Affirmative Action

[Shockwave456]

Hi, everyone, just wondering if anyone knows of any MD medical schools that do not use (or only slightly use) affirmative action.

Thanks!

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[TheWeeIceMan]

Hi, everyone, just wondering if anyone knows of any MD medical schools that do not use (or only slightly use) affirmative action.

Thanks!

I thought I heard Michigan public schools no longer use affirmative action, but I could be wrong.

Also, I predict that this thread won't end well.

 

[zwitterion34]

All the California schools and Michigan.

 

[kpcrew]

there was a court ruling a few years ago that made the university of california system go totally race blind. that's one of the reasons why cali schools are relatively hard to get into, along with the large population and wonderful weather.

 

[flatearth22]

there was a court ruling a few years ago that made the university of california system go totally race blind. that's one of the reasons why cali schools are relatively hard to get into, along with the large population and wonderful weather.

Not to mention we have 13% Asians compared to just under 5% for the US as a whole.

 

[zwitterion34]

there was a court ruling a few years ago that made the university of california system go totally race blind. that's one of the reasons why cali schools are relatively hard to get into, along with the large population and wonderful weather.

Does being race blind mean that they have no consideration for disadvantaged status?

 

[HoltMD]

They all use Affirmative Action for good old white men.

 

[235788]

They all use Affirmative Action for good old white men.

i wish

 

[dreamweaver1988]

I think TX and FL schools also do not use AA, but don't quote me on that.

 

[Knocked Up]

ALL schools actively recruit minority applicants whether it is an official or unofficial school policy. Don't believe anything to the contrary.

 

[link2swim06]

ALL schools actively recruit minority applicants whether it is an official or unofficial school policy. Don't believe anything to the contrary.

Yep its the difference between it being a law/policy requiring it...or the school wanting diversity. Either way schools will get diversity.

 

[HoltMD]

ALL schools actively recruit minority applicants whether it is an official or unofficial school policy. Don't believe anything to the contrary.

Hence, medical schools are filled with Blacks, Natives, Mexicans and women. There's only a handful of white students, especially white males.

 

[Pisiform]

Good to know. I thought it's the law in the entire US, every state and university has to follow it.


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[tantacles]

Good to know. I thought it's the law in the entire US, every state and university has to follow it.


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Affirmative action generally isn't based on federal or state law. However, the supreme court has ruled numerous times on the constitutionality of affirmative action, summarized here:

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/affirmative1.html

The most recent decisions (grutter v. bollinger and gratz v. bollinger) were that affirmative action is constitutional but that beneficiaries may not be chosen based on a quota system.

 

[LizzyM]

Keep in mind that the accrediting body for medical schools will punish a school that lacks diversity in its student body and/or faculty. See http://www.wvpubcast.org/newsarticle.aspx?id=22212




"The LCME was also critical of the medical school for not making efforts to broaden diversity among applicants or shortage of faculty and students from demographically diverse backgrounds."

 

[BA11]

Punishing a school for a lack of diversity is counterproductive IMO. If 50% of your top applicants are Asian, African-American, Hispanic, etc. 50% of that entering class should be that group. Likewise, if there isnt a single member from a minority group in your top applicant pool you shouldnt accept them simply to fill quotas. It isnt conducive to producing the best doctors, it only serves to be inclusive for the sake of being politically correct.

Keep in mind this is coming from someone with a very mixed ethnic background over the past four generations. I just don't care about race at all and have always thought that of all the things we judge the merits and worth of individuals on it is the most illogical and irrelevant. You're white and upset that a lower percentage of good white candidates get in at many schools? Suck it up and do better in school and fill out your application with great ECs. You're black and think it isnt fair that you didnt have any oppotunities and had to work so much harder for everything and deserve bonus points for that? Sorry, life isnt fair. We each have to play with the hand life dealt us.

 

[V5RED]

One of my pet peeves is calling people diverse based on skin color alone.

 

[BA11]

One of my pet peeves is calling people diverse based on skin color alone.

