All Things ACGME/AOA Merger

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AlteredScale said:
There is no encompassing requirement to take the USMLE when applying for ACGME. Around 70% of ACGME programs already consider the comlex in light of the USMLE. Now that doesn't state preference as many PDs may still prefer DO applicants who take the USMLE but there is not study to back that claim.

If you go to a DO program, the comlex will be required no matter what. I am only aware of one 1 school (RVU) requires their students to take both Step 1 and Level 1.

The AOA and the group that will represent the AOA within the ACGME are trying very hard to provide all program directors with the tools to help quantify and learn the scores of the comlex.


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Thanks for the response, I didn't know that about the ACGME programs but it's good to know. Looks like I'll still end up taking the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX as I don't want to limit my options in any way possible. I've also heard from other students that some score better on one versus the other, so there's another reason for taking both. Annoying that the licensing exams won't be stream-lined but I won't have to worry about that for 2 years so I won't think about that for now.
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mandym00 said:
Thanks for the response, I didn't know that about the ACGME programs but it's good to know. Looks like I'll still end up taking the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX as I don't want to limit my options in any way possible. I've also heard from other students that some score better on one versus the other, so there's another reason for taking both. Annoying that the licensing exams won't be stream-lined but I won't have to worry about that for 2 years so I won't think about that for now.
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Glad to help. AOA is trying their best to get to a point where DO students don't have to take USMLE to free up their choices. But that's a pipe dream at this point.


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A couple questions about residency programs that acquire ACGME accreditation:

Scenario: Lets say an AOA General Surgery residency gains ACGME accreditation this year. In the upcoming match of 2018, this GS Residency can take students from both AOA and ACGME matches? So, if there are potentially five residency spots in this program, they could possibly fill all these spots in the AOA match and have no spots available for the ACGME match that occurs right after? Or possibly fill 3/5 spots in the AOA match and fill the last two in the ACGME match?
 
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Eagles6389 said:
Scenario: Lets say an AOA General Surgery residency gains ACGME accreditation this year. In the upcoming match of 2018, this GS Residency can take students from both AOA and ACGME matches? So, if there are potentially five residency spots in this program, they could possibly fill all these spots in the AOA match and have no spots available for the ACGME match that occurs right after? Or possibly fill 3/5 spots in the AOA match and fill the last two in the ACGME match?
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Yes this can happen. If you look on "AOA residencies" webpage you can see which programs are participating in both AOA and ACGME or just one or the other.
 
AlteredScale said:
Yes this can happen. If you look on "AOA residencies" webpage you can see which programs are participating in both AOA and ACGME or just one or the other.
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Are you referring to the AOA Opportunities page or something else? When I look at the opportunities page I can only see that programs with Initial Accred are eligible to participate in the AOA match but it doesn't say which match they're actually going to use. Is that info available somewhere or would you have to call each individual program and ask?
 
prexies said:
Are you referring to the AOA Opportunities page or something else? When I look at the opportunities page I can only see that programs with Initial Accred are eligible to participate in the AOA match but it doesn't say which match they're actually going to use. Is that info available somewhere or would you have to call each individual program and ask?
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If you search AOA Residency Opportunities for say orthopedic surgery it will list which programs art still participating in the AOA match. If the ACGME status is at "pre-accreditation" then they will not be participating in the ACGME match. If it says "initial accreditation" or "continuing" they will be participating in the ACGME match.
 
AlteredScale said:
If you search AOA Residency Opportunities for say orthopedic surgery it will list which programs art still participating in the AOA match. If the ACGME status is at "pre-accreditation" then they will not be participating in the ACGME match. If it says "initial accreditation" or "continuing" they will be participating in the ACGME match.
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To clarify, simply by having initial accreditation, it doesn't mean they will absolutely participate in the ACGME match nor does it mean they will not participate in the AOA match. It simply means that they are able to.

Unfortunately it's very program dependant. Some programs will go all into the ACGME match and others all into the AOA match, or any varying degree of participation in both. The only way to know for sure is to contact the program or check out their website if they are good at updating it.
 
