Affirmative Action in medical schools?

[NoUse4aName1286]

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I have not launched a personal attack, or if its come off that way, i apologies. So far, it seems that most of the commenting has been fairly civil.

AA upsets me b/c its abused. A LOT. Both URM's and not can/do/ and have agreed on this.

That said, I will not offer a pseudo apology.
I do really apologize if I have been malicious or obnoxious, I don't know you from Jack, and so have no right to be presumptuous.
However, as someone who has had a very rough go of it (as many have), and has seen the abuse of the system very directly, a rather bitter taste has been left in my mouth about AA and its merits.

At this point, I think I will stop posting on this thread.

 

[BlackDr2b]

His comment just previously was to the prowler, regardless of who the prowler originally replied to.

Yeah, I realize life's not fair, but if flaahless really thinks a full ride with stipend occurred just b/c of his unique experiences and hard work, I think he's kidding himself. I'm not saying he does or doesn't deserve it, but I AM saying that the reasons did not leave race unconsidered.

Tell me how resentment does not built up when you see on an undergrad level, minority students with 2.0, or 2.5 gpa's getting full "academic merit' rides, while they drive around in new beemers? You can't expect people to beleive that the same logic doesn't permeate into the graduate level - and since it does, you can expect ppl to beleive that the scholarship in this case is not racially biased. If you're so damn sure its not/doesn't matter, then check other, or prefer not to say; see what happens.

First off, when you are talking to me, if you are talking to me, be cool on the language you use. I am not talking to crazy so be cool. Second, athletes in college and the money they get is a whole different conversation. And even the non minority athletes get those same scholarships and trust me I know because I played college football. Third, why should I have to deny who I am because you have a problem with it. I'm not going to deny who I am to prove a point to you or anybody else. When we minorities get into med school it is becasue we deserve it. There are many minorities who don't get in because they don't deserve to. When I get in, it will be becasue of who I am and I am qualified to have that seat, regardless of my skin color.

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

First off, when you are talking to me, if you are talking to me, be cool on the language you use. I am not talking to crazy so be cool. Second, athletes in college and the money they get is a whole different conversation. And even the non minority athletes get those same scholarships and trust me I know because I played college football. Third, why should I have to deny who I am because you have a problem with it. I'm not going to deny who I am to prove a point to you or anybody else. When we minorities get into med school it is becasue we deserve it. There are many minorities who don't get in because they don't deserve to. When I get in, it will be becasue of who I am and I am qualified to have that seat, regardless of my skin color.

What language?

 

[BlackDr2b]

His comment just previously was to the prowler, regardless of who the prowler originally replied to.

Yeah, I realize life's not fair, but if flaahless really thinks a full ride with stipend occurred just b/c of his unique experiences and hard work, I think he's kidding himself. I'm not saying he does or doesn't deserve it, but I AM saying that the reasons did not leave race unconsidered.

Tell me how resentment does not built up when you see on an undergrad level, minority students with 2.0, or 2.5 gpa's getting full "academic merit' rides, while they drive around in new beemers? You can't expect people to beleive that the same logic doesn't permeate into the graduate level - and since it does, you can expect ppl to beleive that the scholarship in this case is not racially biased.If you're so damn sure its not/doesn't matter, then check other, or prefer not to say; see what happens.

That language.

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

That language.

Sorry it that offended you [no mockery/sarcasm intended]

 

[keepmeasecret]

Nouse4aname I want to congratulate you on definately keeping your cool. I think every post you have had was well versed and definately says something about your education level. To those who have have something to say about his/her posts I just want to clarify that he/she was not saying anything to be mean. The point of his/her posts was to always try and tell every one to maintain humility because every one on this forum has clearly worked really hard to get to this point. Anyways congrats to everyone on ALL of their accomplishments and goodluck in the rest of this interviewing season.

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

keepmeasecret; Agreed; Best of luck to all in this process. i think maybe this thread should be de-facto closed at this point. It seems little is left to be said w/out it degrading into nasty, bitter

 

[keepmeasecret]

agreed this is my last post! Once again good luck to all!!!😀

 

[BlackDr2b]

Sorry it that offended you [no mockery/sarcasm intended]

Its cool, I am not trippin. I just wanted to have a discussion without cussin at one another. I hear every point you have made and I understand how it is to struggle(trust me). Sometimes it just gets old, like I said before, to constantly be told that minorities don't deserve to get into med school. I have no hard feelings toward anybody and I pray that everybody gets in. You know how it is to struggle so I really pray you get in because I know you will help the people that are struggling. God bless.

 

[Textuality]

Hmm..from what I understand AA is supposed to help even out the playing field, under the assumptions that (statistically speaking) many minorities tend to not have access to as many opportunities due to restrictive economic situations?

If that's the case, then why not just base "Affirmative action" directly on socio-economic status rather than race? Sorry if that's a question already addressed earlier in the thread (I skimmed).

