Affirmative Action in medical schools?

[PreMD86]

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On a different note; I would really like people's opinion on the sentiment below. I am not a close minded individual, yet I feel I have made a good point here, and want to know what others think.

Many people who check of the little "Caucasian" box never owned a slave in their entire family history. Millions of immigrants from Russia, Poland , heck, all of Europe have come to this country (esp. oh I dunno, around Hitler's time) and have been economically disadvantaged for generations, and have no "debt to society"; kind of thing that could justify URM admission over any of them. It is a reverse discrimination system - being white*, regardless of origin, disqualifies you from certain aid available strictly to non-whites. If i put any URM in place of white* [above], it would NOT be okay. I don't agree with this.

If you do disagree, I want to hear why (really; I never claimed to be right all the time), but don't turn this personal.

It is very easy to wash your hands clean of the racial mess in today's America by distancing your ethnic group from slavery. The country where I was born and raised is infact the only nation in history to import Africans for non-slavery purposes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah_from_Ethiopia). In addition, Jews have been disadvantaged and descriminated against historically much, MUCH more than any other group.

Despite how distant you believe certain ethnic groups to be from slave ownership, realize this: The definition of "whiteness" is far from biologically immutable, and is instead socially constructed, fluid, and historically relative. Ethnic groups that arrived at this country economically or socially disadvantaged (Italians, Irish, Jews) rised to their current ethnic status, to some extent, by distancing and distinguishing themselves from other ethnic groups still considered "non-white" (mainly, African-Americans). While a hundred years ago, the definition of "white" encompassed little more than WASP, it has since expanded to include eastern Europeans, middle easterners, and south Asians.

Despite our present color blindness, and blind belief in the success of the racial movement of the 1960's, blacks on average (when adjusted for inflation) earn less today than in the 1970's. There are neighborhoods in NYC today where the only factor distinguishing the population from a de-facto apartheid is 0.2 measly percent. African-Americans continue to be discrimated against in mortgages, health-care, education, and the job market.Racial inequality, whether we like to admit is or not, is still very much a systemic problem in the states, and the extent to which a "caucasian" will subtly benefit from it is enormous.

The way I think of AA is not as a "the least we could do to make up for slavery" policy. When it comes to medicine, it's a policy that's in the best interest of our patients. You can speak to patients for hours about the science behind, and benefits of a colonoscopy or a mammogram, but if You can't appeal to their fears and needs, you can forget it.

I hoped that answered your question. There is endless research on this and I'm sure others could manipulate the data to reach vastly different conclusion. Which ever conclusion you choose to reach, please at least try to educate yourself on these issues before saying "I never owned a slave and thus have nothing to do with it." Your patients will be better off for it.

 

[drizzt3117]

If you have not thoroughly read an applicant's PS, secondary essays, LORs, seen them interview etc. then you have absolutely no idea why a school would be interested in them.

I'd agree with this to a certain degree.

To undermine someone's accomplishments based on the conjecture of affirmative action is foolish and disrespectful. Sure AA may be used in some cases, but not all. Schools want to enroll the best students possible and we should trust their decisions in who they pick, after all, they have years of experience doing this and understand what makes one student more qualified than the other.

You're operating under the assumption that a medical school has final say in what their class composition is. This might be true in the cases of individual students, but I guarantee if UCI or UCLA decided that the best 150 students to fill their class were only whites, the UC system would have something to say to them.

Unfortunately, many of you fail to realize that a high GPA and high MCAT do not equal higher qualifications. With that said, focus on your application and do what you can to make yourself the most well-rounded and compelling applicant possible.

Absolutely true, qualitative factors are often as important or more important than quantitative measurements. That said, it isn't only URM students who have these qualitative factors, and you can't assume that just because a candidate is URM that they have experiences that will make them stand out. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but at the same time, there are plenty of non-URM students who have unique experiences.

Flaahless,

I like reading your posts. I think you're a very smart guy who will be a great doctor, and you should be very proud of your accomplishments. On an intellectual level, do you really believe that your ethnicity has had no effect whatsoever on your applications this cycle?

 

[flaahless]

On an intellectual level, do you really believe that your ethnicity has had no effect whatsoever on your applications this cycle?

Nope. Read my personal statement. I've had a very unique upbringing and most adcoms are fascinated by this.

When Dean Zic called me and offered me the Dean's Scholarship he said:

"The purpose of the Dean's Scholarship is to award students for their accomplishments and to entice students who we believe will add a valuable dimension of diversity to our class. And by diversity we do not solely mean ethnic diversity, but also sexuality, purpose and goals in the medical profession, and personal experiences. Your secondary essay is a compelling story. You are one of the most unique applicants we've ever scene. Your personal experiences and triumphs bring a level of diversity that will enrich any med school class. Congratulations."

