"Affirmative Action"-The Myth Behind the Impact on ds Admission.

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Nothing contributes more to global warming that a discussion on affirmative action and ds admission. As with most passionate exchanges, they are usually long on conjecture and short on statistical evidence to support their claim.

This post is not about whether affirmative action is right or wrong, legal or illegal, fair or unfair, just or unjust, good or bad. It is more about how the ds admission process appears to be dealing with diversities of students that apply and get accepted. Judging the wisdom of Howard adcoms on the acceptance of a student with an AA of 12 may be premature, at least, until all the vital statistics of the student in question are brought into focus. With 127 years of experience for Howard and 132 years for Meharry, one would expect there is enough tradition at the two institutions to have acquired reasonable experience to choose the best candidates to meet the school's criteria. The true measure of whether or not the choices adcoms make are wise does not lie in the absolute values of the mean or range of gpa/dat scores but rather on the retention rate of enrollees and the number of years of practice the graduates of the institution provide the community. The degree of competency of the practitioner is not a function of how "good" a dentist he or she may be, but rather on whether they are able to meet the needs of the immediate community that they serve.

ADEA provides statistical information on gender, age, and ethnic background (White, African American, Hispanic/Latino, Native America/Alaskan Native. Asian/, Pacific Islander, Other, and Not Reported). It also provides information on academic background in terms of pre dental education and mean gpa and DAT scores.

It should be understood, that while statistical information for individual school is provided, it is a great deal more difficult to make generalization regarding particular school because each applicant applies, on the average, to 10 ds.

In order to assess the impact of "affirmative action" on the chances of admission for either the minority or the majority it is necessary to review to available statistical evidence.

Dental schools have an interest in having a heterogeneous group of students. The diversity of the student body extends to sex, ethnic and socio-economic background as well as academic background. The exception to the diversity of the students in terms ethnic background applies to a limited extent to schools such as Meharry, Howard and Puerto Rico. On a national basis, it is no coincidence that the distribution of various groups in the applicant and enrollees pools parallel one another. As can be seen from the table, 55 % of the applicants and 56.6% of the enrollees are males. A similar trend is seen between the applicants/enrollees pool in the ethnic background as well as undergraduate majors. For example, 12.2% of the applicants and 13.2% of the enrollees are chemistry/physics majors. The need for diversity including educational background may explain why in some cases a "less qualified" was accepted over a "more qualified" applicant. A ds whose top 100 applicants are all white or any ethnic group, all males or all females with a degree in electrical engineering are unlikely to be all accepted inspite of their credentials.

The national average of African Americans is roughly 5/ds, which drops to less than 4 when we exclude Mehhary and Howard. The averages, however, are somewhat misleading considering the fact that for 2007 there were 11 ds with zero, 11 with one and 7 with two Affrican American enrolles. Thus, more than half of the ds in the nation had less than two Affrican American per school. Hispanics fared slightly better with 5/school. In this case, as well, there 7 schools with zero, 6 with one, 5 with two, and 11 with three Hispanics/school. As with African Americans, more than half of the schools in the nation had less than 3. For the majority of schools, the numbers appear to suggest that "affirmative action" does not have a significant negative impact on admission nor does it support the notion that those with "more competitive" stats are being displaced by the "less qualified" minorities.

Statistical data was obtained from the 2008 ADEA Official Guide to Dental Schools.

https://access.adea.org/adeassa/ecs...st_id=&p_order_serno=&p_promo_cd=&p_price_cd=


Code:
    2008 ADEA Official Guide to DS                
    Appl    Enrol    App/Enr    % of App% of Enr

Total    12010    4599    2.6      
Male    6604    2603    2.5    55.0    56.6
Female    5404    1995    2.7    45.0    43.3
White    6835    2736    2.5    57.0    59.5
Afr/Am    704    284    2.5    5.9    6.2
His/Lat    679    286    2.4    5.7    6.2
Nat Am    84    35    2.4    0.7    0.7
Asian    2704    937    2.9    22.5    20.4
Other    677    210    3.2    5.6    4.6
N/R    327    111    2.9    2.7    2.4
.