You can replace "skin color" with "religion", "ethnicity", "language" and many other things and the point is still valid. We're all the sum of our parts and the parts are numerous. The difference is that nobody looks for diversity of language or religion in schools, not that they should.

 

[yellowfish]

You can replace "skin color" with "religion", "ethnicity", "language" and many other things and the point is still valid. We're all the sum of our parts and the parts are numerous. The difference is that nobody looks for diversity of language or religion in schools, not that they should.

Those kinds of diversity would be more valid than the ridiculous social construct of race that people brand as "diversity".

 

[tantacles]

The difference is that nobody looks for diversity of language or religion in schools, not that they should.

Why not? That seems perfectly valid given that not everyone in the United States speaks English. If your goal is to provide care to as many people as possible, eliminating language barriers is a good first step to take.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Punishing a school for a lack of diversity is counterproductive IMO. If 50% of your top applicants are Asian, African-American, Hispanic, etc. 50% of that entering class should be that group. Likewise, if there isnt a single member from a minority group in your top applicant pool you shouldnt accept them simply to fill quotas. It isnt conducive to producing the best doctors, it only serves to be inclusive for the sake of being politically correct.

Keep in mind this is coming from someone with a very mixed ethnic background over the past four generations. I just don't care about race at all and have always thought that of all the things we judge the merits and worth of individuals on it is the most illogical and irrelevant. You're white and upset that a lower percentage of good white candidates get in at many schools? Suck it up and do better in school and fill out your application with great ECs. You're black and think it isnt fair that you didnt have any oppotunities and had to work so much harder for everything and deserve bonus points for that? Sorry, life isnt fair. We each have to play with the hand life dealt us.

Not a realistic view sorry. Medical schools have made it their mission to have all races represented equally as doctors. This is due to the fact that many doctors will cater underprivileged communities of their own demographic. Also, some patients take comfort in their doctor being the same race as them. Besides, having disproportionately low percentages of a certain race bring negative press. Something medical schools wish to avoid.

 

[BA11]

Why not? That seems perfectly valid given that not everyone in the United States speaks English. If your goal is to provide care to as many people as possible, eliminating language barriers is a good first step to take.

Not at ther expense of innate intelligence, work ethic or accomplishments however. I agree though, speaking multiple languages should be a plus on any application, just not something to base quotas on.

 

[Megatron2016]

Also, I predict that this thread won't end well.

+1 hehehehehe.

 

[tantacles]

Not at ther expense of innate intelligence, work ethic or accomplishments however. I agree though, speaking multiple languages should be a plus on any application, just not something to base quotas on.

Currently, quotas aren't constitutional according to the supreme court. LizzyM had a great analogy that describes the philosophy pretty well: If you have a salad and you know tomatoes are scarce, you might dig through to find a few good ones before dressing it.

 

[BA11]

Medical schools have made it their mission to have all races represented equally as doctors. This is due to the fact that many doctors will cater underprivileged communities of their own demographic.

And many doctors of different ethnicities with also serve these areas. You seem to be acting on the notion that most doctors have serious inhibitions about working with minority groups. Some do I'm sure but that isnt the norm. This isnt 1965.

Also, some patients take comfort in their doctor being the same race as them. Besides, having disproportionately low percentages of a certain race bring negative press. Something medical schools wish to avoid.

Medical schools shouldnt be forced to cater to the illogical and biased wishes of a small minority of the American population. When people are sick, most worry about getting better more than their preconceived notions about groups of people. Plus, there will always be blacks, hispanics, etc. smart enough to get in on their own merit and thus there will always be minority physicians. If a patient is biased towards one, they can always go see them. It's not like eliminating quotas would eliminate minorities from medicine, that's just incredibly ignorant to suggest.

The press thing is just that, press. It's the belief of a society that is beaten over the head with PC crap every single day and exactly what I'm arguing against in the first place. You can't support the position that AA is good by citing the flawed line of thinking that caused it to come about in the first place. That's like quoting the bible to support the accuracy of the bible.

 

[BA11]

Currently, quotas aren't constitutional according to the supreme court. LizzyM had a great analogy that describes the philosophy pretty well: If you have a salad and you know tomatoes are scarce, you might dig through to find a few good ones before dressing it.