 

[drizzt3117]

Nope. Read my personal statement. I've had a very unique upbringing and most adcoms are fascinated by this.

When Dean Zic called me and offered me the Dean's Scholarship he said:

"The purpose of the Dean's Scholarship is to award students for their accomplishments and to entice students who we believe will add a valuable dimension of diversity to our class. And by diversity we do not solely mean ethnic diversity, but also sexuality, purpose and goals in the medical profession, and personal experiences. Your secondary essay is a compelling story. You are one of the most unique applicants we've ever scene. Your personal experiences and triumphs bring a level of diversity that will enrich any med school class. Congratulations."

Well, add my congratulations to his. I completely agree with the concept that building a class with diverse people and experiences will ultimately make all of the members of a given entering class better doctors. Education doesn't only happen in a classroom and having differing points of view and opinions helps to build understanding.

 

[PreMD86]

Nope. Read my personal statement. I've had a very unique upbringing and most adcoms are fascinated by this.

When Dean Zic called me and offered me the Dean's Scholarship he said:

"The purpose of the Dean's Scholarship is to award students for their accomplishments and to entice students who we believe will add a valuable dimension of diversity to our class. And by diversity we do not solely mean ethnic diversity, but also sexuality, purpose and goals in the medical profession, and personal experiences. Your secondary essay is a compelling story. You are one of the most unique applicants we've ever scene. Your personal experiences and triumphs bring a level of diversity that will enrich any med school class. Congratulations."

Out of curiousity, what is so unique about you? I guess I don't expect you to share your PS, but maybe a peek into your background.
On another note, while I'm sure your experience and eloquence struck a note with adcoms, you are naive to believe your file would have made it into the hands of so many adcoms (and in such wonderful places) had you checked the 'caucasian' box. If you read my previous post you will see I have no personal objection to this, but dismissing it all together is absurd.

 

[flaahless]

Absolutely true, qualitative factors are often as important or more important than quantitative measurements. That said, it isn't only URM students who have these qualitative factors, and you can't assume that just because a candidate is URM that they have experiences that will make them stand out. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but at the same time, there are plenty of non-URM students who have unique experiences.

Absolutely. My ex girlfriend has identical stats as me, and she's white. However, she has a compelling story an strong upward trend and has had much success. She has 2 acceptances so far, and 8 interviews including UCSD and USC.

 

[flaahless]

Out of curiousity, what is so unique about you? I guess I don't expect you to share your PS, but maybe a peek into your background.
On another note, while I'm sure your experience and eloquence struck a note with adcoms, you are naive to believe your file would have made it into the hands of so many adcoms (and in such wonderful places) had you checked the 'caucasian' box. If you read my previous post you will see I have no personal objection to this, but dismissing it all together is absurd.

Haha to take it further... I guess I wouldn't have had the life experiences that I've had if I was caucasian.

 

[drizzt3117]

Out of curiousity, what is so unique about you? I guess I don't expect you to share your PS, but maybe a peek into your background.
On another note, while I'm sure your experience and eloquence struck a note with adcoms, you are naive to believe your file would have made it into the hands of so many adcoms (and in such wonderful places) had you checked the 'caucasian' box. If you read my previous post you will see I have no personal objection to this, but dismissing it all together is absurd.

On a demographic level, I think an interesting analysis would be to take a look at entering classes at top 25 schools and look at the percentage of URM students and those receiving full scholarships. My guess is that these numbers are going to remain pretty constant from year to year. While I believe that most of these applicants also have extremely compelling stories and interesting backgrounds and will certainly add to the diversity and education of the classes they are in, and I certainly don't want to belittle their obvious accomplishments, my contention is that certainly their is some sort of master plan for an entering class that incorporates a given number of URM students.

I read an interesting article by Howard Bryant yesterday, about the Barry Bonds saga. In it, he contended that Bonds received unfair scrutiny relative to his colleague, Mark McGwire, which is a contention I certainly agree with. I quote:

None of these issues lacks merit. In fact, it is impossible to conduct a full, rounded discussion without their mention. Race plays a factor in every discussion between blacks and whites, whether it's about Friday night poker, Bonds, O.J., Michael Vick, Don Imus or McGwire. Accept this for no other reason than the country was built on a foundation of the races being split, a foundation that never has been -- and likely never will be -- properly retrofitted.

I personally doubt that medical school admissions are excluded from this group of issues.

