AI scribe

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bronchospasm

Interventional Pain Physician
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Folks,

I'm looking at adding an AI scribe.
Presently have a transcriptionist and a live scribe.
Looking to make it more efficient as well as less dependent on humans since eventually every 1-2 years, issues prop up.

Vendors :
1. Sully
2. Heidi
3. Freed

Costs= $150 pm for their pro version with integration.

Would love to hear from others, pros and cons, etc.

Thanks.

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I use my MAs to scribe. I’m sure I use them for this task way more than $150/mos.

I am interested and anyone who thinks ai scribe is great
 
I use both Heidi and Freed right now, but I'm building a custom solution with some developers now. If it goes well, we'll commercialize it.

Freed writes more naturally flowing text, which I like. It's not as easy to customize, relying instead on you editing your notes within the web app and hitting the "learn format" button. It doesn't seem to learn that well. I've trained it over and over again to write "I reviewed a note by Dr. Kevin Smith dated 9/1/1992. He reported on his patient's constant refrain that he's not even supposed to be here today. His plan was to invite his friend Randall to a game of roller hockey on the roof." Instead, it just ignores that I discussed the other note at all. Freed also brings up ideas that I had for the patient, but words it as if they were the patient's ideas. "Dawn expresses interest in treating her back pain with an epidural steroid injection". No..... Dawn didn't express $hit. That was my idea. Finally, unless you tell it explicitly what the assessments are, it may give you several redundant entries. If you are explicit, "assessment number 1 is lumbar radiculopathy, my plan is...". It will tend not to go crazy listing assessments.

Heidi's writing is less flowing and more sterile. But it's a bit more customizable. You can create prompt templates that tell the natural language processor exactly what you want and don't want. The staff at Heidi are helpful with this if you ask. Intermediate versions of your note will generate whenever you turn the microphone on and off. Freed doesn't do this. You only see your note at the end. Heidi has a "context" window where you can cut and paste in prior notes, imaging, questionnaire data- whatever you want, and have that threaded into your note. I like that a lot, however the implementation needs tweaking. This is probably just a matter of editing the prompt with instructions on how to handle what you put in the context window. Heidi is kind of buggy and can crash.

The version I'm working on with my dev team will have some enhancements in terms of how outside data is integrated, plus added functionality in terms of billing and prior-auth optimization. It gets even more fun if we can get API access to some EHRs. My goal is a bulletproof note that would make both the ID version of Dr. Glaucomafleken, private equity guy, and Jonathan all smile.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I use both Heidi and Freed right now, but I'm building a custom solution with some developers now. If it goes well, we'll commercialize it.

Freed writes more naturally flowing text, which I like. It's not as easy to customize, relying instead on you editing your notes within the web app and hitting the "learn format" button. It doesn't seem to learn that well. I've trained it over and over again to write "I reviewed a note by Dr. Kevin Smith dated 9/1/1992. He reported on his patient's constant refrain that he's not even supposed to be here today. His plan was to invite his friend Randall to a game of roller hockey on the roof." Instead, it just ignores that I discussed the other note at all. Freed also brings up ideas that I had for the patient, but words it as if they were the patient's ideas. "Dawn expresses interest in treating her back pain with an epidural steroid injection". No..... Dawn didn't express $hit. That was my idea. Finally, unless you tell it explicitly what the assessments are, it may give you several redundant entries. If you are explicit, "assessment number 1 is lumbar radiculopathy, my plan is...". It will tend not to go crazy listing assessments.

Heidi's writing is less flowing and more sterile. But it's a bit more customizable. You can create prompt templates that tell the natural language processor exactly what you want and don't want. The staff at Heidi are helpful with this if you ask. Intermediate versions of your note will generate whenever you turn the microphone on and off. Freed doesn't do this. You only see your note at the end. Heidi has a "context" window where you can cut and paste in prior notes, imaging, questionnaire data- whatever you want, and have that threaded into your note. I like that a lot, however the implementation needs tweaking. This is probably just a matter of editing the prompt with instructions on how to handle what you put in the context window. Heidi is kind of buggy and can crash.

The version I'm working on with my dev team will have some enhancements in terms of how outside data is integrated, plus added functionality in terms of billing and prior-auth optimization. It gets even more fun if we can get API access to some EHRs. My goal is a bulletproof note that would make both the ID version of Dr. Glaucomafleken, private equity guy, and Jonathan all smile.

I agree with you on freed. it was actually funny how it creates more assessment and plan (kinda geared towards PCP i think)

i have a scribe and they serve 2 purposes - putting in EMR orders and scribing. without full integration of AI scribe (only dictating) it's hard to beat a human scribe. but i'll keep trying.

on the other note i use a AI summary program to put in pdf for WC/PI patients and it spits out a nice summary in chronological order. this has been more helpful.
 
E clinical has an AI that purports to be able to listen to the visit and transcribe everything into the pertinent part of the note. So when you say “knee with full range of motion” it puts it into the exam section. When you say “we will get a knee X-ray,” it will put an order for a knee X-ray. I believe the cost is similar, like $150. I myself have not used it but wonder if others have used and what are their experiences. I believe is called sunoh.ai
 
Use this and never look back.

 
Use this and never look back.

Can you tell us a bit about your experience with their product(s)? Are you using their scribe? Their patient intake tool?

Do you still use Aprima and does it integrate well?
 
Can you tell us a bit about your experience with their product(s)? Are you using their scribe? Their patient intake tool?

Do you still use Aprima and does it integrate well?

All of it. AI scribe and virtual assistant. Working with Aprima on an API interface, but they're being difficult with some of the integration requests because of pre-existing vendor relationships.
 
All of it. AI scribe and virtual assistant. Working with Aprima on an API interface, but they're being difficult with some of the integration requests because of pre-existing vendor relationships.

The splash page promises a lot. What exactly is their "AI Powered Patient Intake"? Does that involve a human VA? This is something I've been looking for (minus the human input) and was willing to build if it didn't already exist. I signed up for a trial to check them out this week and don't see anything about intake in their $50/month scribing product.

Since you have the VA package, what does that add?
 
Based on drusso’s recommendation I signed up for Insight Health and gave it a try (the basic scribe functionality is free). So far after 2 visits I’m pretty impressed. Here are the 2 chart notes it put out, with no edits.

Encounter Name: Encounter - 9/3
Date: Sep 3rd, 2024

| SUBJECTIVE

- Last caudal epidural injection received approximately 2.5 months ago, with effects lasting about 6 weeks before gradually wearing off.

- Seeking to schedule the next epidural injection for around September 24th, aligning with Medicare's requirement for a minimum of 3 months interval, given 50% or more relief and improved activity tolerance.

- Experiences no pain for the first 6 weeks post-injection, feeling 'totally normal', with pain resurfacing towards the end of the third month, indicating a total of 6 months of being pain-free annually through these interventions.

- Currently not considering back surgery but has been informed about the option and the potential benefits, including a discussion on severe stenosis at L3-4 and L4-5 levels on MRI, with a suggestion for laminectomy at these levels for potentially permanent symptom relief.

- On low-dose aspirin and Meloxicam for anti-inflammatory purposes.

- Last underwent physical therapy before the first caudal shot, continues to perform prescribed stretches, especially in conjunction with rowing exercises.



| OBJECTIVE

- MRI findings indicate severe stenosis at L3-4 and L4-5 levels, with some extent at L2-3.

- Medications include low-dose aspirin and Meloxicam, an anti-inflammatory medication.



| ASSESSMENT

- Chronic back pain with periodic relief following caudal epidural injections, indicating effective but temporary management of symptoms.

- Severe stenosis at L3-4 and L4-5 levels identified on MRI, suggesting potential for surgical intervention for long-term relief.

- Current management with caudal epidural injections aligns with patient's preference for non-surgical interventions at this time.



| PLAN

- Schedule next caudal epidural injection for on or after September 18th, maintaining a minimum 3-month interval between injections.

