Affirmative Action

[BA11]

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Great point! Why should we interfere "artificially" with the natural, God given order of things.

If we become more diverse in medicine, so be it. If not, so be it. I'm worried about the quality of doctors, not what they look like or where they came from. Why does diversity always have to be the ultimate goal? Nobody is being denied anything they rightfully earn in my stance.

 

[sliceofbread136]

It's so much more than just proximity. It's the knowledge of the culture that can actually save lives and decrease morbidity. As an Hispanic, I understand the culture. The language, foods, biases, taboos!! This knowledge will enable me to understand my patient, to get a better history, to be a better doctor.

This is part of the message I was trying to get across... I guess I didn't do a good job.

 

[sliceofbread136]

If we become more diverse in medicine, so be it. If not, so be it. I'm worried about the quality of doctors, not what they look like or where they came from. Why does diversity always have to be the ultimate goal? Nobody is being denied anything they rightfully earn in my stance.

We've already told you why diversity is beneficial.

 

[BA11]

I don't believe in affirmative action. Putting people in college just because they aren't a major ethnic group sets them up for possible failure.

If we really want to help minority ethnic groups, fund better education and a more edifying environment to live and study in. Then they will be smart enough to get into college based on their educational intelligence, rather than skin color.

Not granting someone into college based on skin color is just like letting someone into college based on skin color. It's all discrimination. It's all racism.

FTW

Improve their education at the lower levels, and diversity will occur on its own. It's not like minorities have a lower average mental capacity, give them the tools and they will perform to similar levels as whites. Too many grow up in poor inner city schools and lack many learning essentials. This is the issue, ignoring it and helping them after the fact is a poor way to treat the problem.

 

[Owlie]

For medical school there are actual benefits towards AA. We can't just snap our fingers and magically get more funding. This is our current solution.

I'm not fully sure what you're getting at with what you said, so pardon me if I misinterpret it.

I'm sure they do get funding for implementing affirmative action. I would be surprised if they didn't. It seems very disconcerting that universities (who usually stand up for proper social-political issues) would go with a poorly-thought-out solution for under-representation of minorities because they get money out of it.

That's all people think about today! Money. 🙁

 

[Owlie]

FTW

Improve their education at the lower levels, and diversity will occur on its own. It's not like minorities have a lower average mental capacity, give them the tools and they will perform to similar levels as whites. Too many grow up in poor inner city schools and lack many learning essentials. This is the issue, ignoring it and helping them after the fact is a poor way to treat the problem.

Thank you. And obviously there are other factors that contribute to that lack of representation in higher education, but this certainly wouldn't be a bad start. It will improve their life irregardless of whether they use the new circumstances to gain higher education or not.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I'm not fully sure what you're getting at with what you said, so pardon me if I misinterpret it.

I'm sure they do get funding for implementing affirmative action. I would be surprised if they didn't. It seems very disconcerting that universities (who usually stand up for proper social-political issues) would go with a poorly-thought-out solution for under-representation of minorities because they get money out of it.

That's all people think about today! Money. 🙁

I meant funding to go URM communities which lack education. Sorry for not being clear. I agree with you that their lack of adequate education is a problem, but not one that is easily solved.

 

[BA11]

We've already told you why diversity is beneficial.

And I have pointed out why AA is a poor solution, it doesnt help produce better quality professionals and essentially ignores the bigger issue with under-represented minorities: The public grade school system in many areas and the "learning isnt cool" culture that it creates.

Start teaching young children that learning is important and then fund improvements for the educational system.

 

[BA11]

Thank you. And obviously there are other factors that contribute to that lack of representation in higher education, but this certainly wouldn't be a bad start. It will improve their life irregardless of whether they use the new circumstances to gain higher education or not.

The culture that surrounds poor urban areas is the biggest problem IMO. Kids have no desire to learn often times and use their time and energy getting into things that take them down a dark path in life.

 

[BA11]

I meant funding to go URM communities which lack education. Sorry for not being clear. I agree with you that their lack of adequate education is a problem, but not one that is easily solved.

It seems like we make little effort to improve their quality of education but spend billions trying to save them after the fact. Throwing money at the root cause WILL help, throwing it at a patchwork solution that ignores the real problem is just that, patchwork.