All I'm saying is don't take an above average black or hispanic or Asian applicant over a better white applicant because he's black. These racial categories are constructed by us for our own benefit anyway, at their root they don't really mean much.

 

[Jennet]

All I'm saying is don't take an above average black or hispanic or Asian applicant over a better white applicant because he's black. These racial categories are constructed by us for our own benefit anyway, at their root they don't really mean much.

Please explain how "racial categories" are for our benefit.

*leans back*

 

[link2swim06]

All I'm saying is don't take an above average black or hispanic or Asian applicant over a better white applicant because he's black. These racial categories are constructed by us for our own benefit anyway, at their root they don't really mean much.

I dont know what planet you are from but Asians are way over represented in medicine.

 

[plumazul]

All I'm saying is don't take an above average black or hispanic or Asian applicant over a better white applicant because he's black. These racial categories are constructed by us for our own benefit anyway, at their root they don't really mean much.

Good point, since we all know that unlike the "man made" concepts of race, the metrics we use to determine who is "objectively better", were handed down to humanity by God almighty.

 

[Donald Juan]

And many doctors of different ethnicities with also serve these areas. You seem to be acting on the notion that most doctors have serious inhibitions about working with minority groups. Some do I'm sure but that isnt the norm. This isnt 1965.

You seem to think its about working with one patient of a particular race, it's about serving communities.

If you want to get more doctors who serve rural Georgia, you should pick candidates from rural Georgia. It wouldn't make sense for a school to take applicants from Vancouver and just hope that they do their part and move to rural Georgia after they finish medical school.

So, to get doctors who will go serve inner-city, heavily black or hispanic areas, you probably shouldn't just take white and asian kids from the suburbs, because they're more than likely gonna go back to the suburbs when they get out of medical school.

 

[management]

I dont know what planet you are from but Asians are way over represented in medicine.

Strong point. Which begs the question, is AA responsible for that? If not, how effective is AA in medicine anyway?

 

[Donald Juan]

Strong point. Which begs the question, is AA responsible for that? If not, how effective is AA in medicine anyway?

No, it is harder for Asians to get into medical school than white people, not easier.

 

[BA11]

Good point, since we all know that unlike the "man made" concepts of race, the metrics we use to determine who is "objectively better", were handed down to humanity by God almighty.

Which is a better indicator of one's ability to become a quality physician, intelligence or skin color? Which is a more tangible metric for intelligence, GPA and test scores or skin color?

Of course our methods are man made, but they are tangible and measurable and most importantly comparative. If you want to argue that admins are inherently biased then that is a different debate altogether.

 

[plumazul]

If you want to argue that admins are inherently biased then that is a different debate altogether.

Isn't this at the core of your argument? I think they are doing fine. I think diversity is a laudable and necessary goal. You seem to disagree.

 

[BA11]

You seem to think its about working with one patient of a particular race, it's about serving communities.

I most certainly do not, I was simply responsding based on his assertion.

If you want to get more doctors who serve rural Georgia, you should pick candidates from rural Georgia. It wouldn't make sense for a school to take applicants from Vancouver and just hope that they do their part and move to rural Georgia after they finish medical school.

A pretty valid point, but traditionally "undesirable areas" also produce a lot of individuals who look to get away to something better once they find a path that allows them the option of getting out. A lot of those inner city kids know the life there and spend their lives wanting out. As a doctor, you often times have that option. Plenty of suburban doctors grew up in bad areas but excelled academically, which allowed them to do what they wanted to do in medicine.

IMO, medically underserved areas will continue being underserved precisely because they are often areas that provide either fewer opportunities, lower pay, don't allow for the chosen field of practice or a combination of these things. Putting more black kids in medical school will only serve to produce more black physicians, not more black physicians in inner-city Detroit. That's just human nature in my opinion.

I don't necessarily agree with you, but thanks for making a much better arguement than the "so and so is trying to keep so and so down so we need AA to make things fair" bit.