Code:
Undergraduate Majors of DS App/enroll.        

Major        % Appl    % Enroll

Bio        52.6    56.6
Chem/Phy    12.2    13.2
Eng        2.4    3.0
Math/Cs        1.2    1.3
SS        1.3    1.0
Bus        3.7    3.7
Ed        0.6    0.6
L/Hum/Art    2.7    2.9
Pre        12.3    11.4
Other        8.3    7.8
Nm/Nr        2.7    1.7
.


Code:
        Total    M    F    M %    F %
1    Alaba    60    35    24    58    40
2    Arizona    60    31    29    52    48
3    Loma    95    67    28    71    29
4    UCLA    88    48    40    55    45
5    UCSF    85    45    40    53    47
6    UOP    141    78    63    55    45
7    USC    144    94    50    65    35
8    Colo    50    28    16    56    32
9    Conn    39    20    19    51    49
10    Howard    82    45    37    55    45
11    NOVA    93    51    42    55    45
12    Florida    83    33    50    40    60
13    Georgia    63    39    24    62    38
14    S. Illi    50    29    20    58    40
15    Illi    68    39    31    57    46
16    Indiana    101    62    39    61    39
17    Iowa    80    46    34    58    43
18    Kent    56    36    20    64    36
19    Louisv    84    53    31    63    37
20    Louisi    60    37    23    62    38
21    Maryl    130    63    67    48    52
22    Boston    115    60    55    52    48
23    Harvard    35    16    19    46    54
24    Tufts    166    85    81    51    49
25    Mercy    78    42    36    54    46
26    Mich    105    54    51    51    49
27    Minn    96    55    41    57    43
28    Miss    35    18    17    51    49
29    MisouKC    104    55    49    53    47
30    Creigh    85    49    36    58    42
31    Neb    45    19    26    42    58
32    Nevada    78    59    19    76    24
33    UMDNJ    87    45    42    52    48
34    Colum    77    36    41    47    53
35    NY    228    128    99    56    43
36    SUNY SB    39    19    20    49    51
37    SUNY B    88    54    34    61    39
38    N Carol    76    37    39    49    51
39    Case    85    57    28    67    33
40    Ohio    103    63    39    61    38
41    Okla    58    39    19    67    33
42    Oregon    75    51    24    68    32
43    Penn    115    53    62    46    54
44    Pitt    78    52    26    67    33
45    Temple    125    72    53    58    42
46    PR    42    18    24    43    57
47    S Carol    56    41    15    73    27
48    Meharry    51    24    27    47    53
49    Tenn    80    46    34    58    43
50    Baylor    95    49    46    52    48
51    UT Hou    84    36    48    43    57
52    UT-SA    94    50    32    53    34
53    Virg    90    52    38    58    42
54    Wash    55    32    23    58    42
55    W Va    51    31    20    61    39
56    Marque    80    50    30    63    38

