Advantages and Disadvantages of Three Year Medical Schools

[Dhooy7]

What's your thoughts on 3-year medical schools if you are pretty set on pursuing internal medicine and nothing specialized? What are some of the advantages vs disadvantages I need to weigh? I don't know enough about them.

Here's a list I found:
The Three-Year MD Program | Collegiate Gateway LLC

I think Penn State has one and MCW. Any others? Still trying to figure out MD schools and 3-year schools are very appealing to me.

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[Gilakend]

Some you can't apply directly to though, that should be noted. For example Penn State's you have to first be accepted into their normal med school, you have to choose to go there, then you get to apply for the programs and get into those. From what I was told.

 

[WIMNFamilyMed]

Mcw-green Bay had only 16/25 people match this year (their first matching year), as 7 failed step and others are taking a fourth year in Milwaukee which is an option but not guaranteed. I’d watch how residency match goes for those programs. I might consider it better than DO in the near future, but with current passing rates I would say it’s similar - not ideal but you’re still a doctor [well if you’re one of the 2/3 who pass step]. I would avoid it unless it’s your only acceptance.

 

[Dhooy7]

Mcw-green Bay had only 16/25 people match this year (their first matching year), as 7 failed step and others are taking a fourth year in Milwaukee which is an option but not guaranteed. I’d watch how residency match goes for those programs. I might consider it better than DO in the near future, but with current passing rates I would say it’s similar - not ideal but you’re still a doctor [well if you’re one of the 2/3 who pass step]. I would avoid it unless it’s your only acceptance.

Know about the central wisconsin and how they did?

 

[Promethean]

LECOM's PCSP program has been a great boon to me. At age 40 now, every year I don't spend in training is one more year that I can practice. That is super valuable in a way it would not have been if I were 15 years younger. That the program has felt like being a wad of cotton being ramrodded down a tight musket barrel... yeah, there had to be a cost to be paid in order to get a full medical education in the limited time allotted. Not all costs are financial.

I definitely missed having the opportunity to do audition rotations (and that did probably play into why I failed to Match despite killer board scores.. the place I was lucky to scramble into was one of my few away rotations. Programs really do like a chance to really meet you before they make a 3 year commitment. Use your audition opportunities wisely. Yes, even in primary care specialties.) I missed out on opportunities during breaks and vacations that I didn't get. I missed out on having certain freedoms of choice that other students enjoyed.

And yet... the value of being able to get into practice a year sooner and for a year's less tuition expense... it cannot be underestimated. Every time I even daydream about complaining about something, I shut my mouth and soldier onward because holy mighty is it worth it! I'm going to graduate in 8 weeks. That is terrifying and humbling and most of the people I started with are looking ahead at starting a 4th year. I will be the intern teaching some of those folks. That's weird.

But like, also, super cool and humbling and I'm doing my best to be ready to step up into that role and be for some folks what my mentor has been to me.

(Re: not matching... I think I was the only one of the 8 three year program people that I will be graduating with (PCSP not the PA-to-DO folks, since I don't know their stats) who failed to match. And full disclosure, I only did AOA match, only ranked 3 popular sites near a popular city, etc. I was way too cocky and should have widened my net more than I did. I can't blame not matching on being in a 3 year program... but I am sure that if I'd rotated at those 3 sites on auditions, I would have had a very different outcome. I'm even more loveable in person. Humble, too. =)

 

[WIMNFamilyMed]

Know about the central wisconsin and how they did?

They are even newer and won’t match for a year. It’s the same curriculum (watch the Milwaukee campus and supplement with some on campus lecture, and anatomy lab). I expect it to go similarly.

 

[FlameGrilledChicken]

For what its worth Canadian schools like McMaster and Calgary have been doing a 3 year program for the entire class for a while now. Sine those programs are well established they tend to match at the same rate as the other 4 year schools in Canada and as I understand match a fair number to competetive specialties comparably. However, students at both schools have told me that the biggest downside is that you have to decide what specialty you want much faster than other schools in order to be competitive. Keep that in mind. I'm not sure about programs that are new to the 3 year scene though since they have added issues with being new and what not

 

[Piglet2020]

I would imagine it like this:
Advantages:
-save time
-save $

Disadvantages:
-overall quality of medical edu
-residency match?