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hallowmann said:
To clarify, simply by having initial accreditation, it doesn't mean they will absolutely participate in the ACGME match nor does it mean they will not participate in the AOA match. It simply means that they are able to.

Unfortunately it's very program dependant. Some programs will go all into the ACGME match and others all into the AOA match, or any varying degree of participation in both. The only way to know for sure is to contact the program or check out their website if they are good at updating it.
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I would assume the programs with acgme initial accreditation not participating in the AOA match will be apart of the acgme match no?


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AlteredScale said:
I would assume the programs with acgme initial accreditation not participating in the AOA match will be apart of the acgme match no?


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If they explicitly say they aren't participating in the AOA match, then most likely that's the case. Again though, there are some programs that simply don't participate in the NRMP match, but that is a rare occurrence.
 
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Does anyone have an up to date list of all of the programs that are participating in the 2017-2018 AOA match? ERAS has a list of about 36 but it keeps shrinking because they are slowly adding programs that are in AOA into the ACGME side so it is a waste of money (since ERAS makes you pay twice for the same bloody program).
 
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SevenSummitz said:
Does anyone have an up to date list of all of the programs that are participating in the 2017-2018 AOA match? ERAS has a list of about 36 but it keeps shrinking because they are slowly adding programs that are in AOA into the ACGME side so it is a waste of money (since ERAS makes you pay twice for the same bloody program).
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If you go to "AOA Resident Opportunities" they have a column for residencies participating in the AOA match there


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Previously, Section X allows AOA program to recruit for new residents through participation in the AOA-NMS match, as long as the program is "pre-accredited" (with application turned in). In theory, a program can turn in the application and recruit until 2020. However, now the new changes will require programs to be approved by ACGME or else this year (application year 2018) will be the last year the program will participate.

Essentially, this is the last year a DO program can recruit without being an ACGME program. By definition, once you are an ACGME program, you are no longer a DO program.

In essence, this is the last year a DO program take new resident.

Exception can be made as long as the DO program turns in progress notes to AOA and specialty college and convince the power that be that it is on track to be accredited in the near future.

These changes to section X further speed up the merger and shorten the life of a DO program. More accurately, this is the LAST year for DO programs.
 
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Solodyn said:
Previously, Section X allows AOA program to recruit for new residents through participation in the AOA-NMS match, as long as the program is "pre-accredited" (with application turned in). In theory, a program can turn in the application and recruit until 2020. However, now the new changes will require programs to be approved by ACGME or else this year (application year 2018) will be the last year the program will participate.

Essentially, this is the last year a DO program can recruit without being an ACGME program. By definition, once you are an ACGME program, you are no longer a DO program.

In essence, this is the last year a DO program take new resident.

Exception can be made as long as the DO program turns in progress notes to AOA and specialty college and convince the power that be that it is on track to be accredited in the near future.

These changes to section X further speed up the merger and shorten the life of a DO program. More accurately, this is the LAST year for DO programs.
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Wow--I guess my reading comprehension is off. I recall it was a pretty recent AOA update from back in march or so that allowed for "pre-accredited" programs to continue taking residents through 2020. Why this bait and switch? Is this the AOA's doing?

Honestly, might as well pull the band-aid off faster. C/O 2019 probably didn't expect this though.


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TheaterOfTheme said:
Honestly, might as well pull the band-aid off faster. C/O 2019 probably didn't expect this though.
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As a C/O 2019, this is news to me! I wonder if this means no more AOA match before the ACGME match?
 
As long as the AOA match exists, it will still be ahead of the ACGME match. And it will almost certainly exist until its dying breath. Remember, the AOA programs that get accreditted as 4 year programs can still match in the AOA match. So there will still be some programs available to match in the AOA match in 2019.

That being said, I can't wait for one single unified match.
 
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Thumpar said:
While I'm at it, are all former-AOA residencies going to be Osteopathic Recognition by default? Or is that something that individual residencies have to apply for?