 

[BA11]

Isn't this at the core of your argument? I think they are doing fine. I think diversity is a laudable and necessary goal. You seem to disagree.

Being forced to admit a diverse student body does not make them unbiased, it means they are towing the line. It isnt reflective of anything other than our society's notion that we HAVE to be diverse in EVERY walk of life just for the sake of being diverse. I don't pretend to think all admission staffs are completely without bias, but I think that we would be fine without forced diversity. The quality of physicians from top to bottom wouldnt go down, that's for sure.

 

[BA11]

I dont know what planet you are from but Asians are way over represented in medicine.

Who said they werent? I was conveying a "racial" point that one's race shouldnt matter, not commenting on whichever groups are over and under represented.

If it makes you feel better, "A white person shouldnt be admitted over a more qualified XXX person".

 

[BA11]

Please explain how "racial categories" are for our benefit.

*leans back*

Because the average American is either too ignorant or doesnt care enough to learn the difference between a Mexican, a Honduran and a Cuban. Calling them hispanics is just easier and allows us to group people in a much easier and mentally pleasing fashion. The funny thing is that almost nobody thinks of anyone from Spain as "hispanic" because they arent brown enough...

Likwise, we throw everyone from east Asia under the category of "Asian" and everybody in the middle east is "Arab". Race is a meaningless construct created for the benefit of a ethnically ignorant society.

 

[plumazul]

Being forced to admit a diverse student body does not make them unbiased, it means they are towing the line. It isnt reflective of anything other than our society's notion that we HAVE to be diverse in EVERY walk of life just for the sake of being diverse. I don't pretend to think all admission staffs are completely without bias, but I think that we would be fine without forced diversity. The quality of physicians from top to bottom wouldnt go down, that's for sure.

Good point! Demanding diversity in areas of society that involve the trivial issues of health, life and death, will materially benefit no one.

 

[sliceofbread136]

And many doctors of different ethnicities with also serve these areas. You seem to be acting on the notion that most doctors have serious inhibitions about working with minority groups. Some do I'm sure but that isnt the norm. This isnt 1965.

You are wrong. Statistically, doctors from URMs are much more likely than non-URM doctors to work in under-privileged communities that are majorly composed as the same race that they are.

Medical schools shouldnt be forced to cater to the illogical and biased wishes of a small minority of the American population. When people are sick, most worry about getting better more than their preconceived notions about groups of people. Plus, there will always be blacks, hispanics, etc. smart enough to get in on their own merit and thus there will always be minority physicians. If a patient is biased towards one, they can always go see them. It's not like eliminating quotas would eliminate minorities from medicine, that's just incredibly ignorant to suggest.

It may not make sense to you, but many Americans disagree with you and so medical schools. You can rationalize your position all you want but you won't be changing anyone's mind, atleast not in this lifetime.

The press thing is just that, press. It's the belief of a society that is beaten over the head with PC crap every single day and exactly what I'm arguing against in the first place. You can't support the position that AA is good by citing the flawed line of thinking that caused it to come about in the first place. That's like quoting the bible to support the accuracy of the bible.

They are URM for a reason. Without AA, they will become even more under-represented. Not only will this bring bad press to medical schools, it would be an overall negative to medicine in America.

.

 

[BA11]

Good point! Demanding diversity in areas of society that involve the trivial issues of health, life and death, will materially benefit no one.

It is precisely because they aren't trivial that we should be striving for the best, not the most diverse. If the best ALSO brings about diversity, then so be it.

 

[plumazul]

It is precisely because they aren't trivial that we should be striving for the best, not the most diverse. If the best ALSO brings about diversity, then so be it.

Are you arguing with your own points??

 

[BA11]

sliceofbread, I don't doubt a higher percentage of URM serve those communities. I'm arguing against the idea that nobody from a rich suburb would ever consider serving them as well, especially if the need is there. And as I said earlier, they will likely always be underserved areas medically because they arent desirable areas that many physicians from all walks of life would rather shy away from in favor of better areas that offer more in one form or fashion.