 

[Owlie]

The culture that surrounds poor urban areas is the biggest problem IMO. Kids have no desire to learn often times and use their time and energy getting into things that take them down a dark path in life.

And obviously this isn't fixed except by the culture itself. You can spoon-feed morals, etc. down their throats, but like my good friend always said, "you can't clean 'em before you catch 'em." Hence, they have to be the ones to decide that for themselves.

 

[Owlie]

It seems like we make little effort to improve their quality of education but spend billions trying to save them after the fact. Throwing money at the root cause WILL help, throwing it at a patchwork solution that ignores the real problem is just that, patchwork.

Kind of like hitting the fire with water at its base.

 

[sliceofbread136]

And I have pointed out why AA is a poor solution, it doesnt help produce better quality professionals and essentially ignores the bigger issue with under-represented minorities: The public grade school system in many areas and the "learning isnt cool" culture that it creates.

Start teaching young children that learning is important and then fund improvements for the educational system.

We aren't going to solve that underlying problem in our lifetime, or probably ever. There will always be the haves and have nots. The AA method gives the have nots a way to reach higher learning, and also produces more doctors that can cater our nations diversity. As to your comment on culture, many URMs don't take school as a priority because their parents are uneducated. If we help get the current generation more educated, then this will be less of a problem for the next generation. No one is saying AA is perfect, but its the best solution we have atm. That has more weight with medical schools than premeds crying because they don't think it's fair.

Edit: I thought like you until I heard LizzyM's perspective on it. She convinced me that AA provides a greater overall utility for american medicine than not having it would.

 

[plumazul]

We aren't going to solve that underlying problem in our lifetime, or probably ever. There will always be the haves and have nots. The AA method gives the have nots a way to reach higher learning, and also produces more doctors that can cater our nations diversity. As to your comment on culture, many URMs don't take school as a priority because their parents are uneducated. If we help get the current generation more educated, then this will be less of a problem for the next generation. No one is saying AA is perfect, but its the best solution we have atm. That has more weight with medical schools than premeds crying because they don't think it's fair.

Edit: I thought like you until I heard lizzym's perspective on it. She convinced me that AA provides a greater overall utility for american medicine than not having it would.

👍 Exactly, real solutions for real problems. I never cease to be amazed at the naivete exhibited in these types of discussions.

 

[Plue00]

👍 Exactly, real solutions for real problems. I never cease to be amazed at the naivete exhibited in these types of discussions.

How about Asian parents who come from another country and aren't educated... explain this please. How about uneducated white parents? Explain that too...

 

[management]

I'm only arguing with the idea that AA is some grand concept for producing a better society. I have no problem with diversity, just the idea that we have to create it artificially. I don't give a crap about what you look like or where you came from...unless you ever have been compared by multiple people to the guys from Jersey Shore, then you can GTFO. Everyone else is cool.

But, wouldn't you call the bringing of millions of black folks to the US the 'creation of artificial diversity'? AA is just continuing what was started lol.....

 

[BA11]

But, wouldn't you call the bringing of millions of black folks to the US the 'creation of artificial diversity'? AA is just continuing what was started lol.....

Yes, but I don't feel like we need to apologize for the actions of our ancestors centuries ago. 😎

 

[management]

Can anyone tell me how the quality of medicine has suffered because of AA? I want to know.

 

[BA11]

👍 Exactly, real solutions for real problems. I never cease to be amazed at the naivete exhibited in these types of discussions.

I'm not naive enough to belueve the problem can be "fixed", but it can be helped.

 

[BA11]

Can anyone tell me how the quality of medicine has suffered because of AA? I want to know.

In theory it could prevent a slightly better candidate from getting a spot to an inferior one based on their genetic makeup. Candidates with better academic histories will, on average, do better in medical school. Thus, AA can serve to place less qualified students in an enviroment that should be accepting only the best regardless of race.

This isnt the biggest issue with AA, but it's a concept we as a society like to ignore for the sake of diversity. No, the overall quality of physicians isnt going to take a nose-dive if that's what you're asking.