- Continue low-dose aspirin and Meloxicam as prescribed.

- Consider potential for surgical consultation in 2025, based on patient's ongoing assessment of pain management and quality of life.

- Complete paperwork for disabled driver's license as requested by the patient.

Encounter Name: Encounter - 9/3
Date: Sep 3rd, 2024

| SUBJECTIVE
- Reports improvement in low back pain but now experiencing mid back discomfort, particularly when standing for extended periods, leading to leg heaviness.
- Engages in daily stretching and walking, which provides some relief, especially from morning stiffness and discomfort during driving.
- Previous sacroiliac joint injection offered temporary relief for approximately one to two weeks.
- Medial branch nerve block discussed as a repeat procedure, with consideration for pre-procedural anxiolytics.
- Experiences pain when leaning back and twisting, but more so when leaning to the side.
- Describes sensation of bone 'itchiness' upon exiting a car, which improves with walking.
- Reports leg heaviness and has been informed of some degree of neuropathy.
- Awaiting MRI results for further evaluation of said neuropathy.
- History of severe pain episodes leading to emergency department visits, with one incident in June of the previous year and another approximately four months ago.
- Previous physical therapy sessions a couple of years ago, with interest in pursuing further physical therapy, specifically aqua therapy followed by dry land therapy.


| OBJECTIVE
- Physical examination findings suggest pain exacerbation with certain movements, particularly leaning to the side, indicative of joint involvement.
- MRI and other diagnostic imaging or results pending, aimed at evaluating neuropathy and underlying causes of back and leg pain.


| ASSESSMENT
- Mid back pain with history of low back pain improvement following sacroiliac joint injection.
- Leg heaviness and suspected neuropathy awaiting MRI confirmation.
- Previous severe pain episodes with emergency department visits, indicating episodic exacerbations of underlying chronic pain condition.


| PLAN
- Physical therapy referral, with a preference for aqua therapy transitioning to dry land therapy.
- Follow-up appointment in 2 to 3 months to evaluate effectiveness of physical therapy and consider epidural steroid injection if significant pain persists.
- Epidural steroid injection as a potential future intervention, pending reassessment of symptoms and response to physical therapy.
 
I signed up for Insight as well and tried it for two patients. I paid $50 for a month to get whatever bells and whistles go with that. I like the language better than Heidi, but so far I like the organization and integration with contexual notes better with Heidi. The Heidi interface, while not as slick looking as Insight, seems more functional. I'll keep experimenting.
 
I signed up for Insight as well and tried it for two patients. I paid $50 for a month to get whatever bells and whistles go with that. I like the language better than Heidi, but so far I like the organization and integration with contexual notes better with Heidi. The Heidi interface, while not as slick looking as Insight, seems more functional. I'll keep experimenting.

The most powerful thing about it is that it begins to learn from your prior interactions and discussion with patients.




| ASSESSMENT



- Spinal stenosis with neurogenic claudication, post epidural injections indicating effective but temporary management of symptoms.

- Severe, treatment-refractory cluneal neuralgia

- Multi-level spinal Modic changes in the setting of spinal Modic changes epidemic



| PLAN


- Patient appears to be an excellent candidate for minimally invasive spine surgeries with posterior stabilizing systems such as Minuteman.

-Treatment refractory cluneal neuralgia can be optimally managed with peripheral nerve stimulation systems.

-Consider Intracept and other BVNA treatments

-Long discussion regarding health economics and socio-political dynamics related to health care delivery, including site of service arbitrage, physician enterprise value associated with Vigorish on facility fees, and collectivism in medicine.

-Patient counseled about the consequences of elections.
 
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Here is a Heidi note today making full use of the context box for old notes and the new patient questionnaire. Try not to laugh at the case. Names changed to protect the innocent. This is raw, unedited.

Chief Complaint:
Widespread pain, peripheral neuropathy, dizziness, and balance issues

History of Present Illness:
Crazy Lady, a 48-year-old female, presents with a complex history of widespread pain, peripheral neuropathy, and balance issues. Symptoms began over 20 years ago but significantly worsened after contracting COVID-19. She reports numbness and tingling in bilateral legs, feet, and hands since 01/2023, with particular involvement of the left side of her body. Low back pain is a prominent complaint, along with pain in the groin area. She experiences difficulty with fine motor skills and weakness in grip strength. Left hip pain radiates down the left thigh. Patient uses a cane or walker due to difficulty walking. Symptoms worsen with prolonged walking or sitting (unable to sit or stand for more than 30 minutes). Dizziness is a persistent issue. Current pain score is 6/10, with highest reported at 10/10. Pain is described as waxing and waning, always present but fluctuating in severity. She reports functional impairments in self-care (getting up from bed/chair, preparing food) and activities of daily living (work, recreation, exercise). Oswestry Disability Index score is 32. Patient expresses desire to reduce medication use and find alternative treatments.

Past Medical History:
Fibromyalgia, small fiber neuropathy, meralgia paresthetica (left), anxiety, depression, PTSD, insomnia, hypertension, thyroid problems, TIAs, neurocardiogenic syncope

Notes Reviewed:
- George Smith, M.D. (06/15/2023): Performed ultrasound-guided left lateral femoral cutaneous nerve block for meralgia paresthetica. Pain reduced from 8 to 0 post-procedure.
- Robert C Joy, M.D. (07/12/2024): ER visit for dyspnea. Ruled out PE, ACS, and pneumonia.
- Jolene L Dawson, M.D. (06/24/2024): Neurology consult for peripheral polyneuropathy, RUE weakness, and postural dizziness.
- David Buckingham, M.D. (09/04/2023): Initial evaluation for lumbar stenosis.
- Emma Martell, FNP (07/30/2024): Primary care visit addressing multiple chronic conditions.
- Frank E Engel, M.D. (03/07/2024): Treated for recurrent acute suppurative otitis media and related conditions.

Objective:

Physical Examination Findings:
- Tenderness: Bilateral occiput, bilateral upper trapezius, bilateral medial scapular border
- Range of Motion: Lower lumbar flexion restricted, provoking back pain
- Neurological exam: Weakness in left quadriceps/hip flexor, decreased grip strength bilaterally. Diminished sensation in lower extremities in stocking glove pattern bilaterally, extending up left leg following L5 dermatome. Hypoesthesia in anterolateral aspect of left leg.
- Facet loading exam: Pain with rotation and extension of low back
- Sacroiliac loading exam: Not performed
- Joint exams: Left hip - pain with passive rotation and resisted hip flexion. Right hip - pain with passive rotation, provoking right ankle pain. Resisted hip flexion provokes groin pain bilaterally.
- Nerve tension testing: Positive straight leg raise on left
- CRPS exam: Not performed

Diagnostic Test Results:
- MRI Lumbar Spine (03/23/2023): Mild bilateral neural foraminal narrowing at L3-L4, mild to moderate right neural foraminal narrowing at L4-L5, moderate bilateral neural foraminal narrowing at L5-S1
- MRI Brain: No acute intracranial abnormality
- CTA Head: No large vessel occlusion
- XR Chest (07/12/2024): No acute cardiopulmonary process
- XR Left Hip (06/12/2023): Mild to moderate degenerative changes in both hips
- CT Abdomen/Pelvis (03/23/2023): 5 mm calcified nonobstructing stone in left kidney, mildly dilated loops of small bowel without obstruction
- EMG: Peripheral polyneuropathy
- 72-hour Ambulatory EEG: Results not provided

Summary of Conservative Care for Insurance:
Date Problem Started: Over 20 years ago
Conservative Care Period Start Date: 02/01/2024
Conservative Care Period Re-Evaluation Date: Not provided
Physical Therapy Start Date: February 2024
Physical Therapy End Date: Ongoing
Complementary Conservative Care Trials: Activity modification, trial of rest, acupuncture, chiropractic (over a year ago and ongoing), massage therapy
Medication Trials: Anti-convulsants, antidepressant pain medications
Total Weeks Conservative Care: 36 weeks (as of 09/04/2024)

Assessment & Plan:

1. Centralized hypersensitivity/Fibromyalgia:
- Assessment: Patient presents with widespread pain, multiple tender points, and diffuse hypoesthesia consistent with fibromyalgia and central sensitization
- Plan: Trial of low dose naltrexone (LDN) 4.5 mg daily for 7 days, increase to 9 mg daily if no improvement. Follow up in 2 weeks to assess response.