Haha to take it further... I guess I wouldn't have had the life experiences that I've had if I was caucasian.

This is something I was going to mention, but it's sort of difficult to exclude people's ethnicity from their overall story because it's part of them! Ultimately this is a good thing, because it's really impossible to evaluate someone qualitatively without considering their background. This is one reason "color-blind" admissions will never happen no matter how much pre-meds and rightists want it to, and IMO this is a good thing.

 

[Mister Pie]

I agree. While I don't necessarily like AA, I do think that many more URMs in general have to go through more difficulties in life and so in some ways, their life stories can be more "compelling". In such cases, a lot of credit really is deserved.

 

[PreMD86]

Umm, I think that's rather the point. I'm Irish, and Irish changed from 'minority that even the other Catholics discriminated against' to 'white' pretty much the day that they passed the affermative action laws. .

That quickly, eh? That's astounding! Actually, the Irish were demonized and dehuminized when they got off the boat, and were slapped with the similar stereotypes as African Americans. The Irish racial transformation was a substancial process, that included, but was not limited to, distinguishing themselves from their black counterparts.

Also white only encompases middle easterners and south Asians on AMCAS forms, no one else considers them part of the majority.

You mean, no one, aside from the U.S government? Check out the U.S census definition of caucasian: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(U.S._census)#Definitions. You're correct that those in the Indian subcontinent are considered asian (my apologies), but compare it to previous censuses (censi, perhaps?), and you might be rather surprised at what you find.

After all the descrimination and oppression these people have faced, which at least Middle Easteners are still facing, why have they suddenly become 'white' now that being a minority might be some advantage to them?

Have you gone mad? I hope you're not considering slight benefits in medical school admissions as an advantage to being a minority! Becoming 'white' is far from sudden. It's a long and arduous hazing process where everyone who steps off the boat a few years before you do considers themselves an authentic American and yourself an immigrant who's only here to steal his job, rape your wife, and lower America's moral standards. Being a minority is disadvantageous is ways we can barely begin to comprehend.

I know you said it's 'socially constructed and fluid', but that's really just a Grad Studenty way of saying 'it changed 'cause it changed, and isn't really an answer

It's a way of saying the definition of race has changed not because some genetic testing has all the sudden proven that Afghans are more closely related to WASPs than Africans are, but because race is more of a popularity contest than science. There answer is not simple, and dozens if not hundreds of books have been written about it- I'll send you some important ones if you still insist.

 

[UFMed]

Ehh.. The REAL take home message:

To SDNers:

If you have not thoroughly read an applicant's PS, secondary essays, LORs, seen them interview etc. then you have absolutely no idea why a school would be interested in them. To undermine someone's accomplishments based on the conjecture of affirmative action is foolish and disrespectful. Sure AA may be used in some cases, but not all. Schools want to enroll the best students possible and we should trust their decisions in who they pick, after all, they have years of experience doing this and understand what makes one student more qualified than the other. Unfortunately, many of you fail to realize that a high GPA and high MCAT do not equal higher qualifications. With that said, focus on your application and do what you can to make yourself the most well-rounded and compelling applicant possible.

Quote from UC Irvine adcom: "A student who can name all of the enzymes in the kreb cycle is smart, but a student who understands the social effects of the crack epidemic is useful."

 

[keepmeasecret]

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[NoUse4aName1286]

Nope. Read my personal statement. I've had a very unique upbringing and most adcoms are fascinated by this.

When Dean Zic called me and offered me the Dean's Scholarship he said:

"The purpose of the Dean's Scholarship is to award students for their accomplishments and to entice students who we believe will add a valuable dimension of diversity to our class. And by diversity we do not solely mean ethnic diversity, but also sexuality, purpose and goals in the medical profession, and personal experiences. Your secondary essay is a compelling story. You are one of the most unique applicants we've ever scene. Your personal experiences and triumphs bring a level of diversity that will enrich any med school class. Congratulations."

Which also means it was not ignored, and it would be an insult if they came out and said that was the only reason why.

Look, I have to agree with the previous poster, it is severe naivety to deny that race played a role.

I also had a very interesting background, b/c of my religious beliefs, yet i doubt it will benefit me any in the admissions cycle.

 

[keepmeasecret]

Apology Pseudo-accepted!

 

[Mace1370]

Have you gone mad? I hope you're not considering slight benefits in medical school admissions as an advantage to being a minority! Becoming 'white' is far from sudden. It's a long and arduous hazing process where everyone who steps off the boat a few years before you do considers themselves an authentic American and yourself an immigrant who's only here to steal his job, rape your wife, and lower America's moral standards. Being a minority is disadvantageous is ways we can barely begin to comprehend.