                        %           %
        4666    2626    2020    56    43
.
Code:
        Total    Af/Am    Hisp    Af/Am %    Hisp %
1    Alaba    60    2    2    3    3
2    Arizona    60    0    6    0    10
3    Loma    95    6    5    6    5
4    UCLA    88    4    11    5    13
5    UCSF    85    1    3    1    4
6    UOP    141    3    16    2    11
7    USC    144    5    5    3    3
8    Colo    50    0    2    0    4
9    Conn    39    1    0    3    0
10    Howard    82    40    4    49    5
11    NOVA    93    2    9    2    10
12    Florida    83    7    13    8    16
13    Georgia    63    3    3    5    5
14    S. Illi    50    3    3    6    6
15    Illi    68    7    5    10    7
16    Indiana    101    1    0    1    0
17    Iowa    80    2    6    3    8
18    Kent    56    6    1    11    2
19    Louisv    84    8    1    10    1
20    Louisi    60    1    0    2    2
21    Maryl    130    9    3    7    2
22    Boston    115    3    11    3    10
23    Harvard    35    1    1    3    3
24    Tufts    166    14    3    8    2
25    Mercy    78    4    3    5    4
26    Mich    105    10    6    10    6
27    Minn    96    1    6    1    6
28    Miss    35    5    0    14    0
29    MisouKC    104    2    3    2    3
30    Creigh    85    1    6    1    7
31    Neb    45    0    3    0    7
32    Nevada    78    0    4    0    5
33    UMDNJ    87    5    3    6    3
34    Colum    77    5    3    6    4
35    NY    228    3    13    1    6
36    SUNY SB    39    0    1    0    3
37    SUNY B    88    0    1    0    1
38    N Carol    76    10    2    13    3
39    Case    85    0    2    0    2
40    Ohio    103    3    3    3    3
41    Okla    58    0    2    0    3
42    Oregon    75    0    0    0    0
43    Penn    115    4    7    3    6
44    Pitt    78    1    8    1    10
45    Temple    125    4    14    3    11
46    PR    42    0    42    0    100
47    S Carol    56    2    1    4    2
48    Meharry    51    48    0    94    0
49    Tenn    80    10    0    13    0
50    Baylor    95    13    30    14    32
51    UT Hou    84    1    14    1    17
52    UT-SA    94    1    7    1    7
53    Virg    90    2    5    2    6
54    Wash    55    1    4    2    7
55    W Va    51    2    4    4    8
56    Marque    80    0    5    0    6
                      
                        %    %
        4666    267    315    6    7
.

This shouldn't even be a discussion.

SIMPLY PUT NO PERSON SHOULD BE JUDGED BY THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN/ETHNICITY ON ANY PHYSICAL OR MENTAL ABILITIES WHETHER BENEFECIAL OR HARMFUL TO THAT PERSON BECAUSE THE COLOR OF SOMEONES SKIN/ETHNICITY DOES NOT GIVE THEM ANY MORE ABILITY OR DISADVANTAGE OVER ANOTHER.
 
Does professional sports have affirmative action? Or are players recruited, drafted, signed, etc based on their skills and abilities?
Football and basketball, (not too sure about baseball and too lazy to Google right now) are dominated by what would be URMs in dentistry. Would it be fair if better players are passed over because there are just too many people of their race/ethnicity in the league?
Anyway, I have no evidence or references here. These are just thoughts that popped into my head. So if people start trying to throw stats in my face to prove me wrong, they can go stick their heads in doodoo.
Don't waste your time. If you show that URMs constitute a statistically disproportionate amount of Group X, people will say things like "that's just the way it is, you're missing the point, well that barely scratches the surface of what they *really* deserve" etc. But if you should be so foolish as to point to the absurdity of there needing to be quotas based solely on race in pursuit of diversity, you'll be labeled a bigot.

Affirmative action should only exist when it provides a much-needed advantage for people of very low socioeconomic status. I don't have the data on hand as I'm on mobile but when you control for race it is evident that the real imbalance can be found between those with money and those without. Poor whites aren't doing better than rich blacks, well-off hispanics fare better than their poor counterparts, etc. Wealth (or lack thereof) transcends race. This shouldn't be surprising, but I guess it interferes with the foregone conclusions some people have.

In other news, I've decided to boycott the NBA due to their distinct lack of East-Asian players. Truly despicable, and I for one will not stand idly by as this gross miscarriage of equality plays out.

"According to racial equality activist Richard Lapchick, the NBA in 2015 was composed of 74.4 percent black players, 23.3 percent white players, 1.8 percent Latinos, and 0.2 percent Asian."

Those numbers show both overrepresentation and underrepresentation of certain races compared to the overall population of the US. Clearly this is evidence of systemic discrimination and racism that must be fought and there is no better way to do that than by starting a hashtag initiative. It is impossible that the makeup of the NBA exists in its current state as a result of different cultures and races having unique backgrounds, interests, values...

#NFLSoBlackAndWhiteInDisproportionateRatios
 
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Don't waste your time. If you show that URMs constitute a statistically disproportionate amount of Group X, people will say things like "that's just the way it is, you're missing the point, well that barely scratches the surface of what they *really* deserve" etc. But if you should be so foolish as to point to the absurdity of there needing to be quotas based solely on race in pursuit of diversity, you'll be labeled a bigot.