2. Vagus nerve dysfunction:
- Assessment: Patient reports symptoms possibly related to vagus nerve dysfunction, including dizziness and balance issues, which worsened after COVID-19 infection
- Plan: Discussed potential for vagus nerve hydrodissection in the future if initial treatments are unsuccessful

3. Anxiety and PTSD:
- Assessment: History of anxiety and PTSD, may be contributing to overall pain experience
- Plan: Consider stellate ganglion blockade in the future. Patient to complete PCL-5 score for further assessment.

4. Lumbar radiculopathy:
- Assessment: Positive straight leg raise on left, hypoesthesia following left L5 dermatome, consistent with MRI findings of moderate foraminal narrowing at L5-S1
- Plan: Monitor symptoms, consider epidural steroid injection if conservative measures fail

5. Meralgia paresthetica:
- Assessment: Left anterolateral thigh dysesthesias and hypoesthesia, previously treated with lateral femoral cutaneous nerve block by Dr. Smith with temporary relief
- Plan: Consider repeat ultrasound-guided lateral femoral cutaneous nerve block if symptoms persist

6. Lumbosacral spondylosis without myelopathy:
- Assessment: Low back pain with rotation and extension, consistent with facet syndrome
- Plan: Consider trial of lumbar medial branch blocks and possibly radiofrequency ablation if conservative measures fail

7. Left hip pain:
- Assessment: Pain with passive rotation of left hip joint, possible coxarthrosis
- Plan: Recommend hip X-ray if not recently performed

8. Iliopsoas tendinitis:
- Assessment: Bilateral groin pain with resisted hip flexion
- Plan: Monitor symptoms, consider ultrasound-guided iliopsoas bursa injection if symptoms persist

Time-Based Billing
Total Time: Greater than 60 minutes were spent on the patient encounter, which includes the following activities:
Reviewing Prior Records, Interpreting Test Results, Interviewing and Examining, Counseling on Medical Assessment and Treatment Options, Patient Education, Communication, Documentation
Face-to-Face Time: 45 minutes
Non-Face-to-Face Time: 15 minutes
More than 50% of the total time was spent in face-to-face interaction with the patient.

Complexity-Based Billing
Stable Chronic Illnesses: 6 (hypertension, depression, anxiety, PTSD, fibromyalgia, small fiber neuropathy)
Recent Exacerbations: Worsening of neuropathic symptoms and pain following COVID-19 infection
Acute Illness/Injury: None reported at this visit
Imaging/Tests Independently Viewed/Interpreted: MRI lumbar spine, XR left hip, XR chest, CT abdomen/pelvis
Medical Risk of Comorbidities:
Scheduled or Performed Procedures: Low dose naltrexone trial initiated
Medications: Buspirone 15 mg BID, duloxetine 120 mg daily, bupropion 150 mg XR daily, gabapentin 900 mg TID, CBD tincture, lisinopril (dose not specified)
 
Do these software integrate into your EMRs? If so, which ones? I use IMS, it’s a hassle.
 
Do these software integrate into your EMRs? If so, which ones? I use IMS, it’s a hassle.

Many claim they can integrate, but the real question is what exactly does that mean?

I think some may import your schedule, so it already knows who your patients are. Will they import prior records without you having to ask/copy/paste? Can they handle faxed documents? I want an integrated product that vacuums up everyting in sight, digests it, and sticks it in the note saying it was reviewed. And while we're at it, give me ironclad billing justification.
 
Many claim they can integrate, but the real question is what exactly does that mean?

I think some may import your schedule, so it already knows who your patients are. Will they import prior records without you having to ask/copy/paste? Can they handle faxed documents? I want an integrated product that vacuums up everyting in sight, digests it, and sticks it in the note saying it was reviewed. And while we're at it, give me ironclad billing justification.

Exactly. That product does not exist right now. I don’t see the utility of ai outside hoi and maybe documenting exam.
 
Here is a Heidi note today making full use of the context box for old notes and the new patient questionnaire. Try not to laugh at the case. Names changed to protect the innocent. This is raw, unedited.

Chief Complaint:
Widespread pain, peripheral neuropathy, dizziness, and balance issues

History of Present Illness:
Crazy Lady, a 48-year-old female, presents with a complex history of widespread pain, peripheral neuropathy, and balance issues. Symptoms began over 20 years ago but significantly worsened after contracting COVID-19. She reports numbness and tingling in bilateral legs, feet, and hands since 01/2023, with particular involvement of the left side of her body. Low back pain is a prominent complaint, along with pain in the groin area. She experiences difficulty with fine motor skills and weakness in grip strength. Left hip pain radiates down the left thigh. Patient uses a cane or walker due to difficulty walking. Symptoms worsen with prolonged walking or sitting (unable to sit or stand for more than 30 minutes). Dizziness is a persistent issue. Current pain score is 6/10, with highest reported at 10/10. Pain is described as waxing and waning, always present but fluctuating in severity. She reports functional impairments in self-care (getting up from bed/chair, preparing food) and activities of daily living (work, recreation, exercise). Oswestry Disability Index score is 32. Patient expresses desire to reduce medication use and find alternative treatments.

Past Medical History:
Fibromyalgia, small fiber neuropathy, meralgia paresthetica (left), anxiety, depression, PTSD, insomnia, hypertension, thyroid problems, TIAs, neurocardiogenic syncope

Notes Reviewed:
- George Smith, M.D. (06/15/2023): Performed ultrasound-guided left lateral femoral cutaneous nerve block for meralgia paresthetica. Pain reduced from 8 to 0 post-procedure.
- Robert C Joy, M.D. (07/12/2024): ER visit for dyspnea. Ruled out PE, ACS, and pneumonia.
- Jolene L Dawson, M.D. (06/24/2024): Neurology consult for peripheral polyneuropathy, RUE weakness, and postural dizziness.
- David Buckingham, M.D. (09/04/2023): Initial evaluation for lumbar stenosis.
- Emma Martell, FNP (07/30/2024): Primary care visit addressing multiple chronic conditions.
- Frank E Engel, M.D. (03/07/2024): Treated for recurrent acute suppurative otitis media and related conditions.

Objective:

Physical Examination Findings:
- Tenderness: Bilateral occiput, bilateral upper trapezius, bilateral medial scapular border
- Range of Motion: Lower lumbar flexion restricted, provoking back pain
- Neurological exam: Weakness in left quadriceps/hip flexor, decreased grip strength bilaterally. Diminished sensation in lower extremities in stocking glove pattern bilaterally, extending up left leg following L5 dermatome. Hypoesthesia in anterolateral aspect of left leg.
- Facet loading exam: Pain with rotation and extension of low back
- Sacroiliac loading exam: Not performed
- Joint exams: Left hip - pain with passive rotation and resisted hip flexion. Right hip - pain with passive rotation, provoking right ankle pain. Resisted hip flexion provokes groin pain bilaterally.
- Nerve tension testing: Positive straight leg raise on left
- CRPS exam: Not performed

Diagnostic Test Results:
- MRI Lumbar Spine (03/23/2023): Mild bilateral neural foraminal narrowing at L3-L4, mild to moderate right neural foraminal narrowing at L4-L5, moderate bilateral neural foraminal narrowing at L5-S1
- MRI Brain: No acute intracranial abnormality
- CTA Head: No large vessel occlusion
- XR Chest (07/12/2024): No acute cardiopulmonary process
- XR Left Hip (06/12/2023): Mild to moderate degenerative changes in both hips
- CT Abdomen/Pelvis (03/23/2023): 5 mm calcified nonobstructing stone in left kidney, mildly dilated loops of small bowel without obstruction
- EMG: Peripheral polyneuropathy
- 72-hour Ambulatory EEG: Results not provided

