Advise on NP route

[deleted480308]

This is not similar because there is one study that offers conflicting data on the importance of RN experience in NP role transition. This one study is only a descriptive cross sectional survey and doesn't come close to arriving to any conclusions...On the other hand, I have provided you with plenty of data in the other thread and proved that there is a wealth of data (hundreds of studies) out there showing that experienced NPs practice equal to that of physicians in certain outcomes of measure and in certain settings. One of the studies that I gave you in fact was a randomized trial published by the American Medical Association..So no, this is not the same thing.

I watched your studies get torn up by madjack.....no, there aren't hundreds of actual studies that show independent NPs are just as good..

But we can do it again, link your best one...

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[FNP_Blix]

“The contention that (nurse practitioners) are less able than physicians to deliver care that is safe, effective and efficient is not supported by the decades of research that has examined this question,” said the Institute of Medicine in its 700-page The Future of Nursing: Leading Change, Advancing Health, published in 2011.

Chuck Moran, spokesman for the Pennsylvania Medical Society, could not point Watchdog.org to a single study that showed negative patient results under expanded nurse practitioner roles. He instead pointed to polling.
Nurses: Regulations hamper health-care efficiency in Pennsylvania

Here's the 700 page report in the IOM supporting my position:
https://www.nap.edu/read/12956/chapter/1#xv

I already showed him this and many more... Check out the thread titled "how do we stop nurse practitioners?"

 

[FNP_Blix]

I watched your studies get torn up by madjack.....no, there aren't hundreds of actual studies that show independent NPs are just as good..

But we can do it again, link your best one...

How bout you link a study, or just some or any data, that proves your point. In the whole month that we've been conversing, you have not been able to do that even once. And yes there is decades of data and hundreds of published studies that show the efficacy of NP practice. Also, MadJack didn't tear up anything. He always derails the conversations actually...

 

[762513]

I watched your studies get torn up by madjack.....no, there aren't hundreds of actual studies that show independent NPs are just as good..

But we can do it again, link your best one...

If we ever met your magical standard of evidence, the next day the bar would be raised. There's no point.

 

[deleted480308]

How bout you link a study, or just some or any data, that proves your point. In the whole month that we've been conversing, you have not been able to do that even once. And yes there is decades of data and hundreds of published studies that show the efficacy of NP practice. Also, MadJack didn't tear up anything. He always derails the conversations actually...

The data is the vast difference in our actual training between doctors and NPs. It would be unethical for the doctors to design a randomized control trial to put patients unsupervised under NPs with the premise that they aren't qualified.

The burden is on you to prove your point and "we tricked legislature" doesn't count

 

[FNP_Blix]

If we ever met your magical standard of evidence, the next day the bar would be raised. There's no point.

He doesn't even recognize that even physicians have humbled themselves and accepted our point of view. He just wan't to argue for the sake of arguing.

 

[762513]

The data is the vast difference in our actual training between doctors and NPs. It would be unethical for the doctors to design a randomized control trial to put patients unsupervised under NPs with the premise that they aren't qualified.

The burden is on you to prove your point and "we tricked legislature" doesn't count

It is not unethical to compare current practice such as NP run clinics of which there are thousands with physician only practices.

 

[deleted480308]

He doesn't even recognize that even physicians have humbled themselves and accepted our point of view. He just wan't to argue for the sake of arguing.

They are far more honest when it's just the doctors and med students around.....no, no they don't tend to support independent midlevels

 

[FNP_Blix]

The data is the vast difference in our actual training between doctors and NPs. It would be unethical for the doctors to design a randomized control trial to put patients unsupervised under NPs with the premise that they aren't qualified.

The burden is on you to prove your point and "we tricked legislature" doesn't count

The burden would be on us if we weren't practicing independently or if we were trying to make independent practice a reality. But the fact is that we are already our own providers. If you want to say how unsafe we are and that we need supervision, or prove legislatures to change policy, then no, the burden of proof is on you.