Affirmative action should only exist when it provides a much-needed advantage for people of very low socioeconomic status. I don't have the data on hand as I'm on mobile but when you control for race it is evident that the real imbalance can be found between those with money and those without. Poor whites aren't doing better than rich blacks, well-off hispanics fare better than their poor counterparts, etc. Wealth (or lack thereof) transcends race. This shouldn't be surprising, but I guess it interferes with the foregone conclusions some people have.

See: intersectionality. See: the achievement gap. See: institutional discrimination. See: any number of Sociology 101 theories.

All of those factors (SES, race, class, gender and/or sex) often follow patterns in achievement, access, and conversely lack thereof.
 
Smh. No matter what happens, if I get in people with think it's because of affirmative action. Im not sure why you guys are pitching fits because I'm most states us African Americans don't get in at all. FYI almost everyone who got into dental school made it on their own merit. We ALL work hard for a seat. They don't just let anyone in. you guys act like 2.0gpa and 10 DATs are taking your seats because of color. Please stop.
 
Smh. No matter what happens, if I get in people with think it's because of affirmative action. Im not sure why you guys are pitching fits because I'm most states us African Americans don't get in at all. FYI almost everyone who got into dental school made it on their own merit. We ALL work hard for a seat. They don't just let anyone in. you guys act like 2.0gpa and 10 DATs are taking your seats because of color. Please stop.

I'm all for affirmative action...if it's based off of socioeconomic status.

There was a dude a while back who applied to med school as an asian indian and got denied. He applied as an african american (with the same gpa, stats, etc.) and got accepted. He also admitted during his interview he was born into a family of doctors, from an affluent neighborhood and certainly wasn't disadvantaged. He got in. Raises some questions, no?
 
I'm all for affirmative action...if it's based off of socioeconomic status.

There was a dude a while back who applied to med school as an asian indian and got denied. He applied as an african american (with the same gpa, stats, etc.) and got accepted. He also admitted during his interview he was born into a family of doctors, from an affluent neighborhood and certainly wasn't disadvantaged. He got in. Raises some questions, no?

Too bad the situation you are talking about is referring to the comedian Mindy Kaling's brother's very unverified and most likely fake story.

The fact that it is definitely impossible to fake a name and ethnicity on a medical school application just adds to my doubts about his story.

That being said, believe what you will.
 
I don't really have much if an opinion on affirmative action, but it is my understanding that white and asian dentists typically do not work in lower socioeconomic areas with high black and latino populations.

So for everyone complaining about schools accepting applicants that are more likely to work in the areas that actually need help, would you prefer to perpetuate the cycle of underserved populations not being given the resources needed to get into a better situation?

I'm African American, as in I actually immigrated from Africa, and while I've never struggled as much as maybe a poor family living in Detroit regardless of skin color, I have faced a lot of adversity based purely on my ethnicity, and growing up I have DEFINITELY not been given access to as much resources as my white and asian peers.

Despite being from a better area though, I fully intend to practice in a lower socioeconomic area because when I was little and growing up that's where I lived and it was only due to free clinics and church practices that I was able to receive and dental or healthcare in the first place. If we're being honest most people don't want to do that, but there is definitely a higher likelihood that blacks and latinos will go back to these places, regardless of their socioeconomic status.

Just my 2 cents though.

I can't wait until someone tells me I only got into dental school because of my ethnicity. Just like they said about college and every position I've ever held despite them not having a better application than me or better statistics.
 
Smh. No matter what happens, if I get in people with think it's because of affirmative action. Im not sure why you guys are pitching fits because I'm most states us African Americans don't get in at all. FYI almost everyone who got into dental school made it on their own merit. We ALL work hard for a seat. They don't just let anyone in. you guys act like 2.0gpa and 10 DATs are taking your seats because of color. Please stop.
Look at the statistics and say that again. Merit or not, it is statistically shown that "URMs" gain acceptance with much lower stats versus ORMs and those belonging to "nondisadvantaged" ethnicity.