So you think that we should try to fix a problem we can "barely begin to comprehend"? Do you have any proof that being a minority has so many negative effects, or is this just your opinion?

This is a current trend amoung ADCOMs, and I've never liked or agreed with it. The idea that a doctor of medicine isn't so much a doctor of a biological sciences as a doctor of social sciences can only turn out a crappier quality of physician. Doctors work in hospitals and treat diseases. It's what they're trained to do, it's what they're paid to do. If they're compassionate they do it for free after they're done doing it for money, and that's something ADCOMs should try and screen for, but that's not the same as understand the social effects crack epidemic.

They do have degrees for people who want to treat the crack epidemic as well: economics and the other social sciences, criminal justice and forensics, even theology. They also have jobs treating the crack epidemic: social worker, economist, counsiler, policer officer. However the Doctor's job is the treat each individual crackhead, for the effects of his crack related diseases, and for that you need Biology and Chemistry, not sociology. I'm not even sure what this ADCOM member is proposing his students to to fix the problem once they understand. Should they, after 4 years undergrad, 4 years medical school, and 3-7 years residency eschew the hospital and spend their time on the streets 'fixing' crack addition? Is that even ethical, considering how medically underserved our nation already is? This is a meaningless, self rightous soundbite, full of sound a fury, signifying nothing.

👍

 

[PreMD86]

I also would like to comment on your full ride Flaahless. When I clicked on your MDapp I seriously felt sick to my stomach. I thought about all the people who worked really hard in undergrad and on their mcat and were unfortunate enough not to have the "experience" /luck you have had.

Racism in an ugly thing, ese. Your friends might have had all the time and money in the world to spend on their academics. Others may have had to work two jobs to afford their education. Your friends might have come from supportive families. Others may have troubled and distracting backgrounds. I'd like to think you are not ignorant enough to form judgement on this man based on a MDapp profile. Trust adcoms that have all the information in the world and diverse members and mindsets to make a more intelligent decision.

 

[keepmeasecret]

Blank

 

[badasshairday]

whatever. just deal with it and don't cry.

NEWSFLASH!

LIFE ISN'T ALWAYS FAIR

 

[BlackDr2b]

That is a really ugly comment to make about someone, especially when you don't know anything about them or what they have come from. Who are you to judge that man and say that he didn't work really hard? I'm sure he worked just as hard as anybody else and obviously Vandy saw that and rewarded him for it. You should check that attitude because it is not cool. Congrats Flaahless on your accomplishments! Represent for the LA folks!

I also would like to comment on your full ride Flaahless. When I clicked on your MDapp I seriously felt sick to my stomach. I thought about all the people who worked really hard in undergrad and on their mcat and were unfortunate enough not to have the "experience" /luck you have had.

 

[AlexMorph]

I want to talk about something that Flaahless brought up. He said he wouldn't have had his unique experiences if he wasn't black. Obviously, your race in America governs the type of experiences you have had/will have. It's not an ideal situation, but let's face it, it's reality. Does this necessarily mean that the "token white guy", deprived of the experiences a black person or a Hispanic immigrant might have, must work harder and do better in college/MCAT/quality and quantity of ECs to make up for the fact that he didn't have whatever experiences blacks and Hispanics have had?

If we are going to talk about diversity here, why not talk about how not every white/Asian/Indian person is the same and have unique experiences of their own to offer...

I'm not putting down any URMs here. I don't know their qualifications and will not pass judgment on anyone. But as someone mentioned earlier, I forget who, the white/Asian person shouldn't be held accountable for the fact that they simply didn't have to deal with things that blacks/Hispanics might have to deal with because of something they can't change, their race. Unless you are Michael Jackson, of course.

 

[Turtle01]

AA is a band-aid in the wrong place, it needs to be fixed at the K-12 level

 

[flaahless]

I also would like to comment on your full ride Flaahless. When I clicked on your MDapp I seriously felt sick to my stomach. I thought about all the people who worked really hard in undergrad and on their mcat and were unfortunate enough not to have the "experience" /luck you have had.

Dude, you don't f****** know me. You have no idea how long I spent studying for the MCAT, excelling in my upper div microbio courses, researching, serving the community. Scratch that, you don't know how many hours I spent in high school busting my a** to get a fullride to go to undergrad. You don't know where I grew up, if I am economically disadvantaged, socially disadvantaged. You don't know what personal hardships I've had to endure, what my goals are in the medical profession. You don't know a damn thing about me. All you know is that I'm a black male with a mediocre VR score. So for you to pass judgment on me based on the facade that you see on MDapps is a testament to how ignorant you are.