 

[management]

Yes, but I don't feel like we need to apologize for the actions of our ancestors centuries ago. 😎

No one wants an apology playa. I'm actually doing good regardless of AA. No one even said that.....wow.....and you kind of missed that point.

Diversity was man-made here with unfair rules. Now, AA is here in order to provide rules to not necessarily level out the playing field, but make certain things slightly more achievable for everyone.

It's about adjustment. There are just too many reasons behind needing the involvement of AA. I hope you're not thinking that 'because we have a half-African President, AA needs to be thrown out'...I really hope not bruh.

 

[management]

In theory it could prevent a slightly better candidate from getting a spot to an inferior one based on their genetic makeup. Candidates with better academic histories will, on average, do better in medical school. Thus, AA can serve to place less qualified students in an enviroment that should be accepting only the best regardless of race.

This isnt the biggest issue with AA, but it's a concept we as a society like to ignore for the sake of diversity. No, the overall quality of physicians isnt going to take a nose-dive if that's what you're asking.

Exactly. The quality of medicine has not suffered because of AA. In fact, I bet that with the strong involvement of URM's in underprivileged areas, it has actually improved. Slick eh 😎.

And look at a lot of medical schools, and how many URM's are in them. if there are only 20 URM's in a 180-seat class, is that a lot to be upset about?

But before you grab your MSAR book and begin quoting numbers, my stats might be slightly off lol.

 

[zwitterion34]

No one wants an apology playa. I'm actually doing good regardless of AA. No one even said that.....wow.....and you kind of missed that point.

Diversity was man-made here with unfair rules. Now, AA is here in order to provide rules to not necessarily level out the playing field, but make certain things slightly more achievable for everyone.

It's about adjustment. There are just too many reasons behind needing the involvement of AA. I hope you're not thinking that 'because we have a half-African President, AA needs to be thrown out'...I really hope not bruh.

Learn the difference between good and well? 😎

 

[management]

Learn the difference between good and well? 😎

So.....the only thing you pulled from that is me using 'good' instead of 'well'?

Kill yourself.....

 

[zwitterion34]

So.....the only thing you pulled from that is me using 'good' instead of 'well'?

Kill yourself.....

I think it is only fair for AA to place you over other better qualified applicant. 😎

 

[tantacles]

I think it is only fair for AA to place you over other better qualified applicant. 😎

Just one?

 

[BA11]

No one wants an apology playa. I'm actually doing good regardless of AA. No one even said that.....wow.....and you kind of missed that point.

Diversity was man-made here with unfair rules. Now, AA is here in order to provide rules to not necessarily level out the playing field, but make certain things slightly more achievable for everyone.

It's about adjustment. There are just too many reasons behind needing the involvement of AA. I hope you're not thinking that 'because we have a half-African President, AA needs to be thrown out'...I really hope not bruh.

My comment was more sarcastic than anything, I wasnt implying you said you wanted an apology 😉

And I am not without sympathy, the three generations that preceded my conception contain an African-American, a Native-American, two hispanics and a mix of most major European nations. I look relatively white but have some interesting conversations with people about my grandparents and their parents from time to time.

The president being half-black doesnt factor in at all to this discussion, his election didnt change anything for the average black American. It's sad some people think it did.

 

[BA11]

Exactly. The quality of medicine has not suffered because of AA. In fact, I bet that with the strong involvement of URM's in underprivileged areas, it has actually improved. Slick eh 😎.

And look at a lot of medical schools, and how many URM's are in them. if there are only 20 URM's in a 180-seat class, is that a lot to be upset about?

But before you grab your MSAR book and begin quoting numbers, my stats might be slightly off lol.

Diversity doesnt upset me, it's the solution to the lack thereof that bothers me. There are better ways to address the inequalities in society IMO.

 

[zwitterion34]

Just one?

Haha 😀
*applicants 😎

 

[tantacles]

Haha 😀
*applicants 😎

😉

 

[BA11]

Just one?

 

[kpcrew]

Strong point. Which begs the question, is AA responsible for that? If not, how effective is AA in medicine anyway?

you mean it brings up the question. it doesn't beg the question.