And BTW, I'm not "jealous", moreso frustrated at the inconsistencies of the admissions process
 
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Y'all are seriously the biggest whiners I have ever seen. Yes, African Americans/Latinos/Native Americans can get in with slightly lower grades but that is because of supply and demand. Whites and Asians dominate admissions, while URMs apply and are accepted at much less frequent numbers. People are complaining about Howard and Meharry, just look at how many schools only accept 1 URM and the rest of the class is completely white!

Why is affirmative action a thing? Yes, it's not fair, but it's there for a reason. It's not JUST for socioeconomic purposes. For some reason people like going to doctors that they trust, and often times that means going to a doctor who is similar to them. Ensuring you have doctors/dentists of all nationalities/origins/ethnicities means you can treat those people that wouldn't normally be treated.

Yes, it's unfair, but seriously. Quit your whining. You all sound more like entitled brats and less like dental school applicants.
 
Look at the statistics and say that again. Merit or not, it is statistically shown that "URMs" gain acceptance with much lower stats versus ORMs and those belonging to "nondisadvantaged" ethnicity.
Can you share where you found this information?
 
Y'all are seriously the biggest whiners I have ever seen. Yes, African Americans/Latinos/Native Americans can get in with slightly lower grades but that is because of supply and demand. Whites and Asians dominate admissions, while URMs apply and are accepted at much less frequent numbers. People are complaining about Howard and Meharry, just look at how many schools only accept 1 URM and the rest of the class is completely white!

Why is affirmative action a thing? Yes, it's not fair, but it's there for a reason. It's not JUST for socioeconomic purposes. For some reason people like going to doctors that they trust, and often times that means going to a doctor who is similar to them. Ensuring you have doctors/dentists of all nationalities/origins/ethnicities means you can treat those people that wouldn't normally be treated.

Yes, it's unfair, but seriously. Quit your whining. You all sound more like entitled brats and less like dental school applicants.

Out of curiosity, how/why are Asians as a minority group able to dominate admissions while other minorities cannot?

When people talk about the history of URM is tough, they tend to forget how the Vietnamese escaped their country with nothing during the Vietnam War (1900's) or how the Chinese were sold off to CA as cheap labor during the gold rush (1800's).

When you mention patients going to doctors they trust/similar, can't I argue growing up with similar socioeconomic status can bond the doctor/patient as well?
 
Out of curiosity, how/why are Asians as a minority group able to dominate admissions while other minorities cannot?

When people talk about the history of URM is tough, they tend to forget how the Vietnamese escaped their country with nothing during the Vietnam War (1900's) or how the Chinese were sold off to CA as cheap labor during the gold rush (1800's).

When you mention patients going to doctors they trust/similar, can't I argue growing up with similar socioeconomic status can bond the doctor/patient as well?

They don't really dominate compared to whites, who make up about half of all acceptances. I threw Asians in there because they also do really well, but still only half as well as whites.

And really? You're telling me you go into your doctor's office and the first thing you say is "Hey doc, I had a rough upbringing and we really didn't have any money. Did you have the same experiences I did?"
 
Out of curiosity, how/why are Asians as a minority group able to dominate admissions while other minorities cannot?

When people talk about the history of URM is tough, they tend to forget how the Vietnamese escaped their country with nothing during the Vietnam War (1900's) or how the Chinese were sold off to CA as cheap labor during the gold rush (1800's).

When you mention patients going to doctors they trust/similar, can't I argue growing up with similar socioeconomic status can bond the doctor/patient as well?

What i would be interested in seeing is a comparison between the acceptance rates for African immigrants and Black Americans. It's not commonly known, but African immigrants are among the most educated minority groups in America, especially Nigerian immigrants (you can look up this information), I believe this is because all immigrants share a similar mindset when coming to America, especially because those who make it are usually the ones educated enough to come here in the first place. It is anecdotal, but i have not met very many Asians whose families have been in the US since the 1800's and are very successful, it is usually the ones who are the first generation here who do well due to parental expectation and upbringing.