Fact of the matter is, Dean Zic felt I deserved the scholarship. I proved myself to him and the admissions committee at Vanderbilt. I don't have to prove myself to a bunch of jealous, spiteful, bitter and borderline racist SDNers.

 

[PreMD86]

So you think that we should try to fix a problem we can "barely begin to comprehend"? Do you have any proof that being a minority has so many negative effects, or is this just your opinion?

Do I have any proof that being a minority has negative effects?Hmm, lets see...

Wage Disparity- http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/rb/RB_503DRRB.pdf
"For African American

men, the median was $15.41, leading to a relative wage of 74
cents on the dollar compared to the wage of white men."

Life Expectancy: http://seniorhealth.about.com/library/news/blafa.htm
"African American life expectancy is 70.2 years, compared to an average of 76.5 years for all population groups. The difference in life expectancy is even more striking among African American men, who have a life expectancy of only 66.1 years, compared to the national average of 73.6 years for all men."

Mortgages: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/16/AR2006061600745.html
"To the contrary, the study, which used "paired" mystery shoppers, documented what its sponsors call "pervasive discriminatory and predatory practices by mortgage brokers" in all six markets"

Poverty- http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/soc/355lect11.htm
"About 10 million (or 33% of) African Americans fit the Census Dept. definition of "poor." These poverty rates are extremely stable, and are the same as they were thirty years ago, same as they were fifty years ago, etc. They show no signs of budging, although there are slight yearly fluctuations"

Criminal Activity: http://www.sentencingproject.org/Admin/Documents/publications/rd_crisisoftheyoung.pdf
"49% of prison inmates nationally are African American, compared to their 13% share of the overall population."​

What I meant by "barely begin to comprehend" is the subtle factors that simply cannot be accounted for in conventional studies yet still act to keep minorities down. Check out environmental racism as a crude example (there are many more): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_racism
As Americans, we often like to view our success in light of our merit and subscribe to the "pull yourself by the bootstap" mentality. In actuality, one's success in life (statistically) is determined to a large extent by factors that are completely outside of our control.​

 

[flaahless]

I want to talk about something that Flaahless brought up. He said he wouldn't have had his unique experiences if he wasn't black. Obviously, your race in America governs the type of experiences you have had/will have. It's not an ideal situation, but let's face it, it's reality. Does this necessarily mean that the "token white guy", deprived of the experiences a black person or a Hispanic immigrant might have, must work harder and do better in college/MCAT/quality and quantity of ECs to make up for the fact that he didn't have whatever experiences blacks and Hispanics have had?

If we are going to talk about diversity here, why not talk about how not every white/Asian/Indian person is the same and have unique experiences of their own to offer...

I'm not putting down any URMs here. I don't know their qualifications and will not pass judgment on anyone. But as someone mentioned earlier, I forget who, the white/Asian person shouldn't be held accountable for the fact that they simply didn't have to deal with things that blacks/Hispanics might have to deal with because of something they can't change, their race. Unless you are Michael Jackson, of course.

I don't believe white/asians students should be held accountable for anything. What I do believe is that adcoms should and do accept the most qualified applicants to satisfy the goals of the university. Just because some naiive and prejudiced SDNers don't understand what those goals are, doesn't mean that whites and asians are being slighted.

 

[BlackDr2b]

Flaahless, don't even bother waisting your breath on someone like that because it is pointless. You and the Lord know that you deserve that scholarship and that is why you got it. Some people on SDN are just bitter and ignorant. Some people need to stop waisting time talking down to people or belittling them and work on themselves! Maybe if some people would get themselves and their attitudes right, they might be the ones to receive scholarships like that one. It gets old when people are constantly blamming URM's for things. Worry about yourself and your application and if you do all that you need to to get in, then you will.

 

[gotmeds?]

The problem for minorities being mis-represented lies at our public school system in grades K-12, and this is what we need to fix, not use AA to degrade the value of someones college/professional education.

I think the word is underrepresented. Anyway, I think you're right. We do need to fix K-12. Now if you know a way to get that to happen anytime soon, then great. In the meantime, AA is kind of a band-aid, not a solution. Or to take the analogy a little further: you might need surgery to repair an artery, but in the meantime, you apply direct pressure to the wound rather than just standing around and yelling, "someone should really get this guy to surgery!"