Also, I'm not here to change anyone's mind on the issue and have no illusions of accomplishing anything of the sort. People have their opinions, and opinions are slow to change if ever on issues like this. In the end, all one can do is try and be the best doctor they can be and not worry about what flaws exist around them in the field.

It's fun to talk about, though

 

[sliceofbread136]

sliceofbread, I don't doubt a higher percentage of URM serve those communities. I'm arguing against the idea that nobody from a rich suburb would ever consider serving them as well, especially if the need is there. And as I said earlier, they will likely always be underserved areas medically because they arent desirable areas that many physicians from all walks of life would rather shy away from in favor of better areas that offer more in one form or fashion.

Also, I'm not here to change anyone's mind on the issue and have no illusions of accomplishing anything of the sort. People have their opinions, and opinions are slow to change if ever on issues like this. In the end, all one can do is try and be the best doctor they can be and not worry about what flaws exist around them in the field.

It's fun to talk about, though

They are underserved because non-URM doctors don't want to serve there. The URM has some motive to serve there. If we didn't have AA they would be even more underserved. Medical schools don't want underserved areas, so they take steps to avoid them, instead of simply ignoring the problem as you propose.

 

[BA11]

Are you arguing with your own points??

I'm only arguing with the idea that AA is some grand concept for producing a better society. I have no problem with diversity, just the idea that we have to create it artificially. I don't give a crap about what you look like or where you came from...unless you ever have been compared by multiple people to the guys from Jersey Shore, then you can GTFO. Everyone else is cool.

 

[sliceofbread136]

sliceofbread, I don't doubt a higher percentage of URM serve those communities. I'm arguing against the idea that nobody from a rich suburb would ever consider serving them as well, especially if the need is there. And as I said earlier, they will likely always be underserved areas medically because they arent desirable areas that many physicians from all walks of life would rather shy away from in favor of better areas that offer more in one form or fashion.

Also, I'm not here to change anyone's mind on the issue and have no illusions of accomplishing anything of the sort. People have their opinions, and opinions are slow to change if ever on issues like this. In the end, all one can do is try and be the best doctor they can be and not worry about what flaws exist around them in the field.

It's fun to talk about, though

They are underserved because non-URM doctors don't want to serve there. The URM has some motive to serve there. If we didn't have AA the areas would be even more underserved. Medical schools don't want underserved areas, so they take steps to avoid them, instead of simply ignoring the problem as you propose.

 

[plumazul]

I'm only arguing with the idea that AA is some grand concept for producing a better society. I have no problem with diversity, just the idea that we have to create it artificially. I don't give a crap about what you look like or where you came from...unless you ever have been compared by multiple people to the guys from Jersey Shore, then you can GTFO. Everyone else is cool.

Great point! Why should we interfere "artificially" with the natural, God given order of things.

 

[Owlie]

I don't believe in affirmative action. Putting people in college just because they aren't a major ethnic group sets them up for possible failure.

If we really want to help minority ethnic groups, fund better education and a more edifying environment to live and study in. Then they will be smart enough to get into college based on their educational intelligence, rather than skin color.

Not granting someone into college based on skin color is just like letting someone into college based on skin color. It's all discrimination. It's all racism.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I don't believe in affirmative action. Putting people in college just because they aren't a major ethnic group sets them up for possible failure.

If we really want to help minority ethnic groups, fund better education and a more edifying environment to live and study in. Then they will be smart enough to get into college based on their educational intelligence, rather than skin color.

Not granting someone into college based on skin color is just like letting someone into college based on skin color. It's all discrimination. It's all racism.

For medical school there are actual benefits towards AA. We can't just snap our fingers and magically get more funding. This is our current solution.

 

[plumazul]

They are underserved because non-URM doctors don't want to serve there. The URM has some motive to serve there. If we didn't have AA the areas would be even more underserved. Medical schools don't want underserved areas, so they take steps to avoid them, instead of simply ignoring the problem as you propose.

It's so much more than just proximity. It's the knowledge of the culture that can actually save lives and decrease morbidity. As an Hispanic, I understand the culture. The language, foods, biases, taboos!! This knowledge will enable me to understand my patient, to get a better history, to be a better doctor.