Summary of Conservative Care for Insurance:
Date Problem Started: Over 20 years ago
Conservative Care Period Start Date: 02/01/2024
Conservative Care Period Re-Evaluation Date: Not provided
Physical Therapy Start Date: February 2024
Physical Therapy End Date: Ongoing
Complementary Conservative Care Trials: Activity modification, trial of rest, acupuncture, chiropractic (over a year ago and ongoing), massage therapy
Medication Trials: Anti-convulsants, antidepressant pain medications
Total Weeks Conservative Care: 36 weeks (as of 09/04/2024)

Assessment & Plan:

1. Centralized hypersensitivity/Fibromyalgia:
- Assessment: Patient presents with widespread pain, multiple tender points, and diffuse hypoesthesia consistent with fibromyalgia and central sensitization
- Plan: Trial of low dose naltrexone (LDN) 4.5 mg daily for 7 days, increase to 9 mg daily if no improvement. Follow up in 2 weeks to assess response.

2. Vagus nerve dysfunction:
- Assessment: Patient reports symptoms possibly related to vagus nerve dysfunction, including dizziness and balance issues, which worsened after COVID-19 infection
- Plan: Discussed potential for vagus nerve hydrodissection in the future if initial treatments are unsuccessful

3. Anxiety and PTSD:
- Assessment: History of anxiety and PTSD, may be contributing to overall pain experience
- Plan: Consider stellate ganglion blockade in the future. Patient to complete PCL-5 score for further assessment.

4. Lumbar radiculopathy:
- Assessment: Positive straight leg raise on left, hypoesthesia following left L5 dermatome, consistent with MRI findings of moderate foraminal narrowing at L5-S1
- Plan: Monitor symptoms, consider epidural steroid injection if conservative measures fail

5. Meralgia paresthetica:
- Assessment: Left anterolateral thigh dysesthesias and hypoesthesia, previously treated with lateral femoral cutaneous nerve block by Dr. Smith with temporary relief
- Plan: Consider repeat ultrasound-guided lateral femoral cutaneous nerve block if symptoms persist

6. Lumbosacral spondylosis without myelopathy:
- Assessment: Low back pain with rotation and extension, consistent with facet syndrome
- Plan: Consider trial of lumbar medial branch blocks and possibly radiofrequency ablation if conservative measures fail

7. Left hip pain:
- Assessment: Pain with passive rotation of left hip joint, possible coxarthrosis
- Plan: Recommend hip X-ray if not recently performed

8. Iliopsoas tendinitis:
- Assessment: Bilateral groin pain with resisted hip flexion
- Plan: Monitor symptoms, consider ultrasound-guided iliopsoas bursa injection if symptoms persist

Time-Based Billing
Total Time: Greater than 60 minutes were spent on the patient encounter, which includes the following activities:
Reviewing Prior Records, Interpreting Test Results, Interviewing and Examining, Counseling on Medical Assessment and Treatment Options, Patient Education, Communication, Documentation
Face-to-Face Time: 45 minutes
Non-Face-to-Face Time: 15 minutes
More than 50% of the total time was spent in face-to-face interaction with the patient.

Complexity-Based Billing
Stable Chronic Illnesses: 6 (hypertension, depression, anxiety, PTSD, fibromyalgia, small fiber neuropathy)
Recent Exacerbations: Worsening of neuropathic symptoms and pain following COVID-19 infection
Acute Illness/Injury: None reported at this visit
Imaging/Tests Independently Viewed/Interpreted: MRI lumbar spine, XR left hip, XR chest, CT abdomen/pelvis
Medical Risk of Comorbidities:
Scheduled or Performed Procedures: Low dose naltrexone trial initiated
Medications: Buspirone 15 mg BID, duloxetine 120 mg daily, bupropion 150 mg XR daily, gabapentin 900 mg TID, CBD tincture, lisinopril (dose not specified)

How did you get it to know about previous notes reviewed?
 
The most powerful thing about it is that it begins to learn from your prior interactions and discussion with patients.




| ASSESSMENT



- Spinal stenosis with neurogenic claudication, post epidural injections indicating effective but temporary management of symptoms.

- Severe, treatment-refractory cluneal neuralgia

- Multi-level spinal Modic changes in the setting of spinal Modic changes epidemic



| PLAN


- Patient appears to be an excellent candidate for minimally invasive spine surgeries with posterior stabilizing systems such as Minuteman.

-Treatment refractory cluneal neuralgia can be optimally managed with peripheral nerve stimulation systems.

-Consider Intracept and other BVNA treatments

-Long discussion regarding health economics and socio-political dynamics related to health care delivery, including site of service arbitrage, physician enterprise value associated with Vigorish on facility fees, and collectivism in medicine.

-Patient counseled about the consequences of elections.


I tried this out. Out of the box, it does a pretty great job of capturing discussion, relevant findings and putting them into a SOAP note. Its ability to differentiate what is history, physical and assessment plan is questionable.

I easily copied this and pasted into my EMR's mobile app to put him into a note. I still use my template physical exams, but was able to note relevant findings to make adjustments in the note. I made a few adjustments to the history.

It absolutely burned through the battery in my iPhone 14.

It does a great job of using potentially relevant information but eliminating BS discussion. I had a LEO whose sergeant was my wife's BF in high school. It ignored that sidebar, but included his desk and field duties in the HPI.

I noted that I was more mindful and stayed on track better when I knew it was recording. I summarized what the patient was saying more frequently, which gave the perception of listening better, and I think I paid more attention to details.

Based on initial experience, I am strongly considering paying $50 a month to see if customization and learning makes this even more useful.
 
The most powerful thing about it is that it begins to learn from your prior interactions and discussion with patients.




| ASSESSMENT



- Spinal stenosis with neurogenic claudication, post epidural injections indicating effective but temporary management of symptoms.

- Severe, treatment-refractory cluneal neuralgia

- Multi-level spinal Modic changes in the setting of spinal Modic changes epidemic



| PLAN


- Patient appears to be an excellent candidate for minimally invasive spine surgeries with posterior stabilizing systems such as Minuteman.

-Treatment refractory cluneal neuralgia can be optimally managed with peripheral nerve stimulation systems.

-Consider Intracept and other BVNA treatments

-Long discussion regarding health economics and socio-political dynamics related to health care delivery, including site of service arbitrage, physician enterprise value associated with Vigorish on facility fees, and collectivism in medicine.

-Patient counseled about the consequences of elections.
It didn't say anything about them never loving you back, though
 
I tried this out. Out of the box, it does a pretty great job of capturing discussion, relevant findings and putting them into a SOAP note. Its ability to differentiate what is history, physical and assessment plan is questionable.

I easily copied this and pasted into my EMR's mobile app to put him into a note. I still use my template physical exams, but was able to note relevant findings to make adjustments in the note. I made a few adjustments to the history.

It absolutely burned through the battery in my iPhone 14.

It does a great job of using potentially relevant information but eliminating BS discussion. I had a LEO whose sergeant was my wife's BF in high school. It ignored that sidebar, but included his desk and field duties in the HPI.

I noted that I was more mindful and stayed on track better when I knew it was recording. I summarized what the patient was saying more frequently, which gave the perception of listening better, and I think I paid more attention to details.

Based on initial experience, I am strongly considering paying $50 a month to see if customization and learning makes this even more useful.
I used Insight for about six weeks earlier this summer, and ended up canceling my subscription, because I felt that its ability to learn and customize was limited, and I ended up having the same issues. Plus, it messed up my workflow to have to wait a few minutes for the note to be finished after I left the room before I could copy/paste stuff into Athena. I've yet to find a system that works as well as a well-trained live scribe.
 