 

[zwitterion34]

This thread has digressed from its original question.. The answer to the OP's question is clearly only California and Michigan unless Proposition 209 does not apply to schools in California. 😎

 

[MT Headed]

Which is a better indicator of one's ability to become a quality physician, intelligence or skin color? Which is a more tangible metric for intelligence, GPA and test scores or skin color?

While the answer to the second question is definitely "who cares", I don't think you'll like the answer to your first question at all.

I sense an assumption that you think that the smarter candidate is automatically more qualified and will be a better doctor, but I don't think that is true. Intelligence matters to a certain minimum point, but there is also another point beyond which adding more smarts really doesn't improve the candidate. Other factors become more important in determining the ultimate success of the future doctors in their future settings.

 

[management]

you mean it brings up the question. it doesn't beg the question.

No, I meant 'begs the question'. Which begs the question, do you have anything else to contribute to the discussion?

Lol...

 

[zwitterion34]

you mean it brings up the question. It doesn't beg the question.

🙂

 

[HoltMD]

From what I gather thus far, AA is keeping the white man down. 🙄

 

[sibitrum]

My problem with AA is that, intentionally or not, it actually reinforces negative stereotypes about minorities. Overall, it serves to improve the image of whites and asians relative to groups that are ostensibly "helped" thru AA. First, you lower the incentive for enterprising young minorities to do as well as they can. People are rational. If you lower the requirements, they will often lower their effort. In addition, the success of minorities is, to some extent (justifiably or not), discounted by others because of the presence of AA. Taken together, these two effects result in a worse image for minorities and only hurt them in the long run.

 

[sliceofbread136]

AA is the only thing keeping asians from taking over medicine. White people complaining about AA is ironic because it is helping us.

 

[BA11]

I sense an assumption that you think that the smarter candidate is automatically more qualified and will be a better doctor, but I don't think that is true. Intelligence matters to a certain minimum point, but there is also another point beyond which adding more smarts really doesn't improve the candidate. Other factors become more important in determining the ultimate success of the future doctors in their future settings.

I agree, but it is pretty difficult to judge one's level of empathy, social awareness, attitude, kindness, etc. through an online application and a 30 minute interview where they are trying to play the role of a great applicant.

 

[kpcrew]

No, I meant 'begs the question'. Which begs the question, do you have anything else to contribute to the discussion?

Lol...

no you didn't. that's not what begging the question means: http://begthequestion.info/
stop getting it wrong, you're contributing to the whole intelligence as a negative thing.
and this thread pops up every month, it bores me but keep thinking that you're contributing to a delightful debate. the people who benefit support it and those who are hurt by it oppose it.

"Exactly. The quality of medicine has not suffered because of AA. In fact, I bet that with the strong involvement of URM's in underprivileged areas, it has actually improved. Slick eh .

And look at a lot of medical schools, and how many URM's are in them. if there are only 20 URM's in a 180-seat class, is that a lot to be upset about?

But before you grab your MSAR book and begin quoting numbers, my stats might be slightly off lol."

what kind of contribution is that? you're just pulling stuff out of your ass. ironically, you're actually begging the question here without even realizing it.

 

[BA11]

AA is the only thing keeping asians from taking over medicine. White people complaining about AA is ironic because it is helping us.

You act as if white people are the only ones against AA or that they would all be against your scenario. I personally would have no issues with Asians being even more prevalent in medicine than they are now because they are traditionally extremely gifted academically and have strong work ethics, both of which are huge factors in becoming a good doctor.

 

[sliceofbread136]

You act as if white people are the only ones against AA or that they would all be against your scenario. I personally would have no issues with Asians being even more prevalent in medicine than they are now because they are traditionally extremely gifted academically and have strong work ethics, both of which are huge factors in becoming a good doctor.

You may be ok with like 60% of doctors being asian, but your opinion is inconsequential. There would many, many negative repercussions. But it's ok, we live in a world where you have made everyone's education equal, AND made it so cultural differences weren't a major factor in medicine. You need to get out of ideal land and into the real world.

 

[kpcrew]

you may be ok with like 60% of doctors being asian, but your opinion is inconsequential. There would many, many negative repercussions.

das racist

 

[sliceofbread136]

das racist

How so?

