"Affirmative Action"-The Myth Behind the Impact on ds Admission.

[Predent25]

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[LaFleur]

Hey AA, I didn't have time to answer your post until now

You pretty much just called me naive, sheltered and a terrible person/healthcare provider.

I do think you seem naive and sheltered. I don't think you're a terrible person/healthcare provider. There's no way for me to gauge what kind of person you are or what kind of healthcare provider you'll be. I don't have any opinions on you specifically. I'm just saying that I personally think a part of the attitude expressed in your post may be a negative if it is applied more generally. I am in no way saying that you do this or that I think I know who you are.

I'm anti-affirmative action and don't believe that people should be given an advantage because they're URM.

Okay, you're anti-AA. That's fine. That's your prerogative. I have no problem with that. I do, however, have a problem with your assertion that discrimination doesn't exist.

Too many people make excuses for their educational shortcomings instead of taking action to improve their situation or life. That's my opinion. Does that make me insensitive, lack compassion, and unwilling to understand? I don't think so.

Yes, to me it does. Who are you to say that people are making excuses for whatever shortcomings (educational or otherwise) they have instead of taking action to improve their situation or life? I think this is a very judgmental thing to say and a negative attitude to have in general. Everyone is different, and situations affect individuals differently. I don't think it's your place to say whether someone is taking action to improve their own life or not. How are you supposed to know how that person is being affected situations in their life? Or whether they are "taking action" or not? What is the definition of taking action? Is everyone expected to do this in the same way?

This attitude is part of what set me off in your original post (in addition to you claiming that discrimination doesn't exist). I really went off on you, but I can see an attitude like this being applied more generally than in just situation (I am not saying that you do this). As someone who spends her spare time volunteering with individuals of mostly at-risk populations when they are in sensitive situations, I can honestly say that I have seen healthcare providers judge these people based on their own opinions, to the detriment of the patient. I admit that this is a personal overreaction of mine, but my sensitivity to this is based on what I have witnessed more than I'd like to admit.

That's all. Hope that clears things up.

 

[Cello]

For anyone who doesn't believe that some children are significantly disadvantaged by their environment, I recommend that you watch The Wire all the way through.

 

[iralex801]

The reason is economics. Poor white kids have a much harder time getting into colleges than their wealthier peers too, it's not about skin color, it's about the economic divide. The difference between Caucasians and most minorities is that white kids are LESS LIKELY to be poor than are MOST minorities (not necessarily all). Poverty is the key obstacle before most URMs as a result of institutional racism, but it is poverty which truly disadvantages most students. A white child in a poverty stricken block in the inner city will likely have just as few prospects as their underprivileged black peers who grew up in the same neighborhood. A wealthy black child (Obama's daughters for instance) will likely have all of the advantages of their white peers. Again, it's a game of proportions. White children and even Asian children as a whole tend to be better off economically than their black and Hispanic peers, which is why blacks and Hispanics tend to be URMs while Asians usually are not (at least, it is my understanding that they are not).

That said, it should not be about race, because then the system is locked into classifying people based upon their skin color and ethnicity rather than their individual circumstances. A system based on economic circumstances would be essentially unbiased against all colors and ethnicities because it would not be based upon skin color or ethnicity, rather individual economic circumstance. Such a system would be more inclined to view students more as individuals (and more importantly, as PEOPLE) rather than statistics. The moment you give OR take something away from someone based upon their ethnicity, you have succeeded in dividing them from the rest of society based upon the color of their skin, which seems to be a step back from a society which values equality for ALL races.

You make a lot of good points, and I don't really have a rebuttal. Under your proposed system, society would be helping out not only poor URMs, but poor Whites/Asians also.

However, the only flaw I see in your system is maybe discrimination plays a larger role in impairment of learning by URMs than you may believe. By discrimination, I mean being belittled/discouraged/picked on by classmates, teachers, administration, etc. Whether this exists or not is up to the individual. In certain areas, people say it exists, and it others, people say it doesn't.

But for analysis, let's assume it does exist to an extent. I know that when I am feeling rejected/sad/depressed/etc, it is extremely hard for me to study and focus. I believe discrimination can cause those emotions in an URM. I also agree with LaFleur that everyone is different and one URM can take it a lot harder being called a racial slur than a different URM. So like LaFleur said, who is one to judge how a situation affects a certain individual.