Yay for civil discussions 🙂

(for the record, I have nothing against AA, just wondering if it can be fine tuned?)

 

[45408]

Just an aside - don't judge other applicants and make snide remarks that insult and undermine their hard work and accomplishments.

Your comment was not at all necessary. I neither insulted nor undermined anything you did. Try re-reading my post for its actual content. I have made no assumptions about your scholarships.


EDIT - If your application had circumstances/accomplishments that convinced the school that you deserved a merit scholarship, congratulations on your achievements. Like I said before though, there are MANY hard-working students in medical school, and whatever scholarships you received most likely had a runner-up, and they would probably not like to be reminded of what they missed out on.

 

[Techmed07]

Hmm..from what I understand AA is supposed to help even out the playing field, under the assumptions that (statistically speaking) many minorities tend to not have access to as many opportunities due to restrictive economic situations?

If that's the case, then why not just base "Affirmative action" directly on socio-economic status rather than race? Sorry if that's a question already addressed earlier in the thread (I skimmed).

Yay for civil discussions 🙂

(for the record, I have nothing against AA, just wondering if it can be fine tuned?)

Medicine offers one of the most professionally, and personally satisfying careers in our society. Yet, today, Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans, among others, are underrepresented in the medical and dental professions. While these groups make up nearly 25 percent of the U.S. population, these three groups together comprise only 9 percent of the nation's doctors. At the same time, the nation's population is becoming increasingly diverse, and America's need for physicians and dentist who reflect that diversity is now greater than ever.

 

[flaahless]

Your comment was not at all necessary. I neither insulted nor undermined anything you did. Try re-reading my post for its actual content. I have made no assumptions about your scholarships.

My bad. It wasn't directed to you, only inspired by your quote.

 

[da me ka don]

I really want to join this discussion, but my AT&T 8525 won't be able to handle all the key strokes lol. Oh well.

Show off!!!! haaa

 

[gotmeds?]

If that's the case, then why not just base "Affirmative action" directly on socio-economic status rather than race?

Excellent question. The answer is that socioeconomic status alone doesn't account for disparities in many areas where minorities are at a disadvantage. In other words, if you take a Caucasian and an African American with identical SES (which is based on education, occupation, and income, by the way), the black guy is likely to receive worse healthcare, less likely to get approved for a loan, and more likely to be exposed to violence and discrimination. If that weren't the case then, sure, SES would be a better consideration for affirmative action. However, it's important to keep in mind that SES is one of the factors taken into consideration for everyone in applying to med school, regardless of race.

 

[coldweatherblue]

I actually think you should really take his advice to heart. Even if your scholarship was based on hard work and accomplishment, you'll be living the high life while your classmates will be struggling with a 6-figure debt. Last thing you want to do is put yourself in the spotlight as someone who is better or more worthy than them. Modesty and humility go a long way in life, and medicine especially.

X2

 

[drizzt3117]

gotmeds,

While your contention may be true on a percentile basis, I am not sure it is true on an absolute income basis b/c a white person w/ a given income will be at a lower percentile than a black person w/ the same income. I did clinical research on outcomes, and SES was overwhelming the biggest factor affecting HCQOL. There was still a gap after adjustment for SES but it wasnt significant.

 

[Textuality]

Excellent question. The answer is that socioeconomic status alone doesn't account for disparities in many areas where minorities are at a disadvantage. In other words, if you take a Caucasian and an African American with identical SES (which is based on education, occupation, and income, by the way), the black guy is likely to receive worse healthcare, less likely to get approved for a loan, and more likely to be exposed to violence and discrimination. If that weren't the case then, sure, SES would be a better consideration for affirmative action. However, it's important to keep in mind that SES is one of the factors taken into consideration for everyone in applying to med school, regardless of race.

Really? I don't remember putting anything about my SES in my application...but no, I get the point. Although, maybe it might lead to less "abuse" of AA? I'm not really sure, it was just an idea. There was a bit of bitterness that I remember when I was in highschool, where a URM got into almost all the ivy leagues she applied to, but kids with better grades/EC's etc didn't get in. And of course both she and the other kids were all pretty well off upper middle class kids, so there was a little bitterness and bad moods, it was kind of uncomfortable unfortunately...

 

[drizzt3117]

There is a question on AMCAS about disadvantaged status.

 

[Mace1370]

Do I have any proof that being a minority has negative effects?Hmm, lets see...

Wage Disparity- http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/rb/RB_503DRRB.pdf
"For African American

men, the median was $15.41, leading to a relative wage of 74
cents on the dollar compared to the wage of white men."

Life Expectancy: http://seniorhealth.about.com/library/news/blafa.htm
"African American life expectancy is 70.2 years, compared to an average of 76.5 years for all population groups. The difference in life expectancy is even more striking among African American men, who have a life expectancy of only 66.1 years, compared to the national average of 73.6 years for all men."