Another point is this: you guys all seem to be looking at this from the point of view of taking the "most qualified" candidate. What does that even mean? Med schools aren't looking for the "most qualified" candidate. Read the mission statements. Have you ever seen a school say something like, "we strive to take the students with the highest grades and MCAT scores and most impressive extracurricular activities?" I didn't think so. They look for people who will help them fulfill their mission (I refer you back to the mission statement here). Sure, this usually correlates with what you would consider "qualified" from a pre-med point of view, but it's not exactly the same thing. They're not there to judge how "good" you are or how much you "deserve" to be in med school. They're there to figure out how having you in their class will benefit their school.

 

[flaahless]

I think the word is underrepresented. Anyway, I think you're right. We do need to fix K-12. Now if you know a way to get that to happen anytime soon, then great. In the meantime, AA is kind of a band-aid, not a solution. Or to take the analogy a little further: you might need surgery to repair an artery, but in the meantime, you apply direct pressure to the wound rather than just standing around and yelling, "someone should really get this guy to surgery!"

Another point is this: you guys all seem to be looking at this from the point of view of taking the "most qualified" candidate. What does that even mean? Med schools aren't looking for the "most qualified" candidate. Read the mission statements. Have you ever seen a school say something like, "we strive to take the students with the highest grades and MCAT scores and most impressive extracurricular activities?" I didn't think so. They look for people who will help them fulfill their mission (I refer you back to the mission statement here). Sure, this usually correlates with what you would consider "qualified" from a pre-med point of view, but it's not exactly the same thing. They're not there to judge how "good" you are or how much you "deserve" to be in med school. They're there to figure out how having you in their class will benefit their school.

Thank you.

 

[BlackDr2b]

I think the word is underrepresented. Anyway, I think you're right. We do need to fix K-12. Now if you know a way to get that to happen anytime soon, then great. In the meantime, AA is kind of a band-aid, not a solution. Or to take the analogy a little further: you might need surgery to repair an artery, but in the meantime, you apply direct pressure to the wound rather than just standing around and yelling, "someone should really get this guy to surgery!"

Another point is this: you guys all seem to be looking at this from the point of view of taking the "most qualified" candidate. What does that even mean? Med schools aren't looking for the "most qualified" candidate. Read the mission statements. Have you ever seen a school say something like, "we strive to take the students with the highest grades and MCAT scores and most impressive extracurricular activities?" I didn't think so. They look for people who will help them fulfill their mission (I refer you back to the mission statement here). Sure, this usually correlates with what you would consider "qualified" from a pre-med point of view, but it's not exactly the same thing. They're not there to judge how "good" you are or how much you "deserve" to be in med school. They're there to figure out how having you in their class will benefit their school.

Word!!! 👍. Well said my friend.

 

[keepmeasecret]

Hello all again. I wanted to say gotmeds? I did really like your statement. Its true more than grades and mcat scores should be taken into account. However I do feel they are there for a reason. Perhaps to show how hard some one worked in undergrad. Flaahless, I would also like to say I am sorry about what I said about your scholarship from the dean. Perhaps you are very qualified and deserving of that( I think I just got all riled up). It is also true i dont know what you have gone through and perhaps you have had a very hard life. On another note I think perhaps what is said on this forum is taking too seriously and that everyone is more than deserving to post their own opinions. Furthermore, I would like to say although I am sure racism is out there that the word racist is definately uglier than saying an opinion that some one may not be deserving of a scholarship. Infact perhaps the word should not be thrown around so lightly.

 

[AlexMorph]

I think the word is underrepresented. Anyway, I think you're right. We do need to fix K-12. Now if you know a way to get that to happen anytime soon, then great. In the meantime, AA is kind of a band-aid, not a solution. Or to take the analogy a little further: you might need surgery to repair an artery, but in the meantime, you apply direct pressure to the wound rather than just standing around and yelling, "someone should really get this guy to surgery!"

Another point is this: you guys all seem to be looking at this from the point of view of taking the "most qualified" candidate. What does that even mean? Med schools aren't looking for the "most qualified" candidate. Read the mission statements. Have you ever seen a school say something like, "we strive to take the students with the highest grades and MCAT scores and most impressive extracurricular activities?" I didn't think so. They look for people who will help them fulfill their mission (I refer you back to the mission statement here). Sure, this usually correlates with what you would consider "qualified" from a pre-med point of view, but it's not exactly the same thing. They're not there to judge how "good" you are or how much you "deserve" to be in med school. They're there to figure out how having you in their class will benefit their school.

As others have already said, you make a great point.

So, can we all agree that AA is there because it's the best system we have to deal with other societal inequalities?