Also, I want to point out that if I was a voter to pass AA or not, I would pass it because I feel sympathy for the URMs who take it hard when discriminated against. Although, I know not all URMs are discriminated against and some will take advantage, I just feel too much sympathy for the URMs that are discriminated against and take it really hard.

However, lastly, if I was a father of a URM, I would have AwesomeTeeth's mentality and tell him/her to toughen up. I would tell him/her, the world is not always just, and to make it, you got to be mentally strong. I would tell him/her you can sit here and make excuses, or you can work hard and ignore ignorant people to reach your goals.

 

[385835]

Why do "dental schools have an interest in having a heterogeneous group of students?"

 

[AwesomeTeeth]

Iralex and LaFleur, very mature and thought out responses. I don't really have anything else to add other than I respect your opinions.

Why do "dental schools have an interest in having a heterogeneous group of students?"

Because America is a much more heterogeneous population these days and dentistry is trying to reflect that.

 

[lnngu]

Acceptance into any program should be based on personal merit, not race.

Money talks.

I keep looking for the sarcasm in this pair of posts, but all I'm finding is hypocrisy....

 

[385835]

Iralex and LaFleur, very mature and thought out responses. I don't really have anything else to add other than I respect your opinions.



Because America is a much more heterogeneous population these days and dentistry is trying to reflect that.

Dentistry should be an ethical practice starting with admission to dental. Dental schools should not engage in bigotry. Dental schools should not ask applicants about their race and ethnic background.

It is obviously unethical to include race, ethnicity, and gender into admissions. The huge cost of being discriminatory far out weights any tiny benefit from diversity.

 

[Sal427]

Hey, does anyone have any recent stats on accepted URM gpa/DAT?

 

[Dentalguy8621]

Oh

 

[dentalhopeful24]

After reading part of this thread, I wanted to make a few quick points: 1) Whether or not we agree about whether AA is an appropriate way to remedy past discrimination, I think we should all agree that we shouldn't assume that any individual student is a product of AA simply by virtue of his or her race, gender, etc. 2) I would also like to make the point that, as we will be working in a public service industry, public demand might rightly be considered as one of the "merits" of the application process. If some patients prefer to see a dentist from their same socio-economic/ cultural background, dental schools may want to consider those things in granting admissions to dental school. After all, dental schools do interviews for that very purpose--to see if you are personable/ capable of serving as a health service professional. 3) I know this is highly controversial, but traditional "merits", including GPA and DAT scores, are also highly subjective and culturally influenced. We all know that grades are not based strictly on what you know (ask anyone who has ever had someone in the class who was dating the TA) and neither is the DAT (test-taking skills and cultural understandings, often taught more effectively in upper/middle-class school systems are necessary as well.) I myself don't particularly agree with the method by which AA is implemented in the dental school application process (after all, I'm a white male who had to apply twice to get admitted) but I don't think it's fair to say that GPAs and DATs are "objective merits" when so many subjective factors go into those as well.

 

[Dentalguy8621]

After reading part of this thread, I wanted to make a few quick points: 1) Whether or not we agree about whether AA is an appropriate way to remedy past discrimination, I think we should all agree that we shouldn't assume that any individual student is a product of AA simply by virtue of his or her race, gender, etc. 2) I would also like to make the point that, as we will be working in a public service industry, public demand might rightly be considered as one of the "merits" of the application process. If some patients prefer to see a dentist from their same socio-economic/ cultural background, dental schools may want to consider those things in granting admissions to dental school. After all, dental schools do interviews for that very purpose--to see if you are personable/ capable of serving as a health service professional. 3) I know this is highly controversial, but traditional "merits", including GPA and DAT scores, are also highly subjective and culturally influenced. We all know that grades are not based strictly on what you know (ask anyone who has ever had someone in the class who was dating the TA) and neither is the DAT (test-taking skills and cultural understandings, often taught more effectively in upper/middle-class school systems are necessary as well.) I myself don't particularly agree with the method by which AA is implemented in the dental school application process (after all, I'm a white male who had to apply twice to get admitted) but I don't think it's fair to say that GPAs and DATs are "objective merits" when so many subjective factors go into those as well.

I'm gonna be applying as a URM whose numbers don't reflect those URM schools admissions (3.97 oGPA) I do agree that an individual with a 12 AA is just not a good fit. Just my opinion though.

