so the major and smaller regional hospitals are becoming more DO friendly, and we are providing solid competition to the only other medical school in the state. The other medical school in the state is an MD program, and some of our first year graduates that matched in EM there were really good, and as a result the current RD has a high opinion of our graduates.