Mortgages: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/16/AR2006061600745.html
"To the contrary, the study, which used "paired" mystery shoppers, documented what its sponsors call "pervasive discriminatory and predatory practices by mortgage brokers" in all six markets"

Poverty- http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/soc/355lect11.htm
"About 10 million (or 33% of) African Americans fit the Census Dept. definition of "poor." These poverty rates are extremely stable, and are the same as they were thirty years ago, same as they were fifty years ago, etc. They show no signs of budging, although there are slight yearly fluctuations"

Criminal Activity: http://www.sentencingproject.org/Admin/Documents/publications/rd_crisisoftheyoung.pdf
"49% of prison inmates nationally are African American, compared to their 13% share of the overall population."​

What I meant by "barely begin to comprehend" is the subtle factors that simply cannot be accounted for in conventional studies yet still act to keep minorities down. Check out environmental racism as a crude example (there are many more): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_racism
As Americans, we often like to view our success in light of our merit and subscribe to the "pull yourself by the bootstap" mentality. In actuality, one's success in life (statistically) is determined to a large extent by factors that are completely outside of our control.​

Correlation != causation. Proof that blacks may be poorer on average, or contribute a higher % to prison populations, does not prove that racism/discrimination is the reason for this disparity.

 

[njbmd]

Is there an affirmative action policy in selecting candidates for medical school? In other words, do ADCOMS give preference based on race or ethnicity?
I've been trying to reach a consensus on this, but I haven't been able to find a solid answer. I figured that they would give preference to those who mark (and explain) themselves as under represented in medicine (which I would attribute to socioeconomic status, not just simply race). I am not even 100% sure if all (or some) schools even give preference for UR in medicine.

So, if this is the case, if you happen to be a minority, are you automatically given preference, or is it dependent on whether you feel you are under represented? 😕

Just a reminder to stay on topic in this thread. These AA threads have generally been closed or derailed because many people can't discuss Affirmative Action without getting derogatory or personal. If you have a comment on the original question that I have quoted above, then feel free to post your comment. Everyone has a right to post an opinion freely and participate in the discussion but personal attacks are not permitted.

If you have a reply that is aimed at a specific poster, then use the Private Message (PM) function by clicking on the users name and sending your post. In any event, respond to the post and not to individual posters unless you are using the PM function.

Student Doctor Network encourages lively discussion and debate but personal attacks and unprofessionalism are not permitted. Also, if you want to move the discussion to another topic then feel free to start a new thread.

Thanks!

 

[batman1983]

On a different note; I would really like people's opinion on the sentiment below. I am not a close minded individual, yet I feel I have made a good point here, and want to know what others think.

Totally agree. Im actually Middle Eastern and am considered Caucasian under any kind of racial/ethnic categorization. Yet, when ppl look at me, they dont see a white person, they see a Middle Eastern or a possible terrorist. Personally, I feel that I have had it worst than most groups(esp since 9/11). I dont get any of the benefits of minority status, yet, get all the discrimination that occurs with being a minority(if not more, since its okay to discriminate against Middle Easterns (just go to Fox News)).

In the end, I believe AA, especially in regards to medical school, is BS. The main arguments for AA in regards to medical school is to add to diversity of the student body, which will somehow stimulate the medical education process, and to have more URM doctors that would be better suited to treat URM patients or practice in URM areas. While I firmly believe in the second point, I would think that most patients (even URMs), would prefer to have a doctor that got into and succeed in medical school based on their intelligence(MCATs, GPA, etc) than one that got in based on race.

Yet, like a previous poster mention, medical education is not the same as some undergrad majors, where debate in necessary to facilitate the educational process. In medical school, you are learning hard science taught in books, lectures, and etc. Having a URM student, who has had a different background/views, sit next to me isn’t going to help me or the class for that matter, learn the material better. In addition, if you look at schools with AA policies, you will notice that for the majority, all it does is help the advancement of well-off/wealthy minorities over poor minorities (I am a firm believer in having an AA based on economic status rather than race). Thus, as a student, I would not necessary be exposed to different views. I believe I would learn more from a person that grew up in a poor neighborhood (white, black, Mexican, etc) than some minority that grew up wealthy.

To the ppl that say AA does not have an affect on medical school admissions (even for schools that say they dont consider AA like Tufts or state schools), I just recommend going to mdapplicants.com and compare the profiles of URMs and Caucasians with similar stats. Trust me, I have. URMs with similar stats to mine got into top tier schools(Harvard, John Hopkins, etc), whereas I will be lucky to get into a medical school.

In addition, AA creates a false image for many qualified URM applicants and doctors. There are many URMs that have great stats and are more than qualified to be doctors, yet, because of the image created by AA, many ppl(patients, fellow colleagues, etc) will feel that they probably got into medical school because of their race. That was one of the main arguments made by Ward Connerly. He felt that because of AA, most ppl would also devalue his as well as the achievements of other URMs.