 

[ToothbrushBuddy]

Why does everyone automatically assume that URMs have a low DAT and GPA? That viewpoint is racism in itself. That aside, I am a firm advocate of AA policies. Not because URMs can't successfully compete with their white counterparts, but because they CAN, and they are often overlooked for jobs and positions in schools that they ARE qualified for because they are not the "corporate color." For example, go to your local grocery store, notice how the cashier and bagger is probably a minority woman that has worked there for years. Now ask to speak with the manager, I can guarantee that manager is a white man who doesn't even have his degree and is not any more qualified than the cashier that has worked for that same company for years.

 

[Miley Cyrus.]

Why does everyone automatically assume that URMs have a low DAT and GPA? That viewpoint is racism in itself. That aside, I am a firm advocate of AA policies. Not because URMs can't successfully compete with their white counterparts, but because they CAN, and they are often overlooked for jobs and positions in schools that they ARE qualified for because they are not the "corporate color." For example, go to your local grocery store, notice how the cashier and bagger is probably a minority woman that has worked there for years. Now ask to speak with the manager, I can guarantee that manager is a white man who doesn't even have his degree and is not any more qualified than the cashier that has worked for that same company for years.

 

[Slumber]

Why does everyone automatically assume that URMs have a low DAT and GPA? That viewpoint is racism in itself. That aside, I am a firm advocate of AA policies. Not because URMs can't successfully compete with their white counterparts, but because they CAN, and they are often overlooked for jobs and positions in schools that they ARE qualified for because they are not the "corporate color." For example, go to your local grocery store, notice how the cashier and bagger is probably a minority woman that has worked there for years. Now ask to speak with the manager, I can guarantee that manager is a white man who doesn't even have his degree and is not any more qualified than the cashier that has worked for that same company for years.

It should be based on socio-economic status, not by race.

 

[ToothbrushBuddy]

It should be based on socio-economic status, not by race.

I agree with this viewpoint

 

[SXCoronado]

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[sgv]

The most qualified individuals (highest DAT/GPA, best Personal statements, best letters, most charismatic interviewers) should be accepted regardless of race or socioeconomic status. The best get in and this produces the most competent healthcare professionals - and isn't that what this is all about? I don't think patients ever say "I wish there was a more diverse racial array of dentists." Patients say "I wish there were better dentists." I wouldn't care if my class was 100% (any race) if they were the brightest and best. Who cares what race you are? We should all be held to the same standards for true equality.

Just my utilitarian mindset.

lay people don't know good dentistry from bad. they only care about painless dentistry and the vibe they get from the first 5 minutes of meeting you. they don't know anything about tapered crowns, retention features or occlusion. what if the white man has taken advantage of and oppressed the ancestors of all african americans today such that many whites today are economically advantaged directly as a result of a history of black oppression and economic abuse. what if whites have historically punished african americans for trying to achieve something as little as reading to something as major as owning land or a business or having access to a decent education for their children. what if whites in charge of admissions have discriminated against blacks in the past and are now just making up for the loss as a way of saying "oops, sorry"?

it's like starting a game of starcraft with 20 SCVs, 2 command centers, and 20,000 minerals while your opponent starts off with 4 drones and only 1 hatchery. What if the guy playing terran cheated? Who's off to a good start? Who's going to feel guilty about cheating?

 

[SXCoronado]

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[sgv]

just because it isn't fair doesn't mean it's okay to say "oh he's black, lower stats are fine". we should be working to improve economics across the boards so from start to finish, every child has the same opportunities, and the best will earn their positions based upon talent

so in every other aspect except medicine, you'd flip a turd if I went back in time, put your grandfather and grandmother into slavery, then paid your father and mother well below a standard of living, and removed basic services such as acquiring a loan, owning a home, or having an education resulting in you, in present day, living in a ghetto surrounded by poverty, crime, illiteracy and drugs? if i came back to the future and ran into you living in the projects and tried to make up for the terrible things I did, how exactly would i go about doing so?

you say you want fairness but you're willing to look past a history of oppression only because it suits someone, a white bro i'm assuming, in your position? even if you were as poor as any black guy in the ghetto, you'd still be more advantaged as a white bro living in the ghetto.

 

[SXCoronado]

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[SXCoronado]

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[sgv]

I honestly can't even tell what you're saying. I'm talking about reaching your goal regardless of limitations.