 

[flaahless]

Hello all again. I wanted to say gotmeds? I did really like your statement. Its true more than grades and mcat scores should be taken into account. However I do feel they are there for a reason. Perhaps to show how hard some one worked in undergrad. Flaahless, I would also like to say I am sorry about what I said about your scholarship from the dean. Perhaps you are very qualified and deserving of that( I think I just got all riled up). It is also true i dont know what you have gone through and perhaps you have had a very hard life. On another note I think perhaps what is said on this forum is taking to seriously and that everyone is more than deserving to post their own opinions. Furthermore, I would like to say although I am sure racism is out there that the word racist is definately uglier than saying an opinion that some one may not be deserving of a scholarship. Infact perhaps the word should not be thrown around so lightly.

I am not calling you racist, but the ignorant and pejudiced thinking that you displayed is at the root of racism. How about keeping an open mind and not judging other people, especially if you have no clue who they are or what they've gone through? How about being happy for those who are successful in this process rather than having that disgusting pre-med bitterness?

Apology pseudo-accepted.

 

[wutwinb]

I also would like to comment on your full ride Flaahless. When I clicked on your MDapp I seriously felt sick to my stomach. I thought about all the people who worked really hard in undergrad and on their mcat and were unfortunate enough not to have the "experience" /luck you have had.

I really hope I don't end up at the same medical school as you (or anybody like you). But, from the amount of cruel mdapps posts that we minorities receive, it seems inevitable that a few will end up in our classes. I've been trying not to let comments from strangers on the internet affect any part of my happiness, but some of you are trying my patience.


Does anyone have data on how many med students actually drop out of medical school for educational reasons? It seems to me that ADCOMs who accept applicants with lower numbers (minorities and non-minorities) ultimately made the right decision because an overwhelming majority of these applicants graduate from med school, get into residencies, and become doctors. Where is your data that accepted applicants who had lower numbers can't make it in med school or become bad doctors?

 

[45408]

Who are you to judge that man and say that he didn't work really hard? I'm sure he worked just as hard as anybody else and obviously Vandy saw that and rewarded him for it.

Just an aside - full rides are NOT common, and everyone in med school has worked very hard, but most of them do not get a full ride. If any of you are fortunate enough to get one, it would be nice of you to keep quiet about it, and very modest about it if it comes up. A private school has the right to do whatever it wants with its money, so I don't hold it against anyone if some donor decided they want to give money to certain students.

 

[drizzt3117]

Does anyone have data on how many med students actually drop out of medical school for educational reasons? It seems to me that ADCOMs who accept applicants with lower numbers (minorities and non-minorities) ultimately made the right decision because an overwhelming majority of these applicants graduate from med school, get into residencies, and become doctors. Where is your data that accepted applicants who had lower numbers can't make it in med school or become bad doctors?

Actually BigMedPremed posted a link from AAMC a few months ago that pointed out that URM candidates had 4x higher attrition rate than non-URM candidates, and the most common reason was academic reasons.

 

[flaahless]

Actually BigMedPremed posted a link from AAMC a few months ago that pointed out that URM candidates had 4x higher attrition rate than non-URM candidates, and the most common reason was academic reasons.

He posted a link from Linda Chavez who clearly has a vendetta against minorities. Her studies have been proven to be extremely biased and flawed.

 

[drizzt3117]

He posted a link from Linda Chavez who clearly has a vendetta against minorities. Her studies have been proven to be extremely biased and flawed.

Here's the study he posted. It's not by Linda Chavez, but by some people from AAMC.

http://www.aamc.org/data/aib/aibissues/aibvol7_no2.pdf

 

[AlexMorph]

He posted a link from Linda Chavez who clearly has a vendetta against minorities. Her studies have been proven to be extremely biased and flawed.

So, whose studies do you trust then? I was wondering if we could get input from other sources instead of an apparently biased Chavez.

 

[keepmeasecret]

Thanks for the Pseudo-acceptance of my apology Flaahless.

wutwinb
I really hope I don't end up at the same medical school as you (or anybody like you). But, from the amount of cruel mdapps posts that we minorities receive, it seems inevitable that a few will end up in our classes. I've been trying not to let comments from strangers on the internet affect any part of my happiness, but some of you are trying my patience.


Wutwinb I am sorry you feel like you wouldnt want to end up in the same medical school as me. On that same note i thought it was interesting that you refer to "we minorities" dispite the fact I am a minority as well.

 

[flaahless]

Here's the study he posted. It's not by Linda Chavez, but by some people from AAMC.

http://www.aamc.org/data/aib/aibissues/aibvol7_no2.pdf

Interesting...

 

[drizzt3117]

Interesting...

