•••quote:•••Originally posted by DW:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by owen_osh:
•One of the central issues in the affirmative action debate seems to be the question of why URM's have lower numbers than whites and asians. The usual explanation I hear on SDN is:
1) The overall URM pool is smaller.
I've never really understood how this explains anything.
2) URM's are disadvantaged, etc.
Maybe, I don't know if there are specific numbers on the economic situation of URM applicants compared to non-URM. In any case, URM's must be college students to be applying to med school, so they have an advantage that many Americans of all racial backgrounds lack.
The possibility I've never seen raised is the issue of racial differences. I think as doctors and student doctors we should all be aware that genetic racial differences exist, because those differences are relevent to the health of patients (eg glaucoma, sickle cell, etc.) If genetic racial differences exist in some areas, is it impossible that they also exist in the area of intelligence?
I have read about some studies that show that the mean score on IQ tests for African-Americans was one standard deviation below the mean for whites, and the mean for Mexican-Americans was one half sd below the mean for white. The mean for Asian-Americans is 2-3 points higher than that of whites.
If there are variations in intelligence distributions that correspond to genetic variation between racial groups, then should we ignore the fact or possibility or investigate it? I'm not really sure; maybe it's too dangerous and harmful to look into. But on the other hand, maybe a scientific understanding of intelligence would be helpful.
What if low intelligence were thought of as a disease that could be treated? Perhaps in the future genetic engineering could make us all truly equal.•••••Ok, people, before you reply to this one, remember keep it civil.
The URM pool being too small basically contributes because it decreases intra group competition. Its not a major factor, but dont disallow it.
Just because a URM is in college doesn't mean he or she is not all of a sudden not disadvantaged (poor whites included). If you have to work to support yourself, dont have the same pre collegiate preparation, and have other economic difficulties, the playing field is far from level.
In regards to the IQ test, well, these same economic factors can apply to the IQ test as they might the MCAT. Even the smartest kid won't flourish academically if you put in a substandard school. And since its 2/3 science, the MCAT does a good job of avoiding it, but i do feel that someof our intelligence barometers (the SAT for example) are culturally biased.
Now, in regards to genetic differences, lets first realize that "race" is a rather ambigiuous social construct. Although these categories are useful in disease determinants and other traits, there are appreciable variations in races on many genetic factors, intelligence probably being one.
Before you start making quantum leaps to cloning the "stupid" gene in certain populations, mind you its the confluence of genetics and ENVIRONMENT that produce behavior. You've heard accounts on many SDN threads of highly academic minority students, but you put them in highly unfavorable environmental conditions, and they wouldn't have peformed as well. On the flip side, maybe someone should try taking an affluent kid out of his boarding school, put him in an inner city high school, and see how he performs. End result might not be as favorable. So, maybe if you did do some large scale genetic of some groups, you'll find a fluctuation or two. But we're all the same species here, and some small genetic differences can only be manifested in behavior if the environmental conditions permit so.•••••In response to: "If you have to work to support yourself, dont have the same pre collegiate preparation, and have other economic difficulties, the playing field is far from level."
A large proportion of college undergraduates work to support themselves and many of these also have economic difficulties. It's impossible to have the same precollegiate preparation (there will ALWAYS be people who have more or less access to educational programs). In short, affirmative action cannot function as a micromanaging program. You need broad and clear criteria, similar to welfare.
In response to: "Even the smartest kid won't flourish academically if you put in a substandard school."
I vehemently disagree with this. There is a well known and widely accepted analysis of a particular so-called "substandard" or "underprivileged" school. In this public school, there is a large African American student population and an equally large Vietnamese student population. Remarkably, there is a striking difference in their academic performances as measured by standardized tests. The Vietnamese students scored much higher than their African American peers, even though they went to the same school and shared the same classes.
In response to the "gene" topic:
I agree that environment (in terms of culture, economic status, social status, parental upbringing, etc.) probably has a large impact on academic performance.
A prominent geneticist at my school said it best, "When it comes to genetic differences in intelligence and most other characteristics, there is a far greater difference WITHIN races than BETWEEN them." A very safe, PC, and correct answer. He's a smart guy.
Are there innate differences? Probably. Can they be overcome? Most likely.