My abuelo immigrated and became one of the first hispanic students at Texas A&M back in the 40s. He became successful here in America even when there were institutions that wouldn't serve Mexicans purely out of racism . He has never expected anyone to give him special privileges for being oppressed - you have to prove you deserve it just like anyone else. That's what I'm saying.

what i'm saying is that public institutions, federal and state, oppressed a specific minority group. how would that legislative body make up for bad judgement today?

 

[SXCoronado]

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[sgv]

I'm half hispanic, my last name is Coronado. I don't expect to be given anything for my race.

this has nothing to do with your opinion on what you think you deserve. people demand reparations for the terrible things that were allowed by the state and federal government. you may not want reparations but i'm sure you grandfather would. but he's probably not alive so the best the government can do is help his descendants out a little bit.

 

[sgv]

Public institutions did do that. My abuelo has told me about it, how people assumed he was less intelligent, how they wouldn't serve him at a restaurant because he was mejicano, how he was viewed as less than ideal in business practices. You know what he did? Bossed through it.

I'm not claiming to have the answer. I'm saying that when a school goes, "____ minority is allowed to have lower scores because they've been historically oppressed" something is lost in translation. It's racist and doesn't fix anything. It breeds inequality in efforts given - what if a minority student could easily achieve the highest standard of scores, but chooses to be lazy because of AA? Does this not ruin American ideology of earning things?

well then maybe your grandfather should have protested against his legislators for pushing the bill for affirmative action. but would it honestly have mattered because the majority of opinion at the time was against your and your grandfather's opinions.

 

[sgv]

Does this not ruin American ideology of earning things?

lol doesn't slavery, racism and oppression of women's rights go against everything the American dream stands for? smh

1800
Whites ($100,000) - "aww yiss, slavery is so legit"
Blacks (-$50,000) - "aww noooss, i got kidnapped and have literally nothing"

1900
Whites ($1,000,000) - "aww yiss, i have accumulated wealth via inheritance from my white family's plantation and can take full advantage of the resources available to me cuz i'm literally worth more than blacks in the eyes of the law."
Blacks ($0) - "aw shucks, i have less rights than that white dude who put my family into slavery...fml"

1970
Whites ($10,000,00) - "ima die now and give all my money to my white kids."
Blacks ($1) - "yay, i finally can send my kids to the same decent school as white kids."

2014
SXCorando - "ayyyy i don't care wut happend...the only reference point that matters is my own...tl;dr forget history...doesn't matter, who cares."

 

[SXCoronado]

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[SXCoronado]

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[sgv]

Yeah, it does. When did I say any different? We should do away with racist/oppressive institutions so everyone has a fair chance.

okay so are you also against the U.S. government paying back reparations to japanese-american citizens for kidnapping and putting them into work camps? are you against DOW company for paying back reparations to the thousands of indians who died from chemical poisoning and gross negligence? why is it for this one particular instance of reparations for blacks, which is incredibly miniscule compared to the atrocities allowed to be done to them by the government, that you feel is not deserving of reparations

 

[SXCoronado]

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[sgv]

I'm not against any of that (sounds like the least our government should do).. I'm talking about academic admittance you knucklehead.

reparations don't have be money...knucklehead

how about this...emory school of dentistry discriminated against jews in the 60's, they only recently said "sowwiess"....or this, pratically all US universities discriminated against blacks in 1900s...can you come up with a way of making amends with the demographic, as a whole, that was discriminated against?

 

[SXCoronado]

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[sgv]

on a basic level, people are being given admittance for less than ideal scores. Correct? There are other ways to pay reparations. It's just a twisting of the idea - it's kind of racist to think they would do worse as well. It's like the self fulfilling prophecy - if you treat a group as if they're less intelligent, it will show on test scores.

You don't see the issue?

tell me, what is an ideal score? hmm? do you know the difference between a 25 and a 26 on the DAT is just a handful of questions? does 20 make you a better dentist than someone who got a 19? who says that admittance has to be based on academic performance? the average DAT in the 80's was 17, so does that make those dentists idiots?
why are they less capable? is public funding for education not skewed to favor the wealthy by determining school budgets based on the surrounding housing values? didn't the LA government housing planners slowly demolish and push low socioeconomic minority neighborhoods to the fringes of the city? what about in NYC? Why do all the kids who have to travel by bus for 30 minutes from the inner city to school every morning happen to be black? do you think it has anything to do with the fact that their fathers, mothers, grandfathers and grandmothers were forcefully put into low socioeconomic status? what you're essentially asking for is abandonment. since, it's incredibly difficult to reverse decades of abuse, the least the government can do is give some little preference to these people who are clearly disadvantaged.