If that is the case, it sounds like the "osteopathic perspective" is going to vanish from post-doctoral education except for a handful of programs.
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they have to apply with a separate application. depends on the commitment of the program to the osteopathic program. for em it also means the program can have all 4 years fully funded by cms for each resident enrolled. em in general give 3.5 years of funding (direct) for 4 year programs
 
I’m pretty sure only one EM program applied for osteopathic accredidation so far. Maybe more did in the last batch, but of the first 20-30 programs that switched over, only Doctor’s Hospital had applied for osteopathic recognition to my knowledge.
 
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AlteredScale said:
I have updated the stick with the most recent data provided by both the AOA and ACGME. Thanks to @gamerEMdoc for providing valuable updates on AOA EM programs making the transition.
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Anyone can sum it up for us - what's the update and consensus in general? Thank you
 
Random question, and I don’t mean to sound ignorant but do you think around 2025 the merger will be adjusted along with residency opportunities to help DOs match in competitive specialities? For example if the 2020 and following merger matches severely disadvantage DOs, will the GME be revised again? I know this is purely based on speculation, I’m just curious.
 
Adrenaline Junky said:
Random question, and I don’t mean to sound ignorant but do you think around 2025 the merger will be adjusted along with residency opportunities to help DOs match in competitive specialities? For example if the 2020 and following merger matches severely disadvantage DOs, will the GME be revised again? I know this is purely based on speculation, I’m just curious.
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LOL, I don't think so. It's a merger to get things more simple, not make it more complex. I also don't think DOs will be in great disadvantage. Why should they? Majority of DOs take usmle anyway, they take same letters on rotations and if DO has same step 1 score and same excellent letters - I can hardly imagine residency program that will give priority to an MD applicant only because he is MD. Yes, there may be some small percentage of such residencies first several years until everything will calm down eventually. It's going to be same pool and eventually it's going to be usmle step 1 score and letters that determine if you are up to par or not. Don't over-think it - there's no need for great conspiracy anti-DO theory. Bias is there, but it's not going to be a deal breaker. Just my opinion.
 
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Adrenaline Junky said:
Random question, and I don’t mean to sound ignorant but do you think around 2025 the merger will be adjusted along with residency opportunities to help DOs match in competitive specialities? For example if the 2020 and following merger matches severely disadvantage DOs, will the GME be revised again? I know this is purely based on speculation, I’m just curious.
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Why would the merger be adjusted? There's nothing to adjust in 2025. By 2020, its over. The AOA doesn't accredit programs after that point, only the ACGME does. There would be no reason for the ACGME to make special exceptions to give DO students help in matching into competitive specialties, the AOA will have lost all its power by then. If the AOA wanted to bargain for something like this, which the ACGME would never agree too anyways, then the time to do so was 5 years ago when they were negotiating the merger.
 
073116 said:
LOL, I don't think so. It's a merger to get things more simple, not make it more complex. I also don't think DOs will be in great disadvantage. Why should they? Majority of DOs take usmle anyway, they take same letters on rotations and if DO has same step 1 score and same excellent letters - I can hardly imagine residency program that will give priority to an MD applicant only because he is MD. Yes, there may be some small percentage of such residencies first several years until everything will calm down eventually. It's going to be same pool and eventually it's going to be usmle step 1 score and letters that determine if you are up to par or not. Don't over-think it - there's no need for great conspiracy anti-DO theory. Bias is there, but it's not going to be a deal breaker. Just my opinion.
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I agree. I do think if the AOA wanted to make DO graduates have an easier time matching, they'd standardize their boards and have their students take USMLE 1/2 and just have one separate short COMLEX exam for osteopathy. That way their graduates only have to take one board exam instead of trying to prepare for two. The AOA won't do this, because they want to cling to any last bit of power they have, but honestly, this would be in the best interest of their students.
 