 

[BlackDr2b]

Totally agree. Im actually Middle Eastern and am considered Caucasian under any kind of racial/ethnic categorization. Yet, when ppl look at me, they dont see a white person, they see a Middle Eastern or a possible terrorist. Personally, I feel that I have had it worst than most groups(esp since 9/11). I dont get any of the benefits of minority status, yet, get all the discrimination that occurs with being a minority(if not more, since its okay to discriminate against Middle Easterns (just go to Fox News)).

In the end, I believe AA, especially in regards to medical school, is BS. The main arguments for AA in regards to medical school is to add to diversity of the student body, which will somehow stimulate the medical education process, and to have more URM doctors that would be better suited to treat URM patients or practice in URM areas. While I firmly believe in the second point, I would think that most patients (even URMs), would prefer to have a doctor that got into and succeed in medical school based on their intelligence(MCATs, GPA, etc) than one that got in based on race.

Yet, like a previous poster mention, medical education is not the same as some undergrad majors, where debate in necessary to facilitate the educational process. In medical school, you are learning hard science taught in books, lectures, and etc. Having a URM student, who has had a different background/views, sit next to me isn’t going to help me or the class for that matter, learn the material better. In addition, if you look at schools with AA policies, you will notice that for the majority, all it does is help the advancement of well-off/wealthy minorities over poor minorities (I am a firm believer in having an AA based on economic status rather than race). Thus, as a student, I would not necessary be exposed to different views. I believe I would learn more from a person that grew up in a poor neighborhood (white, black, Mexican, etc) than some minority that grew up wealthy.

To the ppl that say AA does not have an affect on medical school admissions (even for schools that say they dont consider AA like Tufts or state schools), I just recommend going to mdapplicants.com and compare the profiles of URMs and Caucasians with similar stats. Trust me, I have. URMs with similar stats to mine got into top tier schools(Harvard, John Hopkins, etc), whereas I will be lucky to get into a medical school.

In addition, AA creates a false image for many qualified URM applicants and doctors. There are many URMs that have great stats and are more than qualified to be doctors, yet, because of the image created by AA, many ppl(patients, fellow colleagues, etc) will feel that they probably got into medical school because of their race. That was one of the main arguments made by Ward Connerly. He felt that because of AA, most ppl would also devalue his as well as the achievements of other URMs.

My first question is why do feel as though that the URM's who are getting accepted into medical school aren't intelligent? If they weren't intelligent enough to get the job done, they wouldn't have gotten in. Just because a person has a lower MCAT score or a 3.0 gpa does not mean that they aren't intelligent or capable of succeeding in medical school. I don't have a great MCAT score but I am very intelligent. And when I get into medical school it will be because of my intelligence and my ability to get it done.

Second, who cares what people think. They shouldn't judge somebody and say that they got in because of their race. For all they know, they could have been top of their class. Plus race doesn't make you succeed in medical school, the person makes themselves succeed in medical school. I don't know, maybe it's just me but I could care less if anybody thinks I got into medical school based on my race. All that matters is that the Lord and myself and the adcom know that I got in based on my intelligence and my ability.

 

[drizzt3117]

My first question is why do feel as though that the URM's who are getting accepted into medical school aren't intelligent? If they weren't intelligent enough to get the job done, they wouldn't have gotten in.

Well, the attrition stats that were posted a few days ago don't bear that out. URMs with lower stats don't do as well. However, IMO, regardless, the societal effects of AA outweigh the higher attrition.

Second, who cares what people think. They shouldn't judge somebody and say that they got in because of their race. For all they know, they could have been top of their class. Plus race doesn't make you succeed in medical school, the person makes themselves succeed in medical school. I don't know, maybe it's just me but I could care less if anybody thinks I got into medical school based on my race. All that matters is that the Lord and myself and the adcom know that I got in based on my intelligence and my ability.

That's a good attitude which will serve you well in the future.

 

[BlackDr2b]

How do you break up the quotes like that when responding to somebody

 

[drizzt3117]

How do you break up the quotes like that when responding to somebody

put (quote) with the [] around it before what you want to quote and /quote with brackets after it.

 

[BlackDr2b]

Do people really feel that minorities steal their spot? Just asking, not mad or anything.

 

[flaahless]

In addition, AA creates a false image for many qualified URM applicants and doctors. There are many URMs that have great stats and are more than qualified to be doctors, yet, because of the image created by AA, many ppl(patients, fellow colleagues, etc) will feel that they probably got into medical school because of their race. That was one of the main arguments made by Ward Connerly. He felt that because of AA, most ppl would also devalue his as well as the achievements of other URMs.

So you're saying that AA is bad because people are stupid and prejudiced? Riiggghhhtt. Also, Ward Connerly was getting monetary support from right wing lobbyists, he was willing to say whatever to keep his assets in check.

 

[BlackDr2b]

Wassup flaahless

 

[flaahless]

Wassup flaahless

What it do?

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

So you're saying that AA is bad because people are stupid and prejudiced? Riiggghhhtt. Also, Ward Connerly was getting monetary support from right wing lobbyists, he was willing to say whatever to keep his assets in check.