The problem with AI and virtual scribing is our notes don't reflect reality. To get stuff approved, everyone has failed NSAID, PT, has +SLR, 3+ SIJ tests, etc. Unless AI knows when and how to lie or can incorporate approval criteria it's not suited for our field.
 
Anyone tried DAX by Nuance? I think our ortho group is leaning that way.
 
The problem with AI and virtual scribing is our notes don't reflect reality. To get stuff approved, everyone has failed NSAID, PT, has +SLR, 3+ SIJ tests, etc. Unless AI knows when and how to lie or can incorporate approval criteria it's not suited for our field.
True. What I really need is an AI that will look at the patient’s insurance and the requested procedure, and then go back through prior chart notes to document most recent and ongoing conservative care, meds previously tried, and supportive imaging and physical exam findings.
 
The problem with AI and virtual scribing is our notes don't reflect reality. To get stuff approved, everyone has failed NSAID, PT, has +SLR, 3+ SIJ tests, etc. Unless AI knows when and how to lie or can incorporate approval criteria it's not suited for our field.

You can coach it to hallucinate perfectly for you.
 
True. What I really need is an AI that will look at the patient’s insurance and the requested procedure, and then go back through prior chart notes to document most recent and ongoing conservative care, meds previously tried, and supportive imaging and physical exam findings.

This is what I'm looking at with my dev team- automated PA criteria completion, as well as working the note to max out billing criteria.

I do have an interim solution regarding so-called "conservative care"-

I created my own customized intake form process that makes the patient provide all of that conservative care data to the standard of our most stringent payor (BCBS). It also collects and calculates Oswestry and does the stupid MDC fall risk calculation while collecting some other MPS measures. It does the PHQ2, but so many patients have pre-existing depression it gets skipped. The conservative care section IS effort dependent on the part of the patient, but many patients really do fill it out completely. The data is collected using Google Forms, which then sends it to a Google Sheet. A script cleans up and structures the data, and then it gets sent to Chat GPT to create a narrative (probably unnecesary if you're feeding this to an AI scribe, but the narrative can usually be cut and pasted as the HPI). The PCP data is collected from the NPPES database based on the patient's input of their doc's name. The form is designed to streamline the intake process with Athena so me or whoever is doing the intake portion can just plug in all the info without asking the patient any questions.

I feed this whole form into my AI scribe, as it's sent to me in a text file via email, and a PDF copy goes to my assistant for the chart:

**Patient Demographics:**
- Name: Jane Doe
- Date of Birth: [snip]
- Address: [snip]
- Phone: [snip]
- Email: [snip]
- Insurance: Anthem, Policy Number: [snip]
- Does the Patient Require PCP Referral: NO
- Primary Care Physician(s): [snip]
- Primary Care Physician NPI: [snip]
- Primary Care Physician Location: [snip]
- Primary Care Physician Phone: [snip]
- Primary Care Physician Fax: [snip]
- Preferred Pharmacy: [snip]
- Recent MRI Imaging: [snip]

**Athena Intake Section:**
- Height & Weight: 5 ‘ 6” 134 lbs
- VAS: 8
- Allergies: No known drug allergies
- Previous Surgical Interventions: CATARACT SURGERY, HYSTERECTOMY
- Other Medical History: ACID REFLUX (GERD), ANXIETY DISORDER, HERNIA, OSTEOPOROSIS

**Medicare Quality Metrics:**
- Smoking Status: FORMER SMOKER
- Tobacco Use: NO
- Smokeless Tobacco Use: NEVER
- Cancer Screenings: [Include information]
- Depression Screening: [Include information from PHQ-2 or other screening tools]
- Fall Risk Screening Total Score/100: 11/100

**Pain Details:**
- **Body Region Affected**: Low Back + Buttock/Leg(s)
- **Personal Story**: Sciatica bulging disc per mri
- **Last Normal Date**: First of April 2024
- **Problem Duration**: 4-8 weeks
- **Onset Event**: Exercise machine to start. Hard massage or sciatia muscle and I couldn’t walk%
- **Highest Pain Score**: 8
- **Pain Timing**: Constant (always same severity)
- **Pain Quality**: Burning
- **Functional Impairments - Self Care**: Preparing Food
- **Functional Impairments - Activities of Daily Living**: Work, Recreation, Exercise
- **Oswestry Disability Index**: 31

**Red Flags:**
- Anesthesia Issues: No
- Current Infection: No
- Pregnancy Possible: No
- Blood Thinner Medications: None of These

**Conservative Care:**
- Options Tried: Trial of Rest, Oral Pain Medications, Physical Therapy, Physician or PT Directed Home Exercise Program
- Start Date: 6/17/2024
- Treatments: Trial of Rest, Activity Modification, Physical Therapy
- Reevaluation Date: 8/20/2024
- PT Exercise Dates: July 5 first session was walking fine- did at home stretches all week. Second visit pt massaged my sciatic nerve really hard. Next day so painful could not walk. Went to [snip] out pt ortho- had x rays and sent for an MRI. I have been in really bad pain since and still on a walker. Can put no pressure on my left leg.
- Medication Classes Tried: Tylenol/NSAIDs, Oral Steroids, Muscle Relaxants
- PT Details: July 5 and July 12
- Chiropractic Details: Na

**Pain History Narrative:**
**Patient Demographics:**

- Full Name: [snip]
- Gender: [snip]
- Date of Birth: [snip]
- Age: [snip]

**Medical History:**

- Recent Health Issue: Bulging disc in the lower back sciatic region.
- Symptom Onset: Sciatica was triggered during exercise and was exacerbated by a hard massage.
- Problem Duration: Symptoms have been persistent for 4-8 weeks since April 1, 2024.
- Pain Score: Patient reports a highest pain intensity of 8 on a scale of 0-10.
- Pain Characteristics: Pain is described as a constant burning sensation, focused on the low back and extending to the buttock/leg(s).

**Medicare Quality Indicators:**

- Functional Impairments in Self-Care: Patient reports difficulty in preparing food.
- Functional Impairments in Activities of Daily Living: Pain has interfered with her ability to Work, Recreation, and Exercise.
- Oswestry Disability Index: The patient's score is 31 indicating a moderate level of disability due to the sciatic pain.

**Narrative for Pain History:**

Mrs. [snip] is experiencing a constant and severe pain in her lower back region, which consistently extends to her buttock and legs, a condition indicative of Sciatica. She first started feeling the pain after using an exercise machine, but it was notably aggravated after receiving a hard massage on her sciatic muscle which resulted in her being incapable to walk. Since that second episode, which occurred in April 2024, she hasn't experienced any relief in her symptoms despite the passage of upwards to 8 weeks.

The pain, which Mrs. [snip] describes as burning, is persistent and has become progressively unbearable, scoring as high as 8 on the pain scale. As such, it has hindered her basic day-to-day activities, affecting her ability to prepare food or engage in recreational activities. Notably, her work and exercise routines have been significantly disrupted, illustrating the severity and detrimental impact of her condition on her overall lifestyle and physical capabilities.

(sciatic muscle... yeah, you do need to double-check AI)
 
This is what I'm looking at with my dev team- automated PA criteria completion, as well as working the note to max out billing criteria.

I do have an interim solution regarding so-called "conservative care"-

I created my own customized intake form process that makes the patient provide all of that conservative care data to the standard of our most stringent payor (BCBS). It also collects and calculates Oswestry and does the stupid MDC fall risk calculation while collecting some other MPS measures. It does the PHQ2, but so many patients have pre-existing depression it gets skipped. The conservative care section IS effort dependent on the part of the patient, but many patients really do fill it out completely. The data is collected using Google Forms, which then sends it to a Google Sheet. A script cleans up and structures the data, and then it gets sent to Chat GPT to create a narrative (probably unnecesary if you're feeding this to an AI scribe, but the narrative can usually be cut and pasted as the HPI). The PCP data is collected from the NPPES database based on the patient's input of their doc's name. The form is designed to streamline the intake process with Athena so me or whoever is doing the intake portion can just plug in all the info without asking the patient any questions.