You also have to take into account that there is legitimate institutional racism that has been at play for generations. The school systems and resources provided to predominately Black and Latino populations are abysmal compared to those offered in more affluent neighborhoods and cities. There is no debating that. Go to the ghetto in Louisiana and see how well a student in that culture can do.

Asians, while they have most definitely been stereotyped and face racial prejudice, have been more accepted in traditionally white locations and allowed to assimilate peacefully for the most part, where as blacks and latinos have been somewhat isolated. This provides them with much of the same advantageous resources given to whites, which explains why they are able to "dominate" the field in the way they do.

And to your last point, it is not very easy to guess socioeconomic background, and seeing as how no dentists broadcasts their background on their website i find it hard to believe that you can choose a dentist to visit based on socioeconomic similarities. Race is a much easier metric to predict compatibility on.

While i think it is an easier metric to predict compatibility, i do not think it is more accurate than socioeconomic status. You are completely right and i agree wholeheartedly that race has very little to do with the merit of an individual nor does it have much to do with their personality or behavior traits. Unfortunately, the world and country we live in is most definitely still culturally segregated, and what you will obviously find is that when you do examine demographics based on socioeconomic status they unsurprisingly match up pretty well with the demographics you would see if you categorized by race.

These are just my young and naive opinions though.
 
What i would be interested in seeing is a comparison between the acceptance rates for African immigrants and Black Americans. It's not commonly known, but African immigrants are among the most educated minority groups in America, especially Nigerian immigrants (you can look up this information), I believe this is because all immigrants share a similar mindset when coming to America, especially because those who make it are usually the ones educated enough to come here in the first place. It is anecdotal, but i have not met very many Asians whose families have been in the US since the 1800's and are very successful, it is usually the ones who are the first generation here who do well due to parental expectation and upbringing.

You also have to take into account that there is legitimate institutional racism that has been at play for generations. The school systems and resources provided to predominately Black and Latino populations are abysmal compared to those offered in more affluent neighborhoods and cities. There is no debating that. Go to the ghetto in Louisiana and see how well a student in that culture can do.

Asians, while they have most definitely been stereotyped and face racial prejudice, have been more accepted in traditionally white locations and allowed to assimilate peacefully for the most part, where as blacks and latinos have been somewhat isolated. This provides them with much of the same advantageous resources given to whites, which explains why they are able to "dominate" the field in the way they do.

And to your last point, it is not very easy to guess socioeconomic background, and seeing as how no dentists broadcasts their background on their website i find it hard to believe that you can choose a dentist to visit based on socioeconomic similarities. Race is a much easier metric to predict compatibility on.

While i think it is an easier metric to predict compatibility, i do not think it is more accurate than socioeconomic status. You are completely right and i agree wholeheartedly that race has very little to do with the merit of an individual nor does it have much to do with their personality or behavior traits. Unfortunately, the world and country we live in is most definitely still culturally segregated, and what you will obviously find is that when you do examine demographics based on socioeconomic status they unsurprisingly match up pretty well with the demographics you would see if you categorized by race.

These are just my young and naive opinions though.

I agree with your post. You just had the patience to type out what I did not.

I'll admit that I *hate* affirmative action. I think it's incredibly stupid and unfair. However, the world we live in is far from perfect and it seems it's a necessity.

However, I will say that hard quotas are dumb and need to go.
 
I agree with your post. You just had the patience to type out what I did not.

I'll admit that I *hate* affirmative action. I think it's incredibly stupid and unfair. However, the world we live in is far from perfect and it seems it's a necessity.

However, I will say that hard quotas are dumb and need to go.

I definitely agree with you

But are there really hard quotas though? i don't believe there are, though i admit i don't have the evidence to back that claim up.

This all reminds of the UT Austin Fischer lawsuit, This girl is claiming that an african american student stole her seat despite her being more suited for the university. But she isn't even qualified for UT AND UT's freshman class what around 3.5-4% Black. So what about the other 96% of the class? Are they not considered taking her place? These arguments really bother me, because blacks make up an underrepresented percentage of classes anyways, did that ONE black acceptance in a class really stop a specific applicant from getting in? not the 60+ other white and asian acceptances?