I think what he is saying by this is that it generates that kind of image, not b/c ppl are genetically stupid or prejudiced, but b/c it is commonly accepted that AA sometimes serves to benefit ppl w/lower abilities and/or drives, and feeds that public image.

IF AA was done away with, then how many ppl would be able to say "Well, DR. URM X probably didn't really get in on merit." ? But this has been rehashed a million and a half times.

 

[BlackDr2b]

Just studying for finals. I really shouldn't be on here but I was nosey and wanted to see what was going on. Wassup with you bruh?

 

[flaahless]

I think what he is saying by this is that it generates that kind of image, not b/c ppl are genetically stupid or prejudiced, but b/c it is commonly accepted that AA sometimes serves to benefit ppl w/lower abilities and/or drives, and feeds that public image.

IF AA was done away with, then how many ppl would be able to say "Well, DR. URM X probably didn't really get in on merit." ? But this has been rehashed a million and a half times.

Who's to say that DR. URM X didn't get in on merit with AA? Does Merit=MCAT+GPA, because if not, everything is just prejudiced conjecture. (that's a lot of Js)

 

[flaahless]

Just studying for finals. I really shouldn't be on here but I was nosey and wanted to see what was going on. Wassup with you bruh?

I feel you, I'm trying to stay out of this forum but I keep getting sucked in. It's unfortunate, but a lot of people already have their minds made up. Hopefully, some of these individuals will be in my class and I can show them how we get down.

Other than that, I've just been watching football. Go Chargers!

 

[badasshairday]

To tell you the truth, if diversity wasn't part of the goal for medical schools, we would have med schools filled with white males, south asian males, and east asian males. Think about how many super qualified applicants are part of that pool. That would be based on stats alone. Not much diversity in terms of experiences.

Flaahless, don't even trip about this thread anymore. To tell you the truth if I was you, i'd just delete my MDapps because it must be annoying as hell getting comments from jealous ass motherf***ers. Your application cycle is successful as hell. Congrats and good luck in the future.

 

[flaahless]

To tell you the truth, if diversity wasn't part of the goal for medical schools, we would have med schools filled with white males, south asian males, and east asian males. Think about how many super qualified applicants are part of that pool. That would be based on stats alone. Not much diversity in terms of experiences.

Flaahless, don't even trip about this thread anymore. To tell you the truth if I was you, i'd just delete my MDapps because it must be annoying as hell getting comments from jealous ass motherf***ers. Your application cycle is successful as hell. Congrats and good luck in the future.

Thanks a lot man. That really means a lot to me. Congrats on MCW and goodluck with AECOM!

But I'm going to leave my MDapps up to expose the racist mentalities of some SDNers and pre-meds in general. It also serves as motivation for me to light it up in med school. Stay up.

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

Who's to say that DR. URM X didn't get in on merit with AA? Does Merit=MCAT+GPA, because if not, everything is just prejudiced conjecture. (that's a lot of Js)

Look I have never said that URM's cant get in on merit [I mean, give me a break]. The point I was making, however, is that it fosters prejudice and racism. Is that already present in the people that take that stance? Maybe. Then again, pretty sure Germans weren't so anti-Semitic until given a reason to be (provided by Hitler). So to, AA, I feel, breeds racism, to greater or lesser degrees, even in ppl whom otherwise weren't/wouldn't be.

 

[batman1983]

My first question is why do feel as though that the URM's who are getting accepted into medical school aren't intelligent? If they weren't intelligent enough to get the job done, they wouldn't have gotten in. Just because a person has a lower MCAT score or a 3.0 gpa does not mean that they aren't intelligent or capable of succeeding in medical school. I don't have a great MCAT score but I am very intelligent. And when I get into medical school it will be because of my intelligence and my ability to get it done.

Where did I say that URMs are not intelligent? By the statement highlighted in bold, I meant that I believe most patients would probably prefer to have a doctor that entered medical school based upon their merits(GPA, MCAT, etc) rather than based on the color of their skin. As for lower MCAT/GPA, while it does not mean that the person is not capable of succeeding, it does imply that he/she will probably have a harder time dealing with the medical material (comprehension, workload, etc). That is why the GPA and MCAT are such important metrics used in the medical admissions process. There are obviously exceptions, but on avg, ppl with higher GPA/MCATs do better in medical school than those with lower stats.

To elaborate upon your first point more, would you say a nonURM person with similar MCAT/GPA scores(lets assume low GPA and MCAT&#232; <3.5 and 30) as a URM is just as intelligent or capable than the URM to enter medical school and succeed as a doctor? Yet, a nonURM with those stats would not be given as much consideration (and probably even have a hard time even entering medical school) as a URM with the same stats. So, why, if only based on intelligence and hardwork as you said, should a URM be given more consideration than a nonURM (which you can not deny is true, just look at the profiles/stats of URMs and non URMs accepted into medical school).