 

[Spectar]

NYU and Stony Brook (started this year) have them as well.

-Need to be accepted to the normal program first
-Have opt-in periods aside from before matriculation (you can switch to the three year in your first or second year).
-Can select your residency beforehand--this is good and bad,

 

[pastrynerd]

LECOM's PCSP program has been a great boon to me. At age 40 now, every year I don't spend in training is one more year that I can practice. That is super valuable in a way it would not have been if I were 15 years younger. That the program has felt like being a wad of cotton being ramrodded down a tight musket barrel... yeah, there had to be a cost to be paid in order to get a full medical education in the limited time allotted. Not all costs are financial.

I definitely missed having the opportunity to do audition rotations (and that did probably play into why I failed to Match despite killer board scores.. the place I was lucky to scramble into was one of my few away rotations. Programs really do like a chance to really meet you before they make a 3 year commitment. Use your audition opportunities wisely. Yes, even in primary care specialties.) I missed out on opportunities during breaks and vacations that I didn't get. I missed out on having certain freedoms of choice that other students enjoyed.

And yet... the value of being able to get into practice a year sooner and for a year's less tuition expense... it cannot be underestimated. Every time I even daydream about complaining about something, I shut my mouth and soldier onward because holy mighty is it worth it! I'm going to graduate in 8 weeks. That is terrifying and humbling and most of the people I started with are looking ahead at starting a 4th year. I will be the intern teaching some of those folks. That's weird.

But like, also, super cool and humbling and I'm doing my best to be ready to step up into that role and be for some folks what my mentor has been to me.

(Re: not matching... I think I was the only one of the 8 three year program people that I will be graduating with (PCSP not the PA-to-DO folks, since I don't know their stats) who failed to match. And full disclosure, I only did AOA match, only ranked 3 popular sites near a popular city, etc. I was way too cocky and should have widened my net more than I did. I can't blame not matching on being in a 3 year program... but I am sure that if I'd rotated at those 3 sites on auditions, I would have had a very different outcome. I'm even more loveable in person. Humble, too. =)

Congrats on your match! I'm surprised you had to scramble. Do you think age might've had something to do with it? Did you apply for FM? I probably won't begin med school until I'm 37 and if I do a 3-year program, I'd also be 40 when applying for residency. How competitive is it to be admitted to the program at LECOM?

 

[DubbiDoctor]

NYU and Stony Brook (started this year) have them as well.

-Need to be accepted to the normal program first
-Have opt-in periods aside from before matriculation (you can switch to the three year in your first or second year).
-Can select your residency beforehand--this is good and bad,

Stony's three year MD is new, but for NYU do you know if you matriculation to residency is dependent on your step scores? What if you decide on derm, and then score a 220?

 

[Spectar]

Stony's three year MD is new, but for NYU do you know if you matriculation to residency is dependent on your step scores? What if you decide on derm, and then score a 220?

Well, if you decide on derm, you still have to be extremely competitive to get accepted into the 3 year (you would need intense derm research to back your interest). I believe they set minimum standards for step scores, but to be honest I'm not exactly sure what the minimum set point is and if it's different for each program or not.

 

[Promethean]

Congrats on your match! I'm surprised you had to scramble. Do you think age might've had something to do with it? Did you apply for FM? I probably won't begin med school until I'm 37 and if I do a 3-year program, I'd also be 40 when applying for residency. How competitive is it to be admitted to the program at LECOM?

My age hasn't at all been a factor. I'm not the oldest in my class.

Absolutely, I'm FM all the way. My application was like a love letter to FM.

I only applied through the AOA match, and all my programs were splitting their number of available seats between AOA and ACGME. So, instead of going for one of 18 possible seats, that effectively halved the number of seats available to me. There were other factors. I applied in too narrow a geographic area, seeking to be near a very popular city. I should have been willing to be further away than I was, as I ended up 5 hours from my home via the scramble. (I actually did also apply to the ACGME match, and so I could have done a round of trying to get a seat through them, but I figured those sites all had their shot at me once in the AOA match. If they didn't scoop me up, there was a reason they missed out, and I wasn't interested in going hat in hand and begging them for a seat. Not when there was such a perfect spot ready for me to land in it.)