I feed this whole form into my AI scribe, as it's sent to me in a text file via email, and a PDF copy goes to my assistant for the chart:

**Patient Demographics:**
- Name: Jane Doe
- Date of Birth: [snip]
- Address: [snip]
- Phone: [snip]
- Email: [snip]
- Insurance: Anthem, Policy Number: [snip]
- Does the Patient Require PCP Referral: NO
- Primary Care Physician(s): [snip]
- Primary Care Physician NPI: [snip]
- Primary Care Physician Location: [snip]
- Primary Care Physician Phone: [snip]
- Primary Care Physician Fax: [snip]
- Preferred Pharmacy: [snip]
- Recent MRI Imaging: [snip]

**Athena Intake Section:**
- Height & Weight: 5 ‘ 6” 134 lbs
- VAS: 8
- Allergies: No known drug allergies
- Previous Surgical Interventions: CATARACT SURGERY, HYSTERECTOMY
- Other Medical History: ACID REFLUX (GERD), ANXIETY DISORDER, HERNIA, OSTEOPOROSIS

**Medicare Quality Metrics:**
- Smoking Status: FORMER SMOKER
- Tobacco Use: NO
- Smokeless Tobacco Use: NEVER
- Cancer Screenings: [Include information]
- Depression Screening: [Include information from PHQ-2 or other screening tools]
- Fall Risk Screening Total Score/100: 11/100

**Pain Details:**
- **Body Region Affected**: Low Back + Buttock/Leg(s)
- **Personal Story**: Sciatica bulging disc per mri
- **Last Normal Date**: First of April 2024
- **Problem Duration**: 4-8 weeks
- **Onset Event**: Exercise machine to start. Hard massage or sciatia muscle and I couldn’t walk%
- **Highest Pain Score**: 8
- **Pain Timing**: Constant (always same severity)
- **Pain Quality**: Burning
- **Functional Impairments - Self Care**: Preparing Food
- **Functional Impairments - Activities of Daily Living**: Work, Recreation, Exercise
- **Oswestry Disability Index**: 31

**Red Flags:**
- Anesthesia Issues: No
- Current Infection: No
- Pregnancy Possible: No
- Blood Thinner Medications: None of These

**Conservative Care:**
- Options Tried: Trial of Rest, Oral Pain Medications, Physical Therapy, Physician or PT Directed Home Exercise Program
- Start Date: 6/17/2024
- Treatments: Trial of Rest, Activity Modification, Physical Therapy
- Reevaluation Date: 8/20/2024
- PT Exercise Dates: July 5 first session was walking fine- did at home stretches all week. Second visit pt massaged my sciatic nerve really hard. Next day so painful could not walk. Went to [snip] out pt ortho- had x rays and sent for an MRI. I have been in really bad pain since and still on a walker. Can put no pressure on my left leg.
- Medication Classes Tried: Tylenol/NSAIDs, Oral Steroids, Muscle Relaxants
- PT Details: July 5 and July 12
- Chiropractic Details: Na

**Pain History Narrative:**
**Patient Demographics:**

- Full Name: [snip]
- Gender: [snip]
- Date of Birth: [snip]
- Age: [snip]

**Medical History:**

- Recent Health Issue: Bulging disc in the lower back sciatic region.
- Symptom Onset: Sciatica was triggered during exercise and was exacerbated by a hard massage.
- Problem Duration: Symptoms have been persistent for 4-8 weeks since April 1, 2024.
- Pain Score: Patient reports a highest pain intensity of 8 on a scale of 0-10.
- Pain Characteristics: Pain is described as a constant burning sensation, focused on the low back and extending to the buttock/leg(s).

**Medicare Quality Indicators:**

- Functional Impairments in Self-Care: Patient reports difficulty in preparing food.
- Functional Impairments in Activities of Daily Living: Pain has interfered with her ability to Work, Recreation, and Exercise.
- Oswestry Disability Index: The patient's score is 31 indicating a moderate level of disability due to the sciatic pain.

**Narrative for Pain History:**

Mrs. [snip] is experiencing a constant and severe pain in her lower back region, which consistently extends to her buttock and legs, a condition indicative of Sciatica. She first started feeling the pain after using an exercise machine, but it was notably aggravated after receiving a hard massage on her sciatic muscle which resulted in her being incapable to walk. Since that second episode, which occurred in April 2024, she hasn't experienced any relief in her symptoms despite the passage of upwards to 8 weeks.

The pain, which Mrs. [snip] describes as burning, is persistent and has become progressively unbearable, scoring as high as 8 on the pain scale. As such, it has hindered her basic day-to-day activities, affecting her ability to prepare food or engage in recreational activities. Notably, her work and exercise routines have been significantly disrupted, illustrating the severity and detrimental impact of her condition on her overall lifestyle and physical capabilities.

(sciatic muscle... yeah, you do need to double-check AI)
If you want another physician helping let me know. I’m not a developer but I do know how to work with them.
 
If you want another physician helping let me know. I’m not a developer but I do know how to work with them.

Will let you know. Right now we're working on a product for my own personal use while surveying the market to see where we might have be able to compete. There are A LOT of products out there now that claim to do what I want to do- and the field is exploding with participants. The challenge to me seems to be the integration of dispersed data locked up behind institutional MFA walls. For example, a lot of my patients go to the MaineHealth system and they have tons of data. Prying it out of them via API would probably require waterboarding someone. They don't even allow copy/paste over Citrix. I found a way around that by using virtual PDF printer (they allow printing- but not save to PDF!).
 
This sounds really interesting. If you're ever in need of a beta tester let me know. I also work with Athena so I'd love to see a solution like this hit the market
 
Will let you know. Right now we're working on a product for my own personal use while surveying the market to see where we might have be able to compete. There are A LOT of products out there now that claim to do what I want to do- and the field is exploding with participants. The challenge to me seems to be the integration of dispersed data locked up behind institutional MFA walls. For example, a lot of my patients go to the MaineHealth system and they have tons of data. Prying it out of them via API would probably require waterboarding someone. They don't even allow copy/paste over Citrix. I found a way around that by using virtual PDF printer (they allow printing- but not save to PDF!).
Ha, read you post and was thinking that sounds like Maine Health IT! I used to print to PDF but they blocked me from printing at all but other docs like you say they still can. We're arranging a meeting several hospital IT departments over this issue via MMA. PM me if interested.

Back to AI, I've been testing Heidi and like the dictation and heard a lot of good things about it as an ambient scribe at a regional DPC meeting this weekend. Will compare it to Sully for EMR integration, etc. as well. It seems like I have some catching up to do.
 
Ha, read you post and was thinking that sounds like Maine Health IT! I used to print to PDF but they blocked me from printing at all but other docs like you say they still can. We're arranging a meeting several hospital IT departments over this issue via MMA. PM me if interested.

Back to AI, I've been testing Heidi and like the dictation and heard a lot of good things about it as an ambient scribe at a regional DPC meeting this weekend. Will compare it to Sully for EMR integration, etc. as well. It seems like I have some catching up to do.

I have not tried Sully. I like Heidi for it's just-right combo of flexibility and simplicity. You don't have to navigate away from the main screen to access context, note, and transcription. You can also directly edit templates/prompts. I'm not crazy about whatever AI processor it is that they use. I'd like to use a more sophisticated one for the actual note creation. I've set up my own little "test environment" in Google Sheets where you paste into one box the intake form, the context data (old notes, referral, imaging, etc) into another, and then the Heidi transcript. Once you okay it, the transcript is sent to ChatGPT 4o to be summarized. Then the combined date is all submitted together to ChatGPT 4o to write the note. You can't do all at once or it uses too many "tokens" for one request. You can specify which ChatGPT processor handles the data. Currently, 4o produces a better note than Heidi (using Heidi's data). They have an even more sophisticated processor on preview right now but I can't get it to work via API. It's useful for programming though.
 