Second, who cares what people think. They shouldn't judge somebody and say that they got in because of their race. For all they know, they could have been top of their class. Plus race doesn't make you succeed in medical school, the person makes themselves succeed in medical school. I don't know, maybe it's just me but I could care less if anybody thinks I got into medical school based on my race. All that matters is that the Lord and myself and the adcom know that I got in based on my intelligence and my ability.

So you're saying that AA is bad because people are stupid and prejudiced? Riiggghhhtt. Also, Ward Connerly was getting monetary support from right wing lobbyists, he was willing to say whatever to keep his assets in check.

As for BlackDr2b, I absolutely agree with you. It doesn't matter what others think. There are smart URMs that are at the top of their class. Yet, because of the policies of AA, many ppl will look down or devalue their achievements, believing that it is attributed to AA. This kind of think will permeate through society, and is to some extent, is already prevalent in society. I have many nonURM friends entering or already in medical school that look down upon the academic capabilities of URMs(even before knowing them) based on their belief that AA helped them enter medical school. Even at my job, there are ppl that that comment on the URM employees, attributing their presence to the fact of AA quotas at work. That was one of the main arguments made by Ward Connelly.

Do people really feel that minorities steal their spot? Just asking, not mad or anything.

As for me, I don't think so since I would like to believe that my stats, based on my hardwork and intelligence, are enough for me to get into medical school(or at least I hope so this year). Yet, there are many nonURMs with borderline stats(<3.5GPA and <30MCAT) that are very hardworking and intelligence, yet are unable to enter medical school. Then they see a URM with similar stats get into UCLA, UCSF, Harvard, etc, and feel like they got cheated.

 

[flaahless]

Look I have never said that URM's cant get in on merit [I mean, give me a break]. The point I was making, however, is that it fosters prejudice and racism. Is that already present in the people that take that stance? Maybe. Then again, pretty sure Germans weren't so anti-Semitic until given a reason to be (provided by Hitler). So to, AA, I feel, breeds racism, to greater or lesser degrees, even in ppl whom otherwise weren't/wouldn't be.

AA breeds racism? Naah I don't see it. AA will never breed racism that's foolish. Racism is caused by ignorance, prejudice and one group being in a position of power over another.

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

AA breeds racism? Naah I don't see it. AA will never breed racism that's foolish. Racism is caused by ignorance, prejudice and one group being in a position of power over another.

I hope thats meant to be facetious, but i doubt it is. As i said, economic depression bread prejudice too, just takes the right catalyst. AA is that catalyst; but continue to believe what you want - you not being very objective.

I think the ignorance here is your own, I'm sorry. I put forward evidence to support my view, you're just lamenting personal feelings.

 

[BlackDr2b]

[/QUOTE]As for me, I don't think so since I would like to believe that my stats, based on my hardwork and intelligence, are enough for me to get into medical school(or at least I hope so this year). Yet, there are many nonURMs with borderline stats(<3.5GPA and <30MCAT) that are very hardworking and intelligence, yet are unable to enter medical school. Then they see a URM with similar stats get into UCLA, UCSF, Harvard, etc, and feel like they got cheated.[/QUOTE]

Maybe they aren't entering into medical school for other reasons that have nothing to do with stats. We don't know what happens when committee's look at applications or when they interview people. I have had many physicians who sit on committee's tell me that they get vibes from people's application and their interview. And this is the reason they turn them down. I have also had doc's tell me that they like to take people who have been through things and know how to over come struggle, and maybe some nonURM's don't have that quality.

 

[flaahless]

As for BlackDr2b, I absolutely agree with you. It doesn’t matter what others think. There are smart URMs that are at the top of their class. Yet, because of the policies of AA, many ppl will look down or devalue their achievements, believing that it is attributed to AA. This kind of think will permeate through society, and is to some extent, is already prevalent in society. I have many nonURM friends entering or already in medical school that look down upon the academic capabilities of URMs(even before knowing them) based on their belief that AA helped them enter medical school. Even at my job, there are ppl that that comment on the URM employees, attributing their presence to the fact of AA quotas at work. That was one of the main arguments made by Ward Connelly.

Is that because of AA or because your friends already harbor prejudiced thoughts? You're saying the thoughts were caused by AA. I disagree, the thoughts were caused by society. Nonetheless, AA or not, much of America will look down on minorities, it's unfortunate but true.

As for me, I don’t think so since I would like to believe that my stats, based on my hardwork and intelligence, are enough for me to get into medical school(or at least I hope so this year). Yet, there are many nonURMs with borderline stats(<3.5GPA and <30MCAT) that are very hardworking and intelligence, yet are unable to enter medical school. Then they see a URM with similar stats get into UCLA, UCSF, Harvard, etc, and feel like they got cheated.