This will all be easier in future years, with just one Match.

There are only 12 available seats in the PCSP program, but it doesn't always fill all of them. Like, the school will fill all of its available seats, but not all of them will choose PCSP as a pathway. It is an enormous commitment. I've written at length about that elsewhere in the forums, and if you want more info, I'd be happy to answer whatever questions you may have via PM.

 

[ndafife]

Stony's three year MD is new, but for NYU do you know if you matriculation to residency is dependent on your step scores? What if you decide on derm, and then score a 220?

3 year programs are heavily primary care dependent. I doubt if you were expressing an interest in derm, you would be accepted. They are set up to cut out electives to get people interested in PC done a year early.

And even then, derm is basically becoming a 5 year program (4 yrs med school, 1 year of research). Trying to do it in 3 wouldn't be advantageous

 

[Doctor Dream]

Mcw-green Bay had only 16/25 people match this year (their first matching year), as 7 failed step and others are taking a fourth year in Milwaukee which is an option but not guaranteed. I’d watch how residency match goes for those programs. I might consider it better than DO in the near future, but with current passing rates I would say it’s similar - not ideal but you’re still a doctor [well if you’re one of the 2/3 who pass step]. I would avoid it unless it’s your only acceptance.

Not sure where you read that 7 people failed STEP in Green Bay, but that's simply false. All of the MCW-Green Bay folks that took STEP passed, and those that chose to enter the match even got their first or second choice (FM, IM, Peds, Psych). You are right that some are choosing to take a 4th year, but that is to pursue more competitive specialties (like surgery or EM I'm assuming). MCW- Green Bay is doing very well so far, and I would expect MCW-Central to do just as well in the future. They are extremely solid schools that are beginning to produce the numbers to show it.

 

[DubbiDoctor]

3 year programs are heavily primary care dependent. I doubt if you were expressing an interest in derm, you would be accepted. They are set up to cut out electives to get people interested in PC done a year early.

And even then, derm is basically becoming a 5 year program (4 yrs med school, 1 year of research). Trying to do it in 3 wouldn't be advantageous

It is not the case that NYU's three year MD is limited to students pursuing primary care. For the class of 2021:
In addition, 14 students entered the MD/PhD dual degree program and 8 students entered the accelerated three-year MD pathway program—one of the first at an academic medical center—focusing their studies on emergency medicine, internal medicine, neurology, neurosurgery, OB/GYN, orthopedics, and otolaryngology.
I also happen to know an NYU MD student who knows another 3 year MD student who will be doing dermatology.

 

[Isoval]

Mcw-green Bay had only 16/25 people match this year (their first matching year), as 7 failed step and others are taking a fourth year in Milwaukee which is an option but not guaranteed. I’d watch how residency match goes for those programs. I might consider it better than DO in the near future, but with current passing rates I would say it’s similar - not ideal but you’re still a doctor [well if you’re one of the 2/3 who pass step]. I would avoid it unless it’s your only acceptance.

If only 2/3rds passed Step this year, I would give that program almost as wide of a berth as we give Caribbean programs.

Do not touch with ten foot pole.

 

[WIMNFamilyMed]

Not sure where you read that 7 people failed STEP in Green Bay, but that's simply false. All of the MCW-Green Bay folks that took STEP passed, and those that chose to enter the match even got their first or second choice (FM, IM, Peds, Psych). You are right that some are choosing to take a 4th year, but that is to pursue more competitive specialties (like surgery or EM I'm assuming). MCW- Green Bay is doing very well so far, and I would expect MCW-Central to do just as well in the future. They are extremely solid schools that are beginning to produce the numbers to show it.

@DrDazl ? Care to clarify what you told me about MCW GB that your friend was told at their interview Day right before Match day?

 

[WIMNFamilyMed]

In regards to a 4th year, changing from a primary care specialty is why, but my point was that the option of doing that is said to “not be guaranteed” by the school.

 

[Doctor Dream]

If only 2/3rds passed Step this year, I would give that program almost as wide of a berth as we give Caribbean programs.