The most powerful thing about it is that it begins to learn from your prior interactions and discussion with patients.




| ASSESSMENT



- Spinal stenosis with neurogenic claudication, post epidural injections indicating effective but temporary management of symptoms.

- Severe, treatment-refractory cluneal neuralgia

- Multi-level spinal Modic changes in the setting of spinal Modic changes epidemic



| PLAN


- Patient appears to be an excellent candidate for minimally invasive spine surgeries with posterior stabilizing systems such as Minuteman.

-Treatment refractory cluneal neuralgia can be optimally managed with peripheral nerve stimulation systems.

-Consider Intracept and other BVNA treatments

-Long discussion regarding health economics and socio-political dynamics related to health care delivery, including site of service arbitrage, physician enterprise value associated with Vigorish on facility fees, and collectivism in medicine.

-Patient counseled about the consequences of elections.
Can you talk more about how you programmed the AI to capture adequate detail? I know you can give it specific instructions, but I'm struggling with getting it to be detailed enough to medicare's liking.

How do you get it to remember which patient it is scribing for without linking to the EMR (my EMR is not yet integrated with Insight).

How do you get it to appropriately transcribe Pain specific language? For example, I was discussing an L3, L4, L5 medial branch block with a patient and it spit out "patient underwent lumbar radiofrequency ablation at Healthreef Health targeting L5 medial branch nerve".
 
Hoping to bump this thread. Wondering what people's experiences have been and whether anyone has good AI templates/instructions to share that can help generate better notes?
 
I have not tried Sully. I like Heidi for it's just-right combo of flexibility and simplicity. You don't have to navigate away from the main screen to access context, note, and transcription. You can also directly edit templates/prompts. I'm not crazy about whatever AI processor it is that they use. I'd like to use a more sophisticated one for the actual note creation. I've set up my own little "test environment" in Google Sheets where you paste into one box the intake form, the context data (old notes, referral, imaging, etc) into another, and then the Heidi transcript. Once you okay it, the transcript is sent to ChatGPT 4o to be summarized. Then the combined date is all submitted together to ChatGPT 4o to write the note. You can't do all at once or it uses too many "tokens" for one request. You can specify which ChatGPT processor handles the data. Currently, 4o produces a better note than Heidi (using Heidi's data). They have an even more sophisticated processor on preview right now but I can't get it to work via API. It's useful for programming though.
Still frustrated here with clunky language and formating with Heidi despite support videos and attempts to write or tweak templates and prompts.

Have read elsewhere about using LoRA training on a local LLM to use the ten years of my own notes in my EMR to match my writing style with the output from Heidi or another large LLM scribe. Supposedly that's less work on the hardware. Don't want to get into Windows or Linux projects for that and not sure if the new M4 Mac Minis are up for it. If it's likely, may up the specs on one since we're buying a few for the office before the end of the year anyway but that's still a $1500 extra for a project that may just turn into a time sucking hobby.
 
I've been using Freed and am happy with it, I still have to make edits and enter my own exam portion but it does a decent job. It does record everything said and will put sometimes random things it hears into the note, here's an example: "The patient reiterates that the pain wraps around into his chest, predominantly on the left side, which is greater than the right. He mentions that this pain continues and that he has been through the insurance appeal process before, understanding "how they're going to play the game." ". LOL.
 
Still frustrated here with clunky language and formating with Heidi despite support videos and attempts to write or tweak templates and prompts.

Have read elsewhere about using LoRA training on a local LLM to use the ten years of my own notes in my EMR to match my writing style with the output from Heidi or another large LLM scribe. Supposedly that's less work on the hardware. Don't want to get into Windows or Linux projects for that and not sure if the new M4 Mac Minis are up for it. If it's likely, may up the specs on one since we're buying a few for the office before the end of the year anyway but that's still a $1500 extra for a project that may just turn into a time sucking hobby.
Do you use the context window to add background data for notes?

What do you think of this note? It's a good example of what I get with Heidi. I make extensive use of context.

Chief Complaint:
Left-sided neck pain, headaches, and upper extremity symptoms including numbness and tingling.

History of Present Illness:
[Anonymous Patient] presents with chronic left-sided neck pain that she rates as consistently at level 5/10, with episodes of severe exacerbation reaching 10/10 causing tears. The neck pain radiates down her left arm with associated numbness and tingling in her fingers. She reports the numbness and tingling has been present for so long that she cannot quantify its severity. She experiences headaches primarily on the left side with numbness and tingling extending into her scalp and jaw. She describes a sensation similar to the tingling felt after removing a ponytail, particularly in her scalp. She also experiences right-sided trapezius area pain, though without arm radiation. When moving her head, she reports an unusual sensation that she likens to the sound of shaking an Etch A Sketch. She has a history of multiple cervical spine surgeries including left C7-T1 posterior microdiskectomy on 11/03/2009, right C7-T1 posterior foraminotomy on 11/13/2015, and left C6 and C7 posterior foraminotomies on 10/23/2020. She describes episodes where the neck pain feels "like someone just bashed you in the back of the head with a board."

Past Medical History:
Acid reflux (GERD), anxiety disorder, arthritis, depression, headaches, high cholesterol, kidney disease, cervical radiculopathy, bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, allergic rhinitis, hypothyroidism

Notes Reviewed:
Primary Doctor, MD - 11/12/2024: Referral note detailing chronic neck pain, headaches, and dizziness. Patient undergoing Spravato therapy with recommendations for physical therapy for neck and shoulder strengthening.

Multiple surgical notes reviewed documenting cervical procedures:
11/03/2009: Left C7-T1 posterior microdiskectomy for left C8 radiculopathy
11/13/2015: Right C7-T1 posterior foraminotomy for right C8 radiculopathy
10/23/2020: Left C6 and C7 posterior foraminotomies for left-sided cervical radiculopathy

Objective:

Physical Examination Findings:
Tenderness:
Mild tenderness left occiput
Mild tenderness T2 inner space on left
No tenderness in cervical or thoracic traps
No tenderness in mid back erectors, low lumbar erectors
GTBs nontender

Range of Motion:
Cervical extension produces pain and "crunchy" sensation
Rotation to right and left both provoke neck pain
Rotation to left severely limited due to pain
Cervical flexion provokes posterior neck pain and left shoulder area pain

Neurological exam:
Biceps reflexes normal bilaterally
Brachioradialis reflexes diminished bilaterally
Triceps reflexes diminished bilaterally
Normal strength upper extremity bilaterally
Diminished sensation to light touch left upper extremity C5, 6 dermatomes
Fasciculations noted in left and right pinky fingers

Diagnostic Test Results:
MRI (06/22/2020): Severe left foraminal stenosis at C4-5 and bilateral foraminal stenosis at C5-6

EMG (06/29/2020): Left C8 radiculopathy of undetermined age, no acute C5 or C6 radiculopathy

Assessment & Plan:

1. Occipital Neuralgia:
Assessment: Patient presents with chronic neck pain and headaches with occipital tenderness suggesting occipital nerve involvement
Plan: Proceed with ultrasound guided occipital nerve blocks today for diagnostic and therapeutic purposes. Initial response to anesthetic was very positive. She could now rotate her head to the right much farther than before and pain had improved. Advised patient we assess progress at 14 days. We scheduled follow up at that time.

2. Chronic Axial Neck Pain:
Assessment: Multiple pain generators likely including facet joint arthritis based on pain with all directions of movement
Plan: Consider diagnostic medial branch blocks with potential for radiofrequency ablation depending on response to occipital nerve blocks

3. Cervical Radiculopathy:
Assessment: History of degenerative disc disease with prior foraminotomies and current C6 radiculopathy symptoms
Plan: Consider repeat epidural steroid injection with higher volume (6-8 mL), as previous injection in 2020 did not lead to improvement in left arm pain.
 
Do you use the context window to add background data for notes?