I truly hope that you do get into medical school as well. However, despite popular belief, adcoms are not lying when they say that stats do not guarantee an acceptance. Sure they signify a level of knowledge and hardwork, but there is more to gaining admission to medical school than knowledge and hardwork. Commitment to service, strong sociable qualities, strong moral fiber etc. And despite popular SDN belief, schools still do place a heavy emphasis on stats. So the reason that many "seemingly" qualified applicants are denied admission, is because there just aren't enough spots. Not because of AA and URM populations.

Lastly, there are very few URMS at the UCs, see prop 209 to understand why.

 

[flaahless]

I hope thats meant to be facetious, but i doubt it is. As i said, economic depression bread prejudice too, just takes the right catalyst. AA is that catalyst; but continue to believe what you want - you not being very objective.

I think the ignorance here is your own, I'm sorry. I put forward evidence to support my view, you're just lamenting personal feelings.

Hahaha wtf? What are you talking about? You really did lose me though.

Anyways, I didn't say prejudice, I said racism. Two different things.

"Racism consists of an idealogy that one group is better than another, whether physically, intellectually, morally etc., the power for one group to dominate and control the other without allowing for equality, and the social construct to perpetuate the former two." ~ Dr. Maulana Karenga, civil rights activist, multiculturalist, sociologist and published author. Basically, the guy wrote the book on racism.

 

[NoUse4aName1286]

Hahaha wtf? What are you talking about? You really did lose me though.

Anyways, I didn't say prejudice, I said racism. Two different things.

"Racism consists of an idealogy that one group is better than another, whether physically, intellectually, morally etc., the power for one group to dominate and control the other without allowing for equality, and the social construct to perpetuate the former two." ~ Dr. Maulana Karenga, civil rights activist, multiculturalist, sociologist and published author. Basically, the guy wrote the book on racism.

I was referring to WWII Germany as follows: The German people were NOt anti-semitic until a catalyst provided them a reason to be (the catalyst was the economic depression and Hitler's rise to power and his corresponding scapegoating). So to, AA fuel's and promotes racism where it did not exist before.

Your response completely ignored what I have said, and you have yet to offer any evidence to the contrary of what I have said, while i have backed my opinion with facts (go ahead, argue that ALL of GERMANY was anti-semitic before Hitler). As such, what you have said has no merit, and again, fails to address my point.

 

[drizzt3117]

I was referring to WWII Germany as follows: The German people were NOt anti-semitic until a catalyst provided them a reason to be (the catalyst was the economic depression and Hitler's rise to power and his corresponding scapegoating). So to, AA fuel's and promotes racism where it did not exist before.

That's really not true. There's been anti-semitism for thousands of years, if not to the degree that it existed in the last century. While certainly a case can be made that the Nazis used the Jews as scapegoats, it's not accurate to say that they were beloved and then suddenly reviled.

I don't think you're arguing this from the right perspective. While it's certainly possible to argue that AA creates resentment, it's equally easy to argue that the presence of minorities in a medical school class creates increased cultural understanding due to diversity. The argument you're trying to make is just going to get nullified by Godwin's Law at this rate.

The argument someone made a few pages ago makes more sense. It's difficult to argue that minorities would get in on their own merits without AA, and support AA at the same time.

 

[flaahless]

I was referring to WWII Germany as follows: The German people were NOt anti-semitic until a catalyst provided them a reason to be (the catalyst was the economic depression and Hitler's rise to power and his corresponding scapegoating). So to, AA fuel's and promotes racism where it did not exist before.

Your response completely ignored what I have said, and you have yet to offer any evidence to the contrary of what I have said, while i have backed my opinion with facts (go ahead, argue that ALL of GERMANY was anti-semitic before Hitler). As such, what you have said has no merit, and again, fails to address my point.

Haha dude you need to fall back. Why do you keep attacking what I say like this is an argumentative debate class? I really had no idea what you were talking about or referencing, but anyway.

So are you saying that economic depression caused the racism of WWII and not the ignorance and prejudice of social darwinism and the Nazis being in a position of power to further perpetuate their ideology? Weird. I didn't know that being poor made you racist. I've been poor my entire life, who would have thought...

And you're also saying that AA is causing racism in America? Weird. I was taught that:

America was founded on racism (see thanksgiving), which was caused by the ignorance of white supremacy (see James Watson), manifest destiny and powerful weapons used to subjugate, dominate and perpetuate the caucasian position of power.

Anyways, despite how PC people want to be, American society is racist. AA isn't causing it, it's ignorance, prejudice and power. AA is merely a way for some people to justify their prejudiced views. It's cathartic.

 

[flaahless]

The argument someone made a few pages ago makes more sense. It's difficult to argue that minorities would get in on their own merits without AA, and support AA at the same time.

Easy. White women. White women, to this day, remain the largest benefactors of Affirmative Action. Just see how many white business women, physicians, attorneys etc. there were pre-1970 as opposed to now.

AA is merely a system used to level the playing field for oppressed groups in American society. It is not a specialty service reserved for minorities who can't cut it on their own.