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gamerEMdoc said:
I agree. I do think if the AOA wanted to make DO graduates have an easier time matching, they'd standardize their boards and have their students take USMLE 1/2 and just have one separate short COMLEX exam for osteopathy. That way their graduates only have to take one board exam instead of trying to prepare for two. The AOA won't do this, because they want to cling to any last bit of power they have, but honestly, this would be in the best interest of their students.
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You think they’ll standardize it into one test in the future? Or just keep trying to cling to that last bit of power and get some money off the COMPLEX
 
073116 said:
LOL, I don't think so. It's a merger to get things more simple, not make it more complex. I also don't think DOs will be in great disadvantage. Why should they? Majority of DOs take usmle anyway, they take same letters on rotations and if DO has same step 1 score and same excellent letters - I can hardly imagine residency program that will give priority to an MD applicant only because he is MD. Yes, there may be some small percentage of such residencies first several years until everything will calm down eventually. It's going to be same pool and eventually it's going to be usmle step 1 score and letters that determine if you are up to par or not. Don't over-think it - there's no need for great conspiracy anti-DO theory. Bias is there, but it's not going to be a deal breaker. Just my opinion.
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You’re completely right, I apologize for my ignorance, just worried since I am applying to accelerated BS/MD and BS/DO programs this upcoming cycle
 
073116 said:
LOL, I don't think so. It's a merger to get things more simple, not make it more complex. I also don't think DOs will be in great disadvantage. Why should they? Majority of DOs take usmle anyway, they take same letters on rotations and if DO has same step 1 score and same excellent letters - I can hardly imagine residency program that will give priority to an MD applicant only because he is MD. Yes, there may be some small percentage of such residencies first several years until everything will calm down eventually. It's going to be same pool and eventually it's going to be usmle step 1 score and letters that determine if you are up to par or not. Don't over-think it - there's no need for great conspiracy anti-DO theory. Bias is there, but it's not going to be a deal breaker. Just my opinion.
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only HALF of DO students take Step 1.

The rotations are not the same.

Access to research is not the same.

Home programs do not exist for a majority of specialties for DO schools.

I do agree that only a small minority of PDs will care about MD initials but for a vast majority of them it will be Step Scores, Letters from Home Program Directors, Research and CV in general. There is nothing stopping DO students from getting those CVs built up, but there is nothing helping DO students either. The older more established DO programs are probably going to be fine considering they have been doing this for a while and their entering classes are academically ready to do well. The newer DO schools however are going to have a difficult time. The Match rate for osteopathic students was 80~something percent. Compared to 94~ percent for MDs.

Furthermore you seem to forget that your leadership likes it this way. They want primary care doctors not specialists. So they are unlikely to enforce higher standards to ensure student success into competitive specialties.
 
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libertyyne said:
only HALF of DO students take Step 1.

The rotations are not the same.

Access to research is not the same.

Home programs do not exist for a majority of specialties for DO schools.

I do agree that only a small minority of PDs will care about MD initials but for a vast majority of them it will be Step Scores, Letters from Home Program Directors, Research and CV in general. There is nothing stopping DO students from getting those CVs built up, but there is nothing helping DO students either. The older more established DO programs are probably going to be fine considering they have been doing this for a while and their entering classes are academically ready to do well. The newer DO schools however are going to have a difficult time. The Match rate for osteopathic students was 80~something percent. Compared to 94~ percent for MDs.

Furthermore you seem to forget that your leadership likes it this way. They want primary care doctors not specialists. So they are unlikely to enforce higher standards to ensure student success into competitive specialties.
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Would you consider NSUCOM solid, I have heard mixed reviews
 
Adrenaline Junky said:
Would you consider NSUCOM solid, I have heard mixed reviews
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This isn't the thread for this, but all DO schools give you the DO initials, which is the main problem and carries a stigmata of poor rotation quality, among many other things, regardless of your actual individual experience.
 
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Rekt said:
This isn't the thread for this, but all DO schools give you the DO initials, which is the main problem and carries a stigmata of poor rotation quality, among many other things, regardless of your actual individual experience.
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Thank you.
 
libertyyne said:
There is nothing stopping DO students from getting those CVs built up, but there is nothing helping DO students either.
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And this right here is huge and is the biggest difference between the two degrees in general. Do some DO students put together great apps? yes. Are the resources readily accessible for DO students? Definitely not. The effort threshold needed to overcome this and put together an app worthy of competitive specialties is much higher for a DO.
 