Also, here's the references from that study.

http://www.aamc.org/data/aib/aibissues/supplement_vol7_no2.pdf

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

Just an aside - full rides are NOT common, and everyone in med school has worked very hard, but most of them do not get a full ride. If any of you are fortunate enough to get one, it would be nice of you to keep quiet about it, and very modest about it if it comes up. A private school has the right to do whatever it wants with its money, so I don't hold it against anyone if some donor decided they want to give money to certain students.

Exactly.

 

[flaahless]

Just an aside - full rides are NOT common, and everyone in med school has worked very hard, but most of them do not get a full ride. If any of you are fortunate enough to get one, it would be nice of you to keep quiet about it, and very modest about it if it comes up. A private school has the right to do whatever it wants with its money, so I don't hold it against anyone if some donor decided they want to give money to certain students.

Just an aside - don't judge other applicants and make snide remarks that insult and undermine their hard work and accomplishments.

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

Your comment is doing the same thing; implies that you worked harder and had more unique circumstances than anyone else. But I'm sure you don't see it that way.

 

[PreMD86]

Just an aside - don't judge other applicants and make snide remarks that insult and undermine their hard work and accomplishments.

I actually think you should really take his advice to heart. Even if your scholarship was based on hard work and accomplishment, you'll be living the high life while your classmates will be struggling with a 6-figure debt. Last thing you want to do is put yourself in the spotlight as someone who is better or more worthy than them. Modesty and humility go a long way in life, and medicine especially.

 

[wutwinb]

I think I'm done posting on this thread. It's getting nowhere. Thank you for the discussion and comments. Good luck to everyone for the rest of the application season. I'm sure we'll all be happy where we end up.

 

[BlackDr2b]

Your comment is doing the same thing; implies that you worked harder and had more unique circumstances than anyone else. But I'm sure you don't see it that way.

His comment that he made earlier was in response to someone who went on his mdapps and brought up his scholarship. He never said that he worked any harder than anybody else. He said he worked hard. The prowler was responding to my comment and I said that someone shouldn't judge Flaahless becasue he has worked just as hard as anybody else.

 

[RandomBlackManX]

I really want to join this discussion, but my AT&T 8525 won't be able to handle all the key strokes lol. Oh well.

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

His comment that he made earlier was in response to someone who went on his mdapps and brought up his scholarship. He never said that he worked any harder than anybody else. He said he worked hard. The prowler was responding to my comment and I said that someone shouldn't judge Flaahless becasue he has worked just as hard as anybody else.

His comment just previously was to the prowler, regardless of who the prowler originally replied to.

Yeah, I realize life's not fair, but if flaahless really thinks a full ride with stipend occurred just b/c of his unique experiences and hard work, I think he's kidding himself. I'm not saying he does or doesn't deserve it, but I AM saying that the reasons did not leave race unconsidered.

Tell me how resentment does not built up when you see on an undergrad level, minority students with 2.0, or 2.5 gpa's getting full "academic merit' rides, while they drive around in new beemers? You can't expect people to beleive that the same logic doesn't permeate into the graduate level - and since it does, you can expect ppl to beleive that the scholarship in this case is not racially biased. If you're so damn sure its not/doesn't matter, then check other, or prefer not to say; see what happens.

 

[flaahless]

Your comment is doing the same thing; implies that you worked harder and had more unique circumstances than anyone else. But I'm sure you don't see it that way.

I never said that. I merely defended an attack against me and provided a quote to substantiate my position.

You know what man. I have never personally attacked, insulted or challenged the qualifications and/or successes of any member on this site. I've treated everyone with the kindness and respect that I would like to receive. I am happy for the successes of everyone and quick to congratulate the good news, and support them when the news isn't as positive. They are not the reason I will or will not get into medschool. My admission rests solely on my shoulders.

With that said, if someone disagrees with the system or the process, fine. But for someone to attack me and assume, based on their own prejudices, that I do not deserve what I've gotten is flat out disrespectful.

This is a pre-med forum that operates under the assumption that we are all mature and respectful adults. There is an acceptance forum, should we censor that to accomodate the jelaous and envious feelings of bitter SDNers? No.

 

[flaahless]

I actually think you should really take his advice to heart. Even if your scholarship was based on hard work and accomplishment, you'll be living the high life while your classmates will be struggling with a 6-figure debt. Last thing you want to do is put yourself in the spotlight as someone who is better or more worthy than them. Modesty and humility go a long way in life, and medicine especially.

Living the high life? Dawg I've been dead broke since birth. I am sleeping in my best friends living room right now. Living the high life? You have no idea what kind of life I have lived or will live. I'm done.