For the situation for white women, all AA did was open the door. For this current situation, proponents are asking that educators and institutions of higher learning broaden their criteria when evaluating potential applicants. Because we all know that MCAT+GPA is not absolute.

 

[batman1983]

[/color]
Is that because of AA or because your friends already harbor prejudiced thoughts? You're saying the thoughts were caused by AA. I disagree, the thoughts were caused by society. Nonetheless, AA or not, much of America will look down on minorities, it's unfortunate but true.

I cant argue on behalf of my friends/fellow employees if they do or do not already harbor some prejudiced thoughts. Yet, most of them, dont necessarily harbor the same prejudice towards asians, jews, indians, etc, as they do to URMs. And even with regards to URMs, I would say their prejudice is mostly related to AA(rather than other stereotypes/forms of discrimination against URMs). At my job, some of the white employees will say comments or do certain actions that look down on the URM vs other minority employees. Many of my colleagues will say that a fellow black/Hispanic/URM employee is only here to satisfy a quota, whereas the other minority groups (jews, indians, etc) are here because of their capabilities/merits.

Some whites and nonURM minorities feel there is a discrepancy between applicants(whether for medical or any professional school, or even work) caused by AA, and thus can foster a prejudice towards URMs. This is what I believe NoUse4aName1286 was trying to argue. By implementing AA, you create an environment that advances a stereotype/image that can actually hurt URMs.

[/color]
I truly hope that you do get into medical school as well. However, despite popular belief, adcoms are not lying when they say that stats do not guarantee an acceptance. Sure they signify a level of knowledge and hardwork, but there is more to gaining admission to medical school than knowledge and hardwork. Commitment to service, strong sociable qualities, strong moral fiber etc. And despite popular SDN belief, schools still do place a heavy emphasis on stats. So the reason that many "seemingly" qualified applicants are denied admission, is because there just aren't enough spots. Not because of AA and URM populations.

Lastly, there are very few URMS at the UCs, see prop 209 to understand why.

Im not arguing with you that there are few URMs at the UCs, but you can easily see, especially in regards to medical school, that there is a big discrepancy between the stats of URMs and non URMs accepted into medical school(even at the UCs). While stats(GPA and MCATs) don’t guarantee acceptance, there are many qualified applicants with great stats and ECs that have demonstrated the qualities you listed (Commitment to service, strong sociable qualities, strong moral fiber etc) that don’t even get interviews, whereas many URMs with lower stats, ECs, and etc, that get into top tier schools. Now, Im not saying that those nonURMs didn’t get in because of AA(the major reason they didn’t get in is like you said; competition/number of seats), there obviously is a preference made towards URM vs non URM applicant. And this goes back to the OP’s original question of AA being practiced in medical school admissions, and if so, is it right.

Based on the profiles of accepted URMs vs accepted nonURMs, I would say all medical schools do practice some form of AA. Now is it right? Based upon the arguments given, the only justification I can have for AA is that URM doctors are better able to treat URM patients. Other arguments, such as diversity of the class adds to the educational experience, I believe don’t have as much merit in the medical education.

 

[flaahless]

The fact that their was a lot racism in America does not mean AA isn't causing more of it. Also again, I love how it went from English power to 'caucasian' power; as though they didn't also invade, occupy, and oppress Ireland. Heck, they English are STILL in Ireland.



What Drizzt said is that it's impossible to say that AA recipients could have, in general, gotten in on the strengths of their individual apps in a AA free world and STILL argue that it's necessary. See the problem is the conversation has swung from people saying that we shouldn't judge URMs as being less qualified, to saying that AA is necessary because there are reasons why URM applicants ARE less qualified and need a helping hand to get in. I don't think anything in your posts has resolved these two points.

Haha I'm outnumbered here. Anywas, my contention with what Drizz said is that there is not set definition of merits or qualifications that determines how compelling an applicant is or is not. Many SDNers ASSUME that it's the numbers, but it isn't. Like one poster said earlier, some adcoms go by vibe, gut feelings, personal experiences whatever. Admissions is VERY subjective. Therefore, if there isn't an absolute criteria by which to judge an applicant, how do you know that they indeed got in with the help of AA or not? Conjecture.

 

[drizzt3117]

Haha I'm outnumbered here. Anywas, my contention with what Drizz said is that there is not set definition of merits or qualifications that determines how compelling an applicant is or is not. Many SDNers ASSUME that it's the numbers, but it isn't. Like one poster said earlier, some adcoms go by vibe, gut feelings, personal experiences whatever. Admissions is VERY subjective. Therefore, if there isn't an absolute criteria by which to judge an applicant, how do you know that they indeed got in with the help of AA or not? Conjecture.

If we look at the AAMC article I quoted a few days ago, we see that URM candidates do not perform as well as non-URM candidates. That means that either they are less qualified or less capable. If the first is true, then they received help in admissions. If the second is true it means that there's something else going on. I personally don't feel that URM candidates are any less capable than their non-URM colleagues, but I suppose that point can be argued.