Do not touch with ten foot pole.

It's simply not accurate info, see my post above.

 

[DoReMiMD]

Not sure where you read that 7 people failed STEP in Green Bay, but that's simply false. All of the MCW-Green Bay folks that took STEP passed, and those that chose to enter the match even got their first or second choice (FM, IM, Peds, Psych). You are right that some are choosing to take a 4th year, but that is to pursue more competitive specialties (like surgery or EM I'm assuming). MCW- Green Bay is doing very well so far, and I would expect MCW-Central to do just as well in the future. They are extremely solid schools that are beginning to produce the numbers to show it.

So if what that other person told WIMNfamilymed about 16/25 matching is wrong, how many matched and what’s going on with those who didn’t besides a couple doing a 4th year?

 

[Doctor Dream]

So if what that other person told WIMNfamilymed about 16/25 matching is wrong, how many matched and what’s going on with those who didn’t besides a couple doing a 4th year?

Everyone that applied to the match matched into their first or second choice, no one went unmatched. Those that didn't apply for the match (7 or 8 students I think) are doing a 4th year.

 

[WIMNFamilyMed]

Not sure where you read that 7 people failed STEP in Green Bay, but that's simply false. All of the MCW-Green Bay folks that took STEP passed, and those that chose to enter the match even got their first or second choice (FM, IM, Peds, Psych). You are right that some are choosing to take a 4th year, but that is to pursue more competitive specialties (like surgery or EM I'm assuming). MCW- Green Bay is doing very well so far, and I would expect MCW-Central to do just as well in the future. They are extremely solid schools that are beginning to produce the numbers to show it.

All people who took STEP passed -- so did some people not take it? Did they not feel prepared? Thanks for clarifying what I had been told before, just curious about this detail yet.. Having 1/3 of the class decide to add a 4th year is kind of a lot.

 

[Doctor Dream]

All people who took STEP passed -- so did some people not take it? Did they not feel prepared? Thanks for clarifying what I had been told before, just curious about this detail yet.. Having 1/3 of the class decide to add a 4th year is kind of a lot.

The whole class took STEP and passed. And yea it is a decent amount of the class, but that's what it takes to match into the more competitive specialties. I'm a student at one of those campuses and a handful of my class is already planning a 4th year because they want to do surgery or EM. And no worries, just wanted to make sure people get accurate info and don't think MCW regional campuses can't compete

 

[DrDazl]

@DrDazl ? Care to clarify what you told me about MCW GB that your friend was told at their interview Day right before Match day?

Yah my friend had interviewed and he was told several of the current M3 class did not take step with the rest of the class... so could not be included in the pass rate. This isn't firsthand info of course so could be wrong.

 

[12375711]

Saw this thread and know is slightly old but wanted to also testify as someone who truthfully knows, that it is #fakenews that 7 individuals failed step (holy rumor mill batman, how did we jump from hearing several not taking step from a buddy who interviewed to 7 people failing.) No one failed step in the graduating class. The graduating class enrolled 25. 21 progressed into the M2 year on pace. (there is no room for leave of absences or remediations over the summer in the 3 year curriculum, so any illness, or repeating a class or deceleration triggers a 4th year where on a typical 4 year campus you can just take it over the summer and stay on track and nobody's the wiser.) Of those that progressed into the M2 year "on time" (21) all passed Step I and Step II. 15 matched so you want to know the nitty gritty on the other 6. One is undecided, 4 more are pursuing a combinations of ortho(need aways, no time in 3yrs), gen surg(aways---->4yrs), and EM (need SLOE's and no time in 3yrs), the last has a truly non-academic related LOA. Also, it is not true that the CW and GB curriculums are the same, you can go to the websites for the details but there are significant differences in the clinical curriculum. It is true that both are on the same 2 year pre clinical track as MKE (same M1 and M2 tests at the same intervals as Milwaukee just clinicals in between and on top of M1 and M2 work). Sorry for the long post but for those are considering the 3yr deal, look at the match lists, understand to some people geography>prestige, but based on the competitive matches I think it's hard to argue that one can't be successful in 3 years, it just depends a little bit on what you can squeeze in specialty wize.