Sorry if this sounds like rambling, this argument just really annoys me. It's just what people use to rationalize their denials.
 
I definitely agree with you

But are there really hard quotas though? i don't believe there are, though i admit i don't have the evidence to back that claim up.

This all reminds of the UT Austin Fischer lawsuit, This girl is claiming that an african american student stole her seat despite her being more suited for the university. But she isn't even qualified for UT AND UT's freshman class what around 3.5-4% Black. So what about the other 96% of the class? Are they not considered taking her place? These arguments really bother me, because blacks make up an underrepresented percentage of classes anyways, did that ONE black acceptance in a class really stop a specific applicant from getting in? not the 60+ other white and asian acceptances?

Sorry if this sounds like rambling, this argument just really annoys me. It's just what people use to rationalize their denials.

I don't think there are for dental school, but other countries are starting to establish set quotas for company board members, etc.
 
They don't really dominate compared to whites, who make up about half of all acceptances. I threw Asians in there because they also do really well, but still only half as well as whites.

And really? You're telling me you go into your doctor's office and the first thing you say is "Hey doc, I had a rough upbringing and we really didn't have any money. Did you have the same experiences I did?"
Whites make up about half of all acceptances because they have the largest number of applicants. In 2008, there are 6.8k White applicants, 2.7k Asians, 704 African Americans, and 679 Hispanics. It's not surprising to me that there are many qualified applicants in those 6.8k people. If you want to see an equal amount of students from each group, schools can only accept about 10% of the White applicants, 30% Asians, while accepting close to 90% African Americans and 100% Hispanics.

What I was arguing was having similar experiences can bond people just as well as similar ethnicity. I assume patients talk to their doctors and get to know them during their visits? Using your logic, do you go to your doctor and say "Hey doc, we are from the same ethnicity group, let's be best friends."
 
Whites make up about half of all acceptances because they have the largest number of applicants. In 2008, there are 6.8k White applicants, 2.7k Asians, 704 African Americans, and 679 Hispanics. It's not surprising to me that there are many qualified applicants in those 6.8k people. If you want to see an equal amount of students from each group, schools can only accept about 10% of the White applicants, 30% Asians, while accepting close to 90% African Americans and 100% Hispanics.

What I was arguing was having similar experiences can bond people just as well as similar ethnicity. I assume patients talk to their doctors and get to know them during their visits? Using your logic, do you go to your doctor and say "Hey doc, we are from the same ethnicity group, let's be best friends."

I don't think you're wrong but your logic is flawed. Anybody can find equal footing to bond over once they get to know eachother, the issue is what criteria do people initially select their care providers by? Alma mater? Last name? Favorite professional sports franchise? No, you go by location and price. Well whose more likely to work where professional healthcare personnel are needed the most? People with the same ethnic background of the population in need.
 
You also have to take into account that there is legitimate institutional racism that has been at play for generations. The school systems and resources provided to predominately Black and Latino populations are abysmal compared to those offered in more affluent neighborhoods and cities. There is no debating that. Go to the ghetto in Louisiana and see how well a student in that culture can do.
That's what people suggesting affirmative action should be focused on socioeconomic status are supporting, help those in need rather than simply your ethnicity.

People with the same ethnic background of the population in need.
I agree with you if you said "people with the same ethnic background who have similar experience of the population in need"

Despite being from a better area though, I fully intend to practice in a lower socioeconomic area because when I was little and growing up that's where I lived and it was only due to free clinics and church practices that I was able to receive and dental or healthcare in the first place. If we're being honest most people don't want to do that, but there is definitely a higher likelihood that blacks and latinos will go back to these places, regardless of their socioeconomic status.
See reason above. I believe your intention to practice in a lower socioeconomic area has more to do with your experiences than simply your ethnicity.
 
That's what people suggesting affirmative action should be focused on socioeconomic status are supporting, help those in need rather than simply your ethnicity.