 

[SXCoronado]

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[sgv]

edit lulz

 

[SXCoronado]

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[sgv]

An ideal score.. I guess around a 20 or above. At that point you've proven you got your stuff down.

it was a rhetorical question. and no, you're only saying 20 because that's what happens to be the average score of admitted applicants today. i bet if this were 1990's, when the average was 18, you'd say the ideal score were 18...these are not raw scores but are dependent on how everyone else performs on that given exam...it's completely arbitrary aside from telling where you stand among all applicants

 

[SXCoronado]

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[sgv]

perhaps 80 to 90% of correct answers then

no it's 75, or no no no, it's actually 69, no wait, it's actually 82.472348329427357984

 

[CraigHack]

What the duck happened here?


Posted using SDN Mobile

 

[FlossFloss]

Being URM is an asset when applying to dental school whether your life was actually affected by that or not. It's proven by countless posters on SDN of people asking for chances with the little "oh and I'm also URM" at the end. Stats or no stats, it's an absolutely bull concept. Let people in based on merit and hard work. I'm pretty sure AADSAS has a section for us to explain a disadvantaged situation we might have had. Leave it at that. Basing your "disadvantage" on skin color is the most laughable concept of reverse racism I have ever heard of. I knew white/asian friends who worked their tails off in our high school while barely scraping by with single parents. They didn't get into the ivies they desperately wished for. Instead a well off rich black girl (who to my knowledge was not bullied in any way; quite the contrary) got into the school those other kids wanted to go to. She had half their gpa, and SAT score in the 1700s. Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of black people who deserved to go anywhere because their work ethic proved it, but when I see stories like this, I lose hope in the system.

 

[herkulis]

Same reasoning and implementation for medschool admission http://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472112988-ch1.pdf

 

[kerfufle]

I'm what would be considered an "URM" and just reading through posts like this are what gave me motivation to do well in school. The last thing I would have wanted is to get into school and have people question whether I had extra help because of my skin color. I'm glad I'm a competitive applicant and don't have to deal with some of these garbage attitudes. To all of the people bashing AA, just go work in the inner city when you're done with dental school and there won't be a need for AA anymore.

 

[sgv]

I'm what would be considered an "URM" and just reading through posts like this are what gave me motivation to do well in school. The last thing I would have wanted is to get into school and have people question whether I had extra help because of my skin color. I'm glad I'm a competitive applicant and don't have to deal with some of these garbage attitudes. To all of the people bashing AA, just go work in the inner city when you're done with dental school and there won't be a need for AA anymore.

too late dude...some people already assume accomplished minority groups were only able to achieve their goals due to affirmative action...
like this bro http://www.businessinsider.com/how-clarence-thomas-grew-to-hate-affirmative-action-2013-10

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20071021/yale-justice-thomas/

 

[studentdental8]

too late dude...some people already assume accomplished minority groups were only able to achieve their goals due to affirmative action...
like this bro http://www.businessinsider.com/how-clarence-thomas-grew-to-hate-affirmative-action-2013-10

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20071021/yale-justice-thomas/

This was a really interesting read and brings a whole new perspective. Maybe some URM do want the system to be fair towards all so that if they get in they, and their classmates, and their future employers, all know it is based on true merit and never would raise an ounce of doubt otherwise.

 

[babowc]

No professional program should accept a student based on their race. It's called "professional" program for a reason. You work your tail off to get there, which should be based on merit, and not the history of "disadvantage".


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[JLT223]

No professional program should accept a student based on their race. It's called "professional" program for a reason. You work your tail off to get there, which should be based on merit, and not the history of "disadvantage".


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Too bad that's not how the real world works.

 

[schmoob]

Does professional sports have affirmative action? Or are players recruited, drafted, signed, etc based on their skills and abilities?
Football and basketball, (not too sure about baseball and too lazy to Google right now) are dominated by what would be URMs in dentistry. Would it be fair if better players are passed over because there are just too many people of their race/ethnicity in the league?
Anyway, I have no evidence or references here. These are just thoughts that popped into my head. So if people start trying to throw stats in my face to prove me wrong, they can go stick their heads in doodoo.

 

[mariojoa]

It is critical to think about having diverse pool of dentists from various background. Therefore, current affirmative action must also include the socioeconomic status to have as many students who have overcome those challenges as possible.