What do you think of this note? It's a good example of what I get with Heidi. I make extensive use of context.

Chief Complaint:
Left-sided neck pain, headaches, and upper extremity symptoms including numbness and tingling.

History of Present Illness:
[Anonymous Patient] presents with chronic left-sided neck pain that she rates as consistently at level 5/10, with episodes of severe exacerbation reaching 10/10 causing tears. The neck pain radiates down her left arm with associated numbness and tingling in her fingers. She reports the numbness and tingling has been present for so long that she cannot quantify its severity. She experiences headaches primarily on the left side with numbness and tingling extending into her scalp and jaw. She describes a sensation similar to the tingling felt after removing a ponytail, particularly in her scalp. She also experiences right-sided trapezius area pain, though without arm radiation. When moving her head, she reports an unusual sensation that she likens to the sound of shaking an Etch A Sketch. She has a history of multiple cervical spine surgeries including left C7-T1 posterior microdiskectomy on 11/03/2009, right C7-T1 posterior foraminotomy on 11/13/2015, and left C6 and C7 posterior foraminotomies on 10/23/2020. She describes episodes where the neck pain feels "like someone just bashed you in the back of the head with a board."

Past Medical History:
Acid reflux (GERD), anxiety disorder, arthritis, depression, headaches, high cholesterol, kidney disease, cervical radiculopathy, bipolar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, allergic rhinitis, hypothyroidism

Notes Reviewed:
Primary Doctor, MD - 11/12/2024: Referral note detailing chronic neck pain, headaches, and dizziness. Patient undergoing Spravato therapy with recommendations for physical therapy for neck and shoulder strengthening.

Multiple surgical notes reviewed documenting cervical procedures:
11/03/2009: Left C7-T1 posterior microdiskectomy for left C8 radiculopathy
11/13/2015: Right C7-T1 posterior foraminotomy for right C8 radiculopathy
10/23/2020: Left C6 and C7 posterior foraminotomies for left-sided cervical radiculopathy

Objective:

Physical Examination Findings:
Tenderness:
Mild tenderness left occiput
Mild tenderness T2 inner space on left
No tenderness in cervical or thoracic traps
No tenderness in mid back erectors, low lumbar erectors
GTBs nontender

Range of Motion:
Cervical extension produces pain and "crunchy" sensation
Rotation to right and left both provoke neck pain
Rotation to left severely limited due to pain
Cervical flexion provokes posterior neck pain and left shoulder area pain

Neurological exam:
Biceps reflexes normal bilaterally
Brachioradialis reflexes diminished bilaterally
Triceps reflexes diminished bilaterally
Normal strength upper extremity bilaterally
Diminished sensation to light touch left upper extremity C5, 6 dermatomes
Fasciculations noted in left and right pinky fingers

Diagnostic Test Results:
MRI (06/22/2020): Severe left foraminal stenosis at C4-5 and bilateral foraminal stenosis at C5-6

EMG (06/29/2020): Left C8 radiculopathy of undetermined age, no acute C5 or C6 radiculopathy

Assessment & Plan:

1. Occipital Neuralgia:
Assessment: Patient presents with chronic neck pain and headaches with occipital tenderness suggesting occipital nerve involvement
Plan: Proceed with ultrasound guided occipital nerve blocks today for diagnostic and therapeutic purposes. Initial response to anesthetic was very positive. She could now rotate her head to the right much farther than before and pain had improved. Advised patient we assess progress at 14 days. We scheduled follow up at that time.

2. Chronic Axial Neck Pain:
Assessment: Multiple pain generators likely including facet joint arthritis based on pain with all directions of movement
Plan: Consider diagnostic medial branch blocks with potential for radiofrequency ablation depending on response to occipital nerve blocks

3. Cervical Radiculopathy:
Assessment: History of degenerative disc disease with prior foraminotomies and current C6 radiculopathy symptoms
Plan: Consider repeat epidural steroid injection with higher volume (6-8 mL), as previous injection in 2020 did not lead to improvement in left arm pain.
How r u going to get a cervical mbb approved when cervical radic exists?
 
Do you use the context window to add background data for notes?

What do you think of this note? It's a good example of what I get with Heidi. I make extensive use of context.
I've tried adding previous notes or pasting the relevant ER note in the context window but Heidi got confused and starting posting ER note HPI , exam and assessment & plan into my new note's HPI, exam and A&P which was difficult to sort out and edit. I've watched the videos and will spend some more time tweaking the templates.

Besides these issues, the notes read very clunky. They are adequate (after extensive editing) but it's clear they came from an LLM, not me typing or dictating. I'm still happy with the time saved but the notes are mediocre.
 
I've tried adding previous notes or pasting the relevant ER note in the context window but Heidi got confused and starting posting ER note HPI , exam and assessment & plan into my new note's HPI, exam and A&P which was difficult to sort out and edit. I've watched the videos and will spend some more time tweaking the templates.

Besides these issues, the notes read very clunky. They are adequate (after extensive editing) but it's clear they came from an LLM, not me typing or dictating. I'm still happy with the time saved but the notes are mediocre.

Physical exams in the context section are definitely a weakness in the system. I see that too, so I eliminate exams from context notes. This has to be done manually. I have a document processor that can eliminate exams from context notes before I add them. I'll PM you my Heidi template to try out. Let's see if it cuts out the clunkiness you're experiencing.
 
Use this and never look back.


The problem is they have a ridiculous new 21 day note retention policy and will delete any note older than 21 days. In ontario we have 90 days to submit bills and if im busy I might forget to copy over a note or two. This new policy makes me really not want to see insight anymore. Its really unfortunate because I liked it better than Heidi. I really pleaded with them not to do this but they did not listen claiming they have to because of HIPPA which is a load of garbage. If you don't care about this policy then insight is good.

I am trying scribeberry now but its $100/mo which is too much imo but so far it is impressive.
 
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Its frustrating because so far out of scribe berry and heidi, insight has the best note quality by far.
 
I just tried FREED and the note quality is similar to insight, pretty good. Generation time is a bit longer though. It does make a summary note you can send /print for patient about the visit which some of you might like.
 
I’ve been using ChartNote and it’s been good for my purposes so far. I just need the HPI and it’s useful to dictate imagining findings and lab findings to paste in my note. $99 a month. The medical dictionary it uses is pretty good, it will pull medical terms from the abbreviations I use.
 
Ill look into chartnote thanks. My use case is more soap notes in generalist clinic. For this FREED is pretty good. I like how clean the interface is and how after you finish recording a note it gets out of your way and pulls up the prompt for the next note very fast. Very conducive to seeing multiple patients back to back.
 
Ok further testing. Freed is pulling ahead overall above insight in terms of speed and fluidity. Going from patient to patient the interface is A LOT faster than insight. I just wish the detailed note option in freed allowed for point form format. The low detail option does point form but then you miss nuances.

Going to continue the trial of Freed for now.
 
Ok further testing. Freed is pulling ahead overall above insight in terms of speed and fluidity. Going from patient to patient the interface is A LOT faster than insight. I just wish the detailed note option in freed allowed for point form format. The low detail option does point form but then you miss nuances.

Going to continue the trial of Freed for now.
Seems like you can't instruct the AI or tell it exactly what to pick up on in the conversation with Freed. With Insight, I am able to specifically tell the AI what to pay attention to. I can also extensively prechart, pasting in MRI results, EMGs, prior notes, etc. There doesn't seem to be a precharting feature with Freed.
 
Seems like you can't instruct the AI or tell it exactly what to pick up on in the conversation with Freed. With Insight, I am able to specifically tell the AI what to pay attention to. I can also extensively prechart, pasting in MRI results, EMGs, prior notes, etc. There doesn't seem to be a precharting feature with Freed.
How do you instruct it what to pick up? Can you give an example? I’ve tried during the course of the conversation to say something about making sure the documentation reflects [overly specific medical necessity criteria the patient has met] and it never puts down the specifics.
 
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