 

[SpecterGT260]

You may be ok with like 60% of doctors being asian, but your opinion is inconsequential. There would many, many negative repercussions. But it's ok, we live in a world where you have made everyone's education equal, AND made it so cultural differences weren't a major factor in medicine. You need to get out of ideal land and into the real world.

You do realize that asians arent automatically smarter simply because they are asian right? your exposure to asians in academia are largely either asian americans however many generations removed from immigration or those that came over on their own. but the ones that came on their own likely had a skillset and talent that someone wanted here and with 2 BILLION of them left over in asia... statistically I doubt we are too different as peoples.

also, I am pretty sure the affirmative action thing about asians is a myth. I do not think quotas cap any particular demographic. The language reads in terms of "at least" IIRC.

 

[management]

no you didn't. that's not what begging the question means: http://begthequestion.info/
stop getting it wrong, you're contributing to the whole intelligence as a negative thing.
and this thread pops up every month, it bores me but keep thinking that you're contributing to a delightful debate. the people who benefit support it and those who are hurt by it oppose it.

"Exactly. The quality of medicine has not suffered because of AA. In fact, I bet that with the strong involvement of URM's in underprivileged areas, it has actually improved. Slick eh .

And look at a lot of medical schools, and how many URM's are in them. if there are only 20 URM's in a 180-seat class, is that a lot to be upset about?

But before you grab your MSAR book and begin quoting numbers, my stats might be slightly off lol."

what kind of contribution is that? you're just pulling stuff out of your ass. ironically, you're actually begging the question here without even realizing it.

Aww, did I upset you by using a 3-worded phrase in a way that wasn't to your liking?
Did that make you cry? Aww, I'm sorry.....man, get over it. I could talk about your run on's and misuse of a comma, but......dang, I guess I just did lol . Sadly, it did nothing to contribute to the convo eh.

In fact, instead of looking up a site about the use of 'begs the question', how about you instead look up some info on AA and get back at me.

Now, if you want to converse with me about my views on AA, then please do so.....but if all you want to do is bicker about such small things, then either PM me about it so the flow of the conversation won't be disturbed, or just please leave my SDN name out your mouth.

This is actually a good thread. This is possibly the best thread about AA in a while, so let's concentrate on the subject at hand, and not about small phrases, or good vs well....smh....

 

[sliceofbread136]

You do realize that asians arent automatically smarter simply because they are asian right? your exposure to asians in academia are largely either asian americans however many generations removed from immigration or those that came over on their own. but the ones that came on their own had reason to and with 2 BILLION of them left over in asia... statistically I doubt we are too different as peoples.

also, I am pretty sure the affirmative action thing about asians is a myth. I do not think quotas cap any particular demographic. The language reads in terms of "at least" IIRC.

I didn't say that asains are automatically smarter, they just have a hardworking culture which has led them into being waaaay overrepresented in medicine. I don't know if they actually cap the number of asians entering med school, but I know the standards are slightly raised for them, so many who would have gotten into med school if they were white ended up getting rejected. This checks the number of asians that get into medicine.

 

[management]

How so?

I want to know too. No offense but I wouldn't too much care for having 60% black doctors either.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I didn't say that asains are automatically smarter, they just have a hardworking culture which has led them into being waaaay overrepresented in medicine. I don't know if they actually cap the number of asians entering med school, but I know the standards are slightly raised for them, so many who would have gotten into med school if they were white ended up getting rejected. This checks the number of asians that get into medicine.

can you cite your sources? I feel like you are making a logical jump here. Are asians ACTUALLY over represented in medicine? How do you KNOW they are held to higher standards?

I am not trying to bust ur balls here. These are just very common rumors that get spread and I have yet to see real numbers to back them. A stat posted earlier said that 5% of the general population is asian, so "over represented" could just mean that 10% of med students are asian. And this would already take a significant chuck out of the remaining asians who are busy learning karate, building fighting robot suits, and generally being angsty (ive watched anime... I know whats up 👍). I think in my class of about 150 we only have 7-8 asian kids - and out of them I don't know of any that have particularly stunning resumes when compared to other demographics within the class. They are fairly white bread, if you excuse the expression.