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AnatomyGrey12 said:
And this right here is huge and is the biggest difference between the two degrees in general. Do some DO students put together great apps? yes. Are the resources readily accessible for DO students? Definitely not. The effort threshold needed to overcome this and put together an app worthy of competitive specialties is much higher for a DO.
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As long as theres the opportunity no matter how hard is good enough for me.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
depends on what opportunity you are looking for. Some opportunities you will have to create on your own.
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I mean it makes complete sense osteopathic schools don’t provide these opportunities, they push for primary care. My main thing with this merger is if I end up taking the DO path I want to be able to be viewed the same as an MD candidate with the same achievements by a PD
 
Adrenaline Junky said:
I mean it makes complete sense osteopathic schools don’t provide these opportunities, they push for primary care. My main thing with this merger is if I end up taking the DO path I want to be able to be viewed the same as an MD candidate with the same achievements by a PD
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Depends on specialty goals but honestly for the time being most likely not. If you want something super competitive go MD. DOs can do most anything but its an uphill battle unless you're doing some of the lower competitive specialties.

Also, while SDN claims to know whats going to happen, nobody really does. We'll see. Bias is real for now, but i feel like that will fade as ACGME PDs realize all DO students aren't coming from substandard education systems (not saying some of the new schools aren't bad though, but I have no direct experience)
 
Chibucks15 said:
Depends on specialty goals but honestly for the time being most likely not. If you want something super competitive go MD. DOs can do most anything but its an uphill battle unless you're doing some of the lower competitive specialties.

Also, while SDN claims to know whats going to happen, nobody really does. We'll see. Bias is real for now, but i feel like that will fade as ACGME PDs realize all DO students aren't coming from substandard education systems (not saying some of the new schools aren't bad though, but I have no direct experience)
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I will hopefully be anywhere from class of 2025-2027 so fingers crossed they realize before then :D
 
Chibucks15 said:
Also, while SDN claims to know whats going to happen, nobody really does. We'll see. Bias is real for now, but i feel like that will fade as ACGME PDs realize all DO students aren't coming from substandard education systems (not saying some of the new schools aren't bad though, but I have no direct experience)
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Honestly I’ve read anything from DOs will be fine post merger to DO is the new Caribbean. With SDN you never know
 
Adrenaline Junky said:
Honestly I’ve read anything from DOs will be fine post merger to DO is the new Caribbean. With SDN you never know
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Exactly. On SDN the sky is always falling. But honestly there just isn't a way that DO is the new carribean. There's too many residency slots for that to happen...if anyone is squeezed out in my opinion it will be Caribbean and some FMGs, obviously excluding the rockstars that come over from India, etc
 
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Adrenaline Junky said:
is if I end up taking the DO path I want to be able to be viewed the same as an MD candidate with the same achievements by a PD
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This will likely never happen honestly and going to a DO school expecting as such is foolish.
 
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Chibucks15 said:
Exactly. On SDN the sky is always falling. But honestly there just isn't a way that DO is the new carribean. There's too many residency slots for that to happen...if anyone is squeezed out in my opinion it will be Caribbean and some FMGs, obviously excluding the rockstars that come over from India, etc
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It wouldn’t make any sense to squeeze out US MD and DO candidates. The logical thing would be IMG and Carribean. US residencies should go to US graduates.
 
Adrenaline Junky said:
It wouldn’t make any sense to squeeze out US MD and DO candidates. The logical thing would be IMG and Carribean. US residencies should go to US graduates.
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Welcome to SDN you already have the main arguments down haha now take a stance on MD vs DO and NP encroachment, and you're a full fledged member. Best of luck applying
 
Chibucks15 said:
Welcome to SDN you already have the main arguments down haha now take a stance on MD vs DO and NP encroachment, and you're a full fledged member. Best of luck applying
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NP encroachment? And thank you I will need it!
 
Adrenaline Junky said:
In the end you’re right, instead of matching the MDs we’ll just have to outperform them. :laugh:
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Everyone should go into this endeavor with their eyes open that primary care is a real possibility. Mds and DOs.
 
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libertyyne said:
Everyone should go into this endeavor with their eyes open that primary care is a real possibility. Mds and DOs.
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Absolutely nothing wrong with primary care. If I am fortunate enough to gain admission to a program, I am going for what I love, not whay compensates me the most.
 
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