I agree with you if you said "people with the same ethnic background who have similar experience of the population in need"


See reason above. I believe your intention to practice in a lower socioeconomic area has more to do with your experiences than simply your ethnicity.

I must definitely agree with you, but for the most part minorities are usually the ones who are not willing to practice in these areas and have experiences that align with them.

I am sure there are a lot of white people who have very similar experiences and get in with less than stellar stats due to what they had to overcome, but they're overlooked a little because of the vast size if the white applicant class.

I personally don't think race unites individuals or provides a common set of experiences for the most part (obviously everyone has the possibility of being prejudiced against anywhere) but there is definitely a correlation between ethnicity and likelihood to practice on poorer areas.
 
What i would be interested in seeing is a comparison between the acceptance rates for African immigrants and Black Americans. It's not commonly known, but African immigrants are among the most educated minority groups in America, especially Nigerian immigrants (you can look up this information), I believe this is because all immigrants share a similar mindset when coming to America, especially because those who make it are usually the ones educated enough to come here in the first place. It is anecdotal, but i have not met very many Asians whose families have been in the US since the 1800's and are very successful, it is usually the ones who are the first generation here who do well due to parental expectation and upbringing.

You also have to take into account that there is legitimate institutional racism that has been at play for generations. The school systems and resources provided to predominately Black and Latino populations are abysmal compared to those offered in more affluent neighborhoods and cities. There is no debating that. Go to the ghetto in Louisiana and see how well a student in that culture can do.

Asians, while they have most definitely been stereotyped and face racial prejudice, have been more accepted in traditionally white locations and allowed to assimilate peacefully for the most part, where as blacks and latinos have been somewhat isolated. This provides them with much of the same advantageous resources given to whites, which explains why they are able to "dominate" the field in the way they do.

And to your last point, it is not very easy to guess socioeconomic background, and seeing as how no dentists broadcasts their background on their website i find it hard to believe that you can choose a dentist to visit based on socioeconomic similarities. Race is a much easier metric to predict compatibility on.

While i think it is an easier metric to predict compatibility, i do not think it is more accurate than socioeconomic status. You are completely right and i agree wholeheartedly that race has very little to do with the merit of an individual nor does it have much to do with their personality or behavior traits. Unfortunately, the world and country we live in is most definitely still culturally segregated, and what you will obviously find is that when you do examine demographics based on socioeconomic status they unsurprisingly match up pretty well with the demographics you would see if you categorized by race.

These are just my young and naive opinions though.

Damn, my life was almost just made by this post. :claps:

Anyone who doesn't understand why AA is necessary and needed to "equal out the playing field" needs to read this post. For whatever reason, people love saying that black and latinx folk get in with lower stats solely by them being an URM and its not fair because they're taking seats from qualified [[[white&asian]]] folk. What's not fair is the institutionalized/systematic racism that cause these disparities in education and resources between minorities and folks with privilege in the first place.

Scary to think that a lot of future dentists have this "unfair advantage" mindset, but then again, they won't go to underrepresented neighborhoods that need the most care in the first place.
 
I finished dental school, so my opinions have heightened on this topic. There are only a few people who actually get into dental school--and THROUGH dental school--on their own merits. This isn’t to say that minorities don’t have their own set of resources, but I've seen classmates admitted based upon how much money their parents donate, religious affiliation, socioeconomic affiliation, cultural kinship, and so forth. So race—believe it or not—has little to do with it. And I think it is safe to say that if it weren't for cronyism, passed down old test answers/pictures on flash drives otherwise known as “resources,” and unethical behavior that I've seen IN clinic/pre-clinic and IN didactic courses otherwise known as "sticking together", then many of your colleagues you all shared the DDS/DMD experience with would not have made it to where they are today.

AA/URM/or whatever moniker there is to describe African American/Hispanic/other students really isn't a threat towards anything most dental students or admits already have. It's really a threat to the corrupt system that has maintained their status for decades. So again, nothing to worry about if your resources are still there from your parents, bro squad, frat/sorority, and the like.
 
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