 

[deleted480308]

The burden would be on us if we weren't practicing independently or if we were trying to make independent practice a reality. But the fact is that we are already our own providers. If you want to say how unsafe we are and that we need supervision, or prove legislatures to change policy, then no, the burden of proof is on you.

if you ever want physicians to actually consider it a good idea (and not just stay quiet publicly out of fear of reprisal) then you will need more proof than "but we won the legislative game". I've openly admitted you are winning that game, I just think you haven't shown it's won at the expense of quality

 

[762513]

if you ever want physicians to actually consider it a good idea (and not just stay quiet publicly out of fear of reprisal) then you will need more proof than "but we won the legislative game". I've openly admitted you are winning that game, I just think you haven't shown it's won at the expense of quality

Im sure physicians can put together a study to save the world from NP's. Comparing two types of current practice is ethical. They won't do that study because they are worried what the results would be, and an argument from ignorance is better than nothing at all. Nurses won because they are right, not because they cheated.

 

[FNP_Blix]

Im sure physicians can put together a study to save the world from NP's. Comparing two types of current practice is ethical. They won't do that study because they are worried what the results would be, and an argument from ignorance is better than nothing at all. Nurses won because they are right, not because they cheated.

Exactly. I never thought to put it that way lol...I've been arguing this point (among many other points around this topic) since the beginning of August on multiple threads on SDN, & with no backup! Thanks for the support and finally another colleague who understand's my point of view...I felt like a soldier in battle with barely any support until you came along haha

 

[Makati2008]

Hey everyone let's stay on topic.

 

[857770]

They are far more honest when it's just the doctors and med students around.....no, no they don't tend to support independent midlevels

This!

 

[675151]

They are far more honest when it's just the doctors and med students around.....no, no they don't tend to support independent midlevels

Fortunately, mature men aren't alienated by the opinions of others despite their best efforts to disparage. You're a cynical man and probably have reason to be miserable. Most of us do, but the majority make the trudge without perpetual harassment of others. It's all reminiscent of the fat kid that bullies skinny kids. Find a valid hobby or method of coping beyond projecting your grand inferiority. Give it some pause, form your words, reply in feigned calm, and give it your best dose of malevolence. When you're ready to admit you need help, I might point you to some midlevel or master's trained clinicians.

Feel free to repost, share in the physicians' lounge, Tweet from the med students' locker room, or seek punitive measures on my part.

Sincerely yours,
Psych NP Guy

 

[deleted480308]

Fortunately, mature men aren't alienated by the opinions of others despite their best efforts to disparage. You're a cynical man and probably have reason to be miserable. Most of us do, but the majority make the trudge without perpetual harassment of others. It's all reminiscent of the fat kid that bullies skinny kids. Find a valid hobby or method of coping beyond projecting your grand inferiority. Give it some pause, form your words, reply in feigned calm, and give it your best dose of malevolence. When you're ready to admit you need help, I might point you to some midlevel or master's trained clinicians.

Feel free to repost, share in the physicians' lounge, Tweet from the med students' locker room, or seek punitive measures on my part.

Sincerely yours,
Psych NP Guy

Anytime you want to discuss proper clinical roles as opposed to getting personal, I’m here

 

[FNP_Blix]

Anytime you want to discuss proper clinical roles as opposed to getting personal, I’m here

You see the problem is, you don't have any substance for your arguments other than basically stating, "this is how's it's been, so this is how it should be". You've had no real rebuttal since the first time we debated this topic a little over a month ago. On the other hand, I have shown you that there is tons of evidence and plenty of studies that prove the efficacy of NPs as independent providers. I even showed you one randomized control trial published by your beloved American Medical Association that clearly could not prove that NPs are unsafe or unable to practice independently in primary care type settings, and even supports the NP role. Another article I gave you was by the New England Journal of Medicine that also strongly supported experienced NPs as independent providers. With that said, the references I provided you in the other threads just scratched the surface. There is much more data out there that supports the evolving role of NPs...Yet despite all this, you're still unable to accept the current evidence that exists and continue to chase me down on other threads in an attempt to argue with me on this same topic and appeal to different audiences on SDN (probably because you're insecure about the arguments you've made)...Again, if you want your argument to hold water, the burden of proof will have to be on you and the medical community that agrees with your point of view. Advanced practice nurses (CRNAs, CNMs, ARNPs) have already established themselves as safe independent providers and so if you want to say how unsafe we are, then provide even one decent study to back up your claims (Note: sb247 has not once been able to do this)...Otherwise, quit rambling your empty points and admit you've lost this debate.

 

[675151]

Anytime you want to discuss proper clinical roles as opposed to getting personal, I’m here

Yet you don't. You're very much personal in a passive aggressive fashion, or at least you try to be. If you don't see that, work on the bedside manner, old boy.

 

[Makati2008]

Closing thread due to it derailing.